BS: Cage fighting (kids)

Subject: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Sep 11 - 03:12 PM

And I thought our society had sunk about as low as it could, but no, tonight on BBC TV NEWS they showed footage of eight year old boys cage fighting in front of a paying audience in Preston Lancashire.

It was about the most obscene thing that I have ever witnessed, the parents of these children should certainly be jailed for abuse and the audience should be traced and fined.

What the fuck are we doing to our children? We seem to be turning into monsters.

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 21 Sep 11 - 03:28 PM

"Cage fighting" is a new concept to me. Wikipedia redirects to an article called "Mixed Martial Arts" and it never defines "cage fighting."

Can you describe it? Do the kids wear boxing gloves or any other protection? Are there any rules? (I can't imagine 8-year-olds being very good at following rules, though.) Are there referees?

Regardless, I don't think it's anything I would want a kid of mine participating in.

My son was interested in karate when he was younger, and I think it was good for him, but it wasn't serious combat.

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Sep 11 - 03:31 PM

Its child porn for psychopaths.

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: Wesley S
Date: 21 Sep 11 - 03:35 PM

I'm guessing it's all about the money.

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Sep 11 - 03:38 PM

Sadly I fear you are correct Wesley.

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Sep 11 - 03:46 PM

Cage fighting kids

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 21 Sep 11 - 03:53 PM

In "classic" cage fighting, two (or sometimes more) opponents are "locked" inside a cage. Whoever is the last (only) one able to walk out is the winner. Some versions give a few rules, largely ignored by contestants; but in the usual (adult) kind it's "to incapacitation" with virtually no rules.

Unlike Roman gladiators, weapons usually are omitted although not always.

More like cock-fits or dog-fights with kids(?).

John

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 21 Sep 11 - 04:08 PM

Thanks for the link.

"Greenlands Labour Club" - surely that doesn't mean "Labour Party" does it? If so, I'm doubly shocked.

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: gnu
Date: 21 Sep 11 - 04:09 PM

Just plain sick.

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Sep 11 - 07:18 PM

The whole thing is sick and stupid, whether it's adults or children (but especially children). A real fight is over in a few seconds, with blood and eyeballs on the floor and someone dead or grievously hurt.

There are a number of questions here, not the least of which is that of TBI.

I am currently reading "On Killing" by David Grossman (LTC, ret., ex-professor of history at West Point, and creditials both military and academic a mile long). In it he makes some DAMNED GOOD points about how we desensitize our children to violence. I completely and without reserve recommend this book. (Oh, yeah -- it's on the USMC Commandant's required reading list for offficers, among other things.) It'll make you think.

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: gnu
Date: 21 Sep 11 - 09:28 PM

"... desensitize our children to violence"

Ain't THAT the truth! Again, sickening!

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: GUEST,Ebbie
Date: 21 Sep 11 - 10:34 PM

Wonder if it's legal in the US? We don't allow cockfights or pitbull fights- it must be great fun to watch one's child beat another or to get beaten himself.

Advice in the car, going home: Next time, Timmy, when you hit him good, crowd him and make him back up step by step. Just keep punching. See if you can make him cry.

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Sep 11 - 10:43 PM

There's kids that age carrying guns in some African countries.

Seems the UK has glorified the idiots who while not able to actually play the game of soccer themselves are more than willing to have a few beers and beat the shit out of each other. It makes the news on the i'net, the television and print media. I don't understand why the present situation shocks people. WTF did we all expect?

YMMV, but will the organizers of these events do a day in jail? Will the parents who may or may not know where their kids are face any penalties? Will the audiences? In the words of Dylan,

Who Killed Davey Moore?

Who killed Davey Moore
Why an' what's the reason for?

"Not I," says the referee
"Don't point your finger at me
I could've stopped it in the eighth
An' maybe kept him from his fate
But the crowd would've booed, I'm sure
At not gettin' their money's worth
It's too bad he had to go
But there was a pressure on me too, you know
It wasn't me that made him fall
No, you can't blame me at all"

Who killed Davey Moore
Why an' what's the reason for?

"Not us," says the angry crowd
Whose screams filled the arena loud
"It's too bad he died that night
But we just like to see a fight
We didn't mean for him t' meet his death
We just meant to see some sweat
There ain't nothing wrong in that
It wasn't us that made him fall
No, you can't blame us at all"

Who killed Davey Moore
Why an' what's the reason for?

"Not me," says his manager
Puffing on a big cigar
"It's hard to say, it's hard to tell
I always thought that he was well
It's too bad for his wife an' kids he's dead
But if he was sick, he should've said
It wasn't me that made him fall
No, you can't blame me at all"

Who killed Davey Moore
Why an' what's the reason for?

"Not me," says the gambling man
With his ticket stub still in his hand
"It wasn't me that knocked him down
My hands never touched him none
I didn't commit no ugly sin
Anyway, I put money on him to win
It wasn't me that made him fall
No, you can't blame me at all"

Who killed Davey Moore
Why an' what's the reason for?

"Not me," says the boxing writer
Pounding print on his old typewriter
Sayin', "Boxing ain't to blame
There's just as much danger in a football game"
Sayin', "Fistfighting is here to stay
It's just the old American way
It wasn't me that made him fall
No, you can't blame me at all"

Who killed Davey Moore
Why an' what's the reason for?

"Not me," says the man whose fists
Laid him low in a cloud of mist
Who came here from Cuba's door
Where boxing ain't allowed no more
"I hit him, yes, it's true
But that's what I am paid to do
Don't say 'murder,' don't say 'kill'
It was destiny, it was God's will"

Who killed Davey Moore
Why an' what's the reason for?

Copyright © 1964, 1965 by Warner Bros. Inc.; renewed 1992, 1993 by Special Rider Music

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 03:42 AM

Saw an interview with the parents of one 8 year old, they are morons, and determined to bring up their kids to be the same.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: johncharles
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 03:58 AM

Feckless parents raising another feckless generation.

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 03:59 AM

"Seems the UK has glorified the idiots who while not able to actually play the game of soccer themselves are more than willing to have a few beers and beat the shit out of each other."

Wrong once again 999.

"The Idiots" (who are in fact a small minority) glorify themselves. The vast majority of UK citizens are appalled by "The Idiots". Unfortunately our forces of law and order, having been metaphorically emasculated by PC-Clown and European-numpty law-makers, who are more concerned with the rights of offenders than victims, find themselves unable or unwilling to deal with "The Idiots" in any effective way.

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 04:43 AM

I don't see that it's anything to do with PC-Clown or Euro-Numpty. No-one should want to go back to (or stay in, come to that) the days when PC Plod could fit up anyone they chose and often did.

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 04:51 AM

You're talking lefty bollocks again Richard.

Shouldn't a lawyer want to uphold the law at all times? Isn't that his or her function? If so, why are you so rabidly, mouth-frothingly anti-law-and-order?

No-one doubts (well, I don't) that there have been miscarriages of justice brought about, in part at least, by inappropriate police methods. But to suggest, as you seem to be doing, that the police are less trustworthy than the criminal fraternity is drivel, pure and simple.

A lawyer with a log on his shoulder, let alone a chip, is as unpleasant a spectacle as a bent copper.

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: banjoman
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 05:23 AM

I was more shocked by the interview with the parents who said something like - If thats what he wants to do then thats OK with us -They should be locked away for the protection of their children. Just what is the law on parental disciplene?

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 05:37 AM

Yep, to get back on-track with the thread, the parents are morons - the same kind of morons who fight each other on the touchline at kid's football matches over some imagined 'foul' by one of their spawn, and who buy tiny motorbikes with deafening exhausts, for their underage kids to race around neighbourhood footpaths on, untaxed and uninsured. The same kind of morons who think it's good fun to watch a couple of Staffies trying to rip each others' throats out. Morons.

If the parents agenuinely want their kids to learn self-defence and get some exercise at the same time, there are plenty of genuine martial arts clubs, properly run and subject to regulation by national organisations, where the kids could go. I fear that the publicity over this appalling spectacle may adversely affect them too. Let's hope it doesn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 05:51 AM

The most sickening part of all is that this happened in a Labour club! I remember a time when the Labour Party was dedicated to improving the lives of suffering people and to eliminating cruelty and child exploitation. Jesus, God! I never thought things could sink to this level.

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 06:01 AM

"The vast majority of UK citizens are appalled by "The Idiots"."

Then why have you done nothing!

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 06:04 AM

What would you suggest?

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 06:14 AM

I would suggest you tell what you have done about it so far.

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 06:24 AM

You seem to know all the answers... after you, sir.

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 06:46 AM

This doesn't surprise me when you see the kind of things some parents PUSH their children to do ~ very young children put under all the stress of being beauty queens, children pushed to stardom at a young age, etc. (I am talking about the EXTREME cases here ~ not parents who encourage their child's talents); it's all a form of child abuse as far as I am concerned.
In the UK we have laws about the age children can be in pubs, the age they can watch certain videos etc. These children were put in this situation by their parents, in the midst of an ADULT evening ~ drinking, adult cage fighting going on .... the parents of these children knew exactly where their children were. They put the children in a situation where they were on show, trapped in a cage like a couple of fighting cocks; it was an adult evening and the children should not even have been present, let alone taking part. Goodness knows the damage this kind of thing does .... it is WRONG.
The social services/police should be dealing with this but I doubt from what I have read so far that anything will be done!

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 07:10 AM

"Then why have you done nothing!"

Because the news only got out last night. Personally I hope the judiciary throws the book at the organisers and the parents, and the gobshites who paid to see this revolting spectacle, and the club licensee for allowing it on his premises.

If that doesn't happen then I for one will be campaigning for a change in the law. And I'll be lobbying my LABOUR MP to make sure that nothing like that is ever allowed in a Labour club ever again.

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 07:11 AM

I'm shocked, appalled and angry. How CAN the powers-that-be accept this kind of thing without taking instant action? Wickedly cruel.

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 07:17 AM

It was the most obsene thing I've seen for a long time and the mind boggles at the kind of audience that it appeals to that attend these matches. Are the fights announced by word of mouth? Do the nearby schools know this is going on?

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 07:42 AM

Fred, I read the All-Seeing-All-Knowing-999's comment "Then why have you done nothing" as being in reference to football hooliganism, not the Cage-Fighting issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 08:16 AM

I am, Backwoodsman, all in favour of justice. It seems you want a police state. There are numerous well documented instances of PC Plod fitting people up, and those given the task of enforcing the criminal law should not be breaking it or indeed undermining the rule of law. Now, you were saying that the reasons that football hooligans were not arrested and charged was down to PC-Clown or Euro-Numpty influence. Have you any rational basis for that or have you been reading the Daily Mail again?

My immediate reaction to this news about cage fighting is that I would be surprised if it were lawful and if it were not grounds for social workers to intervene in the upbringing of the children in question - but you dislike social workers as part of the nanny-pc-state, don't you, so precisely what do you think should be the response of the state?

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 08:42 AM

All this tosh about Labour?

Which Labour do you support then, the Islington socialists or the Scargill style cock fighters?

Thinking on. As sickening as the idea is, they claim this is grapple which does not accord with the punch & kick concerns of the BMA. So.... I find myself wondering what the fascination is. As looking at child porn is classed as paedophilia, what does watching them wrestling in cages get classed as then?

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 08:46 AM

It was about the most obscene thing that I have ever witnessed

Not half as obscene as adults - who should know better - doing the same thing.

And yes, Ebbie, Human Cockfights are legal in the U.S. (I think that's where this idiocy originated) & in more states every day. "Adults" (and I use the term loosely) only at this point, but kids probably not far behind.

All part of the U.S. "sports"[sic] culture that pays adults obscene amounts of money to play childrens' games.

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 08:59 AM

I never read the Daily Mail, Richard. Nor the Telegraph, nor the Express.

You see, you can't resist insulting the police, can you? "PC Plod", a quite intentional insult to a group of men and women doing a very difficult, often dangerous, job under the intense scrutiny of the media and politicians, and date I say it, doing it for peanuts in comparison with the sums that lawyers demand for defending the indefensible.

Improper behaviour goes on in all walks of life, including in every arm of law-enforcement. So why single out the small minority of bent coppers for the sharp edge of your tongue? Has there never been a bent lawyer, Richard? Or, for that matter, has a lawyer never defended and got a 'not guilty' sentence for someone whom he knows perfectly well is as guilty as sin, and been rewarded very handsomely indeed for it? Is that not just as offensive to the victim as "fitting-up" is an offence against an innocent accusee?

People in Glasshouses, Richard.

The police are in a "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation where many issues are concerned, and it must be soul-destroying in the extreme when they find themselves in the position where offenders whom they present to the court system are given the lightest possible sentences - the proverbial 'Slap On The Wrist' (and don't deny that it happens - unless you really do live on The Planet Zog, you're very well aware that it does - frequently).

FWIW, I believe that, if the Cage-fighting is declared illegal, I believe that the parents of the children involved should feel the full weight of the law. If it's not illegal, I believe there's a strong argument that, at the very least, it shows a lack of judgment bordering on neglect on the part of the parents, and Social Service agents should take whatever steps are at their disposal to remove the children concerned from that position of neglect.

I'm not anti-victim, Richard, I'm 100% on the victim's side every time. But I'm absolutely anti-offender.

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 09:12 AM

FFS!
dare I say it!
a 'not guilty' verdict!

Bloody old age, aaarrrgghh!

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 09:13 AM

I've just watched the lunch time news here in northwest England. Seems the Culture Secretary is sickened by the spectacle. Good.

However, Lancashire Police say there are no issues they can pursue in this case. Right. Well if the spectacle of children fighting in cages doesn't break any laws at present, then we need a law that it does, or would, break.

Also, the reporter interviewed the father of one of these children. This moronic creep said that if his son wasn't cage fighting he'd be hanging round the streets causing trouble!!!!

Yes that's right. An eight year old hanging round the streets causing trouble and his father thinks the only alternative is a life of violence inside a cage.

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 10:10 AM

I saw one of the mothers on video saying it was just grappling. Grappling, my foot ~ cage fighting is brutal. Also the parents are missing a lot of points including the point that this just is not an appropriate activity or environment for children.

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 10:16 AM

My brothers and I used to fight all the time when we were that age. My mother would break it up before we broke something and make us glare at each other across a table. Eventually we'd both start to giggle and laugh.

THAT fighting wasn't serious and more like cubs "rasseling" for fun. If my mother had been offered money to allow other adults to watch she would have had them up on some charges or other. Child abuse, if nothing else.

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 10:26 AM

Further up the thread Raparee wrote:

"I am currently reading "On Killing" by David Grossman (LTC, ret., ex-professor of history at West Point, and creditials both military and academic a mile long). In it he makes some DAMNED GOOD points about how we desensitize our children to violence."

A few weeks ago I saw a TV programme about British soldiers serving in Afghanistan (please note: I am not trying to make any points about the 'rights and wrongs' of that war here).

They interviewed a mother of one of the soldiers and told us, with a fond smile, about how he had always been "interested in guns" and how he had always asked for toy guns for his birthday and at Christmas and how it was inevitable that he would one day join the army (where, presumably, he could get to 'play' with 'real' guns).

This lad was subsequently killed in Kandahar province and his mother was, very naturally, distraught. I probably could not have brought myself to remind her that guns are designed solely to kill people with - particularly military weapons. Perhaps if someone had reminded her of that fact, before her son went off to war, she wouldn't now be grieving over his loss ...

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: GUEST,Emberto Uco
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 10:47 AM

This is so wrong and should be stopped.

What we really want to see is OAPs cage fighting !!!

just on the evidence of this 'debate', seems there's a fair few old mudcatters ready and itching to get it on in the cage together.

Round one...



BTW.. but nice upper middle class Rugby for 8 year olds is ok then ?

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: GUEST,Embero Uco
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 11:12 AM

.. and Boxing in Boarding schools ..???

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 11:15 AM

"I read the All-Seeing-All-Knowing-999's ..."

No need to be so nasty old boy. You drip condescension and there's simply no need for it. Behave yourself. It's NOT becoming.

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 11:22 AM

If you don't want me to fire the gun, old fruit, old bean, don't provide me with the ammunition! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 11:45 AM

Problem is media bating these arguments again.

Pitting children without protective gear against each other purely for adult entertainment is pornography. This activity bears no resemblance to real martial arts training and competitions where professionals train the kids and manage the programme according to specific guidelines.

As to PCs all being thugs, again the media has highlighted a few and naturally all are tarred with same brush. This is not fair. It is sad that police forces because of pinched financial resources have to cut corners on training and selection. This is not the force's fault but is it likely to mean that there will be more thuggish behaviour seen in police.

I am not going to enter into discussions about police mob control that appears to have a history of being very poor. Again it requires the proper intervention and resources.

Remembering the TUC March in London, the police were friendly, helpful and the two I talked to were in full agreement with the reasons for the March.

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 12:59 PM

Maybe those fat head no 'count cretins should be sentenced to going back into the trees from whence they came. They will have to evolve to become apes.

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 01:26 PM

Did not mean pornography in my post above. Brain fuddled with RA and RA meds. I meant exploitation.

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 02:08 PM

I would be surprised if there was much boxing in any schools today. I'm pretty sure my old prep school doesn't do it, and my public school didn't even when I was there. But there are rules and in youth boxing protective gear is worn, etc etc.

Rugger is different - the objective is not to maim the opponent - although it often looks like that! Curiously I think serious injury is rarer in rugger (now that tackling at the knee is not the norm) than in association football which is hell on ankles and knees.

Now back to Backwoodsman. A relative of mine married a plod not long ago, one of the posh ones a "high flyer" from Hendon, and his mates at the wedding, all other posh plods, seemed frankly rather less palatable than rugger buggers, with a very blokish uncouth attitude. Dixon of Dock Green is rare. Yes, they have an unenviable position walking the tightrope between not doing enough and doing too much, but that is no excuse for the sort of thing that we know was endemic in the Met a few years back.

There again I've hardly ever met anyone who opted to joint the military who didn't seem to have the same sort of attitude that force is more to be enjoyed than reserved until absolute necessity, although the RAF seem less like that.

You won't find me defending any bent lawyers. It is professionally improper knowingly to assist ones client to advance an untruth, and indeed I am right now working on a dossier on a partner in one of the big TLA lawfirms with a view to reporting him to the Solicitors Regulation Authority. However, although standards are not what they were, bad apple lawyers are I think in the UK very much rarer than in other professions.

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 03:28 PM

Shimrod, please read the book.

What I wrote is only one point. The thrust of the book is to examine, under the lights of psychology and other disciplines, the act of killing itself. Not death's effect on others, not youthful interest in guns, not the psychology of a psychopathic murderer, but how the socially sanctioned act of killing another human being in war affect the killer.

For instance, the author makes a very strong case that many soldiers -- consciously or unconsciously -- shoot to miss.

But you really have to read the book.

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 03:32 PM

Surely the crux of the matter is that there was a paying audience to watch the exploitation of eight year old boys.
A disgusting scenario, all things considered.

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 09:48 PM

It most certainly is. It appears to me to be child abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Sep 11 - 05:29 AM

Richard, I understand your point about lawyers - in truth I only dropped that in to make the point that there are bastards in any and every occupation - and I don't disagree.

You and I will never agree about the police. If you worked in that environment, I'm pretty sure that you would quickly adopt the same 'blokish' attitudes, it's a way of coping with pressures that civilians like you and I thankfully don't find ourselves subjected to (very much like the Firefighters' 'Black' humour when they attend a fatal fire incident, or have to recover, e.g., a corpse from a river.

I understand and fully agree with your dislike of bent coppers but, being related to a cop (formerly UK, now Canada), and having seen the effect on him that having to pick up pieces of the four teenagers who had just been killed in an RTA, and then go round to their homes and explain to their families what had happened, then accompany them to the mortuary for identification, or on another occasion, being the first officer on the scene where a woman and her lover had just axed the woman's partner to death, I find your unpleasant, scornful attitude towards the police in general beneath contempt.

However, we're both adults, and I don't have the time or energy to argue any further. AFAIC, I'm right, you're wrong, period. Let's do the adult thing and agree to disagree.

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Sep 11 - 06:35 AM

We have drifted up to a point from the main theme of the thread - as we all seem to agree on the iniquity of the occasion perhaps there is no need to multiply agreements at that.

But, re the police: I agree with BWM that their blokishness is explicable in the nature of their work, and think, on the whole, we have much to thank them for.

But there is, I believe, one minor abuse they commit regularly in which they bend the law a bit. They are legally forbidden to carry out random breath tests, but must have some reason to stop motorists that they think might have been drinking. Whatever the rights & wrongs of that, I am convinced they bend the law, as I say, by inventing such reasons. I fell victim to this the other night - not that I was much victimised as I don't drink, but if I had had one or two as many might have done...

It was a pissing-with-rain night about 2230, visibility was dire, my windscreen much misted and hard to clear, and I had several roundabouts to negotiate driving out of Bury St Edmunds, where I had to slow down a bit to read the hard-to-discern signs to ensure I was taking the right exit. A few miles along the A14, I got flashed from behind by a police vehicle and stopped. A policewoman asked me to turn off the engine; then said that they had been struck by my 'erratic driving' through the town. I explained why it might have appeared so, as above. Had I had anything to drink? No, I replied truthfully, I don't drink. She admitted she could smell no drink on my breath; but still insisted on examining my licence ~~ why? In hope, perhaps, that I shouldn't have it with me and should have to go to all the inconvenience of producing it at a police station within 4 days. Well, she was frustrated in that. And in, what I am convinced was her main purpose, finding a drunk driver by what was, to all intents and purposes, a RANDOM breath test which she had hoped to find grounds to administer if there had been any smell of alcohol on my breath, by, I repeat, INVENTING a reason to stop me, & persisting with enquiries even when I had demonstrated those 'reasons', adducing the weather & visibility conditions above which I explained to her, to be groundless.

I don't think the police should bend the law by 'trawling' like this by stopping vehicles on suspect grounds in order to inflate their drunk-driving conviction rate; as, I repeat, I strongly suspect to be their common practice.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Sep 11 - 06:53 AM

I'm much more concerned about those fitted up for things they haven't done. I don't agree with random breath tests, but a breath test won't lead to the conviction of anyone who wasn't drinking. However a justified refusal to blow (ie if there was no legitimate cause to administer) will usually lead both to disqualification and impediments to recovery of the licence and that is wrong. But fitting someone up for a burglary or assault or riotous assembly (as happened many many times in the miners' strike) is something really serious - and it was done systematically as part of the police function.

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 23 Sep 11 - 04:50 PM

As it happens I live only 16 miles away from where is event took place.
A number of people have pointed out, that if these kids were dressed in judo gear and fighting on a mat in sports hall not many people would have issues with it.
But what's upset people in the UK is the setting, and the suggestion of a "baying" audience.

I must admit that I love MMA ( mixed martial arts) and on Saturday night one of the sports superstars Jon "Bones" Jones is fighting.
He's not exactly a house-hold name yet, but if he carries on winning in such a spectacular style he could turn out to be a world superstar.

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 03:04 PM

The father of one of the children said if his son wasn't doing this, he'd be 'hanging around on a street corner causing chaos'.

He doesn't deserve to be a father. He doesn't deserve to have a child.

A child is a privilege, not a right.


However, bloody awful though this was, I'm more shocked at young chldren dressing as tarts, at older children behaving like tarts, and of young people spilling up their souls on our City pavements almost every night, for every night is party night..

As far as what I've been doing about it, well, I've been shouting out about it for years, phoning folks up, trying to get the message out there in whatever way I was/am able, but I was silenced by folks within England herself, who told me over and over that NONE of this was happening and I was imagining it....

Soooooooooooo...if they now find their own children/grandchildren are amongst the messed up, muddled up, fucking and fucked up kids on British streets these days, maybe they'll look back a few years and think that maybe, just maybe, instead of working so damned hard to get my voice silenced, to get me banned, they should have damn well stood beside me, joined me and tried to get the BBC and others to listen...

And now, back to Fooked Up Britain...and her Merry Bunch of Children for whom I've been trying to fight so hard, for so long...

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: GUEST,Spudsey
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 03:58 PM

As brutal as it may seem, at least it's more dignified and authentic than modern junior Irish Dance Competitions.

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: Lox
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 04:18 PM

In boxing you wear headgear and gloves because they hit each other.

In the kids MMA competition, they weren't hitting each other.

So no need for headgear or gloves.

What were they doing?

They were competing in brazilian junior ju jitsu.


What does this involve?

Grappling, throwing and restraining.

Just like Judo, or american school wrestling.


And responsible for *significantly* less injuries in both kids and adults than rugby or American football.

The only reason this is a scandal is that the press have reported it as "CAGE fighting" which we all associate with 'fight club' and bare knuckle boxing in seedy basements.


This view of these events only exists in the imagination however.


It was a kids martial arts competition - these are the facts - they happen all the time - get over it.

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 04:47 PM

In the license conditions for the Greenlands Labour Club where this took place there is also a condition that children should not be on the premises at public events after 6pm. It is quite rightly being looked into.

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 05:05 PM

Is anyone surprised that kids ( and parents who's menality is like those kids ) go in for this sort of thing when these people are what they have as role models?

OK - We know it ain't real. But we are grown ups. Aren't we? As long as winning at all costs, using whatever means there is to disable opponents and glorifying these idiots is acceptable to on mass media, then why do we expect those who know no better to behave in different ways?

Fighting makes money. Winning is better. Come on, lie, cheat, steal, kill. Who cares - they do it...

Sigh.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: Lox
Date: 25 Sep 11 - 10:23 AM

"this sort of thing"

What sort of thing?

The sort of thing in the publics fevered imagination?

Or the sort of thing that actually happened.


Myths that need busting.

1. Myth - This is the product of a 'win at all costs' society.

Fact - there was no 'winner' in this exhibition - the ref held both boys hands up at the end.

2. Myth - MMA is unregulated, savage and anything goes.

Fact - the ref is an experienced MMA ref, there was a medic on hand, and there are very specific rules. The kids were not permitted to hit each other, and the techniques they used were not dangerous, being all about balance and control of the opponents centre of gravity.

3. Myth - MMA is undisciplined brawling

Fact - MMA is extremely disciplined - it has evolved over the last 20 years or so mainly into a mixture of Thai boxing, Brazilian Ju Jitsu and Greco Roman wrestling - the standard of training and discipline are extremely high, and as anyone who has ever done any brazilian ju jitsu knows, indiscipline, machismo and anger are extremely counter productive to a competitor.

There has been talk of a "baying crowd" - You mean the audience were cheering? ...At a sporting event? ... shock horror ...


Ronnie Drew once said "never let the truth get in the way of a good story".

This isn't a good story though - it has turned into a one sided chav bashing thread.


People keep saying "where were the police" - "why aren't social services taking these children into care" - "this is child abuse".

Clearly the police and social services are better informed than posters here as they haven't seen evidence of a problem that warrants intervention.


It was a Ju Jitsu competition involving non dangerous techniques in a packed venue.


The risk of injury to the children was significantly less than the risks in a game of rugby (at which baying crowds often encourage the kids to deliver hard tackles).


If someone can find an actual valid difference between this and a judo competition or boxing competition, please post it. Until then, all I have read here has been fantasy and hysteria.

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Sep 11 - 10:37 AM

···Ronnie Drew once said "never let the truth get in the way of a good story".···

Well well, how astoundingly original of him. Did he also once assert that the question was whether to be or not to be, or that tomorrow is another day, or that the race was not always to the swift, or that it was a wise man who knew his own father, or that too many cooks spoilt the broth, or that it was wise to look before one leapt, or ...?

Pearls of wisdom, eh? And all down to Ronnie!

Cor!

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: Lox
Date: 25 Sep 11 - 10:46 AM

Original they may not have been, yet they remain more useful to this thread and indeed wittier than the inconsequential puff of smoke that they have apparently elicited here.

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Sep 11 - 12:04 PM

If someone can find an actual valid difference between this and a judo competition or boxing competition, please post it.

I am pretty sure that the ABA or the British Judo Association would not let boys of 8 fight for the gratification of a paying adult audience. Would they?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: Lox
Date: 25 Sep 11 - 12:25 PM

This is the only debatable part of it Dave.

In terms of the money paid for tickets, that goes to the professional competitors at the top of the bill.

In terms of the experience of the kids, they compete under the same safety conditions, and according to the same rules as they would in any other context, but they compete as part of a warm up for a professional tournament.

I grew up in Hing Kong, where we hosted the annual Hong Kong sevens.

This featured the All Blacks, Australians, Fijians etc, playing full contact rugby, sometimes with some horrible injuries and fighting involved.

It also featured kids warm up matches for different age groups - the ultimate experience for a young kid of 6, 8 or 12 - playing in front of "baying" crowd of 30,000 or so fans, most of whom were (as tradition dictated) downing jugs galore of San Miguel or Carlsberg, and most of whom had paid exorbitant amounts of money for their tickets.

Its important to get the jean claude vab damme movie image of unrestrained carnage out of our heads before we pass judgement on these events.

Its important to judge these events according to what they actually were and what actually happened and not to be suckered by the 'outrage' of our ever so reliable media.

The only legally and ethically questionable aspect of these events would be the matter of whether the kids were allowed to stay and watch the professional fights afterwards, though judging by the police response, no laws of any kind were broken, so we have no reason to believe they did.

All we know id that two kids competed in a legitimate and carefully regulated sport before an audience.

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: fat B****rd
Date: 25 Sep 11 - 02:56 PM

Is the majority of criticism levelled at the audience ?

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: Lox
Date: 25 Sep 11 - 03:06 PM

Any comment about the audience is meaningless as we have no indication of how they behaved, except that a journalist described them as 'Baying', and prose doesn't stand as factual testimony.

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Sep 11 - 03:35 PM

Well, I'm not going to labour the point over something that I am not involved in or did not see, but I do find that argument that because it happened elsewhere, it should be allowed to happen here somewhat spurious. Cock fights used to happen. Bull baiting used to happen. Gladitorial contests were, at times, to the death. It did not stop them from being wrong. I think this was equaly wrong.

I am more than happy with grown men, or women for that matter, to fight to the death if they so chose. But children need protection. If it is OK for them to fight to gratify someone elses tastes that surely they should be allowed to do many other things. Where do we draw the line. I don't know for certain but, personaly, I feel that 8 is too young.

BTW - I am a Tai Chi practitioner and teacher. I have been involved in other sides of martial arts for many years so I know thet the film industry has a lot to answer for. Not the least of which is leading people to believe that might is right.

Last word on the subject.

Honest!

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: Lox
Date: 25 Sep 11 - 05:24 PM

Yes Dave,

And war Happens, and murder, and theft, but none of those things has any more in common with a kids martial arts contest than your examples of cock fighting, or gladitorial combat.

If these kids were knocking each other out, or breaking each others limbs, or choking each other unconscious, and if there were no referee scrutinizing their every move, and if they gouged or bit each other, then your comparisons might be useful.

Even if these kids were untrained and just settling a grudge, or if they had been forced into it, then that too would be very worrying.

But none of those things happened. It was a legitimate, regulated, carefully scrutinized, and medically fully supported wrestling competition between two kids who were well trained in Ju Jitsu Techniques.

T'ai Chi is a different thing - and experience in T'ai chi does not inform the practitioner about how Ju Jitsu competitions work.

I have taken part in more Ju Jitsu sparring matches than i can remember.

I have never been hit, nor injured in any way. I have beeen challenged both physically and intellectually as it is a very intricate sport. I put my heart and soul into every bout I participated in, yet my opponents were people i laughed with before the match and afterwards with no trace of malice or machismo.

We are given a snapshot by the media, and then a heavily biased media interpretation and somehow we are in a position too call the parents and the kids morons.

To me, the dad being interviewed and his son just looked mystified as to what the hullabaloo was all about.

As he said, there was no hitting, its more like a wrestling match.

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Sep 11 - 05:38 PM

Having been personally acquainted with Dan Hardy I have a different view of cage fighting.

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: Lox
Date: 25 Sep 11 - 06:27 PM

Dan Hardy is a professional and an adult. What he does simply doesn't compare.

People need to to stop lining up straw men, and need to face the actual event being dscussed.

Noone is being asked to enjoy professional MMA, or to think Dan Hardy is a nice guy.

But if people are going to line up to accuse parents of tacit complicity in child abuse then they should be able to demonstrate their point, not with references to professional boxers or wrestlers, not with references to illegal bare knuckle boxing, not with references to cock fighting or bear baiting, but with reference to the facts of the event under scrutiny.

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Sep 11 - 09:16 PM

So much for "civil"ization...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Sep 11 - 10:19 PM

Lesson learned - keep a stiff upper lip.

It is doubtful the US will rescue the Frogs and the Brits another time.

Buckle Up...Get Tough...Take a blow to the jaw.

Without Sir Winston - and the US intervention - Quebeq would now be Germaniq.

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 01:29 AM

How about following excellent point made above by Eanjay, Lox? ~

"In the license conditions for the Greenlands Labour Club where this took place there is also a condition that children should not be on the premises at public events after 6pm."

You don't seem to have taken that on board or responded to it.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 03:19 AM

To me it seemed to be the famous 15 minutes of fame for two very young children...encouraged by moronic parents...before an X factor audience of perverts.

Violence or bullying is not, thankfully, in my nature.

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: Howard Jones
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 11:06 AM

I find myself largely agreeing with Lox. The martial arts, whether eastern or western, have long been recognised as instilling discipline and self-confidence in children and curbing aggressive behaviour rather than encouraging it. All around the country young children are taking part in boxing, judo, karate and other martial arts without even the Daily Mail objecting.

I do however have reservations about the circumstances of this particular match. It did not take place in a gym or dojo but as part of an evening of adult cage fighting, which appears to me to be a far more dubious activity than mainstream martial arts (although I have to admit I only know what I've seen in the papers).

As for whether there may have been a technical breach of the venue's licence, I don't think even the Mail is concerned about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: Musket
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 11:30 AM

Just a bit of advice here.

Always bet on the fat kid.

All a matter of simple physics really. The object is grapple, or pinning your opponent down by the shoulder blades for a length of time. A fat kid has a lower centre of gravity than a thin kid and can use his weight to advantage, and once down stands more chance of pinning for the three seconds or whatever it is...

On a serious note, this does appall me, but at the same time, both my lads did karate and judo from a young age. I suppose I didn't let them in a cage in front of a load of drunken idiots screaming at them and waving wagers.

Silly old fashioned me.

Regarding children on the premises after a certain time, that applies to punters. Such rules (unless prescribed in law or licence requirement) don't apply to the "entertainment."

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 12:01 PM

I had no problem with my kids joining our local judo club. I welcomed it, from a personal development aspect, and I'd have had no problem with them joining a boxing club, a Tae-Kwon-Do club, a Karate club, or any club which taught a formal martial arts discipline, properly regulated by a national regulatory body.

However I would never allow my children to be debased by becoming the 'entertainment' for a bunch of half-pissed adults (perhaps even fully-pissed) and I'm shocked that some on here find nothing offensive about such a practice.

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: Lox
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 12:31 PM

"before an X factor audience of perverts."

Where does this information come from?

"in front of a load of drunken idiots screaming at them and waving wagers."

Again, according to what information?


"cage fighting, which appears to me to be a far more dubious activity than mainstream martial arts"

Again, this is just pure fantasy.

"Cage fighting" is nothing more than the popular terminology to describe Mixed Martial Arts.

MMA is already the most mainstream, popular and fastest growing combative sport in the UK and in the USA, both for participants and audiences and the one that kids want to learn as it has become simply the most effective form of hand to hand combat around.

It has developed into a distinct martial art form ever since the first proper Mixed martial arts tournaments of the early 1990's. These were designed so that martial artists could have the same chance as boxers to try out their skills and compete for prize money professionally and legitimately in a safe regulated environment not run by gangsters - in this respect, it is also the cleanest professional sport in the land as it is run by martial artists for martial artists.

Prior to these tournaments (UFC - Ultimate fighting championships), Martial artists were forced to compete either as amateurs within their own style, or in illegal bare knuckle fight dungeons.

MMA as a martial art form developed when practitioners realized that each martial art had its pros and cons.

Grapplers realized that they needed to be better versed in striking techniques, but more significantly, strikers realized that without wrestling or Ju Jitsu skills, they were impotent, as it is impossible to kick or punch with aany real power if you are locked in an embrace with your opponent on the ground.

For the first 4 years of UFC in a row, a comparatively small Brazilian called Royce Gracie, weighing around 180lbs and standing about 5'10", reigned undefeated in a competition with no weight categories.

He was a blackbelt in Brazilian Ju Jitsu and he beat the worlds best in every other Martial art from Tae Kwon Do and karate to Thai boxing and even Sumo.

"Always bet on the fat kid."

Wrong!

Rickson Gracie, Royces younger brother, is also around 180lbs, about 5' 9" tall and pretty wiry - he remains undefeated in around 360 matches against men of all sizes in all disciplines.

I used to train with the British Womens number 1 in around 2000. She is a doctor and stood about 5'2" and weighed about 120lbs and I watched her beat everyone she sparred with including numerous men twice her size without breaking a sweat.


For your information


The reason Cage fighting happens in a cage as opposed to a ring is simply that it is not safe to compete in mixed martial arts in a ring due to the likelihood of falls from ringside to the ground below.


MMA is the most heavily regulated and safest form or competitive sparring by a long way.

Unlike Boxing, or rugby, or American footbal, it has been responsible for NO fatalities.

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: Lox
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 12:38 PM

"I'd have had no problem with them joining a boxing club, a Tae-Kwon-Do club, a Karate club, or any club which taught a formal martial arts discipline, properly regulated by a national regulatory body."

This comment is another that tells us only 1 thing - that the writer doesn't know anything about MMA.

MMA is extremely highly regulated, and is likely to become an olympic sport, if not at the next olympics, then not long after.

When you talk about "formal" martial arts, you really mean TMA (traditional Martial arts)

The fact is that MMA is practised and taught by experts in TMA, who have studied more than one and have developed their own combination of styles - usually practitioners will have a second or third dan expertise in their preferred art, but they will also have a measure of expertise in a second and third too.

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: Lox
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 12:42 PM

"In the license conditions for the Greenlands Labour Club where this took place there is also a condition that children should not be on the premises at public events after 6pm."


So the labour club has an internal rule that children should not be at public events after 6.

Does this state what sort of events?

no.

Does it say anything about ethics or law that supports the cries of "child abuse" that have gone up here in recent days?

no.

It clarifies that THAT particular club does not allow children in after 6pm.

So the club that made that rule decided not to enforce that rule on this occasion.

.... and ..... ?

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: Lox
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 12:50 PM

I retract my comments about MMA and the olympics - this is unreliable information.

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 01:12 PM

Sorry to come back but I will stick to my 'no further word' - at least for the subject of the thread:-)

I just wanted to put one thing straight - Yes Tai Chi (Or Taiji if you prefer somerthing more authentic) is different to Jujitsu. The former is Chinese while the latter originated in Japan. The competitions can be very similar however. I find it ironic that someone would get on a high horse about people not understanding how Martial Arts work and then categoricaly state that "experience in T'ai chi does not inform the practitioner about how Ju Jitsu competitions work."

Look and Learn.

Still - I don't want to get too far from the point of the thread so, again, I will endevour to make this my last word.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: Lox
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 01:54 PM

Dave - Brazilian Ju Jitsu is not the same as Japanese Ju Jitsu.

It is 100% based on 'wrestling' techniques.

I trained in Japanese Ju Jitsu and in Brazilian Ju Jitsu so i know about both.

Brazilian Ju Jitsu competitions do not compare with push hands competitions.

Its like comparing tennis with swimming.

Your posting of that example merely confirms that you are not informed about Brazilian Ju Jitsu.

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 03:27 PM

I'm giving up on the last word bit. In fact, with a bit of luck, I just may get the last one before the thread is closed :-)

two kids who were well trained in Ju Jitsu Techniques.

does not inform the practitioner about how Ju Jitsu competitions work.

How did the Brazilian come in to it? No, hang fire there. I am probably better not knowing. Just as I am probably better off not knowing why grown men would pay money to watch two young boys wrestling in their shorts:-S

Quite true though. I do not know why people wax their genitals to roll about on the floor with each other. Why it should be a qualification to look after children is beyond me though...

DtG
Dirty Dan in Ecky Thump. Master of Llap Goch. Black (below the) Belt Topiarist.

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: Lox
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 03:55 PM

.



             @Dave       :-P



.

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: GUEST,Noddy
Date: 27 Sep 11 - 07:56 AM

Boxing
Karate
Kung Fu
Aikido
Wrestling
Judo
Kendo
Tai Chi

All should be banned as well!!!!!?

Its what kids do. Fight!

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Sep 11 - 01:35 PM

I think the issue may be that it is kids in a public exhibition that could be classed as somewhat seedy, Noddy. I'm not saying it is - Just that the point is not so much about cage fighting as children being exploited for someone elses gain..

Lovely, lovely comeback, Lox. And very Taiji if I may say so :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Sep 11 - 04:22 AM

Personally I'd like to see more titillating TV. Brazilian Ju Jitsu - performed by ladies with real Brazilians.

Cock fighting with real erect cocks. First one to go floppy is declared a knock out.

As for cage fighting kids, I'd keep the whole bloody family in a cage. Put Jeremy Kyle in as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: Musket
Date: 28 Sep 11 - 08:54 AM

Lox says the reason a cage is used rather than anything else is for the safety of the participants.

Really?

There was me thinking it was a gratuitous way of satisfying bloodlust of the idiots who get a stiffy from watching it, fantasising that the kid can't escape the punishment the other is inflicting.

Or at least, that's how cage fighting for older fighters with oiled up bodies is advertised on Sky "Sports."

I notice I was even corrected when I made a silly comment about the fat kid always winning. You weren't meant to take it seriously (!) Says it all really.

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: GUEST,spudsey
Date: 28 Sep 11 - 09:54 AM

strewth - this thread is bringing to light some deeply repressed prurient fantasies...!!??



I'm prepared to accept that a properly constructed wire walled 'cage'
with cushioned matting and perhaps even undersprung floor boards
is a potentially safer martial sports platform
than a traditional open roped ring.

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: GUEST,spudsey
Date: 28 Sep 11 - 10:10 AM

and as far as I can see there's been no mention here so far of organized pre-teens Kick Boxing matches
which I would consider more cause for genuine concern
regarding potential serious injuries to a child's young developing head & body ???

Subject: RE: BS: Cage fighting (kids)
From: Musket
Date: 28 Sep 11 - 11:25 AM

I agree, kick boxing is more of a problem for long term health. In fact, any sport which involves the brain bouncing around the skull of an undeveloped head is an issue. Hence the anomaly of bare knuckle boxing being less of a long term problem than gloves that make your whole head move around.

No, the issue here isn't the physical or medical concerns of the child, grappling to the ground is good exercise and helps with development as you mix your wits and your physical prowess.

The issue is people shouting at you, egging you on, putting you in a cage and all the rest of the physiological trauma children should and must be protected from. Brutalising them in this manner is an issue. Isn't it amazing that children in care are protected from such degrading antics yet when children are not in care, we wring our hands and say how bad it is but scratch our collective heads when considering child protection and safeguarding laws.