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BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution)
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Subject: Singing Troy Davis's spirit home From: Genie Date: 21 Sep 11 - 11:13 PM Choose your own song. This is a miscarriage of justice. But at least we can sing Troy Davis's spirit home. |
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Subject: RE: Singing Troy Davis's spirit home From: GUEST,ChanteyLass Date: 22 Sep 11 - 01:17 AM Thank you, Genie. I had been posting links to petitions from different organizations on Facebook. Just a few days ago I wondered if I should have started a thread about this on Mudcat's BS section to post links to those petitions. I did not recall seeing a thread about this but did not search for one. This afternoon I called 4 phone numbers in Georgia to plead for no execution. Of course I could not get through but thought that was a good sign because other people must have been tying up the phone lines. Troy was declared dead at 11:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time (US), and I am in mourning. I will try to sing. My love goes out to his spirit and his family. |
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Subject: Songs for Troy Davis (execution) From: Desert Dancer Date: 22 Sep 11 - 11:38 AM Songs For Troy Davis: Why Musicians Take On Death Row - an essay on NPR, with links to 3 YouTubes of songs. exerpted: "As Davis' situation became front-page news, I received notice of three very different songs about him: a hip-hop track by Jasiri X, "I Am Troy Davis," built around the slogan favored by Davis' supporters; the bluesy "Song for Troy Davis" by Nellie McKay and "State of Georgia," by the alternative rock band State Radio. These songs all advocate for Davis, but in different ways: The rap track samples the convict's own voice to encourage identification with his position. McKay's torchy ballad presents her as a lover, waiting for her man to be freed, connecting with historic voices of artists like Billie Holiday. State Radio's song offers vehement protest in the U2 tradition: It's a call to the streets." ... "It's not often that such stylistically divergent artists are drawn to the same topic at the same moment. Each got there a different way: State Radio, whose music is rooted in leftist activism, learned about Davis through its relationship with Amnesty International and has been addressing his situation in songs since 2009. Nellie McKay was spurred to write by a sense of urgency surrounding Davis' impending execution date. Jasiri X, like State Radio, often writes on political themes: One thing that's made his track, "I Am Troy Davis (T.R.O.Y.)," a favorite on hip-hop blogs is its deft use of a sample of the inmate's own recorded voice (another is its reliance on the beat from a classic track about family and the death of a friend by Pete Rock and CL Smooth, "They Reminisce Over You (T.R.O.Y.)"). Many other artists, from the Indigo Girls to Harry Belafonte and Big Boi, have lent their names to Davis' cause. But it was the range of these few musical responses that caught my ear." ... "Prison stories abound with the qualities that make up a good ballad. Focused on complex protagonists, with a vivid setting and a narrative arc that may lead to the ultimate happy or sad ending — freedom or execution — accounts of famous trials and their outcomes have inspired songwriters for centuries. Once they were just one aspect of the broadside tradition that made music of the news. But these days, we don't hear that many tales of soldiers or adventurers or even conventional murder ballads recounting the transgressions that land people in jail. It sometimes seems that prison has become the primary site of topical song. For some reason, its fascinations haven't faded." I recommend the whole article. ~ Becky in Tucson |
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Subject: RE: Songs for Troy Davis (execution) From: Cool Beans Date: 22 Sep 11 - 11:43 AM Thanks, Becky. My daughter was at the demonstration outside the prison last night. |
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Subject: BS: Troy Davis? From: Paul Burke Date: 22 Sep 11 - 12:52 PM I know it's an internal US matter, but has nobody over there got ANYTHING to say? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Troy Davis? From: GUEST,saulgoldie Date: 22 Sep 11 - 01:11 PM I find it horrible. But I have always been an opponent to the death penalty. It is inhumane, and the possibility for mistakes is huge. It is a colossal crime for the state to execute an innocent person. Saul |
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Subject: RE: BS: Troy Davis? From: katlaughing Date: 22 Sep 11 - 01:19 PM Thank you for starting this thread, Paul. There were a lot of us at change.org who did our best. I feel deeply saddened and disgusted that Georgia killed him. Today's email from change.org follows: The state of Georgia killed Troy Davis tonight. Despite so much doubt about Troy Davis's guilt -- including seven witnesses who changed or recanted their testimony, and three jurors who convicted Troy who later asked that his life be spared -- Georgia's parole board decided he should die. And so tonight at 11:08 Eastern Time, he was killed by lethal injection. His sister, Kim Davis, wanted to tell you what her brother said before he died: "When Troy saw that more than 250,000 Change.org members signed a petition that was delivered to the board in his name, he called to tell me he was deeply moved. He told me he knew that he had supporters around the world, but he had no idea that the support was that widespread." Kim has said that she'll keep fighting, for the next Troy Davis and the one after that. And she knows so many of us will join her in this fight. Troy Davis was not alone when he died. Thank you for standing with him. - Patrick and the entire Change.org team P.S. Troy's case has brought international attention to deep, long-existing flaws in our criminal justice system. If you're interested in becoming more involved in advocacy around the death penalty, visit Amnesty International, The Innocence Project, or the NAACP. You can also start your own campaign on this issue on Change.org. |
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Subject: RE: Songs for Troy Davis (execution) From: foggers Date: 22 Sep 11 - 02:07 PM Over here in UK I am an Amnesty International member; could not believe it when I heard the BBC news report that Troy had been executed today. Just speechless with rage.... |
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Subject: RE: Songs for Troy Davis (execution) From: alanabit Date: 22 Sep 11 - 03:31 PM I do not know enough about the details of this case, but on the surface of it, there seemed at least to be "reasonable doubt". I like to think that it would not have happened in my country. That aside, I have no problem in saying that I dislike executions in general. China, Russia, Thailand, Burma, Iran and Saudi Arabia are all countries which still carry them out. There are certainly many Americans who do not like to line up alongside those regimes on this issue. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Troy Davis? From: alanabit Date: 22 Sep 11 - 03:39 PM It has probably brought the system, which carried it out, into disrepute. I do not know whether the man was innocent or guilty - but I am not yet convinced that anyone in the system did either. I do not think anyone comes out of this sordid affair with much credit - except perhaps for those who will inevitably reform the system. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Troy Davis? From: Bobert Date: 22 Sep 11 - 03:41 PM Well, ya' don't go writing bad checks down in Mississippi And there ain't no good chain gang... It's a Southern thang ya'll... Used to do 'um back behind the corn fields... Cook up some chicken... Pick a little music and string up a darkie... Good clean fun, ya' hear... (((spit))) Now ya'll pointy headed northerners don't know nuthin' about havin' no fun so just stay up there and read them books an stuff and don't be messin' with us unless you want the rope yerseffs, ya' hear??? (((spit))) ______________________________________________________________________ Well, I am absolutely disgusted with the lack of morality in this country these days... We were making progress but the radical rednecks have taken control and are trying to take up back a 100 years... I mean, I was disgusted to hear all those Tea-necks cheer when Perry was asked about all the executions in his state... I wads disgusted to hear people yell "hang him" (Obama) at Palin rallies... I was disgusted to be threatened with 2nd amendment remedies for not agreeing with REDNECK NATION... I am disgusted that SC has just disenfranchised tens of thousands of black voters because they were born at a time when black people were born at home and were not issued "official" birth certificates... I mean, I could go on and on but... ...RIP, Troy Davis... I didn't know you but from the pictures that I've seen you looked very much a man of peace and Faith... More than I can say for most of my redneck neighbors, that much is for sure... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Troy Davis? From: catspaw49 Date: 22 Sep 11 - 03:59 PM I also signed that petition and sat watching MSNBC last night in hopes that we might do the sensible thing. We didn't. The victim's family may not have gotten the justice they so much desired if the wrong man was found guilty. Perhaps one day we will all know for sure but Troy Davis won't benefit from it. Hopefully someone else down the road will. Once again I love what America could be and I hate what it is. Feel free to disagree with me and then go fuck yourself. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Troy Davis? From: Don Firth Date: 22 Sep 11 - 04:27 PM Paul, it's not that I don't have anything to say on the matter, but when it comes to speaking up about it, Mudcat was not my first priority. I--and I'm sure many others--have been speaking plenty about it. But I did my speaking in the form of signing petitions, talking to people, and writing letters. Other than adding my name to the long list on the petition that was submitted, there is not much else I can do here. I'm on the opposite side of the country. But I can--and AM--talking to people here in Washington State, INCLUDING a state legislator whom I know personally, about capital punishment laws here. Believe me, this is not being overlooked, even if it may look that way to you. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Troy Davis? From: GUEST,josepp Date: 22 Sep 11 - 04:38 PM Every time I see someone being freed because of DNA evidence and what not, the person is always black which tells me the US has a fundamentally and systematically flawed way of trying and convicting blacks. So to execute one when so much doubt lingers as to his guilt makes me balk. All I have to say to the Georgia courts and authorities is, "I hope like hell you're right and you'd better pray you are." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Troy Davis? From: Bobert Date: 22 Sep 11 - 04:44 PM Yo, Spawz... No, "We" didn't do the wrong thing... The 5 "usual suspects" at the Supreme Court did... The way I understand it it would have taken 5, not 4, last night to stop it... "Those 5" didn't... "Those 5" did the wrong thing... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Troy Davis? From: DrugCrazed Date: 22 Sep 11 - 05:15 PM I've been internetless (still am) and thus know very little, but I've always thought that the death penalty should be reserved for cases where there is no doubt whatsoever. Not beyond reasonable doubt, no doubt whatsoever |
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Subject: RE: BS: Troy Davis? From: gnu Date: 22 Sep 11 - 05:20 PM "seven witnesses who changed or recanted their testimony" Will they be tried for perjury? |
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Subject: RE: Songs for Troy Davis (execution) From: Stringsinger Date: 22 Sep 11 - 05:37 PM A new song needs to be written about the shame of Georgia, the aftermath of the killing of Troy Davis and an appeal to end the death penalty. I hope this will be forthcoming. I really like Nellie McKay's song....well written imho. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Troy Davis? From: Wesley S Date: 22 Sep 11 - 06:09 PM How about the other man who was there { Redd Coles } - that years later - told folks that HE had been the actual shooter. NOT Troy Davis. Don't leave out Texas. That same day they executed a white supremacist that had dragged a black man - James Byrd - behind his pickup truck until he died. |
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Subject: RE: Songs for Troy Davis (execution) From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 22 Sep 11 - 06:17 PM You'll find Georgia's Governer, Nathan Deal, on Facebook. His page was filled with anger all day yesterday, whilst Troy still lived..and today even more anger after they killed him! Also, The White House is also on FB. Put your messages on there too.. Over ONE MILLION people signed the petitions for Troy yesterday and the bastards ignored the whole damn lot. May they be found to be guilty of killing an innocent man, locking him up for 20 years beforehand and making him face his own execution once before, with just 2 hours to go before he was allowed more time, before his next execution, this time carried out.... 7 of the 9 witnesses changed their statements and I believe an 8th witness even admitted to the crime. From the FBI to the Pope, calls came in to stop this, but they did what THEY wanted to do all along. Sickening and totally degrading for America and her People, who should be out in their millions over this case.... |
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Subject: RE: Songs for Troy Davis (execution) From: katlaughing Date: 22 Sep 11 - 06:18 PM Thank you, Becky. Will listen and read when I feel stronger, emotionally. Too, too sad right now about the terrible news and the sad state of affairs in this country. |
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Subject: RE: Singing Troy Davis's spirit home From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 22 Sep 11 - 06:19 PM The US Embassy in London merely had a 'Comments Line' to leave your messages on. That's an 'answerphone' in old language.. No-one was available to talk to.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Troy Davis? From: katlaughing Date: 22 Sep 11 - 06:21 PM Please see thread up top: songs for Troy Davis. Thanks to Becky for posting it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Troy Davis? From: Wesley S Date: 22 Sep 11 - 06:38 PM Here are some comments currently running in the Atlanta paper.... I'm tired of people calling whites racist..........we don't have white history month, white miss america, on, and on, and on........ If Troy Davis was a white man, would there have been such commotion? We'll the media really made a circus out of Troy Davis - who is next? Ever notice that most of the bleeding hearts who are vehemently opposed to the death penalty are also vehemently pro abortion? I guess killing violent, guilty criminals is immoral but killing innocent babies is a "choice". It is likely politically incorrect, or illegal, for nonprofit or other organizations to focus on helping white people. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Troy Davis? From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 22 Sep 11 - 06:41 PM Take a look at the first two threads on here, filled with people begging him to intervene... Governor of Georgia - Nathan Deal - Facebook Page What total bastards were in action last night! And of course, the Parole Board sits on Martin Luther King Street....kind of ironic that, huh... It's so sickening, as to be barely believable... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Troy Davis? From: gnu Date: 22 Sep 11 - 06:53 PM Why bring the colour of skin into this discussion? |
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Subject: RE: Songs for Troy Davis (execution) From: Joe Offer Date: 22 Sep 11 - 07:02 PM Lizzie says: Sickening and totally degrading for America and her People, who should be out in their millions over this case.... Unfortunately, execution is very popular in the United States. Politicians who oppose capital punishment are said to be committing political suicide. Ironically, many of those most vehement in support of capital punishment, are people who call themselves "pro-life." -Joe- I think I'm going to combine all three threads on this subject, since the same things are being said in each. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Troy Davis? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Sep 11 - 07:06 PM Does anyone think that the killers on the parole board, and in the Governor's mansion actually cared whether this man was guilty or innocent? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Troy Davis? From: Amergin Date: 22 Sep 11 - 07:06 PM I am not against the death penalty. Some people do not deserve to live after committing horrible crimes. However, I like being damn sure the person did it, no matter his colour or religion. It's just one of those things...convicting and executing some one just because it is expedient, rather than being sure the right man was given the needle, well is a crime just as revolting as the one that put the convict on the row. They should have at the least stayed his execution, pending further investigation, or commuted his sentence to life, but no one wanted to admit they might have been wrong, and so it is possible a gross injustice may have been committed last night. I understand how MacPhail's loved ones would want to see some one pay for his murder, however killing a possibly innocent man is not the way to avenge a slain loved one...and MacPhail being a police officer would have wanted to be positive the right man was sentenced. In other news, also last night a white supremacist in Texas was executed for his part in dragging a handicapped black man behind a pick up truck. This bastard deserved his death. He was full of hate, and proud of what he did, however if any legitimate doubt had been raised that he was an innocent man on the row, his execution would have been just as wrong as Davis'. It is better to commute a guilty man's sentence, than to spill an innocent man's blood. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Sep 11 - 07:24 PM Twenty years on Death Row, and then they kill you... Only in America. Other places they execute people convicted of murder,or they give them life sentences. One or the other, not both. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (execution) From: gnu Date: 22 Sep 11 - 07:27 PM Seven witnesses implicated him. Why would seven witnesses do that? Has a conspiracy theory been investigated? What did they have to gain by lying? Why would they lie? As for being under duress, well, forget the flowery language I could use... I think it's bullshit and, apparently, so do the people who executed him. Those witnesses gave their accounts. The man was convicted. THEN some of them recanted because they say they felt threatened during police investigations? Why did they not feel threatened when they wished to recant? Which brings me back to an earlier question I asked... will these witnesses who lied under oath be tried for perjury? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Troy Davis? From: Jeri Date: 22 Sep 11 - 07:29 PM "If Troy Davis was a white man, would there have been such commotion?" I don't believe this would have happened to a white man. If you know of one who was convicted of murder and sentenced to die with NO physical evidence, but based solely on eyewitness testimony, much of which was recanted, then add in that another individual confessed to having committed the crime, let us know. If this extremely improbably set of criteria are met, then find a case like this that had to be ignored by the parole board, and the state supreme court, and if it does have to go all the way to the Supreme Court of the US, they're at least going to WANT TO INVESTIGATE IT. There are tons of things I don't know, and what those guys were thinking are among them... or even "if". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: Sandy Mc Lean Date: 22 Sep 11 - 07:36 PM Whatever constitutes reasonable doubt in Georgia is perhaps influenced by racism, but why in blazes did the US Supreme Court refuse to intervene? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Sep 11 - 07:39 PM will these witnesses who lied under oath be tried for perjury? Interesting - would that be for lying when they made the original statement or when they recanted? The former might be a bit embarrassing... Well it would be embarrassing to anyone capable of being embarrassed, so I suppose that doesn't apply here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: saulgoldie Date: 22 Sep 11 - 08:49 PM From the Atlantic Monthly website: "The club of prisoner-executing nations is an inauspicious one. You've got the world's great dictatorships and autocracies (Iran, Zimbabwe, China, North Korea, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Libya, Egypt, Ethiopia, Cuba, Belarus), it's most failed and failing states (Somalia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Sudan, Congo, Chad, Yemen, Guinea, Bangladesh), not to mention the entire Middle East save Israel." And aren't we proud to be in such august company? Saul |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: Bobert Date: 22 Sep 11 - 08:55 PM Wait a minute, ya'll... This is less about Troy Davis and everything to do with the immorality of the death penalty, in general... Time for it to go... We either believe in sanctity of life or we don't... Life, no parole... The state should not be in the killing business... Period... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: Wesley S Date: 22 Sep 11 - 09:15 PM I wonder what percentage of the folks who are pro-death penalty are also anti-abortion? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: Bobert Date: 22 Sep 11 - 09:22 PM 100%... Next question... Yup, these folks are all for birth but once the umbilical cord is cut cut it's, "Screw you, baby!"... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: Bill D Date: 22 Sep 11 - 10:24 PM "The 5 "usual suspects" at the Supreme Court did...<" Sorry Bobert, but all the Supreme court did was decide that Georgia was 'acting legally'. They did NOT contemplate the evidence itself. That was done by the board in Georgia that refused the petition for clemency. The Appeals Court and the Supreme Court are ONLY to determine whether there is a legal problem with procedure. It is sad, it was a travesty, it should never have been allowed to happen, but the "Board of Appeals" in Georgia is where the refusal to re-examine the 'evidence' occurred. Something in the heads & hearts of the appeals board simply did not WANT to look at the renewed evidence. They WANTED the man executed so the debate would begin to end. They... and others... did not want to admit that they had kept Davis in prison for 20 years with bad evidence. So... they just carried out the execution. Now, if the real murderer confesses, it will be very interesting. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: Bobert Date: 22 Sep 11 - 11:13 PM You were a Philosophy major, Bill, so you'll get this... This Supreme Court has figured out how to turn several pieces of of legal papers into human flesh (Citizens United) so if they had wanted to stay this execution they would have found a way... The 7 witnesses who admitted to giving false testimony gave the Supremes a way... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 23 Sep 11 - 01:11 AM GREAT TOPIC - Thank you
The courts painstakingly, over 20 years, reviewed the evidence four, complete, times.
The man lived TWO decades longer than his victum. And the list of the perp's "priors" - makes one hope his DNA did not replicate....
A Georgia jury convicted Davis for the murder of Savannah police officer Mark Allen MacPhail - in the early morning hours of August 19, 1989, and for two other offenses. The trial court sentenced him to death for the murder conviction. (MacPhail - father or two - working two jobs to support a wife and family - a sworn officer-white-man, protecting a homeless black-man from a horrific assault.) Some Folkies will welcome ANY audience..ANY where...at ANY time. Nice sequay into the upper-kingdom, dessert dancer.
Suggested SONG TITLES Scum Of The Earth Murder In The First Degree Murder Music Row Murder By Numbers Murder 2 Murder, He Says Thy Art Is Murder Blue Murder
Sincerely, |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: GUEST,Bluesman Date: 23 Sep 11 - 04:16 AM Well all the singing didn't help much ! Job done. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: MGM·Lion Date: 23 Sep 11 - 07:22 AM Accusations of 'racism' might not come so well from you, Richard, after your misguided animadversions on the legitimacy of the State of Israel ~~ see what I had to rejoin to you on that topic in the Palestine thread. ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 23 Sep 11 - 07:55 AM In the United States it may be common for people who support the death penalty to combine it with being opposed to abortion, but elsewhere I suspect that is a pretty uncommon combination. That especially is the case with most Christian churches, notably including the Catholic Church, which has been strongly condemnatory of capital punishment. For example Pope Benedict appealed for Try Davis not to be killed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: Bobert Date: 23 Sep 11 - 09:19 AM 7 out of 9 witnesses came forth and said they were pressured by the police to finger Davis... There was no physical evidence presented at the trial... No gun owned by Davis... No fingerprints... No nothin'... Given the number of folks who have been found innocent (almost all black) over the last 15 or so years after having been convicted I think one can certainly make the case, especially in states where poor black people are not adequately represented in court, that this country has and will continue to murder innocent black people up until REDNECK NATION itself has had enough, should that ever occur... BTW, I would be willing to bet that if these executions were held in the middle of a football stadium and tickets sold for folks to watch it that REDNECK NATION would pack the stadium... We certainly are going backwards at an astounding rate of speed... Jim Crow hasn't been this happy since the 1930s... Bob |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: Richard Bridge Date: 23 Sep 11 - 09:21 AM True dat. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: pdq Date: 23 Sep 11 - 09:54 AM COP-KILLER IS MEDIA'S LATEST BABY SEAL September 21, 2011 For decades, liberals tried persuading Americans to abolish the death penalty, using their usual argument: hysterical sobbing. Only when the media began lying about innocent people being executed did support for the death penalty begin to waver, falling from 80 percent to about 60 percent in a little more than a decade. (Silver lining: That's still more Americans than believe in man-made global warming.) Fifty-nine percent of Americans now believe that an innocent man has been executed in the last five years. There is more credible evidence that space aliens have walked among us than that an innocent person has been executed in this country in the past 60 years, much less the past five years. But unless members of the public are going to personally review trial transcripts in every death penalty case, they have no way of knowing the truth. The media certainly won't tell them. It's nearly impossible to receive a death sentence these days -- unless you do something completely crazy like shoot a cop in full view of dozens of witnesses in a Burger King parking lot, only a few hours after shooting at a passing car while exiting a party. That's what Troy Davis did in August 1989. Davis is the media's current baby seal of death row. After a two-week trial with 34 witnesses for the state and six witnesses for the defense, the jury of seven blacks and five whites took less than two hours to convict Davis of Officer Mark MacPhail's murder, as well as various other crimes. Two days later, the jury sentenced Davis to death. Now, a brisk 22 years after Davis murdered Officer MacPhail, his sentence will finally be administered this week -- barring any more of the legal shenanigans that have kept taxpayers on the hook for Davis' room and board for the past two decades. (The average time on death row is 14 years. Then liberals turn around and triumphantly claim the death penalty doesn't have any noticeable deterrent effect. As the kids say: Duh.) It has been claimed -- in The New York Times and Time magazine, for example -- that there was no "physical evidence" connecting Davis to the crimes that night. Davis pulled out a gun and shot two strangers in public. What "physical evidence" were they expecting? No houses were broken into, no cars stolen, no rapes or fistfights accompanied the shootings. Where exactly would you look for DNA? And to prove what? I suppose it would be nice if the shell casings from both shootings that night matched. Oh wait -- they did. That's "physical evidence." It's true that the bulk of the evidence against Davis was eyewitness testimony. That tends to happen when you shoot someone in a busy Burger King parking lot. Eyewitness testimony, like all evidence tending to show guilt, has gotten a bad name recently, but the "eyewitness" testimony in this case did not consist simply of strangers trying to distinguish one tall black man from another. For one thing, several of the eyewitnesses knew Davis personally. The bulk of the eyewitness testimony established the following: Two tall, young black men were harassing a vagrant in the Burger King parking lot, one in a yellow shirt and the other in a white Batman shirt. The one in the white shirt used a brown revolver to pistol-whip the vagrant. When a cop yelled at them to stop, the man in the white shirt ran, then wheeled around and shot the cop, walked over to his body and shot him again, smiling. Some eyewitnesses described the shooter as wearing a white shirt, some said it was a white shirt with writing, and some identified it specifically as a white Batman shirt. Not one witness said the man in the yellow shirt pistol-whipped the vagrant or shot the cop. Several of Davis' friends testified -- without recantation -- that he was the one in a white shirt. Several eyewitnesses, both acquaintances and strangers, specifically identified Davis as the one who shot Officer MacPhail. Now the media claim that seven of the nine witnesses against Davis at trial have recanted. First of all, the state presented 34 witnesses against Davis -- not nine -- which should give you some idea of how punctilious the media are about their facts in death penalty cases. Among the witnesses who did not recant a word of their testimony against Davis were three members of the Air Force, who saw the shooting from their van in the Burger King drive-in lane. The airman who saw events clearly enough to positively identify Davis as the shooter explained on cross-examination, "You don't forget someone that stands over and shoots someone." Recanted testimony is the least believable evidence since it proves only that defense lawyers managed to pressure some witnesses to alter their testimony, conveniently after the trial has ended. Even criminal lobbyist Justice William Brennan ridiculed post-trial recantations. Three recantations were from friends of Davis, making minor or completely unbelievable modifications to their trial testimony. For example, one said he was no longer sure he saw Davis shoot the cop, even though he was five feet away at the time. His remaining testimony still implicated Davis. One alleged recantation, from the vagrant's girlfriend (since deceased), wasn't a recantation at all, but rather reiterated all relevant parts of her trial testimony, which included a direct identification of Davis as the shooter. Only two of the seven alleged "recantations" (out of 34 witnesses) actually recanted anything of value -- and those two affidavits were discounted by the court because Davis refused to allow the affiants to testify at the post-trial evidentiary hearing, even though one was seated right outside the courtroom, waiting to appear. The court specifically warned Davis that his refusal to call his only two genuinely recanting witnesses would make their affidavits worthless. But Davis still refused to call them -- suggesting, as the court said, that their lawyer-drafted affidavits would not have held up under cross-examination. With death penalty opponents so fixated on Davis' race -- he's black -- it ought to be noted that all the above witnesses are themselves African-American. The first man Davis shot in the car that night was African-American. I notice that the people so anxious to return this sociopathic cop-killer to the street don't live in his neighborhood. There's a reason more than a dozen courts have looked at Davis' case and refused to overturn his death sentence. He is as innocent as every other executed man since at least 1950, which is to say, guilty as hell. COPYRIGHT 2011 ANN COULTER |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: Bobert Date: 23 Sep 11 - 10:58 AM ANN COULTER??? Ah huh... They right wing has learned that facts no longer matter... They make up whatever they want... When they are called on their ballgames that SCREAM "prove it" and then turn the BIG conversation into bickering over minute details using the well paid bloggers as their back up and after a while the BIG conversation is completely gone out the window... BTW, this was the "Teribus Tactic" during the Mad-Dash-To-Iraq days... He would try to use SUBTERFUGE to steer the conversation away from the Big conversation... Well, look where that got *US*??? B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: catspaw49 Date: 23 Sep 11 - 11:18 AM Ann Coulter can kiss my entire ass. Like I would believe jackshit from that simpleass bimbo...........yeah, right...............tis a great shame there is no similar penalty for being a scrawny-assed, dimbulb, fuckwit bitch.....THEN you might have a case for the death penalty! Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: olddude Date: 23 Sep 11 - 11:20 AM Murder by an individual, or Murder by a state ... it is all the same thing. An eye for an eye ends up with a blind world .. No government has the right to murder under the excuse of punishment. It is terrible and it is about time this country joins other civilized countries and ends this shit now |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: GUEST,Bluesman Date: 23 Sep 11 - 11:24 AM I take it you don't like this "Ann Coulter" I never heard of her before, just googled her, have to say, I know nothing about her views, but I would say, she is not a bad looking tart. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: Bobert Date: 23 Sep 11 - 11:30 AM She's a radical right winged FOX commentator... Not a journalist... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: MGM·Lion Date: 23 Sep 11 - 11:46 AM I wrote a letter this morning to The Times [the real, London-based, one]. I venture to reproduce it here, as the word "civilised" is being predictably flung about on this thread [see e.g. Old Dude 4 posts above]. I think it a word best avoided in this argument, for reasons my letter will make clear. As I have said before, I am ambivalent on the cap-pun issue; but the "civilisation" argument appears to me misconceived and counterproductive, for reasons I hope will become apparent below ~~ The Editor of The Times Sir, Opponents of capital punishment do their cause no service by their constant appeal to the concept of "civilisation". A good example of what I mean occurs in today's letter from Mr Alan Platt: "The killing of a subject by a state has no place in a civilised society". States have always executed their criminals. Were the ancient Athenians and the Romans not "civilised societies"? Nor the Chinese and Japanese? Nor the ancient Hebrews (just have a look at the capital offences instanced in Leviticus and Deuteronomy)? I could go on, but my point is made. There is something quaintly ridiculous in the idea that there was no "civilisation" to be found in pretty well the entire world until the time in about the early 20th century that people began to question the efficacy and morality of capital punishment. The present situation whereby many nations (by no means all, especially in the Islamic world) have forgone this particular sanction is but a blip in human history, which quite likely won't last anyhow. The idea that "civilisation" in any way depends on it is self-evidently absurd. I write not even as a supporter of capital punishment, on which I am ambivalent; but as a lover of accuracy and intelligence in argument. Michaℇl Groſvℇnor Myɛ℞ MICHAEL GROSVENOR MYER 34 West End Haddenham Cambridge CB6 3TE ☏ Ely [01353] 740738 mobile✆ 07534 449171 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: Bobert Date: 23 Sep 11 - 11:50 AM Civilization just about everywhere but the United Sates has evolved further toward humanity... The US talks the talk but walks the walk like man with no legs... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: MGM·Lion Date: 23 Sep 11 - 12:00 PM Well, it's taken about 7,000 years of recorded history to do it, Bobert? Do you really think there was no 'civilisation' before, let's say, the formation of our Howard league for Penal Reform in 1866, properly established in that name 1921, or whatever might be the comparable organisations elasewhere? Oh, come now... ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: Azizi Date: 23 Sep 11 - 12:05 PM While it's not a song, in my opinion this video statement by Judge Mathis' on Troy Davis should join the ranks of such significant and notable statements by African Americans as Martin Luther King, Jr's "I Have A Dream" speech and speeches by Fredeick Douglas, Booker T. Washington, Sojourner Truth, Fannie Lou Hamer, and Jesse Jackson. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogBdP6INHlE Judge Mathis Weighs in on the execution of Troy Davis I transcribed that video for the historical, sociological, and cultural record and posted the video and its transcription on this page of my Cocojams's website: http://www.cocojams.com/content/georgia-has-blood-its-hands-judge-mathis-statement-about-troy-davis-execution Note: that Judge Mathis did not give the title "Georgia Has Blood On Its Hands" to his statement. I lifted that title from the last sentence of his statement. For those who aren't familiar with Judge Greg Mathis, he is an African American retired judge from Michigan and has a popular American syndicated court television show. Hat tip to my facebook friend Alan Moorhouse for alerting me to this thread. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 23 Sep 11 - 12:07 PM Ancient Romans and Athenians also combined being civilised with slavery; and of course the Roman's favoured method of state killing was crucifixion or public entertainment. Excellent company to keep. Basically it's people saying "You really ought to know better, and we feel pretty revolted at your behaviour", but that would sound a bit too rude. The same way you might talk to someone who goes in for spitting on the bus. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: Wesley S Date: 23 Sep 11 - 12:23 PM "I know nothing about her views, but I would say, she is not a bad looking tart. " That's because some attractive people become ugly the moment they open their mouths. Ann Coulter is a prime example. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: MGM·Lion Date: 23 Sep 11 - 12:40 PM Actually, McGrath, crucifixion was forbidden for Roman citizens ~~ only slaves or conquered peoples without citizen status were liable to it. One of Cicero's most famous speeches was in denunciation of a proconsul's insistence on crucifying a man who continuously pleaded "Civis Romanus sum". The Senate upheld Cicero, and the proconsul was removed from office, and, I believe, subsequently executed himself [tho not by crucifixion!] for his abuse of office. I am not arguing that the claims to civilisation of all past societies depended on the humaneness or otherwise of their methods of execution, many of which do not even bear thinking about. It is just that it seems to me absurd to equate 'civilisation' with an abandonment of cap-pun, when the argument of history is so manifestly to the contrary: until very recently, all states, including those from whom the adjective 'civilised' can not be withheld on any possible rational grounds, practised it as a matter of course. ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: Bobert Date: 23 Sep 11 - 12:55 PM Well, bluesman... You can't be a real bluesman and think like that... I know... I ***am*** a real bluesman, learned my trade from black folks and I'll guarentee you that you won't find any of these folks who would agree with you... Not only that, but if you were to say what you just said in a real blues juke joint you'd get your ass kicked... BTW, Mizz-azizi... Thanks for the clip... This real judge, though retired, has it 100% correct on every count, including ending capital punishment... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: Bill D Date: 23 Sep 11 - 01:15 PM Bobert... because I am a philosopher, I see the flaw in equating the Court's stupid decision in "Citizens United" with the idea of doubling-down and using their power to invent another end run around legality. I repeat...the decision by the Georgia Appeals board was where Troy Davis' options were ended. IF several eyewitnesses still maintain they saw what they claimed, but 7 do not... that seems like a very good reason to AT LEAST stay and rethink the death sentence. The point being... there IS reasonable doubt, no matter what you think of capital punishment in general, the 'presumed' racial element (always likely, seldom provable), or the emotional wishes of the victim's family or your own 'interpretation' of what facts are available. As to capital punishment...*shrug*.. I can see exactly why many wish to ban it totally. It DOES often commit mistakes and it plays to the darker side of many people's attitudes. It is sad and regrettable... ...still, I can also easily see arguments FOR it in certain cases. When there IS no doubt as to guilt, and the offender is in prison "for life without parole", it often happens that he (the offender) makes a prison 'hobby' of seeing how many other prisoners or guards he can injure or kill...and brags about it! I do NOT see why prison guards must risk their lives every day to to deal with men who flatly assert that they have no compunctions about "getting" some enemy, whether prison official or other prisoner from some other racial group. As was pointed out above, humans have always, in most societies, found ways to 'do away with' enemies of the society. Yes... I KNOW that that power is often abused...but it will BE practiced and abused whether it is legal or not. I see no reason to NOT have a legal way to deal with the proven "worst of the worst", including those who DO abuse the legal ways! What we have now is simply a cultural variance, where some states see it one way and some the other, and I see little way around that. IF we have a National ban on capital punishment, certain states will gradually have prisons crowded with inmates too dangerous to deal with...and inevitable deaths & injuries to staff. If we do NOT ban it, some states will just go on executing everyone convicted, no matter how good the evidence, how prejudiced the jury, how cynical the prosecutors, how blind the judges and how poor the reporting! We are human... and we may NEVER be able to sort out our own reasonable fears and solutions from just simple knee-jerk reactions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: Bill D Date: 23 Sep 11 - 01:21 PM Oh... and I forgot I was going include one of best lines I ever heard..(saw it in Facebook...I think) re: Citizens United: "I'll believe a corporation is a person when Texas executes one!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: Bobert Date: 23 Sep 11 - 02:02 PM Bill, US history is replete with "obiter dictum" opinions by the Supreme Court... "Citizen United" is the most recent where the court went well beyond what the plaintiffs were asking... We disagree here... Had this Supreme Court wanted to stop this execution it could have... Heck, this same Supreme Court stayed the execution of the Lawrence Brewer, the White Supremacist for which there was no doubt of guilt... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 23 Sep 11 - 02:27 PM He was found guilty and dealt with by the law of the land. Since 1973 more than 130 people have been released from death row after evidence of their innocence has been brought to light. Troy Davis's conviction appears to have been very clearly "unsafe". This would mean that this an act of legal murder. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: GUEST Date: 23 Sep 11 - 02:32 PM No, unBluesman, your comments, especially those about Judge Mathis, fall squarely in the bulls eye of racist "code talk"... But folks like you don't have any understanding of race, history, Jim Crow or the black community.... Those of us who were part of the civil rights movement can de-code racist remarks instinctively... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 24 Sep 11 - 05:08 AM I have always felt racists to be complete and utter prats. Some of the comments above absolutely bear out my instincts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: GUEST,Bluesman Date: 24 Sep 11 - 06:03 AM All this talking isn't going to bring him back, he was found guilty, dealt with, end off. Get a life, Knit or Crochet and just move on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 24 Sep 11 - 06:10 AM His case was gravely doubted. I could find you guilty of many things, Bluesman, but I would not call for you to spend 20 years imprisoned, then be made to face your own execution, spared, then years later, executed. The man had more dignity in his little finger than you have in your entire body. Thank you Now, piss off back to where you came from. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: GUEST,Bluesman Date: 24 Sep 11 - 06:24 AM It has nothing to do with race or creed. Troy Davis and his partner in crime shot an officer. Mr. Davis was also convicted of armed robbery where another person was shot. Result , a dangerous gunman off the street. If you don't want to go to prison or get the death penalty, don't put yourself in situations where you might. Seems kinda simple to me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: Big Al Whittle Date: 24 Sep 11 - 06:38 AM Blessed are the simple, for they shall be simplified.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: Big Al Whittle Date: 24 Sep 11 - 06:39 AM Scorn not his simplicity....... well all right if you must! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: GUEST,josepp Date: 24 Sep 11 - 03:51 PM ////It has nothing to do with race or creed.///// You are either stupid or incredibly naive. Do you even live in America??? It's ALWAYS about race, buddy--always. You have to be white. No one else would say something that ridiculous concerning American justice. It's about race and money--if you're a person of color, you stand far more chance of being convicted unless you're rich in which case you can buy your innocence. You are fooling yourself if you believe this is not the case. ////Troy Davis and his partner in crime shot an officer.//// That may be. It may also not be. That's the problem I have with executing him. There needs to be absolute certainty and there clearly wasn't. ////Mr. Davis was also convicted of armed robbery where another person was shot.//// That may be but that is another crime, not the one for which he was executed. We are supposed to execute people for what they did, not for who they are. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: Stilly River Sage Date: 24 Sep 11 - 11:39 PM It's easy to dismiss the case if you have an automatic bias against people of color. I fear that is Bluesman's problem. It was certainly the problem of the jury in the trial, and the problem of the family of the officer. They're going to feel bad when someone else finally does confess to the crime. It will happen, it often does. Trouble is, the courts are truculent about admitting errors, so too many innocent people are executed. Ask me how I know: I live in Texas. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: MGM·Lion Date: 25 Sep 11 - 12:55 AM Tho I agree with the comment above that strict justice demands that an offender should in legal theory only ever be punished for the specific crime with which he is instantly charged, I would refer back to the old 'Georg Davis Is Innocent' thread; where the point was made that the reason Davis was probably not guilty of the offence for which he was sentenced was that he was committing another crime somewhere else at that very time: nobody, including himself, claimed that he was other than a career-criminal. Without wishing to push comparisons too far, it appears that there may be some conclusions to be drawn from that case in relation to the subject of the present thread. ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Sep 11 - 06:44 AM ...rightly convicted...hideous claims of innocence...gullible supporters Impressive effort at objectivity there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: MGM·Lion Date: 25 Sep 11 - 09:03 AM Why should anyone be expected to be 'objective' in denunciation of crime, McG? I am not saying that I think the guilt established in this instance ~~ I don't purport to know enough of the facts; though some of my suspicions regarding the circumstances & character of this Mr Davis may be apparent from what I have said ~~ but Mr Håvard, obviously thinks him guilty, so why do you suggest he should be 'objective' about that - what purpose do you imagine would be served by his so being? & the ironic note in your post ill becomes the topic or your apparent attitude to it, IMO. ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: gnu Date: 25 Sep 11 - 01:46 PM SRS... "It's easy to dismiss the case if you have an automatic bias against people of color. I fear that is Bluesman's problem. It was certainly the problem of the jury in the trial, and the problem of the family of the officer." What was the makeup of the jury? How many whites, blacks, rednecks... ? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: pdq Date: 25 Sep 11 - 02:14 PM The jury was 7 Black, 5 White. There were 34 witnesses against Davis, not the 9 that anti-capital punishment zealots have claimed on their activist web sites. Several of the eye wintesses knew Davis personally, others knew him by sight. All the witnesses (as far as I can tell) were Black. Justice was served. If anti-capital punishment folks can get their initiatives passed by a free and open election process they will have theur way. Now they should abide by majoirity rule and get on with their lives. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 25 Sep 11 - 02:41 PM Amnesty International USA - On Troy Davis Andy Worthington on Troy Davis And from the above link to Andy's words, more words from Amnesty International: "...Speaking of the rejection of Davis's clemency petition by Georgia's State Board of Pardons and Paroles, Amnesty wrote, "This appalling decision renders meaningless the Board's 2007 vow to not permit an execution unless there is "no doubt" about guilt. The Troy Davis case is riddled with doubt......" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: GUEST,josepp Date: 25 Sep 11 - 02:45 PM I favor the death penalty but that also means I want absolute certainty that this person committed the crime and the crime should be one of wanton viciousness and savagery where it isn't worth keeping the scum alive. The Davis case doesn't fall into that criteria for me. Based on what I've heard, I'm not convinced. Contrast this with those cretins that broke into that house, beat the husband with baseball bats, raped his wife and then set the place on fire which killed his wife and two teenaged daughters--now THAT is a flat-out death penalty case. The Davis case just doesn't cut muster. Sorry. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: GUEST,Bluesman Date: 25 Sep 11 - 03:44 PM Not one word of sympathy for the family of the dead officer, or the other man Davis was convicted of shooting earlier that day. This is all down to playing the race card. It has nothing to do with race, Davis was a dangerous thug and if he happened to be the white son of an investment banker, the same few washed up no marks on this thread would be calling for him to swing for murdering another human being. I only wish they had slipped Davis a Mickey Finn years ago. It is always the same, the resident moaners here play the race/minority grouping card day and daily. Who cares what they think..... So glad to see America ignores the lunatic lefties, fortunately here in Britain our government is also making that momentous change. This guy was a murderer and now he is brown bread. There's your post mortem. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Sep 11 - 05:57 PM He may indeed have been a killer. On the other hand he may not have been. A fair appeals system would have overturned what was pretty clearly an unsafe conviction. Before being killed he served over 20 years in jail. That period means that the man who was killed was essentially a different man from the one who may or may not have done the earlier killing. The bizarre thing is that this combination of a life sentence with execution to follow is evidently not seen as a "cruel and unusual punishment" in the USA. Unusual? I don't think there is anywhere else on the planet where this could happen. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: gnu Date: 25 Sep 11 - 07:32 PM McGrath... "I don't think there is anywhere else on the planet where this could happen." He spent all that time in prison BECAUSE the state ALLOWED that time for him to be given every opportunity to clear himself. He could not. Re your comment, McGrath... too bad. Seems like a pretty lenient system to me. Now... seven black and five white jurors found him guilty... how is that racially biased? I am missin sommat here, am I? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: gnu Date: 25 Sep 11 - 08:02 PM Anyway, I still am confused about why the witnesses that lied under oath are not being charged and tried for perjury. I mean... if they lied, they participated in... abetted... murder... no? Could they also be tried for manslaughter? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: MGM·Lion Date: 26 Sep 11 - 02:55 AM gnu ~~ as will have been gathered, I admit to ignorance and come down firmly on neither side in this present case. BUT, if you consider a system whereby a person is ~~~ ~~~ sentenced to death, kept on Death Row often for longer than they have been alive before they entered it, subjected to years of on-off appeals, execution dates fixed, last-minute appeals, upheld, suspended, back to Death Row, start the whole thing over again, finally give them the fatal shot after all ~~ as a 'pretty lenient system', what system, for crying out loud, would you regard as severe? Over the rest of the world, please believe, we gaze on in astonishment at the inhumanity of your cat-&-mouse games with the condemned. It's a disgusting system, & it's time you all realised the contempt in which it is held even among those of us who may consider like me that our own system might just perhaps have gone too far to the other extreme. ~Michael~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 26 Sep 11 - 08:43 AM The problem with that, gnu, is that for that to happen, the state would have to admit that it had wilfully carried out the killing of Troy Davis in face of evidence that his conviction was invalid because unsafe,because that evidence would be what they would be using to seek conviction of the witnesses. Of course a joint trial of the State of Georgia together with these witnesses might perhaps be possible - but is there any legal process for that to be done? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: Bobert Date: 26 Sep 11 - 09:18 AM In hundreds of death-row exonerations there is one constant: eye witnesses are the least reliable part of the evidence... But to add to that, prosecutors never ever admit to convicting the wrong person, even after the exonerations... They are like the folks who believe that the earth is flat and that global warming is not being caused by man... Now lets add a couple other layers... Court appointed attorney's are generally the least qualified or they wouldn't sign up to do the work... These are either folks just starting out or ones that are so lousy they can't find anyone who wants to hire them... They also operate with no resources meaning that hiring "expert witnesses" is all but impossible... In Texas there are accounts of them actually falling asleep in court... Then there are the police... These are the folks who are out in the community and know folks and know the ones they can pressure, which in most poor & black communities is everyone... That is reality and unless one has worked in these communities one can not begin to understand how this all works... As a social workers in these neighborhoods for many years I know how that works and have seen it... Then there is the Supreme Court... It is packed with right winged ideologues who are ***expected*** to do the dirty work for the corporations and their redneck stooges who vote for the corporate politicians who use red meat emotional issues to keep these rednecks voting for them... So the Supreme Court knows it's job in this slimy affair and does what it is supposed to do... A white guy, Lawrence Brewer, a confessed White Supremest drags a black man to hid death in Texas with tons of evidence and gets his "appeal"... Troy Davis, who has 7 of the 9 eye witnesses change their story, doesn't??? This is reality... Making proclamations that Troy Davis was guilty is just that: a proclamation... Nothing else... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: olddude Date: 26 Sep 11 - 02:36 PM DNA evidence has release more death row inmates then anything before .. why, cause the justice system got it wrong originally ... Killing for revenge ... Never the act of a civilized society .. I don't care what the crime ... locked away forever .. yes ... but never by a society ... eye for an eye ... murder by the justice system or murder by a criminal .. it is all the same thing. When will our country join all the over civilized nations. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: olddude Date: 26 Sep 11 - 02:37 PM and thats other not over ... fingers don't work well today |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: MGM·Lion Date: 26 Sep 11 - 02:55 PM "Killing for revenge ... Never the act of a civilized society " .,.,., On the contrary, olddude, it has been the act of all civilised societies until, at most, 100 years or so ago. We do little service to history if we equate "civilisation" with the thoughts of the [often self-proclaimed] right-thinking of our own age. Were not the Greeks, Romans, Ancient Hebrews [just look at the capital offences rubricated in Leviticus & Deuteronomy], Chinese, Japanese {cont p 94} 'civilised'? This is not a statment pro or anti cap-pun, a topic on which I remain ambivalent; but a plea for balance in the use of language, and a suggestion that inaccurate hyperbole {("Never the act" ~ oh come!) liable to undermine rather than support an argument. ~Michael~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: Richard Bridge Date: 26 Sep 11 - 03:01 PM Was never - arguable Is never - not so arguable |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: MGM·Lion Date: 27 Sep 11 - 07:04 AM Fair point UP TO a point, Richard. But olddude avoided using a verb in his statement, so appeared to me to intend to leave the adverbial application of his "Never" ambiguous. I do not think it arguable that the present situation, whereby quite a lot, but by no means all, have abolished cap-pun, is up to now a brief, indeed minute, atypical blip in human history; with, moreover, no guarantee whatever of its continuance. ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: Richard Bridge Date: 27 Sep 11 - 07:08 AM Civilisations may revert to barbarism - that is a truism about human nature. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: MGM·Lion Date: 27 Sep 11 - 02:35 PM Surely you can see that your terms beg the question, Richard? Or do you really regard Romans, Greeks, Hebrews, Chinese et al as, by definition and ipso facto, 'barbarians' on the sole grounds that they practised cap-pun as every society has always done till the last practically-no-time-at-all? Oh come ~~ even you couldn't ~~ oh well, on past showing, I suppose you could! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: gnu Date: 27 Sep 11 - 03:46 PM "your cat-&-mouse games with the condemned" Ahhh, I ain't a Yank. I am a Canuck. And it is, like I said, not a game. It is in place so the tried and found guilty have EVERY chance to prove otherwise. To call it a cruel game which has no merit and which should not be allowed is to suggest hanging at dawn without delay. THAT is disgusting to me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: MGM·Lion Date: 27 Sep 11 - 03:50 PM No-one suggests that either, gnu ~~~ but to call these cat & mouseries 'lenient', even if it isn't your own country doing it but the next-door neighbours... Lenient??? Blimey! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 27 Sep 11 - 04:13 PM I think that if a society today were to reintroduce slavery, crucifixion and a number of other aspects of Roman or Greek society this would reasonably be described as a reversion to barbarism. On the other hand it is undeniable that highly civilised societies in modern times have done things which would have appalled Genghis Khan. Basically we use words like "civilised" and "barbaric" as rhetoric to indicate how disgusting we find some of the things our contemporaries do, in the hope perhaps that this may convey that feeling to people living in such societies. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: Richard Bridge Date: 27 Sep 11 - 04:29 PM I would certainly condemn many aspects, Mr Myer, of the historical cultures that you name, as uncivilised if practised today. You may be nearly historic, but do you not see that civilisation moves and must move on? Or do you propose to defend the slavery in Classical Greece, too? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: Big Al Whittle Date: 27 Sep 11 - 08:19 PM My take on it:- http://www.bigalwhittle.co.uk/id59.html How Do They Sleep Tonight? How are they sleeping tonight along that old death row are they waiting on each dawn light as their precious minutes go Does each heart twist in a knot of fear For the darkness is coming down - coming down slow How do they sleep tonight along death row How can your heart conceive of a judge saying you must die All those salaried suits with their law degrees listing the reasons why Your heart must stop, like a broken clock You must bid the light goodbye How do they sleep tonight along death row Tell me now, tell me how, tell me now sweet Jesus How could you let this be Are your minds so closed and your hearts so cruel In the home of the brave and the free How do you feel on a day when they're taking the next man down times he spoke with you and you were glad of a voices sound Will you cry, will you scream, will you struggle, will you fight Or does it always pay to be polite How do they sleep tonight along death row Tell me now, tell me how, tell me now sweet Jesus How could you let this be Are your minds so closed and your hearts so cruel In the home of the brave and the free The crown of thorns, and the nails and the tree and its all paid for by you and me and Tell me now, tell me how, tell me now sweet Jesus How could you let this be Are your minds so closed and your hearts so cruel In the home of the brave and the free Written and performed by Alan Whittle and David Forbes © 1999 Alan Whittle and David Forbes |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: GUEST,josepp Date: 27 Sep 11 - 08:41 PM The following list is the number of male inmates released from prison since 1973 for wrongful or questionable conviction. I make no claim as to their character or the character of those responsible for their incarceration. This is why a death penalty case should only be allowed where the guilt of the accused is not in question and the crime so heinous that it would be a travesty to allow such a person to live. Anything less is asking for and deserving of trouble. 1973. 1. David Keaton Florida (Keaton v. State, 273 So.2d 385 (1973)). Convicted 1971. 1974 2. Samuel A. Poole North Carolina (State v. Poole, 203 S.E.2d 786 (N.C. 1974)). Convicted 1973. 1975. 3. Wilbert Lee Florida (Pitts v. State 247 So.2d 53 (Fla. 1971), overturned and released by pardon in 1975). Convicted 1963. 4. Freddie Pitts Florida (Pitts v. State 247 So.2d 53 (Fla. 1971), overturned and released by pardon in 1975). Convicted 1965. 5. James Creamer Georgia (Emmett v. Ricketts, 397 F. Supp 1025 (N.D. Ga. 1975)). Convicted 1973. 6. Christopher Spicer North Carolina (State v. Spicer, 204 SE 2d 641 (1974)). Convicted 1973. 1976 7. Thomas Gladish New Mexico. Convicted 1974. 8. Richard Greer New Mexico. Convicted 1974. 9. Ronald Keine New Mexico. Convicted 1974. 10. Clarence Smith New Mexico. Convicted 1974. 1977. 11. Delbert Tibbs Florida. Convicted 1974. 1978. 12. Earl Charles Georgia. Convicted 1975. 13. Jonathan Treadway Arizona. Convicted 1975. 1979. 14. Gary Beeman Ohio. Convicted 1976. 1980 15. Jerry Banks. 16. Larry Hicks. 1981 17. Charles Ray Giddens. 18. Michael Linder. 19. Johnny Ross. 20. Ernest (Shuhaa) Graham. 1982 21. Annibal Jaramillo. 22. Lawyer Johnson Massachusetts (Commonwealth v. Johnson, 429 N.E.2d 726 (1982)). Convicted 1971. 1985 23. Larry Fisher. 1986 24. Anthony Brown. 25. Neil Ferber. 26. Clifford Henry Bowen. 1987 27. Joseph Green Brown. 28. Perry Cobb. 29. Darby (Williams) Tillis. 30. Vernon McManus. 31. Anthony Ray Peek. 32. Juan Ramos. 33. Robert Wallace. 1988 34. Richard Neal Jones. 35. Willie Brown. 36. Larry Troy. 1989 37. Randall Dale Adams Texas (Ex Parte Adams, 768 S.W.2d 281) (Tex. Crim App. 1989). Convicted 1977[3][4]. 38. Robert Cox. 39. James Richardson. On April 8, 2010, former death row inmate Timothy B. Hennis, once exonerated in 1989, was reconvicted of a triple murder, thereby dropping him from the list of those exonerated. [1] Sentenced to death by military court-martial 15 April 2010 1990 40. Clarence Brandley Texas (Ex Parte Brandley, 781 S.W.2d 886 (Tex. Crim App. 1989). Convicted 1981. 41. John C. Skelton. 42. Dale Johnston. 43. Jimmy Lee Mathers. 1991 44. Gary Nelson. 45. Bradley P. Scott. 46. Charles Smith. 1992 47. Jay C. Smith Pennsylvania. Convicted 1986. 1993 48. Kirk Bloodsworth Maryland. Convicted 1984. Exonerated 1993; first prisoner to be exonerated by DNA evidence. Serving life in prison when exonerated, as earlier death sentence was overturned. 49. Federico M. Macias. 50. Walter McMillan. 51. Gregory R. Wilhoit Oklahoma. Convicted 1987. Along with Ron Williamson, Wilhoit later became the subject of John Grisham's 2006 non-fiction book The Innocent Man: Murder and Injustice in a Small Town[5]. 52. James Robison. 53. Muneer Deeb. 1994 54. Andrew Golden. 1995 55. Adolph Munson. 56. Robert Charles Cruz. 57. Rolando Cruz. 58. Alejandro Hernández. 59. Sabrina Butler. 1996 60. Joseph Burrows. Joseph Burrows was released from death row after his attorney Kathleen Zellner persuaded the real killer to confess at the post-conviction hearing. 61. Verneal Jimerson. 62. Dennis Williams. 63. Roberto Miranda. 64. Gary Gauger 65. Troy Lee Jones. 66. Carl Lawson. 67. David Wayne Grannis. 1997 68. Ricardo Aldape Guerra. 69. Benjamin Harris. 70. Robert Hayes. 71. Christopher McCrimmon. 72. Randall Padgett. It is later revealed, through additional research by Prof. Samuel Gross of the University of Michigan, that though James Bo Cochran was acquitted of murder, he did plead guilty to a robbery charge in an agreement made with prosecutors prior to his release. Therefore, Cochran is no longer on the list of those exonerated from death row. [2] 1998 73. Robert Lee Miller, Jr. 74. Curtis Kyles. 1999 75. Shareef Cousin Louisiana (Louisiana v. Cousin, 710 So. 2d 1065 (1998)). Convicted 1996. 76. Anthony Porter Illinois. Convicted 1983. 77. Steven Smith. 78. Ronald Williamson Oklahoma. Convicted 1988. Along with Gregory R. Wilhoit, Williamson later became the inspiration for and subject of John Grisham's 2006 non-fiction book The Innocent Man: Murder and Injustice in a Small Town[5]. 79. Ronald Jones. 80. Clarence Dexter, Jr. 81. Warren Douglas Manning. 82. Alfred Rivera. 2000 83. Steve Manning. 84. Eric Clemmons. 85. Joseph Nahume Green. 86. Earl Washington Virginia (pardoned). Convicted 1994 (1984, without life sentence). 87. William Nieves. 88. Frank Lee Smith (died prior to exoneration). 89. Michael Graham. 90. Albert Burrell. 91. Oscar Lee Morris. 2001 92. Peter Limone. 93. Gary Drinkard. 94. Joachin José Martínez. 95. Jeremy Sheets. 96. Charles Fain. 2002 97. Juan Roberto Melendez-Colon Florida. Convicted 1984. 98. Ray Krone Arizona (State v. Krone, 897 P.2d 621 (Ariz. 1995) (en banc)). Convicted 1992. 99. Thomas Kimbell, Jr. 100. Larry Osborne. 2003 101. Aaron Patterson. 102. Madison Hobley. 103. Leroy Orange. 104. Stanley Howard. 105. Rudolph Holton. 106. Lemuel Prion. 107. Wesley Quick. 108. John Thompson. 109. Timothy Howard Ohio. Convicted 1976. 110. Gary Lamar James Ohio. Convicted 1976. 111. Joseph Amrine. 112. Nicholas Yarris Pennsylvania (Pennsylvania v. Yarris, No 690-OF1982, Court of Common Pleas, Delaware County, September 3, 2003. Order vacating conviction). Convicted 1982. 2004 113. Alan Gell. 114. Gordon Steidl. 115. Laurence Adams. 116. Dan L. Bright. 117. Ryan Matthews. 118. Ernest Ray Willis. 2005 119. Derrick Jamison. 120. Harold Wilson. 2006 121. John Ballard. 2007 122. Curtis McCarty. 123. Michael McCormick. 124. Jonathon Hoffman. 2008 125. Kennedy Brewer Mississippi. Convicted 1995. 126. Glen Edward Chapman North Carolina. Convicted 1995. 127. Levon "Bo" Jones[6] North Carolina. Convicted 1993. 128. Michael Blair Texas. 2009 129. Nathson Fields Illinois. Convicted 1986. 130. Paul House Tennessee. Convicted 1986. 131. Daniel Wade Moore Alabama. Convicted 2002. 132. Ronald Kitchen Illinois. Convicted 1988. 133. Herman Lindsey Florida. Convicted 2006. 134. Michael Toney Texas. Convicted 1999. (Toney later died in a car accident on October 3, 2009, just one month and a day after his exoneration.)[7]. 135. Yancy Douglas Oklahoma. Convicted 1997. 136. Paris Powell Oklahoma. Convicted 1997. 137. Robert Springsteen Texas. Convicted 2001. 2010 138. Anthony Graves Texas. Convicted 1994. 2011 139. Cory Maye Mississippi. Convicted 2004. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: GUEST Date: 27 Sep 11 - 10:12 PM Nice list Jose P.P. Please repeat again - and star those on "death row." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: MGM·Lion Date: 28 Sep 11 - 07:34 AM ~~ "do you not see that civilisation moves and must move on? Or do you propose to defend the slavery in Classical Greece, too?"~~ ,.,., You are the master of the misapprehension and the non sequitur, Richard. I 'defend' nothing. I simply point out that, sub specie aeternitatis, cap-pun [& slavery too for that matter] have been the norm for all but recent years ~~ extremely recent in the case of the first. And that there have been innumerable societies {all those preceding our own, in fact} from which the adjective 'civilised' could not be withheld by any rational person, & towards which no accusation of 'barbarity' could conceivably be held by any person of sense to lie, who have practised them, accepting them unquestioningly as normal. And would add that your 'move on' is a blatant begging of the question. And, as I have said before [leading to your fatuous catachresis 'barbarism'] the present situation is not set in any sort of metaphorical steel or concrete and could be reversed at any time. ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: Richard Bridge Date: 28 Sep 11 - 07:45 AM But those aspects of them would be "uncivilised" today. You really cannot defend them in the way you do, the more so if you deny that you are doing it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: MGM·Lion Date: 28 Sep 11 - 08:21 AM On this vexed question of "civilised' ~~ There is a clear distinction to be made between denouncing states or peoples who perform activites one doesn't approve of [cap-pun will serve as the immediate example] as "uncivilised", when such is patently not the case by any rational definition (China? USA? Singapore?)~~ ~~ and giving at one's *opinion* that one considers such-and-such conduct as "unworthy of a civilised country", which is merely and clearly a statement of opinion, not of fact, which others may or may not accept as reasonable. For example: The country which could produce the elaborate 1930s rallies which were the subject of Leni Riefenstahl's films was clearly one which had achieved a high degree of civilisation, by any reasonable definition of the term; but few would dispute nowadays the proposition that much of its conduct was unworthy of so civilised a nation. This seems to me an important distinction which Richard & others are failing to make, and are consequently struggling and fumbling in a state of confusion which is preventing their making any rational contribution to this discussion. ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: Will Fly Date: 28 Sep 11 - 08:42 AM Well, here's my two-penn'orth on all this, for what it's worth. I believe that the State ("nation"), which makes the laws by which its citizens live - regardless of whether that state is "civilised" (by whatever standard we choose) - should be morally superior to the individuals who comprise it. In other words, the State sets the standard and the code of conduct to which individuals aspire. In my view, it is morally wrong to take the life of another human being - and, yes, I understand the necessities and exigencies of war - but murder happens. The State which takes the life of the murderer is - in my view - no better, nor more moral than the murderer. At a philosophical level, I have never believed in capital punishment. If capital punishment does not exist, then judicial murder in error by the State cannot happen. It has happened - over and over again. There are well-documented cases in the UK - before it abolished capital punishment - of innocent people being hanged for murder. At a practical level, I have never believed in capital punishment. I don't know the facts about Troy Davis, but I do know this. If he didn't commit murder, then he too has been murdered in error. If he did commit murder, then the State is revealed as no better than him by killing him. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: MGM·Lion Date: 28 Sep 11 - 10:22 AM ---"You really cannot defend them in the way you do, the more so if you deny that you are doing it."--- .,.,. Only just noticed this small post a bit sandwiched above. Seems to be addressed to me. Not sure why I bother to respond, but I am at a bit of a loose end, so making R Bridge see sense will perhaps serve as a mission for today. I suppose he knows quite what he means by gnomic utterances like the above; but I genuinely doubt if anyone else does. Still, he seems to be continuing to accuse me of defending cap-pun & slavery because I simply state some facts about them. Again, Richard ~~ Are you sitting comfortably? Are you sure you are listening? OK then ····· I am not 'defending' anyone or anything. If I stated that Hitler was born in 1889, I should not be 'defending' him or his actions, I should simply be stating an incontrovertible fact about him. And if I point out that the majority, if not the totality, of states & nations throughout history have practised capital punishment, I am not 'defending' capital punishment, I am simply making a factually incontrovertible statement about it. And if I point out that the world is observably mutable, and that therefore the present situation might just not obtain permanently, I am not 'defending' a possible return to the ubiquity of capital punishment as desirable; I am just saying that it could happen. That's all. Got it now? If not, then just go away, please, & leave me alone. I have done. ~Michael~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 28 Sep 11 - 11:39 AM Nazi Germany was a highly civilised society too... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: MGM·Lion Date: 28 Sep 11 - 11:43 AM Exactly the point I made in mine of 0821 am, McGrath; and then went on to qualify it. What precise point were you trying to make in repeating it? ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 28 Sep 11 - 12:04 PM Basically the point is, I agree that "civilisation" as such has very little to do with it, and describing cruel societies as uncivilised or barbaric is merely a rhetorical trope. It's rather unfair to societies which can accurately classed as uncivilised or barbaric. The word savage has been misused in the same way. But I think that's actually understood by everyone, and needn't be laboured. It's a fault of our language. There doesn't seem to be an equivalent term that doesn't involve this kind of problem. Maybe one way would be that instead of describing state killing as "uncivilised" we should just call it a mark of a defective civilisation. One among many such marks which we share between us. I'm just glad that that is one which has been abandoned in most of the world that aspires to be civilised. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: MGM·Lion Date: 30 Sep 11 - 12:53 AM Just come across this ref'd on the Police Brutality In NY? thread:~ .,.,.,. "But the most gruesome element of the proceedings ... came from the highest court in the land, the bastion of American justice, the US supreme court in Washington. It was the supreme court that kept Davis waiting for four full hours, not knowing whether he was about to live or die, and then announced the execution could go ahead. Calmly, insouciantly..." Ed Pilkington ~ The Guardian .,,.,.., Honest now, gnu ~~ can you really call this 'a lenient system'? ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: gnu Date: 30 Sep 11 - 06:41 PM Soooo, what were they doing during those four hours... laughing and drinking? or thinking if there was any way to save him? Conjecture about WHY they took those four hours is bullshit. I do NOT believe they did this to be cruel. Prove that belief wrong and I'll accept your accusation. Otherwise, it's still what I said it was... NOT cruel but, IN FACT, lenient to the extreme to allow a man EVERY chance to prove he didn't do it. Once again, I find it odd that you you think he should have been executed without delay rather than being given 20+ years to prove he should not be executed. In any case, he is dead. Even tho he was given every opportunity to prove he should not be. Sad. Many things about this are sad. But, that/those discussion/discussions will never end either. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: Big Al Whittle Date: 30 Sep 11 - 09:29 PM 'Soooo, what were they doing during those four hours... laughing and drinking? or thinking if there was any way to save him?' I refer counsellor to my evidence given earlier in song form:- 'All those salaried suits with their law degrees listing the reasons why Your heart must stop, like a broken clock You must bid the light goodbye' The whole process is barbaric beyond belief and demeans a great nation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: gnu Date: 30 Sep 11 - 09:44 PM But, is it barbaric becuse it executes or is it DEEMED barbaric because it gives a person EVEREY chance to avoid execuction, thereby prolonging the wait for certain execution when the miserable son of a bitch slimey motherfucker is guilty of a sadistic crime beyond a reasonable doubt? A hypothetical question, of course. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Singing for Troy Davis (Georgia execution) From: Big Al Whittle Date: 30 Sep 11 - 11:36 PM What the hell? Get it off the statute books, It stinks in the nostrils of every civilised person. And i'm willing to bet it always did. Charles Dickens envisaged a time when it would no longer be used in England. I'm willing to bet there were decent humane people, quiet dignified voices speaking goodness in the face of the baying mob in every time period, and in every civilisation and every community. |
