'Occupy English Folk Music!'

Subject: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 05:30 AM

YEAH!!!!!

Bring in The Singer Songwriters!
Modernise it!
Take it OFF The Holy Shrine of All That is Holy!

Let THE PEOPLE hear The New Traditionalists, for THEY are The 99%!!

:0)

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 05:41 AM

Err what you on Lizzie? lol

Is the Holy (all that is) Traditional song?

Modernise it? In my view continue to create new songs which are not Navel gazing, but in the style of the Traditional songs

Is this anywhere near what you mean?

Ray

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 05:42 AM

There is a much easier way. Call contemporary acoustic music that (or some other suitable name) and continue to call folk music "folk music".

A but like Simon Cowell and "Rhythmix" (who are now called something else), really.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 05:43 AM

Ooops - a "bit".

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: GUEST,999
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 06:27 AM

Lemme see . . .

I will try to predict some of the coming posts.

We've already had Navel gazer, so yet to be is sniger snogwriter and whining whatever. People who've moved along with the times will defend songwriters and then the thread will become a mess.

I agree that the term 'folk' does not belong in the same sentence as songwriter. The only author worth his/her salt is anonymous, unless that songwriter writes in a traditional vein. Myopia 101. The tunnel gets peered into from both ends and then people wonder where the light went.

IMO, which is as good as IYO.

Have a nice day. And don't wear a wrist watch when you sing. It's anachronistic, as are nylon strings.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 07:09 AM

FFS - it's not about relative merits.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 07:17 AM

True, Richard. But putting one down thinking it makes the other better is stupid. Happens lots on threads like this.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: GUEST,999
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 07:43 AM

That unnamed guest was me.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 08:00 AM

When you were anon, your contribution was folk. You just blew it Bruce.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 08:02 AM

No, Al ~~ it was folk in style!

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 08:10 AM

LOL

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: johncharles
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 08:11 AM

'Occupy English Folk Music!'
A provocative title, encouraging an entirely spurious debate. There has never been a time,   when music in all its forms has been as accessible in a wide variety of formats as it is at the present.
I regularly attend folk clubs and often sing classics by Edith Piaf, great new songs by the likes of Steve Earl, The Decemberists, Tom Waites. They seem to go down as well as the traditional ballads which I greatly enjoy singing.
If I felt the clubs I attend frowned upon this sort of material I would go elsewhere; there are plenty of other venues for live music.
Where, how, and what people play develops organically and this is as it should be.
john

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 08:22 AM

Provocative, John?

No, merely a bit of fun...

Come ON, lighten up a bit... ;0)

That's what gets me about the English folk world, you ain't allowed to have fun. If you do, everyone jumps on you....It's one of the reasons I've walked away from it all...where once, I used to really LOVE it.
I couldn't take the Folk StormTroopers any longer. ;0)

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 08:51 AM

The Folk Police

One of my favourite sites.

(send me the fiver later, Nigel :-) )

DtG

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 08:59 AM

They are a figment of your imagination Lizzie. On Friday past, my band and I were asked to "Play some more of that rock and roll". It was Roud 126.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 09:01 AM

I hope you played the 1876 version of it, Richard...else.......

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 09:06 AM

Anyway, we'll all be marching on Cecil Sharpy House, with banners, tents and spare knickers, on Tuesday afternoon, to Take BACK the Music.

We, The 99%, or, if Bruce comes too, the 999&, will be bringing guitars, drums, singers, songwriters, some that do both AND play, all at the same time...and we shall be singing traditional songs back to front, upside down and inside out, with a funky rock beat booming out....

We will also be singing MANY songs from The New Tradition, which has no rules, regulations, legal documents, legal dates, professors, pedants or pains in the arses attached to it..

So there! ;0)

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: GUEST,999
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 09:06 AM

The problem as I see it from this side of the Atlantic--I have always detested the quaint 'this side of the pond' phrase--is that when the Folk Scare of the later 1950s and 1960s took place, music was being written as a method of putting lyrics with 'deeper' meaning into songs. People got tired of somewhat vacuous words/lyrics and that was the beginning of the end for what was loosely called pop in those days--at least the end for many folks.

We can all recall songs that 'punched the ticket' for us in various eras of music: for me the 1940s was encapsulated by such pieces as In the Mood. The '50s by Brenda Lee and later Holly. The '60s saw a split even further. People like Dylan came along and put content into songs for a seemingly disenfranchised generation. Ochs and Paxton added teeth to what became 'protest' songs, and it got labelled folk. Hell, I didn't name it folk. It got named folk.

Most acoustic songwriters I know who do not write in the so-called traditional vein hate the appellation 'folk'. It's a kiss of death, and it doesn't at all describe the music. Those who love traditional music (and there are many songs in the traditional area I love) have the right not only to do so but also the right to be proud of the tradition. However, denigrating the work of one set of songwriters does nothing but make musicians look cheap.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 09:08 AM

Well said, 999! x

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 09:24 AM

Bruce ~ You might be interested in following from Michael Quinion's World Wide Words. I was surprised at the age of the term "The Pond" for the Atlantic~~

Q From Ari: Would you happen to know how the term the big pond came about in reference to the Atlantic ocean? The inference obviously is that it's a humorous and ironic label, but do you know the history?

A For enlightenment here, I turned to the Second Edition of the Oxford English Dictionary, which has quite a lot of notes on big pond and its variations, such as great pond and herring-pond.

The sayings are surprisingly old, with the first example of great pond being recorded in 1641 and herring-pond in 1686. Early examples are all from writers in various British North American colonies and so it's reasonable to suppose that the expressions originated there.

After all, aside from the comparatively few sailors who travelled these waters, colonists would have been the people most aware of the size of the Atlantic Ocean. After you had survived the stormy and protracted sea crossing from Britain, you either tried to forget about it or you made a joke of it.

~M~

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: foggers
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 09:34 AM

Darn it, I just sold my pop up tent; otherwise I'd be there in the midst of the struggle to free us from the po-faced folk police, whether they are figments of me imagination or not.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 09:38 AM

I made a bet with myself before opening this thread. I was right...

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: GUEST,999
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 09:40 AM

Michael, thank you for the post. It's the present-day usage (affectation) that grates my cajones. My grandmother and grandfather both crossed 'in steerage' earlier in the twentieth century, and so far as they were concerned, the Atlantic was a term always preceded by 'that bloody'. My grandfather was sick for a week and my gran for half a fortnight.

Perhaps detest was too strong a word. Dislike would be more apt. Hope I caused no one any offence.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: GUEST,999
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 09:41 AM

BTW, I feel that way about the term 'veggies'.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 09:59 AM

Have you STILL not got it Lizzie? The form is fluid. There is no need for an "1876 version" as a matter of style, although the exact words at different times can be interesting (eg Pretty Peggy of Derby) as can the joinder of words with other tunes (eg the Carthy/Swarb "Byker Hill" - or Willie of Windsbury).

Maybe I should counter-march, with "Reclaim English Folk music" in the style of "Reclaim the night" or even "Slutwalk".

I'll play folk songs - rocked up or not as I please - and I'll also play things that aren't - again rocked up or not as I please, I could probably upset many with my take on "Sally Free and Easy" - but what I would not do is to confuse one for the other.

Perhaps if you'd paid attention at school...

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: johncharles
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 10:03 AM

Dear Richard, The six letter "S" word. What were you thinking about?
john

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 10:10 AM

Oooooo 'eck, don't get me started on the Slutwalk again...

Now come ON, Richard, you're always going on about the 1947 version of what Folk Music is, as it was laid down in 1929 an' all...

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: theleveller
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 10:23 AM

Ah, but what IS folk music? (Runs away laughing insanely.)

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 10:36 AM

I need a Facebook 'like' button, levels!! :0)

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: John P
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 10:46 AM

Lizzie, why is it that the threads you start that you claim are all in fun and intended to lighten things up a bit all take a pretty serious dig at other people? You seem to be upset about the way many people approach traditional music, and rightly inveigle against putting down other peoples' music. Maybe you should take your own advice and not be so dismissive of traditional music lovers. You might consider learning a thing or two about how people REALLY feel about and play traditional music. You could start by re-reading everything Richard Bridge has written in this thread.

Your bit of fun is doing exactly the thing your that your bit of fun is complaining about.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: BTNG
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 10:50 AM

which laid the foundations for 1954. If you were told what folk music is, you'd have to be killed and your remains buried beneath the floor of the basement of Cecil Sharp House

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 11:07 AM

Nooo, John, I used to *be* one of those who adored traditional music, but er.....I was hanged, drawn and quarterd for it.....to the point where they'd actually rejoice at having my remains to view, but would refuse to bury them within Cecil Sharpy House, due to the fact I might contaminate the building...

BTNG, I'm chuckling...

Any moment now there'll be so many complaints about this thread that, just as happened yesterday in The Amazon Rainforest with 'Occupy Belo Monte' they'll be sending in the 'Shock Troops' to disperse those who dare to try to 'Occupy English Folk Music'.....

;0)

Come on, John, lighten up...it's what English folk music needs, honestly...

Singer Songwriters! Forward Ye, with Humour! Hold Thy Happy Banners High!

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 11:21 AM

If you do, everyone jumps on you....

That is something I have never seen happen in a folk club or folk session.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: r.padgett
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 11:25 AM

Flippin 'eck

Ray

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 11:27 AM

Kevin, you've never been to the Mosh Pit Folk Club.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 11:38 AM

So, we replace traditional English folk music with something more modern, yet get very angry at anyone who wants to destroy the traditions of other cultures? Advocating the wholesale destruction of English culture is a bit fun but trying to replace the culture of one-legged , blind, dyslexic, lesbian Walloons (or whoever is in vogue at the moment) is a mortal sin? Anyone mentioned the term ironic yet? :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: theleveller
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 11:47 AM

I don't want to occupy folk music. The renovations would take too long and I'm not getting any younger. In fact, parts of it would have to be demolished and rebuilt from scratch to make it habitable - and you'd probably never get permission to put in decent plumbing or central heating. No, I'd rather stay in my caravan on Singersongwriter Common listening to Ralph McTell singing Gypsy.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 11:48 AM

Why not just install a truth-in-advertising campaign? If people have the right to ding whatever they want, don't listeners have the right to listen to whatever they want?

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: GUEST,999
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 11:59 AM

With you 100% on that, Dick.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: johncharles
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 12:08 PM

Perhaps we could have a Show of Hands on the merits of Lizzie's proposal to 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
john

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: John P
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 12:11 PM

don't listeners have the right to listen to whatever they want?

This is the only sensible attitude toward the singer-songwriter/folk musician thing. In fact, it's the only reasonable attitude toward life in general . . .

Lizzie, painting all traditional musicians with a brush that only applies to a few is pretty much the same as saying all black folks can be defined by the actions of one or two. Would a thread based on that concept be lighthearted fun? C'mon, let's put white folks in charge of all the civil rights organizations! It'll be fun!

Do you really not get it?

I'm all for lighthearted fun, but rarely when it involves putting people in a pigeonhole of your own making and then laughing at them because you think they are in it.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Folkiedave
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 12:26 PM

I've been occupying folk music.

Week last Wednesday I went to Roy Bailey's birthday bash. He did singer singer writer stuff from a wide range of people.

Last weekend my wife and I went to and helped at and sold s/hand folk books at a singing weekend. Various sorts of singing - from traditional to modern singer-songwriter. Heard a great song about never being able to find a press-gang when you needed one!

Sunday night went to a different singing session.

Monday a mixed music and singing session.

Gig Thursday,

Last night I went to see and hear a young singer called James Findlay who sang and played fiddle, guitar and concertina across the wide range of this music. Tam Lin and Childe Owlet too!

From the audience there was a great song about closing down libraries and a Tom Waits song,

In between I produced and presented a radio show which included a long interview with Bob and Margaret Fagan (James Fagan's parents) They were into political songs, and still are.

Lizzie is that what you mean by "Occupy"?

Or are you simply talking round spherical objects about something you spend ages writing and whinging about on Mudcat about but rarely seem to do?

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: BTNG
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 12:28 PM

we're SO proud of you folkiedave, so VERY proud, name droppers never did impress me though

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 12:32 PM

Sheesh! (to use one of LC's favourite phrases). Another thread started on the premise that people who listen to British traditional music (Me! Me!) never listen to anything else and have some kind of jihad going on against all other music.

And that there are only two types of music.

When there's music this good in the world, who gives a shit about rerunning this same old story?: Omar Souleyman

Now I'm going to listen to some Peter Bellamy. After that maybe some Neil Young - then some Lynyrd Skynyrd for balance. Then I'll blast off to Jupiter with Sun Ra and come back down to earth with Mick Softley. Oooh! Life without limits...

(Anyone want to talk about Michael Chapman whilst we're on the subject of singer songwriters, by the way? A true genius...)

UK trad is one tiny corner of the music world. Many of the albums only sell a few hundred copies and no-one got rich off it. If you're going to occupy anywhere, choose somewhere less ridiculous. IMHO, of course.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Will Fly
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 12:43 PM

Mike Chapman eh? Now there's a name... Saw him a few times at the Cousins. I believe he became a farmer. Still around though, and still playing, as far as I know.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: BTNG
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 12:52 PM

"Another thread started on the premise that people who listen to British traditional music (Me! Me!) never listen to anything else"

I'm listening to Eric Clapton, Jack Bruce and Ginger Baker, you remember Cream, right? Perhaps a little Cyril Davies All-Stars, then Ralph Vaughan Williams and cap it all with Frank Zappa.

God, lifes wonderful isn't it? LOL

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 01:26 PM

Good heavens - the Cyril Davies All-Stars. Yes, I quite liked their stuff but it was a bit pickled in aspic in the 1940s version of blues, wasn't it? I liked it when blues progressed - but you see it was defined by a musical structure and that was retained. Folk music is not defined by musical structure as otherwise it could not be a global concept. And the 1954 definition (still the best I have seen) does not purport to set out requirements of style.

I'm sorry to others who have obviously been driven to distraction by LIssie's views on sex. I didn't realise that she had obsessed about slutwalk to the extent mentioned above. I think it is admirable. I suppose I should have guessed.

I don't suppose the idea of folkies jumping on each other would be complete without mentioning a former member of the (aptly named in this case) Loose Women morris side (they hail from the village of Loose, pronounced Loooooooooooooz, in Kent, who was expelled for bringing the morris into disrepute. I thought she deserved a medal, but I am to fat and old and ugly ever to have been invited to any of her parties - and MUCH to fat old ugly selfconscious and readily embarrassed to have gone even if invited.   And I'm not telling you who I know did go...

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 01:28 PM

PS - it is "Slutwalk" that I think admirable.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Will Fly
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 01:50 PM

Cyril Davies and the All-Stars were the dogs ballocks - a damned good hard-driving band, '40s or not. I still have their seminal EP "Country Line Special", etc. - and still play it.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 01:52 PM

Yes, well....you apparently love women dressed as sluts, Richard...
I want something far more them.

And yes, yes, I know they feel they 'have the right' to dress however they want and not get molested etc etc...but actually I happen to think that's dumbed down crap to be honest. I've never dressed as a slut nor do I ever intend to...too much self respect to flaunting various parts of me all over the place.

You want to see my Body?
Then you damn well see my Soul first.

And if you fuck with my Soul, you walk...faster than a Slut Walk Protest in pouring rain.

Right, that's Richard's Dose of Sex over for today.....

Now, where were we?

Ah, yes...

Well, so far Leveller's scored 20/10 for his posts 'cos they've made me curl up! xx << Leveller

As for some of the others, well the Show of Hands one was good John c...I liked that a lot.. lol


Earlier on, in another thread called 'What is Folk Music? This is!' I put in this man's music:

Robert Mirabal - Painted Caves

And most folks fell over sideways with laughter, telling me it wasn't folk music at all...not even when I put another link in to Robert playing just the flute, on his own..That wasn't 'it' either.

You see, were I sitting round a Campfire with the American Indians I would be welcomed, respected and treated with much dignity by them as they'd introduce me to their stories, their songs.

However...sadly, when I came to sit at The Campfire of English Folk Music, I had dung thrown in my face and then The Witch Hunt started...so you'll excuse me if I choose to sit with the American Indians a while....to get my Strength back and Spirit back.

There are some folks on here who took my deep love of this music and went out of their way to ensure that ANY artist about whom I wrote was ridiculed, reviled and made to feel that to have me daring to write about them was the absolute kiss of death...

Folk StormTroopers?

No, way too mild a world for The Witch Hunter Generals who tried to get me banned from every board going...

Maybe I'll settle for The English Folk Fascists, some of whom are in Folk Against Fascism of course, and hey, you gotta see the funny side of that one! ;0)

Then there was the ARSS Campaign, which we won't go into again...save to say it was a vindictive time where all singer songwriters were again, vilified and made fun of, as being second class musicians due to the songs they wrote and how they sang them..

No, I'm afraid 'Occupy English Folk Music' is still on...we'll just have to give 'levels' some Vitamins and get him all muscled up to fight the Good Fight in the name of Music For All!   

And now, I'm going back to Robert Mirabal and his beautiful folk music.....

:0)