BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)

Subject: BS: Public Sector skivers
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 05:20 AM

The sun is shining, nice day for the lefties to have a strike and cause havoc!!

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers
From: Silas
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 05:23 AM

And just what are you up to today, let me guess, hiding under the bridge waiting for weary travellers like most trolls?

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 05:30 AM

Quite unlike the stinking rich bankrupting the banks and causing havoc - they get knighthoods and bonuses for that, Bozo.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers
From: GUEST,Psychomorris
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 06:04 AM

Bonzo About time you stopped listening to and reading propaganda reports about the well to do Public worker pensions and maybe speak to those who work in the public sector. The vast majority of those workers have always had poor wages in relationship to the private sector.
The off set was that they would have a guaranteed pension.I speak as one who has been a dockyard worker, triple qualified nurse and a lecturer. Now retired after 40 plus years of working I receive less than £10,000 a year for my giving to the community throughout my working life. I would be out on strike today if not retired.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 06:09 AM

Tough, find another job.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers
From: theleveller
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 06:33 AM

Bozo, thanks for giving us this opportunity to express our total support for the strikers against this corrupt government and the greedy bankers and accountants who have it in their pockets.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers
From: Silas
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 06:34 AM

I don't know why we bother responing to Bonzos posts we all know he is a dickhead.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 06:58 AM

Of course, I'm forgetting, the arseholes delivering 13 years of labour mess have absolutely nothing to do with it, how could I possibly forget that?????????

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 07:05 AM

In order that we can have an informed discussion Bozo, perhaps you could enlighted us as to how Public Service worker pensions are made up and how they compare to private pensions of both blue and white collar workers in the private sector, that way we would be able to come to a considered opinion. I look foward to your next contribution with interest so that I can formulate my own position.
Cheers

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers
From: GUEST,Shining Wit
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 07:05 AM

Bonzo - truly you are my teacher.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 07:32 AM

Poor old Robert Maxwell had to walk the plank for doing on a much smaller scale what the government has done with Teachers pensions. Perhaps (you're a lawyer Richard) you can explain, how the hell they get away with it.

They should be called to account. I'm not sure strike action is the way. They should be challenged in the courts. Its not right.

For example, when I started teaching - I was told I could claim a pension from the age of 55. At twenty one, the age of 55 is as remote as the planet of Jupiter - so I didn't pay much attention when I was told that Heath government were paying below the legal return on an investment, for our pension fund.

When I got to 55. I found that sometime in the interim, they had put the age of claiming the pension up to 60. I mean - that's five years money they did me out of. How are they allowed to do this?

When i enter into an agreement, I can't change what I've agreed to pay out, just because it doesn't suit me.

Reaction has been a long time coming. I think maybe because more of us are surviving to claim our pensions. But i still don't understand it. Can anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 07:38 AM

State pension + private pension = not enough for our standard of living, so my wife worked pensionable age + 10 years, and so I continue to work 4 days per week.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers
From: melodeonboy
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 07:43 AM

Hmmm.. I thought the word "skiver" applied to someone who is paid to do a job, and either doesn't do the job or doesn't turn up for work.

I fail to see how that word applies to someone forfeiting a day's pay in order to exercise their legal right to protest.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers
From: theleveller
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 08:02 AM

That's all very well Bozo, and you should feel grateful that you can do that. But what about police officers or firemen (or even bin men, for that matter) - people who have a tough, physically demanding job, maybe compounded by the added stress of working unsociable shift patterns? Did you know that the average life expectancy of a police office after retirement is 5 years? Their pensions were supposed to take this into account, but now they're being slashed. Get a different job? Fine - my policeman son is seriously thinking of going to Canada where working conditions are much better. Another dedicated and conscientious officer lost to the force.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 08:29 AM

Bozo, your response only tells me about your particular situation it does not tell me anything about the overall make-up of public and private pension plans and therefore I still cannot form a reasoned opinion on the information you provide, is it perchance because you do not have any information on which to base your position

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers
From: Edthefolkie
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 08:38 AM

I've never risen to the bait before, but sorry, this time I couldn't resist.

When Bonzo loses his faculties and collapses in the street, a public sector skiver will pick him up and drop him off in a hospital, where a variety of public sector skivers will get him back on his feet. If he is too far gone, further (ill paid) public sector skivers will tuck him up at night, wipe his arse, stick a catheter in his little willy (hopefully frequently) and assess him for brain function. At this point he may have a problem!

Never mind Bonzo, there's always the private sector to help you out, and jolly good luck to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers
From: GUEST,Shining Wit
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 08:52 AM

What Bonzo doesn't realise is if he falls on hard times then he'll be one of those no-one gives a shit about.

Also, if Bonzo and his missus are still working after retirement it means they're the sort of aspirational pseudo-upper-middle-class who will never be rich enough to avoid the perils that the rest of society face and because he hangs around with toffs he thinks he is one when in reality he's a wanabee, an outsider who can afford to hob-knob it but will never, ever be one of them. I moved to a posh village when I was sixteen and was amazed by these people. They equated money with class, when in reality they didn't have the wit to see beyond their own delusions. There were posh people there, but they were never braggarts or flash like Bonzo, whose boorish view of life betrays his origins.

You ain't rich enough Bonzo, because if you were you wouldn't give a toss about the strike, ragging lefties or making the inane, trolling comments you make on this board. You're not even close. You're not even a shill for the people you aspire to join - people who really don't care and can see through you like the emperor's new clothes. As can many of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 09:41 AM

Reeling with the slap Bonzo offered me in starting this thread, I choose not to react in kind.

Don't you worry Bonzo... since I am about to be made redundant from my low paid council job, I won't be a strain on your tax purse for much longer. Consider it an early Christmas present.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers
From: theleveller
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 09:54 AM

I rather think that 'skivers' better applies to those people who employ accountants to weasel them out of paying the taxes that support our public services. Er...now what is it you do for a living, Bozo?

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 09:56 AM

When Bonzo loses his faculties and collapses in the street, a public sector skiver will pick him up and drop him off in a hospital, where a variety of public sector skivers will get him back on his feet. If he is too far gone, further (ill paid) public sector skivers will tuck him up at night, wipe his arse, stick a catheter in his little willy (hopefully frequently) and assess him for brain function. At this point he may have a problem!

......yes, in a private hospital of course!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 10:13 AM

why do you call yourself Bonzo3legs? Are you from the Isle of Man, or something like that?

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 10:22 AM

The average public sector pension is £4000. Hardly gold plated.

Teachers in the state sector get lower pay than in the private knowing that the employer puts in a pension contribution. The combined contribution = 20% of pay.   You have to work 40 years to get a half pay pension.

The teachers pension was reviewed 4 years ago by the Governments chosen actuaries. They altered the terms ( put up the contribution ) and increased the retirement age to 65 to account for increasing longevity. We accepted that.

The teachers want to know what has changed so much in the last 4 years (apart from the bankers playing lotto with everybodies money ) to mean another increase in the contributions? So far, no figures have been produced to substantiate the claims. The negotiations seems to be based on the need to reduce the Government deficit rather than current costings of the scheme.

One third of new entrants to teaching leave within 3 years.

Hope these facts help to elucidate the issue.
FloraG.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 10:23 AM

He has a lovely 3 legged border collie (I think) named Bonzo... Posted a video of lovely doggie playing catch on mudcat a while back. Sigh... I cannot reconcile the obvious care he has for Bonzo and the nasty uncalled for insults he heaps on people and self-congratulatory bragging about his wonderful life. The incongruity is a puzzle.

I suspect narcissism. He seems to crave being in the center of a storm of his own making. Sad isn't it.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers
From: Silas
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 10:36 AM

Look, he's just a wanker - live with it and don't feed the troll.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 10:48 AM

I have pointed out before that Bozo does not understand class.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers
From: GUEST,Shining Wit
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 10:52 AM

He's probably a really nice bloke in reality who would never behave to people in daily life as he does on the internet. After all, anyone who owns a border collie can't be all bad. Even a tory.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 11:02 AM

David Cameron is on This Morning tomorrow.

I have asked them via Facebook, to ask him if its true he swears and throws cutlery at Larry the Cat, just because Larry can't catch all the mice.

If its true, I think he's a dirty dog. Larry deserves a loving home.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 11:53 AM

There seems to be a huge discrepancy between wage rates and pension rights in the public and private sectors.

I was listening to a debate today on radio, between a NHS nurse and an "accounts manager" in some private corporation. the AM earned £15.ooo per year with no pension, while the nurse earned over £30.000, with a "final salary pension" with a large lump sum.

The nurse was going on strike against cuts to her pension, while the AM was not....possibly because she was uable to afford the time off.

People only seem to care about their own personal financial wellbeing in this society......time to sweep the place clean.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers
From: EBarnacle
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 12:14 PM

How many years had each put in to earn those salaries. Ake, who are the strikes about except those who do not have a real lining amount coming in? I would bet that the "people" managing the account manager have comfortable salaries and pensions.

When did a salary of 30,000 pounds get to be a good income in today's world?

It is quite likely that our dog owning friend basks in his canine friend's unconditional approval.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 12:17 PM

Well all I can see is that very low paid workers (dinner ladies/men, hospital cleaners, school assistants, care workers, office admin) opting out of the LPGS, which was making money for the government by their contributions.

They simply won't be able to afford to pay into the scheme.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers
From: Acorn4
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 12:25 PM

Getting public and private sector workers at each others' throats is just a cunning "divide and rule" ploy - everyone who's done their shift should be entitled to a reasonable pension.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 12:30 PM

poor sad nasty bonzo..

we know he is experiencing very real bleak problems in his life anyone would be finding difficult to cope with...

- unfortunately, he is taking out his spite and bitter hatefulness of his world
on the very people
in our community who would rally round to offer genuine friendship and help..

What can we ever do with someone like bonzo.. ??

most of us know similar damaged hostile lonely folks in our real world lives,
and whatever positive friendship & practical comfort we can make available they constantly fight off and reject..????

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 12:30 PM

It`s painfully obvious that even if we taxed the grasping City folk till Doomsday there would still not be enough afford all we want. Why can the government not continue to borrow and borrow and borrow.........

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers
From: Musket
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 12:48 PM

The issue as ever is misinformation, "terminological inexactitudes" and mischief.

Regardless of the private vs public debate, and paying into both my private scheme and more recently into the public scheme, the differences are few in my case, a hell of a lot in the cases of many. You can't just cherry pick examples to prove the point of many, whichever side of the argument you are on.

The NHS pension was heavily revised only three or so years ago, and after the agreement reached, people were told the outcome, whilst chipping away a bit, was to last the next thirty or so years. Three years on and revision.... At present, the NHS pot has more coming in than it pays out. If and when it reaches the point where it pays out ore than it brings in, that will be because of fewer jobs, lower paid jobs and frankly, those on the higher salaries deciding that the amount paid into the pension could be put into a small house mortgage, offer somewhat by rent and after ten years, a nest egg that properly invested will look after them in old age far more than the lottery of what the government of the day is going to rape to pay for bad decisions.

I don't know much about other public pension pots but I do know NHS employees pay more in and get less out than the "average" public pension deal that is banded around as being the norm. And I suspect many other public pension schemes are similar..

I may be a retired businessman who used to wring his hands and want to employ more people in The UK but couldn't take the risk sometimes, and I may sympathise with CBI thoughts over the years, but to put a tax on public workers in order to balance the books after lack of regulation of the finance industry isn't right, isn't proper and smacks of ideology that the Lib Dems must be proud to be associated with. Really proud, eh Mr Alexander? Hey Vince! What price a Ministerial car?

I'm not in a union so not on strike, although I have public sector work and income. Many of my colleagues are though, and I don't blame them because governments break agreements so unions are silly to rely on them. If unions are being radicalised back to '70s levels and I sincerely hope they aren't, it isn't the shadow of Red Ken, Scargill or Jack Jones, it is the goading philosophy of Francis Maude, hell bent on pushing people so you can blame them.

Worst thing is, there is no alternative. None at all. There is no party in opposition, no plan B from the opposition front bench and no influence the people can bear to get this lot to act responsibly to the electorate, not just the ones who vote for them self serving.

Osborne rattles on about low interest rates. mmmm... They can be low to reflect a vibrant but careful economy or they can be low to reflect a stagnant economy. Guess which ours is? I'll give you a clue, it's the same as Japan in the mid '90s just before the bubble burst.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 01:23 PM

' because governments break agreements so unions are silly to rely on them'

Morally, its not right though, is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers
From: Paul Burke
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 02:15 PM

Bozo skiving on a STATE pension when he didn't have the foresight to put enough into his PRIVATE pension? Be principled, man: reap what you sowed, sod off and starve.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers
From: Cats
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 03:31 PM

OK, So I thought he might have fun with the speech I made today at the Plymouth Rally....

I chose to work in the public sector.

I chose to enter into a contract with the government whereby if I put aside part of my salary they would give it back to me when I reached 60. They have chosen to break this contract.

I chose to come out on strike today to stand with my colleagues from all parts of the public sector in whatever job they do. I am supported in this by a mandate from the members of NASUWT with an overwhelming 82% of the vote.

Successive governments chose to squander my deferred salary and spend it everything but our pensions. Now it is time to pay out they can't and they are blaming us. So what has happened to the £470 million pounds there should still be in the pot and why can't they find it.

This government chose to hit the workers directly in their pockets and the pensioners directly in theirs. They chose to increase the retirement age, chose to freeze pay and yesterday chose to make the public sector work even longer, pay more, get less and in case we forgot, cut the promised 2% pay rise after the imposed 2 year pay freeze to just 1%. In my classroom 1% of nothing is still nothing! And they chose make even more public sector workers unemployed. But, unlike all of us standing shoulder to shoulder today, they do not have a mandate to do this. The coalition government's proposals are driven by ideology, not by evidence and not by economic need.


It's time to tell the truth about Public sector pensions. Its time to dispel the rumours and lies that this government has been spreading. Public sector pensions are not gold plated. After working with children with special needs for 36 years my pension will be less than £8,000.

It isn't even as if the extra £100 per month that teachers will have to pay towards their pensions will be going into the pension pot. It's going to be used to pay off the public debt which has worsened under this government. I did some sums the other day and realised that it will take all the extra contributions of all the staff in all the Plymouth secondary schools to pay one bankers annual bonus.

It may have slipped the governments notice but we are all taxpayers too. For every £1 spent on public sector pensions, £2.50 is spent on tax relief for pensions in the private sector – often as tax relief for the pensions of the 1% super rich. Now who could we possibly know in that bracket?

The fight for justice for working people doesn't end today. Tomorrow NASUWT starts the revolution, the quiet revolution and we will fight to protect pay, jobs and working conditions. We won't be stopping your children going to school or stopping their education or enjoying all the things schools do at Christmas like some sections of the right wing media would have you believe. You will see us taking a stand to defend quality education in our schools, quality education for your children and your grandchildren. We will be standing up for standards and I know everyone of you here will be backing us all the way and we can rely on each and everyone of you to support our campaign.   We are choosing to stand up for quality state education for all, we are choosing to Stand up For Standards.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 04:46 PM

I began paying into a private pension scheme....after a few years, I realised that there was something fishy going on in the economy and froze the pension plan.
Many of my workmates continued paying right through... some are not even going to recover what they payed in.
My frozen pension paid out many times more than the amount I had contributed.

We are in the hands of con men and robbers.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers
From: Ed T
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 06:23 PM

Someone mention Dickhead? Here are the lyrics:

"Dickhead"

Why are you being a dickhead for
Stop being a dickhead
Why are you being a dickhead for
You're just fucking up situations

Why are you being a dickhead for
Stop being a dickhead
Why are you being a dickhead for
You're just fucking up situations

Shiny floor, slippery feet
Lights are dim, my eyes can't meet
The reflection that turns my images
Upside down so I can't see

Think you know everything
You really don't know nothing
I wish that you were more intelligent
So you could see that what you are doing
Is so shitty, to me

Thirty five
People couldn't count
On two hands the amount of times you made me stop
Stop and think why are you being such a dickhead for

Stop being a dickhead,
Why are you being a dickhead for
You're just fucking up situations
Why are you being a dickhead for
Stop being a dickhead,
Why you being a dickhead for
You're just fucking up situations

Stop, now don't show
Just have a think before you
Will you, stop, now don't show
Just have a think before you

Will you stop, no don't show
Just have a think before you
Will you stop, don't show
Will you just have a think before you

My brain and my bones don't want to take, this anymore
No my brain and my bones don't want to take, this anymore
No my brain and my bones don't want to take with this anymore
No my brain and my bones don't want to take, this anymore, so

Why are you being a dickhead for
Stop being a dickhead
Why are you being a dickhead for
You're just fucking up situations

Why are you being a dickhead for
Stop being a dickhead
Why you being a dickhead for
You're just fucking up situations

Kate Nash

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 06:29 PM

Mither - you demonstrate the need.

Aux barricades.

Let the tumbrils roll.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 08:03 PM

Cats, as a sister of four teachers and granddaughter of two teachers and past student of some remarkable teachers, I have tears in my eyes after reading your speech. I am proud to be able to tell folks about "an awesome teacher" whom I *know* online...well-done and may you and your colleagues know there are many, many of us over here who support your efforts. We've got some of the same kind of things happening over here.

Thanks, again,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: Leadfingers
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 09:08 PM

Funny - I saw the thread title and immediately thought " Bonzo " .

I took early retirement from my day job as my boss wouldn't let me take holiday time when I needed an odd afternon for paid gigs , and also because so many Company Pension Schemes had gone under , and I thought I wouldnt last till 65 without a breakdown as the Pressure to
"Do The Job" was getting bloody silly !

LORD ! Am I Glad I am no longer part of the Sad Working Majority !

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 01:10 AM

TheSilentOne is a lecturer and in the last year he and team he leads have come under unbearble pressure. Increased class sizes (more students than there are computers to sit them at) more classes, more hours. He has team members off with stress and 2 are leaving at the end of the year. When a member of his team is off he has to absorb their work. TSO has more after school meetings, parent and open evenings he is required to attend. He spends at least one full day (early am to late pm) doing lesson plans and marking papers. Sometimes both days on the weekend are taken up with work. Some evenings as well and some mornings.

I worry because I can see how tired he is.

I have seen my council restructure a number of service areas, making the young, fit (and more in need of a job) redundant while denying voluntary redundancy to older long term workers, increasing their workloads until the quit or retire early under the pressure. This psychological manipulation of the workforce to acheive the best financial outcome for the council.

What happened to work life balance?    Week in and out we get treated to the weekend jollies of our CEO, via her blog. Nice that she has the money and time to take part in leisure activities.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: Cats
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 01:43 AM

Thanks Katlaughing. I feel very privelidged to be in a position where I am able to do this... and am listened to. I did have one heckler so I just said if he would do me the courtesy of listening then I would quite happily speak to him face to face afterwards. He shut up.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 03:34 AM

Am I to presume that the lack of enlightenment requested from Bozo is because he cannot find the justifications to support his statement...........................?

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: Penny S.
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 04:01 AM

I went to a strike meeting yesterday - so I'm retired, but I didn't do what I usually do. And I went up to town and saw the tail end of the march - by that time more police than marchers, and an odd fracas with people who were not, from their appearance, on strike from any sort of job. One was hit by a policeman for no apparent reason. (Hand, no weapon.)

I gleaned a few useful bits of information. The teachers' pensions, like the NHS version quoted by Ian Mather, are, after the agreed changes increasing contributions and delaying retirement, making a net contribution to the nation's budget. Not only affordable, but more than affordable. And, like the NHS's, supposedly agreed for a distant future, not to be renegotiated in three years.

The current "negotiation", which is supposed to be something we should not challenge by striking, is a redefined process, like the redefined "consultation". In other words, they say what they are going to do, and regardless of what the other side says, that is what is going to be done.

The unfair private pensions used to be largely, as recently as 1997, on the same sort of principle and value as public pensions. Now few of them are, and the retired private workers will need support from benefits such as pension credits, from the tax payer, from the national budget which is supported by taxes from public workers, retired public workers, and that above need income from public workers pension contributions. This is something that needs correction, not by reducing public workers' pensions, but by bringing the way that private pensions are run back to what they used to be.

In some cases, private executives' pensions are protected in a way that their employees' pensions are not. So, for example, the workers for the company Farepack, when it went bust, lost all their pensions, as the customers lost all their money. The executives' pensions could not be drawn on by the liquidator, and they are still drawing them.

For every year that a teacher works over the age of 60, their age at death reduces by one year (data from the Teacher Support Network - used to be the Teachers Benevolent Fund). Thus those who manage to teach until 68 will die 8 years younger than they would otherwise, and will thus save the nation 16 years of pension payout. The government actuaries will know this. The changes are predicated on making people die earlier. (I suspect that this data will change as observations from staff working under the new conditions feeds in. I suspect the graph will turn out to be a curve, not a straight line, and the government will save even more.)

There was also some data concerning deaths during employment, from heart attacks, and from suicide in people in their 40s and 50s. There seemed to be more than in other occupations. But I can't quite remember the details. Also from the TSN, see above.

These are not the days or situation of Mr Chips, able to teach small classes the same lessons for many years. I left at 61 (that's one year less to live) because there was yet another reorganisation of the curriculum coming in. Mr Gove (anyone see the picture of him on a picket line?) thinks that larger classes are a good idea. Mr Gove should try teaching 50 children, and marking 50 maths, English, history and science books every night for a week, together with lesson planning. So should Bonzo, before he talks of skivers.

Most of the people at the meeting were going home to do marking and preparation - some strike.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 04:37 AM

MPs have a final salary pension scheme with a large public contribution. We're all in this together, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: autolycus
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 05:49 AM

No havoc, apparently, anyway.

Public sector workers do 1-day strikes to not cause havoc.

Bankers may nearly bring down the entire system [unlike 'ordinary' working people] and they STILL don't have to strike for increased salaries.

Unions have been spectacularly quiet for the last 25 years and yet we're in a storm of financial crises.

'Oo was it wot dun it?

P.S. Note how carefully Bonzo cherrypicks his way thru the arguments/posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 05:52 AM

My father was a teacher and then headmaster for over 40 years, my mother worked as a school secretary for 25 years, my sister worked as a language teacher for over 30 years and my wife worked in adult education for 26 years. None of them would strike under any circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: MikeL2
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 05:55 AM

hi
In nearly 60 years of working in several type of professions I am glad to say that I have never been called out on strike in my total career.
I was a union member in some cases and not in others.

I believe in the right to strike and feel that the Unions involved do have a good case to do so in this particular instance.

The various sides to the issue are set out earlier in this thread with very predictable opinions made on both sides.

Could I just muse about a Government that declared a day's holiday for the Royal Wedding the whole of the UK and then castigates Unions for taking action to raise concerns over their welfare. For the strike they quote various "fag paper" estimations about the cost of lost production to the British taxpayers.

Course.....Dave,George et al went to the Wedding....hmmmm.

Cheers

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: autolycus
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 05:58 AM

The way to solve the pension crisis

http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 06:07 AM

you're still avoiding a rational discussion Bozo, do you actually have any information on which to base your first assertion that it was a nice day for lefties to strike and cause havoc, support your argument with facts and figures ............if you are capable of such

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: theleveller
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 06:21 AM

"My father was a teacher and then headmaster for over 40 years, my mother worked as a school secretary for 25 years, my sister worked as a language teacher for over 30 years and my wife worked in adult education for 26 years. None of them would strike under any circumstances."

Times have changed, Bozo, and life has passed you by. You've just demonstrated how far this tawdry government has gone in destroying the teaching profession. Thanks for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 07:20 AM

Lets be honest - no party shows much respect for teachers.

Before the war they cut all teachers wages, some bloody pretence or another. Think of Shirley Williams saying that she didn't intend to listen union leaders opinions about salary structure, as their opinions were not worth paying attention to. Think of Keith Joseph telling blatant lies about how they had consulted with teachers for ten years before introducing the National Curriculum. The man was full of it.

This business of government finding ways to loot our pension funds should be stopped though - they simply have no right to this money. They get enough in tax, and they never explain properly how they are spending it.

Everyone pays tax. VAT on everything. Fuel tax. Unavoidable for most of us.

I don't think striking will do it. And no political party will forego getting their fingers in that honeypot.

Just for once wouldn't it be great if the unions got smart and took the bastards to court and challenged the legality of this embezzlement?

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: Edthefolkie
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 07:51 AM

I really do hope Bonzo is just winding people up as usual, because if he isn't I wonder what contact he has with reality.

The point that these "every man for himself" mouth foamers miss is that most people in the public SERVICE (my capitals) have worked for years for not enormous sums, knowing, or thinking, that they have a safe, but NOT gold plated, pension at the end of it. It's called a contract - isn't it?

A close relative of mine has given her career to the NHS since the age of 17, and is now nearly 60 and in a highly responsible position. A couple of years ago she had had her pension contributions increased and her retirement date put back - she reluctantly accepted this. Now, once more, she is faced with having to work longer for less pension, and pretty damn annoyed at being cheated by shysters like Cameron, Osborne and Maude. I note that THEY still have their gold plated final salary pension scheme and no doubt, nice big trust funds from Daddy. But of course, we're all in this together, aren't we George. George?

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 08:46 AM

Hey Bonzo, are you related the Jeremy Clarkson by any chance?

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 08:52 AM

Oh c'mon. Clarkson deserves punishment and ostracism - but not THAT!

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: autolycus
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 09:04 AM

"My father was a teacher and then headmaster for over 40 years, my mother worked as a school secretary for 25 years, my sister worked as a language teacher for over 30 years and my wife worked in adult education for 26 years. None of them would strike under any circumstances."

Firstly, very many of the P.S.workers who struck yesterday were doin it for the first time in their lives in some cases; for the first time in 25+ years. So until yesterday, they were in the same group.

In the second place, there are very large numbers of conservative/Conservative teachers who have learnt, and teach, obediance to authority. While other teachers teach critical judgment and an independant attitude.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 10:06 AM

poor sad bonzo..

he can be as obnoxiously provocative as he likes;

but who is he most likely going to need to cut his toe nails, give him baths and wipe his arse
10 years or more from now... ???

.. that is if there is any form of civilised 'Care worker' system left in existence after our nation
has been so ruthlessly asset stripped
by current government ????

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: autolycus
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 10:08 AM

He said that'd be done privately.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 10:18 AM

so let's all hope his trust and faith in private insurance plans and house market value
are well founded and to be properly honoured in his older age..

but who can predict the next few global Financial institution money crises...?????

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 02:01 PM

I know it's not a popular concept once one of these gets going, but how about you all get back to posting more about the issues, as some have done, rather than sniping? Regardless of a person's postings, en masse bullying isn't pretty from any sector.

Thanks,

kat - moderator

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 02:02 PM

"My father was a teacher and then headmaster for over 40 years, my mother worked as a school secretary for 25 years, my sister worked as a language teacher for over 30 years and my wife worked in adult education for 26 years. None of them would strike under any circumstances."

I rather suspect he might be misjudging them.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 02:07 PM

With all due respect, dear mod, Bozo has never honestly (well, hardly ever) debated an issue in the whole of his mudcat existence.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 02:40 PM

That's not the point, Richard, and has been discussed ad nauseum. The point is grouping up and sniping.

Let's get back to the discussion of issues and what folks have actually done about them.

kat - mod

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 03:17 PM

The present pension arrangements were negotiated and agreed and settled back in 2008.   So the people affected by them are now expected to accept that they should now be torn up and worse terms imposed in place of them.

It's a bit as if the people you bought your furniture from couple of years ago turned up on your doorstep demanding extra payment, or they'd come in and smash up your place.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 03:21 PM

"poor sad bonzo..

he can be as obnoxiously provocative as he likes;

but who is he most likely going to need to cut his toe nails, give him baths and wipe his arse
10 years or more from now... ???"

What a fucking joke!......have you ever been inside a "care" home lately...or read the newspapers?

They're more likely to rifle through his drawers than wipe his arse, feed him, or give him any form of stimulation.

We should be ashamed of how we treat our old people, as far as I can see they are looked upon as money on legs, foced to sell their homes an use all their saving to keep themselves alive.

I visit homes in our area, and all are poor....some are disgraceful.

I went to visit one of my old female teachers, who had just been served "dinner"
A brown rock hard 4" square surrounded by what had once been chips,
When I enquired what it was, the "care" worker replied without a blush....."La-san-ya!"

Money controls everything, to most folks, their space and consumerist lifestyle takes precedence over the welfare of their elderly parents......whats the point of an extended life expectancy when that life is empty and worthless?

I we are going to strike, why is it not about the REAL poor, those struggling on min wage...or part time work with no union to hype up a glorified holiday.....we dont need a strike, we need a fuckin' revolution....in the way we think.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: MikeL2
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 03:31 PM

hi

Thanks Kat.

One of the problems is that the use of statistics used "modified" to suit the situation.

For instance the present Government claim that all Public service workers get gold plated pensions is really not true.

The figur quoted below of £4000 per annum is very low by any standards. I have seen £5000 quoted but hell that is low too. Mt State pension is higher than that !!!

The gold-plated figur includes senior management and executive staff who will receive from £50000 per annum.

These are not the people who have been selected to have their pensions cut.

As usual in all the political issues we are never actually comparing apples with apples.

Cheers

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: paula t
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 04:31 PM

I was quite "amused" by Cameron talking about a teacher earning £37000 a year. I haven't got anywhere close yet....and I've been teaching since 1982!

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 04:39 PM

You should remember that Cameron would see someone earning £37,000 a year as just about scraping by... He wouldn't get out of bed for that kind of money.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 06:27 PM

hi akenaton ..

my mother is a retired care home assistant.
She was a worker at the lowest paid rung of the hierarchy
who spent most of her working life wiping arses and washing intimate body regions, day noon and night
[24 or more hour shifts sometimes].

She held that job for years never losing sight of her constant genuine respect and affection for the often cantankerous old folk
who'd been dumped by their reasonably well off families.

- and my mum was still grafting hard at work for very little financial reward well into her 60's..

..with no union to support and protect her...

I recall it may well have been a private 'residential care home',
scamming as much out of the public purse the owners could get away with,
until suddenly closing down overnight to reap the benefit of rising property values.

She was pensioned off about 15 years ago, replaced with cheap young 'trainees'.
Even then that was still some kind of elderly care system
to be relatively proud of.

We soon had hopes dashed a returning Labour Govt would be an improvement..

My mother's generation of underpaid skivvies has been seriously let down in retirement
by successive Govts as much as any financially much better off pensioners with a sense of self righteous grievance.

She's nearly 80 now, no savings, no ownership stake in our 'family home' of more than 40 years
- ie. the council house that the privatised housing agency is trying so hard to bully her into giving up..

Noone in our family has managed to earn enough significant savings or fund private investment plans,
[only a handfull of us left alive - with our own 'fair share' of health problems and disabilities..]
and I am just scared what will happen to my mother
and how we will cope in the next few years..

So yes, it is a very bleak future to look forward to getting older in post Cameron UK...

My wife has the only 'decent' salary in our immediate family.

She is a public sector education worker.
It's a real concern how much longer her health will survive the unremitting increasing workload and longer hours
and pressure being heaped upon her in the short while since the tories got back in.

It's no help that the school Head had a career in business
and only a few short years teaching experience
before promotion.
This Head is remorselessly unsympathetic or supportive,
and now seems to be hell bent under this new regime
on impressing LEA superiors with how tough she can be
sqeezing far more work out of long serving dedicated staff.

Cameron's tory Govt seriously believes it can get away with forcing ageing front line public sector workers to work more years until retirement,
while piling on the grinding stress that will cause so many high quality loyal public servants
to either drop dead prematurely at work,
or quit through ill health to take early retirement
at reduced pension rates !!!!???


and apologies to mudcat mods if it's not always so clear
where the 'discussion' dividing line lays between 'issues'
and personalised disagreements founded through bitter experience...

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 06:58 PM

.. and it's worth mentioning that in recent years,
more than a few dodgy Private sector elderly care nursing homes
in the South West coast region have been closed down.

To be reopened shortly afterwards as rehab clinics !!!
because creaming off these lucrative Public sector grants is far more profitable
than previous bread and butter age care grants...

So who knows what the welfare future holds for any of us now over 50...???

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 04:01 PM

Of course, the dire financial state of the UK is absolutely nothing to do with "the bankers" at all. You are aware of course that 20% of the treasury take on taxes comes from the City of London!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 04:42 PM

Since the whole of UK corporation tax plus business rates only comes to 12% of government revenue, (source: HM Treasury), I think this claim must be justified with publicly available figures.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 06:17 PM

Must????? Sorry I don't do justification!!

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 08:27 PM

PFR is right.

Bozo is probably guilty of terminological inexactitude - and certainly cowardice if he will not step up to the plate.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 08:44 PM

"don't do justification!!"

..neither do you do empathy, compassion, humility, remorse.....

in fact any of the usual personal attributes or values that positively distinguish a psychologically well functioning individual
from a completely maladaptive sociopath...


but never mind.. eh.. as long as your 3 legged mutt still loves you.. ???


and yet despite all your unpleasant ill spirited abuse of public sector workers..

when life gets seriously shit,
there will always be good kind charitable public spirited folk
in most communities,
genuinely concerned and willing and prepared step forward to offer unconditional succour and help
to even the meanest of people..

my old mum's a bit like that.. takes in stray abused dogs
and feeds and tries to heal them no matter much they resist, claw and bite..

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 Dec 11 - 06:55 AM

It appears that a good number of strikers went xmas shopping on the strike day - that's not striking, that is skiving and absolutely disgraceful.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: autolycus
Date: 03 Dec 11 - 07:22 AM

Francis Maude's publicly funded pension is £43,825 a year with a pot of £731,883
David Cameron's publicly funded pension is £32,978 a year with a pot of £550,725
George Osborne's publicly funded pension is £32,978 a year with a pot of £550,725
Nick Cleggs's publicly funded pension is £28,404 a year with a pot of £440,000
Eric Pickles' publicly funded pension is £43,825 a year with a pot of £731,883
Vince Cable's publicly funded pension is £39,551 a year with a pot of £660,507
Andrew Lansley's publicly funded pension is £39,551 a year with a pot of £660,507
Danny Alexander's publicly funded pension is £26,404 a year with pot of £440,942


Posted by a Facebook friend who is a journalist of long standing.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 03 Dec 11 - 07:34 AM

You've been caught with your pants down. You thought you could make up figures to discomfit opposition. You're not just stupid and spectacularly envious, you're a liar. You also live on public handouts while condemning others who do. You are therefore unprincipled.

If you put up proof of your statement I will withdraw and apologise.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 Dec 11 - 08:23 AM

Mr Burke seems to take life so seriously!!

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: autolycus
Date: 03 Dec 11 - 08:30 AM

Ah, the Clarkson Defence.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Dec 11 - 05:14 AM

A point. How does one nail the lie that teaching and local government pensions are "unaffordable"? Teachers pay in more than is paid out by the government each year, so do local government workers.
The proposed 3% extra contribution will all go to the treasury as a stealth tax, and the government refuses to release the figures.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Dec 11 - 02:30 PM

"Never apologise, never explain" - contemptible when John Wayne's character said it, and still contemptible in this thread...
.........................

As for going shopping on a strike, it's interesting to recall that the original term used when the idea of a General Strike was invented back in the 1830s was "the Grand National Holiday". High time the name and the notion was revived.

We work to live, we don't live to work. Unless we are either crazy, or quite unusually lucky in the kind of work we are able to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: Penny S.
Date: 05 Dec 11 - 02:46 PM

Hi Kevin, slight thread creep, good letter in the paper today.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: RichM
Date: 06 Dec 11 - 04:35 PM

What gets me, is how many of these people bitching about working class wages, never bitch about the top 1% who skim trillions (trillions!) of dollars or pounds or euros off the top, and get away with it.

That's who you should be chastising, Mister 3legs.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: Cats
Date: 06 Dec 11 - 07:00 PM

Thanks for the figures autolycus. Hope you don't mind them being copied

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: autolycus
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 05:30 AM

Cats

Pleasure. Help yourself. I 'borrowed' them.

It now turns out the strike was not useless. It's produced a changed government offer to prevent more strikes

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16081502

[I can't make blue clickies - I get a yellow star preventing me.]

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: Silas
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 05:36 AM

"It appears that a good number of strikers went xmas shopping on the strike day - that's not striking, that is skiving and absolutely disgraceful."


Rubbish. The strikers were not getting paid so they can do just what the hell they like in their own time - what do you expect them to do?

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 07:53 AM

Yes - skiving isn't it???

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: Silas
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 07:59 AM

Listen tripod, they are not getting paid - how can they be skiving?

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 08:01 AM

No. A strike is a unilateral withdrawal of labour to further a dispute with an employer (or n this case a controller of an employer) - exactly what happened whether the strikers went on otherwise to protest or not.

Maybe you should expend some of your vaunted wealth to buy a dictionary.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 08:06 AM

One definition of slavery is your own time is not your own. That's evidently how Bonzo sees people in employment.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: autolycus
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 09:00 AM

Glad everyone's picked up on the link.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 09:27 AM

At least the bankers don't strike - they work very long hours indeed. Highly paid - yes, but secure investment into the UK. Do they pay tax? - well yes, an example from a client's tax calculation - income £850k.............tax payable £450k!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 10:26 AM

The bankers.. poor beggars.. working such very long hours indeed to only take home a pitiful £400k after tax...

and my mrs only works the approx regular equivalent of 12 hours a day
including all the ever increasing admin work she has to bring home to do on her laptop..

.. and she doesn't pay anywhere near a fair fraction of all that tax payable £450k amount
out of her capped and decreasing in real value lower ranking public servant's salary..????

lazy selfish cow..
she should jolly well be more sympathetic to the plight of overworked bankers..!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: Paul Burke
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 03:40 PM

Why do you respond to bozo the unprincipled liar?

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 10:41 AM

What a nice friendly egg you are burke, thankyou so much for your kind words.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: Paul Burke
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 05:58 PM

I've told you how you can demonstrate that I'm wrong. You could alternatively apologise for lying, and refrain from doing so in future.

As for unprincipled, that you will live as you preach others should is too much to hope for. You will, I expect, continue to claim your State handouts and keep complaining that others do likewise. Note that my accusation does not relate to accepting benefits.

As for not being friendly, I have many good, generous, honest, principled, interesting and talented friends.

Subject: RE: BS: Public Sector skivers (UK)
From: Paul Burke
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 05:59 PM

100 before Leadwhatsits sees it.