BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!

Subject: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 05:54 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bvnOgxd6wo

A Scottish youth had no ticket on a train, the ticket collector ordered him off the train, the youth refused, a passenger did the honours and forcibly ejected the youth from the train - job very well done!

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 06:11 AM

Isn't it illegal to manhandle someone like that?

It really is a shame it couldn't have been handled in a more sensitive way especially when children were there witnessing it all, the swearing and the violence.

Not the sort of video I would be proud to upload to my YouTube channel.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: melodeonboy
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 06:33 AM

"Isn't it illegal to manhandle someone like that?"

Isn't it illegal to travel on public tansport and refuse to pay? Isn't it illegal to stay on a train after an official of the railway company has told you to get off?

I think justice (albeit rough) was done! I don't have much sympathy for young oiks who take the piss just 'cos they think they can get away with it. Full marks to the public spirited bloke who chucked the little sod off.   

I was chucked off trains a few times when I was young and penniless. The difference is that I knew I was in the wrong and got off the train when I was told to rather than arguing about my "rights"!

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 06:42 AM

In the UK we are not allowed to take the law into our own hands ....... two wrongs do not make a right.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 06:49 AM

I didn't get chucked off but had the police waiting for me when I got off the train.

I had bought a return ticket but I think I must have dropped it Bangor where I had a drink while waiting for a train and picked up another one as when I showed it to the conductor, it certainly wasn't the right ticket.

Anyway, I'd no means of proving my (admittedly unlikely) story and the conductor was the type who would not even attempt listen.

I paid up and that was the end of the matter.

Except I was fuming. My return journey had been from Llandudno to Rhyl where I had been on a course (and had the papers with me). The only reason I wound up in Bangor was that there was an error on the British Rail timetable. The train I was on did not stop at Llandudno Junction as stated but went straight through to Bangor (and I was not the only one who was caught out by this).

I was late, I'd been forced on a detour I didn't want to make and been forced to pay for the privilege.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 06:54 AM

(it certainly wasn't the right ticket.)

Although mine wouldn't have been right for Bangor either. It just might have helped my story.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 06:56 AM

I don't see how it could have been handled much more sensitively other than just giving in and letting the guy travel free. It seems to me that he wasn't going to leave the train of his own free will and by his own volition - and as far as the language goes he was already swearing and as far as I can make out was the only one who was swearing during the episode. He was taking advantage of the fact that the guard was elderly. If you misbehave in a pub or club you get ejected so why should public transport be any different. True enough it's not nice for kids to see but in the long run if more folk were like the big man then maybe people in general would be more free of loutish behaviour.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 06:58 AM

I don't see how it could have been handled much more sensitively other than just giving in and letting the guy travel free.

That's easy. All that's needed (as I found out) is to arrange for the police to be waiting at his destination.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 07:18 AM

You'd then need to know his destination.

Better to have the British Rail police waiting to board the train at the next station - yes I have seen that done.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 07:21 AM

Yep, that makes sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 07:40 AM

I have recently had to make a train journey to Bristol to help a sick and elderly friend. Even with my Railcard, it cost quite a bit. I don't see why anyone withour a ticket should get away with it. But normally in these situations, as stated above, the Transport Police are alerted and the miscreant is led off, without any fracas on the train. (I too have seen this done twice)

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 08:09 AM

In the UK we are not allowed to take the law into our own hands ....... two wrongs do not make a right.

Yes, and an enquiry should be set up to find out if the youth has been "abused" as a child, and safeguard his "human rights"......and other nonsense!!!!!!!

Well done the "big guy"!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 08:18 AM

I don't see how that can happen, at Temple Meads you have to buy a ticket first to be able to swipe through the barrier gate to get on to the platform. There was a time when you could get on a train and pay if it was a short journey say to Weston-Super-Mare but I don't think you can now so I think the problem probably lies with the station where he boarded the train in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: theleveller
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 08:22 AM

Of course no-one should be allowed to get away with travelling without a ticket. In situations like this, though, it's best left to the proper authorities to deal with. Vigilantes are quite often just pure bullies and the situation could easily have escalated into a fight that might have injured innocent passengers. If someone grabbed me, for whatever reason, I'd assume I was being assaulted and deck them without a second thought - and I would be in the right to do so. If, however, a member of train staff was being assualted, I'd always help them.

As a regular commuter I'm often irritated by the number of 'Revenue Protection' people there are - sometimes meaning I have to show my ticket 3 times in the course of a journey. This is especially irksome when trains are cancelled because there is no driver or guard available. It shows the lack of respect many train companies have for their passengers.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 08:23 AM

Yes, and an enquiry should be set up to find out if the youth has been "abused" as a child, and safeguard his "human rights"......and other nonsense!!!!!!!

Rather extreme measures for not having a train ticket .... lol.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: theleveller
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 08:33 AM

I actually had the opposite situation the other day. When travelling from my local (unmanned) station to the next town where my season ticket was valid from, I tried to buy a ticket from the conductor but because he couldn't get his machine to work he told me to "forget it". Maybe I sould have thrown him off the train.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 08:39 AM

They should have threw the guy who filmed it off with him. In cases like this, you take them somewhere quiet and bump into his kidneys, leave him pissing blood for two weeks.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 08:42 AM

Ah, the Nazi - or is it IRA - approach to social cohesion again.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 08:46 AM

"As a regular commuter I'm often irritated by the number of 'Revenue Protection' people there are - sometimes meaning I have to show my ticket 3 times in the course of a journey."

I get pissed off when no-one comes along to check my ticket, because that means that some tight-arsed scrote(s) might get away with travelling for bugger-all when I've paid for the pleasure.

Travelling without a ticket is THEFT. Would you people be so reasonable and understanding, so concerned about the offender's rights, if you caught someone picking your pocket or twocking your car? No you bloody wouldn't, so why waste sympathy on someone stealing from the railway operator?

Words like 'double' and 'standards' spring instantly to mind. The bastard got what he deserved.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 08:54 AM

But Backwoodsman. No one has suggested he should not have to pay for his journey

One of the things that has been question though is mentality of those who appear to prefer thuggery to allowing the proper authorities handle these matters...

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 08:57 AM

Nobody has said that he should travel free, it just needs to be dealt with properly.

If I had been in that train carriage with children I would not have been happy with all of that going on around me. Also, it is the kind of thing that distresses some people and when they have paid to travel they are entitled to do so in peace.

It could all have been handled in a much better and more appropriate way.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 08:59 AM

Well, at least in Scotland they were kind enough to stop the train before ejecting the miscreant. That kid's caregivers should have taught him some manners.

As for the following, "Yes, and an enquiry should be set up to find out if the youth has been "abused" as a child, and safeguard his "human rights"......and other nonsense!!!!!!!"

Ya know, I don't know why that remark reminds me of Ronald Reagan in his latter years.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 09:03 AM

Well, at least in Scotland they were kind enough to stop the train before ejecting the miscreant.

I doubt that the safety systems on the train would have allowed otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: theleveller
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 09:13 AM

Backwoodsman - you missed off the next part of my para, thereby altering the point I was making. Personally, I would prefer it if, instead of employing so many "Revenue Protection" people (in addition to the usual conductor)on a service where 90% of passengers are regular commuters with season tickets, they spent the money employing more drivers and guards so that I get the kind of service that I pay for with my £1300 a year season ticket, instead of being left stranded and having to wait an hour for the next train on far too many occasions.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 09:13 AM

"Would you people be so reasonable and understanding, so concerned about the offender's rights, if you caught someone picking your pocket or twocking your car?"

That depends. What does 'twocking' mean?

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Bruce Baillie
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 09:15 AM

While I agree that people shouldn't get away with not paying for their fare it does make me wonder if the chap who threw him off the train would have been quite so eager to get involved if it had been someone as big (or bigger) than himself rather than a weedy student type who was easy meat for him to show off against? As someone else on this thread said 'vigilantes are often just pure bullies', he came across like that to me when I saw it on TV.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 09:15 AM

Car theft. Taking Without Owners Consent (-king).

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 09:15 AM

Twoc[k] = Take without owner's consent ~~ the legal formula used in a charge of car-stealing, I believe.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 09:21 AM

"Nobody has said that he should travel free, it just needs to be dealt with properly.

If I had been in that train carriage with children I would not have been happy with all of that going on around me. Also, it is the kind of thing that distresses some people and when they have paid to travel they are entitled to do so in peace."

I can understand that, Eanjay. But I also understand that there are times when a clear message has to be given. What message would those easily-distressed people and children have been given if he had been allowed to continue his journey - that stealing from the rail operators is acceptable?

Sometimes it's necessary and appropriate to make a stand and give a clear message. The distressed and the children would soon get over it. In fact, far from being distressed, most kids would find the spectacle of the criminal's ejection extremely entertaining, in my experience!

Kids aren't anything like as fragile as some might like to suggest, and anyone who believes that their kids are living in an expletive-free world are just deluding themselves - stand outside any school at leaving time and listen to them!

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 09:30 AM

What message would those easily-distressed people and children have been given if he had been allowed to continue his journey - that stealing from the rail operators is acceptable?

Assuming that they were following the "no fuss" version. That the police come along and deal with people who don't pay.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 09:32 AM

"Backwoodsman - you missed off the next part of my para, thereby altering the point I was making."

That wasn't my intention, Leveller, apologies if I did that.

I was simply trying to make the point that ticket inspection is, IMHO, a very important part of rail-operations and that, far from being an imposition on honest passengers, it is a service that fare-payers deserve, and should insist upon, in order to prevent thieves causing fares to increase at an even greater rate than they already do.

Don't forget, someone travelling without a ticket isn't travelling free - their fare is picked up by the decent, fare-paying traveller in the form of increased fares.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 09:37 AM

Thank you, gentlemen, for the info on twocking. Never encountered the term before.

In that case, I would likely thank the person for picking my pocket because the haul would be $.37, one pink Bic lighter (don't ask), a used Kleenex with dried snot in it and a flat pick. My other pocket has a hole in it, so I hope he has warm hands.

As for twocking my car: that reminded me of the older fellow who was in the parking lot at the local supermarket. A police officer was writing out a ticket for a parking violation. The old fellow said, "Don't you have anything better to do than harass a guy about his parking?" The officer politely asked the guy to be about his business. The old boy tore the ticket up and dropped a shower of confetti to the ground. The officer wrote another ticket for littering. A brief exchange occurred and it resulted in two more tickets.

I asked the man what the hell he was doing, stacking up tickets against his car like that. He told me he had no car, but since his retirement he'd had to find ways to amuse himself, and his weekly trip to the supermarket facilitated just that end.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 09:40 AM

"Taking without the owners consent" is a legal method of prosecuting 'joyriders'. These people 'steal'(in most peoples view) cars, drive them around, and then dump them. (and possibly set fore to them to destroy evidence)
As, in the UK, Theft is defined as 'taking the property of another with the intent to permanently deprive the owner' then, if the intention is to dump a car after using it for a while, a charge of 'theft' wouldn't stand up. Hence the legislation on 'twocking'

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 09:52 AM

A train system that operates out of Montreal with service going to seven or eight areas around the city relies on an honour system. Machines dispense tickets but no one checks them anywhere along the line, no kidding. Instead there are signs that read to the effect that should you be caught without a ticket you will be hauled before a judge and made to cough up $500 (and I don't recall if there is alternate jail time in the event you don't have $500 to cough up). I don't know whether the system works or not, but knowing big cities, I expect there are more than a few people having their rides paid for by the general public.

IMO, this thread has made two points:

1) Prevent the problem by checking passes or tickets before people get on the train. Do that and there is no need for a second provision.

2) Since there are security personnel whose job it is to take care of situations such as the one given in the opening post, let them do their job.

I agree with both.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: theleveller
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 09:52 AM

Can I just set out what the proper procedure for dealing with fare dodgers is (and one which, I assume, meets with approval of the train comapnies): conductor approaches fare dodger and asks him/her to pay; if dodger refuses he/she is asked to get off at the next station; if fare dodger refuses (or if it's a long-distance train)conductor phones ahead and Transport Police are waiting; dodger is arrested/made to pay/prosecuted; no-one gets hurt and train company recovers fare. Perfectly adequate and sensible system until someone inteferes and decides to take the law into their own hands.

So, the double standards apply to those who claim to be law-abiding citizens but rush to support an illegal, stupid and counter-productive action which achieves nothing apart from boosting the ego of some bully-boy.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 09:57 AM

Backwoodsman, I think that the police at the next station leading someone off a train gives a clear enough message and is the right thing to do.

The trouble with all this business of people taking the law into their own hands is that it can backfire and innocent 'bystanders' can be hurt. Where do you draw the line with these things?

I would be really cross and fed up if someone stole my car but the number of people who have been injured or killed trying to protect their car gives me a clear message that it is better to let the police deal with these things.

The lad without the ticket was harmless enough but he could easily have had a knife and then what would have happened if things had escalated?

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 10:03 AM

I went looking for a song close to being about this situation and got snagged by this article.

Anyway, the following piece of the song tells ya all ya gotta know about train travel.

Oh well, the Rock Island line
She's a mighty good road
Rock Island line is the road to ride
Ya, the Rock Island line
Is a mighty good road
And if you want to ride
You gotta ride it
Like you find it
Get your ticket at the station
On the Rock Island line

That youth who was so rude to the older conductor should have listened to that song!

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 10:06 AM

1) Prevent the problem by checking passes or tickets before people get on the train.

I don't think that's practical. There are a lot of unmanned and part time manned stations and I'm pretty sure the cost of manning them or equipping them with ticket machines and barriers would far outweigh the cost of any possible loss through fraud.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 10:11 AM

I give in.

The evildoers have won.

I don't know where you people all live, but where I live there are no police worth talking about, emergency calls take a long time to be dealt with, if at all.

A few years ago, I caught two traveller-types in the act of stealing a satellite dish from a centre I worked in (back when a satellite dish was rare and worth something). They didn't see me, so I quietly went back inside, rang the police and told them that a theft was being committed as we spoke, and that if they got a car there right away, they would catch the offenders in the act. The car arrived...............three days later.

Forgive me if I don't share you lot's enthusiasm for leaving everything in the hands of the Boys In Blue - if my experience was anything to go by, the bugger on the train would be long gone when they arrived.

That's my lot.

Out.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 10:19 AM

Ya know, I don't know why that remark reminds me of Ronald Reagan in his latter years.

Or Ashcroft, Cheney or Baby Bush in more recent times, Bruce.

And they didn't have advanced senility as an excuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: theleveller
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 10:55 AM

A far bigger problem than fare-dodging is cable theft. It happens at least twice a month on the route I take - meaning that trains are cancelled or delayed and NationalRail (i.e. the taxpayer) are losing a fortune.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 11:02 AM

It seems to me that in cases like this, and like the summer riots, the authorities want Joe Public to stand up to wrongdoers, then if they do they are charged with taking the law into their own hands, then the authorities complain people are passing by and not getting involved. You can't win. "Have a go heroes" are praised, but police say, "don't get involved, you may get stabbed or shot"!

RtS

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: bubblyrat
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 11:09 AM

So what word does one use to describe the action of Fornicating Under Consent , then ??

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 11:32 AM

It isn't the normal boys in blue who are called to trains. It's the Trasnport police - part of the rail system - http://www.btp.police.uk/ - so comments about squad car 3 days later are ignorant and irrelevant.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 11:43 AM

Thanks for pointing out what we all already know, Mr. Head.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 12:02 PM

Sadly we live in the age of the mobile phone camera and CCTV, otherwise this would never had made the news. Dick, when I served in Ulster, there was no anti social crime, you are correct for once.

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: gnu
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 01:33 PM

Hmmm... I understood, in this case, the checking of tickets prior to embarking would not have helped as the lad did have a ticket but did not get off at the station he should have and therefore had not paid for the next stage of his journey... no?

Certainly, he should have met at the next stop and and taken in AND that should have been an option given to him. Unfortunately we don't have all the info from a brief video clip. There are a number of scenarios as to why this situation unfolded the way it did. Repeat offender? A setup for a lawsuit? The youth is mentally impaired (which would raise more questions)? Lots of them.

As for manhandling, if the youth had capitulated he would not have been roughed up... especially when he tried to get back on after ejection. Again, I believe it should have been handled as I stated above. Education of the public in regard of the policies and procedures could prevent possible harm to such as the lad, the ejector and bystanders... bysitters?

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: MikeL2
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 02:44 PM

Hi

I can't help but think about how things have changed over the past 50 or so years !!

When I was in the RAF I was stationed for a while at Inverness. Coming from Manchester it was a long way and a lot of money to have to pay to get home. So I used to "cheat" by buying a platform ticket at each end to get me off the station. In those days it was unusual to have your ticket checked. This usually worked.

On occasions it did happen and paying the fare settled the issue amicably.

Sometimes as I was traveling in uniform the ticket collector would just say " OK" and not charge me.

On one memorable occasion I had a third class travel warrant but the train was full so I went in the First Class compartment and shared with two Scottish business men. A ticket collector came along and ordered me to move into the Third Class part of the train.

The two men said " No way" and one of them offered to pay the difference for me to stay. Not only that but they then invited me to join them in the Restaurant Car and paid for my meal.

They worked for D C Thomson in Dundee who printed several comics including The Dandy and The Beano.

Yes things have changed !!! Not for the better. !!

Cheers

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 03:29 PM

That sounds like a lovely time, Mike!

I agree with theleveller. He should have been met at the next station, etc. No one was being physical until the bully stepped in. Anything could have happened at that point, then the liability on the part of the Train Company could have skyrocketed unless, of course, it says on your ticket, etc., that you ride at your own risk, etc..

Anyway, this is one of those things which is being studied and found so interesting by researchers of social media. What responsibility does the "videographer" take on by posting their view of what happened? Or, not? This kind of instant access to the minutiae of daily life on the planet certainly seems to be changing our attitudes and responses, as well as actions.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Youth expelled from train-no ticket!
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Dec 11 - 04:41 PM

Here we see a ticket inspector handling it incorrectly, and a thug showing off.
he could have been met by transport police at the next station, and as a final resort taken to court.