Why Dec 25?

Subject: Why Dec 25?
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 25 Dec 11 - 12:34 PM

On the winter solstice--the shortest day of the year--the sun stops rising and setting further and further south and, for three days, stays in the same spot (solstice means "sun stand still"). Then it starts rising progressively northward. So, Dec 25 represents the "birth" of the sun and is imaged as a haloed infant lying in a grotto or cave in the earth. The story of the stable represents the zodiac or "circle of animals" where the infants lies in a manger amidst the goats (Capricorn or winter and Aries or spring) and cows (Taurus the old spring sign). The appearance of the infant sun means the earth has been saved from the cold and dark so he is the savior or Jesus. Orion the resurrected hero rises on the eastern horizon and appears to be chasing away Scorpio his executioner and the Southern Cross the object of his execution which are sinking on the western horizon fulfilling the role of heavenly avenger, the messiah, the Christ.

Subject: RE: Why Dec 25?
From: SINSULL
Date: 25 Dec 11 - 12:39 PM

Merry Christmas, Josepp, in keeping with the situation.

Subject: RE: Why Dec 25?
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Dec 11 - 01:17 PM

Merry Christmas, too, but I'm not at all certain that fits with the changes to the calendar over the centuries. Maybe you could get away with sometime within a few weeks of the 25th, but nothing so precise.

For some history try this page, and for the choice of date, start around half way down.

Subject: RE: Why Dec 25?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 25 Dec 11 - 02:11 PM

Southern Cross? oy vey.

It's the season of good something, so I'll try to trfrain from saying that the op is a total...


just managed it.

Subject: RE: Why Dec 25?
From: Greg B
Date: 25 Dec 11 - 03:22 PM

Almost every culture has a "light overcoming the darkness" festival of one sort or another this time of year. In particular, early Christianity, particularly after Constantine, endeavored to "over-write" the various Pagan and (to a lesser extent) Jewish festivals with something that "felt" similar. Of course, if you believe in the Divine, then you'll say that such historical events occurred in harmony with Nature by "intelligent design" i.e., that there are not really any coincidences.

Subject: RE: Why Dec 25?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Dec 11 - 04:54 PM

Why December 25th - well its Christmas. Time to watch old movies on the telly again, and eat too much.

Subject: RE: Why Dec 25?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 25 Dec 11 - 04:56 PM

Almost every culture has a "light overcoming the darkness" festival of one sort or another this time of year. ........... ...............................................................................................................................
Of course, if you believe in the Divine, then you'll say that such historical events occurred in harmony with Nature by "intelligent design" i.e., that there are not really any coincidences.


Even with Bethlehem's Mediterranean climate, nights can be pretty cold in winter out in the open. If the story is to be believed, then "shepherds watching their flocks at night" suggests that it didn't happen at this time of year.



DC

Subject: RE: Why Dec 25?
From: greg stephens
Date: 25 Dec 11 - 06:38 PM

I'm with Al Whittle. It would be bloody silly not to celebrate on Christmas Day, given that everyone else is.

Subject: RE: Why Dec 25?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Dec 11 - 08:14 PM

"RE: Why Dec 25?"

Because the Sunday following the paschal full moon was taken?

Subject: RE: Why Dec 25?
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Dec 11 - 08:59 PM

something was needed to fill the gap from dec. 24 and dec. 26.

[scriptural theologians believe the date of the birth as probably sometime in spring. dec. 25 was chosen by the christians around 330 ce to compete with the other holidays held around that day.]

Subject: RE: Why Dec 25?
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 25 Dec 11 - 10:50 PM

////For some history try this page, and for the choice of date, start around half way down.////

For some history I should try the Catholic Encyclopedia? Excuse me, but doesn't the Catholic Church have the audacity to put forth to intelligent people that this story and the personage that is its subject are historically real and verifiable? To cut to the quick, sir, they aren't. And that's all the use I have for the Catholic Encyclopedia or anything connected to Catholicism for that matter.

Now merry Christmas to all and to all a good night.

Subject: RE: Why Dec 25?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Dec 11 - 10:53 PM

It's something in the water, right?

Subject: RE: Why Dec 25?
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 26 Dec 11 - 05:21 AM

Yes 25th, what a ridiculous day to choose, what with everywhere being full, pubs crowded and public transport virtually non existant

Subject: RE: Why Dec 25?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Dec 11 - 05:41 AM

For some history I should try the Catholic Encyclopedia? Excuse me, but doesn't the Catholic Church have the audacity to put forth to intelligent people that...,/i.

For any sort of historical research, it is a matter of reading several sources and weighing them up one against another. In this case, we are discussing when and why a particular date was chosen for Christmas and whatever you may think of their beliefs and attitudes, the Catholic Church was certainly a major player in chosing that date. For example, they are probably believable when researching the question of whether Christmas was celebrated on the 25th December pre the Gregorian adjustments to the calendar when it would align relatively badly with the solstice, unlike celebrating in the 25th December after the reorganisation when it aligns moderately well (forget the 'standing still' stuff - it doesn't if you measure accurately enough.)

Subject: RE: Why Dec 25?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Dec 11 - 05:41 AM

Sorry about the italics ;(

Subject: RE: Why Dec 25?
From: Fidjit
Date: 26 Dec 11 - 05:44 AM

my contribution

to the proceding.

Chas

Subject: RE: Why Dec 25?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Dec 11 - 05:51 AM

Well done, fidget. An event well worth commemorating.

I am always mildly amused when I remember that the concertina, as played by Kimber, was an invented instrument of roughly the same age as the electric guitar now.

Subject: RE: Why Dec 25?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 26 Dec 11 - 06:25 AM

End December and Early January are pretty inconvenient times to Christmas and New Year as this creates a lot of pressure on people who work in voluntary organisations funded by local authortities to provide monitoring information by the end of the first week after the quarter.

It would make more sense to have Christmas on 21st January and start the New Year on 1st February

Subject: RE: Why Dec 25?
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 26 Dec 11 - 03:06 PM

The New Year at one time started in March until the Romans moved it to January. So many of these old legends get jumbled around in the process. However, the winter solstice takes place at only one time during the year and all the calendar jumbling can't change it.

If the winter solstice happened on October 3rd because a new calender was instituted and Christmas then fell on October 6, my post would be titled "Why October 6?" I'm talking about the celestial events that occur at that time of the year for which no amount of calendar jumbling can change. I care not a wit for what the Catholic Church has to say about anything. They are not authority on anything but things that pertain to Catholicism--which don't interest me.

Subject: RE: Why Dec 25?
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 26 Dec 11 - 03:24 PM

////Almost every culture has a "light overcoming the darkness" festival of one sort or another this time of year.////

Sure. Look at all the pre-Christian saviors that were born on December 25. All of them represent the sun beginning its northward trek causing the days to get longer--in the northern hemisphere, that is. None of these cultures even knew what was below the equator.

////In particular, early Christianity, particularly after Constantine, endeavored to "over-write" the various Pagan and (to a lesser extent) Jewish festivals with something that "felt" similar.////

It was balancing act. He did move the Christian sabbath to Sunday rather than making the Sol Invictus worshipers change their holy day to Saturday.

////Of course, if you believe in the Divine, then you'll say that such historical events occurred in harmony with Nature by "intelligent design" i.e., that there are not really any coincidences.////

The problem with that is that it really eliminates the need to believe in the historical aspect. Easter, for example, shifts around all over the place because it is determined by the Sunday after the first full moon that occurs after the passing of the vernal equinox. Jesus couldn't have been crucified on every Friday during that period.

Subject: RE: Why Dec 25?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Dec 11 - 04:53 PM

Why not?

There's nothing special about any dates as such, it's just a matter of agreeing on a date to celebrate something.

Subject: RE: Why Dec 25?
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Dec 11 - 10:53 AM

The solstice is the 22nd of December, not the 25th. It does vary a bit, but can be earlier as well as later. You can only make a different 'turning point' on the 25th by failing to measure accurately by exactly the right amout. Be a bit too accurate, and you hit the 24th. A bit too inaccurate and you end up on the 26th. As to whether someone acknowledges the authority of the Catholic Church over them - totally irrelevant. The fact that the Catholic Church was a potent force for at least 1000 years and promoted the 25th as the day of "Christ's Mass" is not something that depends on your or my acknowledgement of authority.

WHY they chose the 25th, though, IS more interesting,and there ARE links with the solstice, and with calendars, and with non-Abrahamic religions, (including the Romans who did identify the solstice with the 25th), but these links are far more subtle than suggested in the OP. There are some excellent books on the development of calendars over the millenia in various cultures, and I suggest those interested find something from a reliable academic source to explore this topic futher.

Subject: RE: Why Dec 25?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 27 Dec 11 - 11:02 AM

josepp, Merry Christmas, btw.

Subject: RE: Why Dec 25?
From: Amos
Date: 27 Dec 11 - 11:51 AM

The date was also used by one of Christianity's chief competitors in the first three or four centuries AD, Mithraism. Their god was born of a virgin on 12-25, and had 12 disciples who called him the Son of God, several hundred years before Christ was a start-up.

Or so it has been said...



A

Subject: RE: Why Dec 25?
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 27 Dec 11 - 02:52 PM

////The solstice is the 22nd of December, not the 25th.////

Do not pass go, do not collect $200. That's your penalty for not reading opening post carefully enough.

Subject: RE: Why Dec 25?
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 27 Dec 11 - 03:11 PM

And merry Christmas to you, 999 and Sinsull (sorry, didn't see you back there--stand on your tippy-toes next time).

Yes, there's a number of pre-Christian saviors born on the 25th of December. Besides Mithra there was Helios, Osiris, Dionysus, Attis. I also believe Adonis, Tammuz, Dimuzi, Krishna (Wittoba) and Zoroaster were all 25ers as well.

////There's nothing special about any dates as such, it's just a matter of agreeing on a date to celebrate something.////

Especially since the gospels never said Jesus was born on Dec 25th.

Subject: RE: Why Dec 25?
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Dec 11 - 03:43 PM

/// do not pass go ... That's you penalty for not reading opening post more carefully

Not at all - perhaps you need to read my response more carefully!

Anyway, I've said all I need to, so I am happy to let third parties decide who said what. Enjoy the season, j, whatever you choose to call it

Subject: RE: Why Dec 25?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Dec 11 - 03:43 PM

I suppose Christmas is really tough on literalists, both on those who believe and on those who don't believe - those who are obsessed with being right.

Christmas is about the story, with all its richness and all its variations and all its inaccuracies. It's about legend and music and color and warmth and tradition. It's about love and peace and family and community and generosity and tolerance.

It's not about possessing the truth, about being right and somebody else being wrong.

It's about forgetting our differences and celebrating our enjoyment of each other.

Merry Christmas! Peace on earth, and good will to all!

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Why Dec 25?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 27 Dec 11 - 06:01 PM

It's to give the Morris sides all over Britain a chance to rest a bit before dancing so joyously on Boxing Day (which I really love to watch, well wrapped-up in my new scarf, gloves and woolly hat!)

Subject: RE: Why Dec 25?
From: Musket
Date: 28 Dec 11 - 06:13 AM

Hey Joe, good post.

I am in agreement with most of the posters here in that 25th is a good day to have off, what with James Bond and Morcambe and Wise on the telly, most people who work having the day off anyway, and as the shops are shut, a good time to get together with your nearest and dearest instead of worshipping at the altar of Mammon. (Save that for boxing day...)

Better still the Christians all bugger off from the pub at 11.30 to get to their service, leaving the bar less crowded for the rest of us.

Mind you, got some literalists coming to stay for a couple of days tomorrow, (her side..) so got my ear plugs to the ready and the nice new Xmas pressie copy of Hitchens' God is Not Great, just to leave lying around because now I think about it, I can be as petty and small minded as they can.

Wonder if I am as sanctimonious as they are though? (If you must answer that, ensure you don't live in Kent and have a beard.)