BS: Groan...another US Presidential election

Subject: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 07:14 AM

Here in the UK the news coverage has already begun. Only another 11 months to endure...

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: number 6
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 07:40 AM

I agree ..... it's about as boring, stupid, and honest as a season of American Idol and it has the same hyped up, over produced drama.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: catspaw49
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 08:55 AM

Y'all have already missed the Iowa Caucus where we were treated to the great Circus Debates. The Klown Kar would pull up and this shitload of clowns would emerge and say some really funny stuff. Really!


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 08:58 AM

Grrrr-r-r-r-o-o-o-o-o-a-a-a-a-n-n-n-n-nnnnnn!

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 09:11 AM

"If we would learn what the human race really is at bottom, we need only observe it in election times."

Mark Twain


"ELECTOR, n. One who enjoys the sacred privilege of voting for the man of another man's choice."

Ambrose Bierce

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 09:18 AM

I'm luckier than most folks. My TV has an off switch and when the election news gets to be too much for me I use it. Sometimes I even change the channel.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Musket
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 09:22 AM

Look on the bright side. Here in The UK, it used to be important to see who had most world influence, (traditionally, the tenant of The White House) so we took a passing interest.

In terms of world super powers and influence, I suppose we should at least get to know the name of China's President, even if we 1) have contempt for his regime and b) have even more contempt for those who court his money, hence giving respectability to their experiment with state capitalism.

There, that's my "some of my best friends are socialists" rant of the day done. Now back to feeding mammon.

(Out of interest, will he have a clear victory or has The Republican Party found someone yet who doesn't go to tea parties and might just be electable?)

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 10:30 AM

If you think it's bad in the UK, you oughta live in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 10:33 AM

You can now be arrested for saying that, Rap.

Omerta, capiche?

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 12:41 PM

Horrifying, isn't it? Well, try to look on the humorous side of it, I guess. I thank God I am not obliged to choose between the Democrats and the Republicans at election time!

This time, strike a blow for freedom! Vote for Chongo and the APP. Put a REAL chimp in the White House.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 12:54 PM

Unfortunately I'm not allowed to vote!

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: gnu
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 02:34 PM

As said on previous threads... there oughta be a law! In Canuckville, it's 6 weeks (although that has lately been subverted by negative ads in advance of an election call). Of course, in the US it would have to be longer but it's ridiculous in it's length and moreso in the way it's done. Then again, the US can't even convert to the System International for weights and measures so I suppose changing the electoral systems rules ain't gonna happen any time soon.

Sorry if that pisses anyone off. Just the way I see it.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 03:53 PM

I actually enjoy the process; well, I can't really say 'enjoy', but I do find it interesting, if only for the flabbergasting aspects.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 04:14 PM

I watched the Iowa caucus extensive reporting by Kattie Kay on the BBC. She was all excited about that non-event; but she didn't know the difference between a caucus and a primary, and seemed to imply that the result here was all that was needed to give Romney the nomination at the Convention. Amusing!

As I noted elsewhere, some 100,000 balloted, but in an election, Iowans cast some 1.5 million votes. The Ambrose Bierce definition of an Elector (voter) as given above by 999 is apt. Those few caucusnuts determine Iowans vote in the Republican Convention.

Agree with catspaw, but the KlownKar really was loaded with Asylum escapees.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 04:50 PM

Yup the suffering starts in this country also ... Hopefully one of them does something to make us laugh as Spaw says , otherwise it will be a long haul to endure

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 05:03 PM

The least funny one is Romney and he chases issues around like a kitten chasing a string.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 05:16 PM

Aren't you the least bit curious to find out what 40 billion dollars (of which only 10% is traceable) will buy this election cycle?

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 06:19 PM

I think it'll buy more of the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Janie
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 08:36 PM

As I listen to the sound bites and spin, I often ask myself - how mindless do they think we are? Then, as I listen to the polling numbers in reaction and the interviews with "the person on the street" I realize how lazy and thoughtless and easily manipulated John and Jane Q. Public really are. (regardless of their main political paradigm.)

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 08:40 PM

$40 billion is only about $300 per vote. Greases the economy a little bit. So what?

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 08:49 PM

This is rich...

The Republican party in Virginia has created a rule that requires people who vote in the primary to take and sign an OATH that they must vote for the final chosen candidate of the Republican party in November 2012.

The only thing different than a similar rule in 1933 Germany is if they check up on people to be certain they kept their oath.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 08:53 PM

I wonder if the VA Republicans have heard of the Constitution?

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Janie
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 09:01 PM

Can you provide a link for that, Donuel?

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 09:11 PM

Virginia Lawmaker Criticizes GOP for Requiring Primary Loyalty Oath

Published January 01, 2012 | FoxNews.com

A Virginia Republican lawmaker is criticizing his state party for requiring primary voters to sign a so-called loyalty oath in order to vote in the March 6 presidential primary.

The state's Board of Elections approved the proposal earlier in the week. Going forward, voters who arrive at polling sites in March will be required to sign the following statement:

"I, the undersigned, pledge that I intend to support the nominee of the Republican Party for president."

The idea is to keep out impostor Republicans, given that Virginia has an open primary, meaning voters of all political stripes, not just Republicans, can participate in the party's presidential primary.

But Robert Marshall, a state delegate, told Fox News the plan effectively would require residents in some cases to commit to a candidate they're not yet familiar with.

"For the Republican Party to depart so far from what the founders wanted, I think, is a mistake," he said.

It's not the first time the state GOP has made voters pledge their allegiance. Back in 2000, they had voters sign a pledge saying they wouldn't participate in the nominating process of any other parties. The latest measure is more strict -- even though it is not enforceable and anybody who breaks the pledge will face no punishment.

According to the Richmond Times-Dispatch, even absentee voters will receive a notice to inform them of the pledge.

Meanwhile, Virginia's presidential primary ballot currently only includes two candidates -- Ron Paul and Mitt Romney. The rest did not meet the state's signature requirement, though the other candidates are challenging their exclusion in court.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 09:14 PM

Yes, the Republican dominated Virgina General Assembly did push thru "The Oath" but seems that the backlash bas been so great that, if I have it correctly, even Virginia's Attorney in General, Ken Cucinelli, who BTW is a thug, is going to try to have it reversed...

As for the election??? We no longer have governing... We are in a low grade civil war and everything has become a campaign for the next election...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Janie
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 09:57 PM

Thanks, Rap.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 10:55 PM

Thanks, Rap...

I check out the Richmond Times-Dispatch every day on line... I have been readin' about this one...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: David C. Carter
Date: 07 Jan 12 - 06:18 AM

We've got one coming up soon,April I think.

The only person in our house who can vote is our son,and I really don't think he's going to drag himself across the street to do so.

Anyway,seems most people here vote,not to put someone in,but to boot out the rabble that hold power at present,Sarkozy and Co.               


David

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Bainbo
Date: 07 Jan 12 - 06:36 AM

I read one UK newspaper columnist who claimed to have friends who were looking forward to it because they regarded it as a "soap opera for clever people" ... by which, of course, they meant themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 07 Jan 12 - 10:46 AM

Strikes me that "The Oath" requirement is a waste of time anyway unless the ballot for the chosen candidate isn't secret, which it surely is?

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Jan 12 - 12:36 PM

Yes, they admit that it's unenforceable and that makes the whole thing even more stupid than it has to be.

Out here in Idaho the Republicans get a requirement passed requiring a photo id to vote. Then they discovered that, for instance, a new address might not be on a driver's license -- they learned this when the head of the Republican party here was denied a vote in the election last November because the address on his driver's license didn't match with one on the polling records.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Jan 12 - 01:35 PM

In America voted ballots are secret. Except when they are not.

Absentee ballots have to be read and logged. Although there are strict rules governing the person(s) checking in the absentee votes, each absentee ballot has to be signed or it is not legal. Therefore, if that voter had signed such a pledge it would be possible to invalidate that person's vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Jan 12 - 01:36 PM

The Chinese water torture of the drips in the GOP "debates" has shifted into a full-on tap - thus beginning the waterboarding of America by the next 11 months of political campaigning. It must look like so much navel-gazing to the rest of the world.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Stringsinger
Date: 07 Jan 12 - 02:03 PM

This may be one of the worst in U.S. history. Democratic warmongers. Insane Republican elitists. Money controlling both parties and ignoring the needs of
the American people. A corrupt Supreme Court, a recalcitrant Senate and House,
a spewing of phony religious parsimony, a misappropriation of the American economy by special interests, and a crackdown on honest freedom of speech by bought and paid for law enforcement bodes very poorly for our country, not to mention a trashing of our Constitutional rights.

We are in big trouble.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Jan 12 - 03:31 PM

When I look back upon most of the last several American elections and administrations this year presents a predictable scenario. From at least Reagan on, candidates and outcomes have been pointing in this direction.

The really scary part is that we can't be sure that we have reached the nadir. The trend may continue.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Jan 12 - 10:43 PM

Ummm..is that the time we all get lied to by everybody???...Jeez, what a bunch of 'suspense'.....soap operas for old people!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Allan C.
Date: 08 Jan 12 - 08:45 AM

I imagine that one of the most difficult jobs is being a political reporter whose task it is to find anything exciting to report.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jan 12 - 12:26 PM

They solved that years ago. Now, they make it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 08 Jan 12 - 12:51 PM

When I first skimmed a newspaper article (no, I didn't read it), I thought one of the candidates was called Sanitorium!

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Jan 12 - 04:00 PM

Regarding the thread title, was there supposed to be an 's' on election?

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Jan 12 - 04:40 PM

Pete Jennings: "When I first skimmed a newspaper article (no, I didn't read it), I thought one of the candidates was called Sanitorium!"

Absolutely NO relation!!!..Nor are we from the same neighborhood!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Jan 12 - 11:55 PM

Here's the latest article from Eric Margolis:

A GENTLE VOICE OF REASON IN IOWA'S RIGHT-WING DEMENTIA
NEW YORK

January 07, 2012

America has come back, at least politically, to where it was in the far-off 1950's when Communist-scares and the modern fascism of Wisconsin Senator Joe McCarthy kept the republic in a state of anxiety and deep fear.
"Reds under our beds" was the slogan in those days of paranoia and witch-hunting. Today, the new scare is: "Muslims under our mattresses," and "Iran threatens the world."

In the McCarthy era, his Republican Party was run by East Coast moderate conservatives from New York, Boston and Washington who were well educated and worldly.

The Republican elite eventually became sickened by McCarthy's lies and alarms that the government was filled with Communists and Soviet spies.

The Soviets and their fellow travellers were a real danger, but not to the absurd degree of McCarthy's fevered claims. But for a while, his anti-Communist campaign intimidated American and held it in thrall.

Last week, we witnessed the rebirth of McCarthyism in the Iowa presidential caucus (an informal vote) as five Republican candidates struggled to outdo one another in warning of the peril of Iran and Islam – the new Red Menace.

The only Republican candidates who spoke responsibly about US foreign policy were Congressman Ron Paul and minor candidate Jon Huntsman. The other Republicans issued blood-curdling threats against Iran, and salaamed Israel without stop, heedless of the awful image of America they were presenting to the rest of world.

Iowa, a remote farming state filled by fundamentalist born again Christians, accounts for only 1% of US voters. These Bible Belt religious zealots get much of their view of the outside world either from extreme right-wing Christian radio networks, or equally right-wing, pro-Israel Fox News.

Over the past 30 years, the Republican rightwing has become joined at the hip with Israel's hard right Likud Party, hence the emergence of so-called "Christian Zionists" who are cynically exploited by Israel's Likud Party even though a generation ago their fathers may have belong to the racist, Jewish-hating Ku Klux Klan.

In short, fertile ground for the Republican party's far right. We are reminded of the great American writer Upton Sinclair, who wrote in the 1930's "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."

Accordingly, Republican candidates Mitt Romney, Rick Santorum, Newt Gingrich, Texas governor Rick Perry, and Michele Bachmann vied with one another to proclaim themselves the most devout Christian, ardent patriot, social conservative and advocate of war against Iran and its friends. Prostituting oneself to radical special interests may be good politics in rural Iowa, but it bad, bad medicine for the nation these politicians claim to represent.

Almost as bad, the calm, reasoned, sensible words of candidate Ron Paul were barely heard thanks to a conspiracy of silence by the mainstream media which bitterly opposes his calls for an end to foreign wars and big government built on a mountain of debt.

No wonder. The 76-year old Dr Paul speaks for many Americans, particularly younger ones, who are sick of war, propaganda, the growing police state, and seeing government dominated by Wall Street and special interests.

Dr. Paul asked me to Washington to brief him on Afghanistan. After, I wrote that Paul was the most honest and bravest political leader I'd met in Congress.

Dr. Paul's strong finish sends a potent message of anti-war, rebellious sentiment to Washington and President Barack Obama. There is intense disgust and dismay among Democrats, independents and even some moderate Republicans that Obama has caved into Wall Street and Israel's American lobby.

Obama's stealthy signing of a bill over Christmas that allows the Pentagon to indefinitely lock up American citizens accused of "terrorism" without trial has deeply alarmed many Americans. Even George W. Bush didn't do this.

The Republican presidential contest now moves on to New Hampshire and South Carolina, both relatively conservative states, though very different from one another. Bachmann has dropped out.

Mitt Romney leads in both states. But most American's don't trust him and think he's a phony. So the race remains open and boisterous. The Republican establishment continues to look over its shoulder in fear at the candidate who really represents the true values of America, Ron Paul.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 12:18 AM

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." Upton Sinclair

Wow

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 12:33 AM

Yup. That says it in a nutshell. I've been watching it incubate for most of my life.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Janie
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 12:34 AM

Interesting perspective, LH. Much of that piece resonates as being on target. However, it is still has a powerful, subjective political slant that boils down to propaganda on behalf of Ron Paul.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 01:17 AM

Margolis obviously believes that Ron Paul is a good candidate, a good politican, and an honest man. He believes this based on his own direct conversations with Ron Paul. Why should he not, therefore, speak out in his favour?

Is propaganda only to be called "propaganda" when it favours someone that the user of the term "propaganda" doesn't favour?

I recall that at the time Obama was elected in 2008, Margolis spoke very positively and hopefully about the good that Obama could do for America and for the world. He hailed Obama's election as a hopeful and positive change after the Bush-Cheney era.

Was that propaganda too?

It was only later that Margolis, like many others who had been well impressed by Obamn in 2008, became very disappointed in Mr Obama. Was it then that his opinion became "propaganda"? The subjective tone of the word "propaganda" is, as used in modern times, a very negative one (it wasn't always so).....but EVERY political cause inevitably uses propaganda almost constantly. Propaganda IS a stated subjective viewpoint on any political matter, and everyone out there has a subjective viewpoint on any political matter....not just "the bad guys" (which is again, a subjective viewpoint).

Under a fully realized fascist system, Eric Margolis would definitely be labelled as "a bad guy" and would probably end up being arrested and imprisoned at some point. So too would Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich, because they have openly opposed these foreign wars. Let's hope that fully realized fascist system doesn't happen. If it does, there isn't any one of us who will be safe.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 06:01 AM

No, 999, but I see what you mean!

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 09:46 AM

Me too. I see it as a "selection" every time, not a real election at all. It appears to be a real election process, but it isn't...because the result is foreordained by those who control the purse strings and the mass media.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 11:42 AM

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/shortcuts/2012/jan/08/republican-candidates-gay-rights-karger

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: gnu
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 12:15 PM

Here's a new option.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 12:26 PM

It appears to be a real election process, but it isn't...because the result is foreordained by those who control the purse strings and the mass media." Little Hawk

Respectfully, sir, may I suggest that you are so full of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: SINSULL
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 12:33 PM

If that were true, LH, you would be able to tell us right now who will be elected in November - So?

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 12:49 PM

Doesn't look as if it'll be Freddie Kruger but Rick Sanitorium's still in it. Blimey, I'm starting to sound as if I'm interested!

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: gnu
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 02:31 PM

I was gonna watch the debates but various news clips I have seen and the comments I have read in this forum have precluded that. Hard enough to watch the circus acts here in Canuckistan and we've got some real politicians. Well, we have had some.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 03:44 PM

From the Article you posted LH I have concluded that Margolis is lazy and full of crap.

Exhibit A

"Iowa, a remote farming state filled by fundamentalist born again Christians, accounts for only 1% of US voters."

If the above is true, (it iswn't) those "by fundamentalist born again Christians," voted for Obama last election.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 04:17 PM

You may suggest whatever you like, Ebbie. I'm merely stating an opinion, and I see no need to insult whoever disagrees with me about it.

SINSULL - I don't know who will be "selected" next. How would I know? I'm not among those privileged elites who make that decision. If I were, I'd certainly not have drawn attention to what they do by posting about it here, would I?

If I were to make a guess at this point, I'd say it's most likely Obama who will be elected next November...but it's probably still too early to tell for sure which way the corporate wind will decide to blow. And why should the corporates and banksters worry? They control both the major parties in the USA (just like they do all the major parties in Canada and the UK, by the way), so no matter which "selectee" gets officially elected...he will be their man (or woman, as the case may be), he will do what they want, and the agenda will go forward...with slight differences in outward political "style", depending on which party advances into office...but very little significant difference in actual content.

It's like a championship football game. The 2 teams look different...they say they are different...they even believe they are different...and the divided public believes it too, and cheers wildly for one or the other, and hates the visiting team...but all you get in the end is another damned football game, no matter who wins it. And the Football League (the rich owners) pockets the rewards.

Unlike football, though, it only happens every four years (with an exhibition game at the 2-year halftime). Oh, and it's a lot more dangerous a game than football. People get killed. Lots of people. Most of them are in other countries where they dress funny, don't speak English as their first language, and aren't Baptists.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 04:07 AM

But anyway, if LH did tell you who had been pre-selected, then he'd have to kill you.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: SINSULL
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 09:18 AM

So the decision won't be bought and made before the election? Now I am really confused.

LOL Richard - better men have tried and failed. I am old but mean.
Mary

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 12:35 PM

Right, Richard. ;-D I couldn't let her live with that knowledge, could I?

Now look, Mary...if, as I have long asserted, the same corporate/banking/military elite really controls both the Republican and the Democratic Parties....then they could easily opt to have either one of those parties win a given election, correct? And it wouldn't make a whole hell of a lot of difference which one did. The corruption and the wars would go on. And they have.

But it does make a big difference to the politicians themselves and to the party itself who wins, because there are major financial and career and ego perks involved in playing that game and winning it. This is obvious. No politician wants to lose the game.

I think the main purpose of the patently corrupt and phony election excercise that takes place every 4 years in the USA is to keep the American public itself distracted, bitterly divided, yet ever hopeful, and still naively believing in their old (once) democratic institutions, despite having been betrayed by them again, and again, and again, and again!

It's a cyclical sales and propaganada job by the ruling elite to mollify and control the American public, that's all. It sure doesn't fool anyone else. If the general American public fully realized what is actually going on in their government, if they realized the utterly criminal nature of the system they are living under, they would abandon both those parties for good and there'd be a 2nd American Revolution. Heads would roll. It would make the first Revolution look like a cakewalk.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 11:39 PM

I just hope that the UNsuccessful candidate who has sunk untold millions of his own money into the race gets reimbursed by the kingmakers who knew - in advance - who was going to win.

sheeit

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 11:57 PM

I haven't heard of any unsuccessful ex-presidential candidates going bankrupt, have you? The rich take care of their own.

Anyway, when the banks can simply create new "money" anytime they want to...in the form of debt that is owed to them by the rest of society...why should there be any lack of it for them and their cronies in business and politics.

And when you control both candidates, why do you have to know far in advance which one of them is going to win? The mood of the public is quite important in the ongoing process...that's what all the hoopla is about, it's intended to sway the mood of the public and capitalize upon it. It's necessary for the credibility of the system that the American public should periodically regain hope and confidence through a new, fresh face (like Obama's in 2008, for instance) being put in front of them! This can mean that one candidate becomes more viable than the other at some point during an election...because no one can guarantee that things won't swing in an unexpected direction...specially with other countries perhaps doing things they weren't expected to.

So the simple answer is this: Buy out the 2 candidates through funding them. Buy out virtually all the congressional candidates too in the same way. Give them all lotsa money so they can throw it into their respective propaganda efforts. Keep an eye on the process. At some point one presidential candidate will probably gain a real advantage over the other. Great. Give him even more money. He'll win. But even if he doesn't, for some unexpected reason...you still own the other candidate's soul anyway. So either way, the elite gets what they want. And that's the real story in Washington.

It's one of the parties that doesn't get what it wants at the end of an election! But why should the elite care about that? It doesn't even matter from their point of view.

Bankers are the real dictators of America. And Canada. And the UK. And most other "democracies". And your vote can't do a damn thing about it...unless you get some very brave and honest politicians at the very top who, by some miracle, manage to get enough funding to make their views known and to get elected.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 10:51 AM

Tending to look like Romney -v- Obama then...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2012/jan/11/republicans-verdict-new-hampshire-primary

Could be handy if the fundie nutters and those who say Mormonism is not Xtianity start carving lumps off the GOP and the Tea Potty abandons ship.

Mind you I still think George the Third was right.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 12:12 PM

George the Third wasn't a very good monarch...but the overall social and governmental system he was officially presiding over had much to recommend it. Having grown up in Canada, and having lived for 10 years in the USA, I'd have to say that I'd have chosen to back the loyalists in the American Revolution, not the revolutionaries.

Mind you, there were some fine people on both sides, and some good ideas on both sides. Still, I'd have sided with the Crown...and if I'd then survived the conflict I'd have moved north to Canada.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 01:42 PM

Little Hawk, I think you are a fine student of history and no doubt an excellent player of war games.

I don't give as much credence to the conclusions you draw on people themselves. Secondly, your "ten years in the US" imo are not as trust-making as you seem to think. I concede that age 10 to 20 is formative; my contention is that it is also an extremely immature portion of one's life.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 02:41 PM

Well, one needs to spend a good deal of time in both countries to be sure of where one stands, right? I lived age 1-10 in Canada. Age 10-20 in the USA. Then back to Canada, but went on some extended visits to the USA in the later 70s and 80s when I was in my late 20s/early 30s. Once was there for nine months during the late 70s. My overall impression was: There are lots of nice people in both countries...no real reason to show any favoritism there. But I do like the Canadian governmental and media and social structure a whole lot better, I like the socialized medicine in Canada, I like the national CBC radio show (with no advertising on it) and I like the fact that it's a country with a fairly modest psychological view of itself and its place in the world...that is, it's not a "great power" and never has been. Great powers get too hung up on their military prowess and various notions of their manifest destiny, and that makes me nervous.

I also can't relate very well to a society that thinks of "socialism" as if it were Satanism.

I'm not saying every American thinks that way...but a very large number of them do. That really troubles me.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 03:07 PM

Little Hawk, I agree with every one of your points in your last post. Humility as opposed to grandiosity is refreshing.

I will add, however, that Canada too may someday find its place in the glare of the sun.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 03:16 PM

It may. And if Canada then starts acting with hubris and grandiosity, I will not be pleased about it. I'm quite displeased with the present Canadian government in any case.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 03:26 PM

The glare is here.

Canada is a top polluter.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: John P
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 03:31 PM

Little Hawk, it makes a BIG difference who gets elected on the day-to-day, we-need-to-go-on-living-our-lives level. Aside from the corporate ownership of most everybody, do you really not see any difference in policies -- and results -- between the Republicans and the Democrats?

Gay rights? Separation of church and state? Tax code? Environmental protection? Judicial appointments? Military budget? Foreign policy? Consumer protection? Banking regulation? Are these all the same no matter who is in office?

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 03:42 PM

Little Hawk, I agree with much of what you say about what's wrong with the United States and what's right with Canada. But as far as that dreaded (shudder!) Socialism is concerned, I would go even further. I look at the Scandinavian countries and how well their social programs work. I am not a Socialist. But I look around the world and see what works for the benefit of a country's citizens at large and how well they get along with their neighbors on this planet, and I'm led to some inescapable conclusions.

But with all due respect, Little Hawk (not saying this specifically about you, but to all who continuously enunciate the viewpoint), "It makes no difference who you campaign for or vote for, the election has already been decided by THEM!!"—I regard as defeatism, nudged along by a mixture of laziness and cowardice.

"There's no use in my working hard, protesting and campaigning to try to bring about a better world because The Fix is In. I see it as a foregone conclusion. So I'll just crack open a beer, sit back, prop up my feet, and not strain myself."

Sorry, but that's the way I—and thank Zeus, lots of other people—look at it.

A few quotes by Margaret Mead ("a small group of people"), Thomas Jefferson ("an informed electorate'), and a few others. . . . Look 'em up.

One that I think is particularly germane is from that famous philosoper, Anonymous:   "The adage, 'you can't fight City Hall,' was started by—City Hall! Think about it!"

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 04:03 PM

"It makes no difference who you campaign for or vote for, the election has already been decided by THEM!!"

I don't think that anyone who posts on political threads actually believes this. I believe that it is repeated it ad nauseum because it is the point of view that garners the most attention. Look at the people who put this view point across here and yet contradict that point of view by speaking highly of major party officials from Hillary to Ron Paul.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 04:35 PM

True, Jack. Talking to hear their heads rattle.

Nevertheless, there are people who buy that canard. I've run into a disturbing number of people who generally wouldn't vote for a Republican, did vote for Obama, but are disappointed in what he's been able to accomplish, and say, "Oh, hell! What's the use! I don't think I'm going to vote this time around."

Constantly repeating the idea that it's already decided just discourages these folks and leaves the decision to the Philistines. Not good!

If you REALLY don't like the way things are, MOVE YOUR ARSE! GET CRACKIN'!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 05:07 PM

If you dont understand how the game is played, all your efforts will be in-effectual.

Little Hawk is quite correct,the game is corrupt; so corrupt, that in my case a lifetime of protest has changed it hardly at all, in fact in many ways todays society is more crass and self serving than the communities of my youth.

I think what Hawk is saying is that, given the nature of this political and economic system, your work should be into the construction of something better.
A game where the result is not decided before hand and where the poor are not always the losers.

Your "head rattling" remarks are insulting and quite typical.
You may be short of intelligence, but not nerve!

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 05:16 PM

I stand by what I say, Ake. Insult away if it makes you feel good.

And what I say INCLUDES changing the system. Perhaps not to one of your liking. Nevertheless.....

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 05:20 PM

You think a Chicago Democrat is interested in changing the system?
Get real!

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 05:51 PM

Yes, we need to work towards something far better. But I have never placed much hope in politics in a general sense. Politics is primarily about the use of raw power. It's a cold and ruthless game.

What I place much hope in is the individuals humans whom I know, in the good they can do, and in myself. I think each one of us has a profound potential to do wonders with our lives regardless of what the heck goes on in the world of politics.

As to whether I see any differences between the Republican and Democratic parties....of course! They are notably different, and that's exactly how the great political game works. The game is based upon dividing the public between 2 (or more) outwardly different teams...just like at a football game. The 2 teams must appear different, they must talk differently, they must attract separate groups of loyal fans, otherwise the drama of the game is lost.

I have always greatly preferred the outward appearance and style of the Democrats to that of the Republicans. I note, though, that once in office they both push pretty much the same basic agenda...while posturing in a different fashion. And I think that's because they've been bought out by the same huge monied interests.

I'm not suggesting that anyone should not vote. I vote. (Even though I think all the Canadian parties have sold out to basically the same interests.)

Every here and there is a genuinely honest politician with high ideals. When I see one, I back him up. Dennis Kucinich is one such. I don't believe Obama is...though I had hoped he might be back in 2008. He's either too weak to stand up to the elite...or he was theirs all along...and I suspect the latter is the more likely possibility.

But as I said, my real hopes in life have nothing to do with politics. They have to do with the best that there is inside each one of us...with our friends, our loved ones, our work, our highest ideals, and whatever inspires us. That's what I place my hopes upon.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 06:43 PM

So, Ake, you blanketly condemn any and all Democrats from the city of Chicago? Fie, man, fie! The depth of your analysis of Mr. Obama leaves quite a bit to be desired.

Let me be perfectly clear. I DO agree that the system is corrupt. I do NOT agree that the system is irreparable. I may eventually come to that conclusion, but not until some of us, such as the Coffee Party and the Occupy Movement, and things that are growing out of it, have taken a whack at it. The Occupy Movement has a lot of Right-Wing politicians running scared right now, and the Coffee Party is, so far, keeping a fairly low profile, but in line with Thomas Jefferson's remark about an informed electorate being essential to a viable democracy, they are informing themselves and will soon become quite active.

In the meantime, a lot of people, including some here on Mudcat, are running around like a bunch of headless chickens—and cackling insults at anyone who thinks that something might yet be done.

I am also aware that there are a few here who really won't be happy until blood runs in the streets. I, personally, would like to avoid that—if possible. Sorry if I'm working hard to deny you your pleasures (but not really!).

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: SINSULL
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 08:46 PM

There have been huge changes in my lifetime all brought about by grassroots movements supporting politicians who support the change. In my youth, women worked as secretaries and teachers then they married and had babies. Mothers did not work. They stayed home and cooked and baked and cared for children and often drank heavily ans secretly. Working women were routinely accosted sexually. (It was the norm and I will be happy to substantiate that statement with my own experiences).
My first job with an employment agency allowed women to place women in jobs paying less that $10,000/year. If we got a listing or placed a candidtae in a $10,000+ position, we had to surrender it to a male counterpart BECAUSE "he had or would have a family to support".
Couples who "lived in sin" were shunned by family and friends. Interacial couples were either trailor park trash or pariahs. Interacial children were not tolerated in white society. Gays hid in closets. In fact, they married to provide themselves a "cover". Gay children and teens were bullied, beaten, forced into "appropriate" gender roles and shunned if they could not comply. Unwed mothers had their babies "away" and never saw them again.
There was a draft but you could "opt out" by staying in college or belonging to a union whose workers were critical to the war effort - an outright lie but it kept my brothers safe.
Now tell me - what corporations, millionaires, politicians forced these changes? They didn't. The power of the VOTE did. And the power of people working, dying, going to jail for a cause they believed in.
Did some or many jump on the bandwagon to take advantage of the newly found power or just plain cover their butts and save their jobs? Yes they did. So powerful men buy their support with money; powerful groups buy their support with votes.
Occupy Wall Street had little or no power because they do not have a clearly stated message. If and when they get their act together, state their purpose clearly, form their goals clearly and practically, have credible leaders stating those goals - then they will have the power to produce some real change. It will be interesting to (it has been interesting) to watch.
And while I am rambling - I wonder if the last few years of hardship hitting the middle and lower middle class, forcing them from their jobs and homes, will result in a clear and urgent attempt to repatriate the homeless. Now that they are no longer the drunks and druggies who plague our streets but actually Joe and Marge and their three children - what positive things could come of this?
Sorry for the ramble. A homeless man from Machias froze to death this week. I keep thinking about his mother.
SINS

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: gnu
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 08:56 PM

Oh SINS... oh dear. I have tears in my eyes. That was not a ramble... not at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 10:05 PM

"There have been huge changes in my lifetime all brought about by grassroots movements supporting politicians who support the change."

Exactly so, Sins!

I, too, have seen many changes that would never have happened had it not been for rank and file citizens getting sufficiently outraged at the way things were that they got together with others who felt as they did, and put sufficient pressure on our "leaders"—who, after all, are our employees!—to enact the necessary changes. And voted out those who were adamantly blocking progress.

Franklin D. Roosevelt did a great deal for the general populace, much to the irritation of those whom Bobert characterizes as "Boss Hogg." Folks came to him and told him what they felt should be done. His response in many cases was, "I agree with you. That should be done. Now—make me do it!" In short, give him the popular support that he needed to override those (i.e., Congress) who would try to block it.

This is what Obama needs. He inherited Bush's mess and Congress has been stonewalling his every attempt to put things right. One needs to let Obama know that a substantial number of citizens are behind what he's trying to do—not just piss and moan about him when it doesn't get done—and lean heavily on those Congress members who are hell-bent on trying to see that he fails.

As a citizen, these bozos are your employees. Tell them what you want them to do. If they don't do what you want, fire them and hire someone who will.

This is done at the ballot box. But one vote obviously isn't enough. Talk to people. Know the facts and educate. Persuade!

ONE WOMAN started the Coffee Party with something she posted on her Facebook page. A sufficient number of people responded, agreed with her, and the thing took off!

Who says it's futile?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 10:17 PM

If you think the election has already been decided by "them" - by all means - stay home on election day. Let the election be decided by those of us who think otherwise.

That's assuming you're even registered to vote in this country.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 10:26 PM

Well, I find it interesting that if you listen to the BIG MEDIA talking heads they all are repeating the same BS BIG LIE: "Well, Obam will probably not get re-elected"... I mean, who is telling them to plant this seed???

Never mind... They are part of the Chamber of Commerce, corporate BS line...

So much for a "liberal media"...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 12:11 AM

That's odd. Is that what they are saying, Bobert? My expectation would be more along the lines that he will get re-elected.

I fully agree that initiatives by highly motivated individuals can help to spark change. The changes I've seen in my lifetime have been profound...some for the better...some not...but many people had to change their minds before society changed.

The politicians and elite power-mongers tend to catch up much later to public desires for change which simply cannot be held back any longer...they finally yield to those changes...and this led to integration, the end of the Vietnam War, and other great victories for progressive forces in society.

I'm all for that.

What I am not for is the existing party-based system of divisive, destructive politics and the web of corrupt patronage and lobbying that sustains it. A way has to be found to break that and replace it with something far better. Election campaigns should be greatly shortened, at least in the USA. Campaign funding is desperately in need of reform. Corporate lobbying needs to be drastically curtailed. I'm not sure how any of that can be accomplished within the present system, because it is financially beneficial to the elected politicians NOT to change it.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 02:07 AM

"…..the existing party-based system of divisive, destructive politics and the web of corrupt patronage and lobbying that sustains it."

Little Hawk, the current system is no more corrupt than it was under Nixon, which, God knows, was corrupt enough. Yet, when enough people got together and demanded it, Nixon was forced—by the people—to resign, and a war was stopped.

"I'm not sure how any of that can be accomplished within the present system, because it is financially beneficial to the elected politicians NOT to change it."

That was true in Nixon's time as well

We've done it before. We can do it again. The same way.

That is, as long as the defeatists (encouraged by the Powers That Be) don't go around and manage to convince everyone that it IS futile.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 03:30 AM

"This is done at the ballot box. But one vote obviously isn't enough. Talk to people. Know the facts and educate. Persuade!"

Most people, when they become "educated" realise that the rules of the game preclude them from effecting any meaningful change.
Thereafter, most decide to join the side which always wins, they convince themselves that they are working for change, when in fact those people are the biggest impediment.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 03:31 AM

Well, yes, Don, if I may quote Commander Data from Star Trek...

"Resistance is NOT futile!"

Corrupt systems do fall eventually, whether by the people's will...or due to their own mismanagement and hubris...or by some other means. They fall because they lose touch with reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 04:09 AM

It seems to me that the current Republican attacks on "vulture capitalism" (even though I wonder if there is any other sort) may help to polarise the "independent voters" against Romney (if he is then the presidential candidate) when the presidential election comes.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 09:26 AM

Only if the "independent voters" are morons- I thought the Repubs & their fellow travellers WORSHIPPED capitalism, free enterprise and "the invisible hand of the market".

Of course, with 40% of the U.S. population not "believing in" evolution, morons are pretty plentiful.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 10:09 AM

"It seems to me that the current Republican attacks on "vulture capitalism" (even though I wonder if there is any other sort) may help to polarise the "independent voters" against Romney (if he is then the presidential candidate) when the presidential election comes."

Romney was a real life Gordon Gecko from the first "Wall Street" film.

Romney has been promoting himself as someone who "knows how to create jobs" because of his experience at Bain. The Democrats had been planning all along to attack him on the basis that Bain Capital basically made its money by liquidating companies and destroying jobs.
The only difference is, when they use Republicans in the ads, the ads will get more credence.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: SINSULL
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 02:16 PM

That was a Gallup Poll, Greg. 40% said they believe in creationism. I would have to see how the questions were phrased to accept that 40% of the uS population does not accept any evidence of evolution. Many creationists believe that there was a creation AND an evolution.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 02:27 PM

Greg F has proven he has noi interest in the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 02:32 PM

Seems truthful enough. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/20/40-of-americans-still-bel_n_799078.html

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: John P
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 05:10 PM

Akenaton, I have no hope of changing the system with my vote. Of course everything is owned and run by the rich. As a socialist, I am so far from most of my fellow citizens that I feel like I'm alone in a wasteland. I am painfully aware of how little influence me or anyone I know will ever have on the basic nature of our culture.

What my vote can get me is an administration that cares a little more about normal people, that wants to regulate (and tax!) the rich, that wants us to live according to our constitution, and that doesn't promote official discrimination against women, immigrants, people of color, and gay people.

This has been said here many times and no one has ever come up with a rational answer for it. So, Akenaton and Little Hawk, take your "nothing makes any difference" bullshit and shove it. Or you could answer the point without repeating what you've already said on the subject over and over and over again. You're both very boring as things stand.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 05:24 PM

John, you simply do not understand my position at all if you think that I think that "nothing makes any difference".

As for people "repeating what (they)'ve already said on the subject over and over and over again"....EVERYBODY does that. Everybody in the friggin' WORLD does that. On EVERY conceivable subject. Without fail. Yourself included. Everybody here repeats themselves because they are expressing their own accustomed thoughts and views, and their own thoughts and views are consistently and naturally organized according to their own unique view of things. So they repeat themselves, don't they? They'd have to stop being themselves and become someone else to avoid repeating themselves.

If you find my repetitive thoughts so boring, just don't read my posts anymore and save yourself the stress of all those unpleasant hostile reactions you seem to be experiencing.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 05:40 PM

I'm also basically a socialist, by the way, I always have been, and I DO vote for whichever candidates I have the most confidence in, with the hope that it might make some small improvement in things. I probably have a good deal more in common with you than you seem to think I do.

Where I differ most radically from most people is: They take a political party-based system for granted, having grown up in it, and they think that it is a necessary and integral part of a representative democracy.

I don't. I think the custom of having ANY political parties whatsoever is a political aberration, a huge mistake in human history, and that the political parties themselves are destroying genuinely representative democracy not only in the USA, but all across the world.

That's why I have little or no confidence in any of them.

But I still vote for the individual candidates I feel are the best at any given time...regardless of their party affiliation.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 05:41 PM

Little Hawk I think he does understand your position quite well enough. You do keep restating the same irrelevant position in relation to many different topics. Basically, you try to change the topic of most aspects of US federal politics from what ever specific topic is being discussed to "There is no difference between the parties, the fix is in."

Most of the the rest of us would rather talk about Romney, or corn subsidies or OWS or whatever the thread was started to talk about.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 06:03 PM

Fine. Let's all just talk about whatever interests us, okay? I don't particularly mind the fact that various people here see some political matters differently than I do, so why do they mind that I see some political matters differently than they do?

If we waited to be "happy" until everyone else who dared speak out   agreed with us about everything, we'd have a long wait, wouldn't we?

Regarding the OWS movement, I've always been strongly in favour of it. I like the fact that it's nonpartisan, and that it questions the ruling order.

Romney? I'm not impressed. He seems to be like a marshmallow...able to reshape himself to fit any desired aperture. :-D (but that's pretty common behaviour for politicians, come to think of it)

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 06:09 PM

Yesterday Ake said.."You think a Chicago Democrat is interested in changing the system?"

today JohnP said:.."Of course everything is owned and run by the rich."

Even though I see the point of both remarks...and to some extent see the germ of relevance in both of them... I am so weary of ANYONE trying to make serious points with such generalizations. As Don F. indicated, not all Chicago Democrats exhibit the 'classic' mentality of Chicago politics from the middle of the last century.

And ".. everything is owned and run by the rich." is simply inaccurate. Perhaps too MUCH is, and being rich can **tend** to make one feel like being rich is a birthright and helps them justify nefarious ways to stay rich and get richer.
   I SEE all that.. but real understanding of the system is hindered by relying on simplistic slogans and generalizations. It gets wise nods in a session of bitching, but barely scratches the surface of how money, politics, culture, education, media and various personalities interact to form the constantly changing dynamic we encounter when we try to cope...and when we decide how - or whether - to vote!

It simply takes more time than most people are able or willing to devote to sort out the wheat from the chaff in political ads and to listen to 27 different pundits declaim at length on THEIR interpretation.
Often it comes down to deciding which is "the lesser of two evils", even though the concept of 'evil' is never clearly thought out.

What we DO see is that the Republicans are engaged in an amazing game of "Whack-a-Mole" where all the moles AND all the observers have whacking mallets! No one seems to be making the point that they might all be right in their condemnations and characterizations of each other.
I expect that a major portion of the Democratic platform and campaign this year will be to clarify just how the 'problems' and disappointments that people feel did NOT begin with Obama.
There is some doubt these days just how a gen-you-wine honest, committed and competent president/leader CAN manage to juggle 23 balls, figure out what makes sense, gather money, give speeches, gain votes ....and get any sleep.

Gonna be interesting, hmmm?

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 06:24 PM

"... I think the custom of having ANY political parties whatsoever is a political aberration,"

Right! I tend to agree.. maybe we should find others who think that way and get organized! We could have a convention and field a candidate....

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 06:41 PM

100

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 06:51 PM

Ha! ;-D No, Bill. Think back: they did not yet have any political parties at the original Constitutional Convention. And James Monroe, one of your founding fathers, advised strongly against ever forming them, saying it would eventually destroy democracy. I believe he was quite correct about that.

You don't need political parties in order to provide a field of candidates for an election...but as soon as you have those parties in existence, they completely take over the process, and their primary purpose becomes enlarging and perpetuating themselves and securing a hold on power by any means possible, fair or foul. And the politicians all become servants of the parties themselves, NOT servants of the public.

Like a corporation, a political party is a potentially immortal and self-perpetuating artificially created entity that devours and outlasts the very people who form it. It's a monster.

A one-party system is probably even more pernicious. It's an even bigger monster.

The best system is to have no parties whatsoever, and to provide equal public funding for a broad slate of independent candidates who get elected by the public NOT on a partisan basis, but strictly on their own individual merits and ideas. They then form a national legislature, vote for some officers amongst themselves to help organize it in a procedural sense, and then work as a united parliament of independent voices, all with an equal voice in passing legislation. That's a real democracy, devoid of party politics. It can be done. It has been done here and there in the past. It should be done. It would end much of the corruption of the present order (though surely not all of it).

That's a political theory. Yeah, I know it's not going to happen in the near future...or is at least very unlikely to...but I am discussing political theory, okay? If we didn't now and then consider theoretical alternatives to things we've all grown up with, how would humanity ever move forward to anything better than what they already have?

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Songwronger
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 07:01 PM

In our New Year's poll, when asked what news event they fear most about 2012, Americans by a margin of two-to-one said Obama's reelection. Only 16 percent said they fear the Democrat won't win a second term, while 33 percent said they fear four more years.

http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/washington-whispers/2012/01/09/poll-americans-2-1-fear-obamas-reelection

Obama's history. The only way he'll another term is with a 2000-style supreme court theft. Good riddance.

Romney currenly has 12 electoral votes and Ron Paul has 10. I hope Paul gets the nomination and doesn't split the vote with a third-party run, but we'll see. I guess that's another way Obama could get another term.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 07:51 PM

"The best system is to have no parties whatsoever, .."

Perhaps...but you KNOW like-minded folks would collude behind the scenes. It might be safer to keep them semi-public about it. *IF* there are to be parties, a genuine multi-party system like Israel uses could at least allow people to group themselves into arrangements that more closely represent their actual views....This would require a total change in the primary process and voting procedures, as well as congressional changes.

"...but strictly on their own individual merits and ideas."

That is the rub....such a system would allow really good ideas and candidates, but would also invite every off-the-wall kook to claim equal rights to the process instead of being vetted BY the party system. (as we see at the moment, it is already a problem within the system). Designing a way to sort thru the field without $$$ involved would be tricky. I AM willing to consider ideas to make that work.

Remember, the Greek system required everyone to serve a term, like the jury system.... that both intrigues & scares me.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Jan 12 - 03:23 AM

Bill, I have a very good friend who was part of the Domocrat organisation in Chicago, the same organisation which propagated Mr obama.



She is now married and resides in Scotland, but is a child of a top Dem political family. I can assure you that the "classic Chicago mentality" has not been left in the twentieth century.
She was a supporter of Mr Obama,as she believed that the groundswell of support for him would inspire the man; she was bitterly disapointed, but not surprised when that political capital was squandered.
"It is the Chicago disease", said she.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Jan 12 - 08:52 AM

That's not what is usually meant by "Chicago politics".

And given that AFAIK the polls for Obama against any republican show Obama several points clear I don't understand how Songwronger's assertion above can be correct.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Jan 12 - 09:30 AM

Conclusions from the poll Songwronger quoted are deeply suspect.

"What is your SINGLE biggest fear?" Does not translate well to "Who will you vote for?"

Here are the results from the link.....

As we enter the presidential election year of 2012, what potential news event do you fear the most?

President Obama wins reelection 33%

Taxes will increase 31%

Iran will get a nuclear weapon 16%

Obama will lose reelection 16%

North Korea will attack South Korea 4%

.......

Songwronger seems to be way off base interpreting those results as a sure sign that Obama will lose. In fact if you added.

"Romney will be elected."
"Ron Paul will become President and announce the dismantling of the US monetary system."
and
"Gingrich will get his hands on the Nuclear launch codes"

The results would be much different. Obama generally does better against any single Republican than against a generic, ideal, theoretical, unexamined GOP candidate.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Jan 12 - 10:34 AM

Actually what America needs in half a dozen parties and do away with voting districts in states to favor a delegation that best represents the entire electorate... I mean, if 10% of your state's population supports the Green Party and that state had 10 House members then one should represent the interests of the Green Party...

This would force coalitions and compromise...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Jan 12 - 10:56 AM

Yes, Bobert, I think that would be much better than the present 2-party system. Half a dozen relatively equal parties would result in coalitions and compromise, as you say...rather than a bitter "us against them" mentality, which is what you have now.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Jan 12 - 11:00 AM

Isn't approximately half a dozen parties what Canada has now?

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Jan 12 - 11:12 AM

Sort of. We've got 5 parties of significant size:

Conservative Party (sort of like the Republicans, only less so)
Liberal Party (sort of like the Democrats, only more so)
New Democratic (supposedly socialist...but not really...)
Green Party (ecological?)
Bloc Quebecois (strictly in Quebec)

There are some other really small parties, but they are of little significance.

One problem with the above scenario is that our "first past the post" electoral system has resulted in a party with only about 38-40 percent of the public on its side getting a majority in the last election! This has not been good for the country. We need to have proportional representation or some other kind of voting procedure to cure that problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 13 Jan 12 - 11:36 AM

Here in the UK we have a Monster Raving Loony Party. Official website here.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 13 Jan 12 - 12:34 PM

don't agree LH, I don't think a very large number of us Americans believe that, however, on TV all one ever gets to see is the outer edges of the zany ... cause well, it makes good TV. Most americans I know have their heads screwed on pretty well

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Jan 12 - 01:27 PM

Most of the Americans I've met seem like nice folks, Olddude. Which belief were you referring to?

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Jan 12 - 04:30 PM

akenaton: You mistake 'failure' (due to new Senate rules )for being controlled by a party machine.

"She was a supporter of Mr Obama,.......she was bitterly disapointed, but not surprised when that political capital was squandered.
"It is the Chicago disease", said she."

...and you do not see how both you and your friend have inserted personal opinions into your 'analysis' of what various events meant?
Unless she was an insider and privy to personal conversations WITH Obama, she cannot possibly know why or with what pressures Obama did anything! "Political capital was squandered" is a subjective opinion based on disappointment that certain things did not happen as she wished.

Very few presidents, with the exception of Lyndon Johnson, had enough 'capital' AND knew where enough bodies were buried to be able to force legislation on the unwilling and be able to make them smile while their arms were being twisted....and LBJ was able to TALK like a southern bigot while explaining that they just HAD to pass Civil Rights legislation. Obama would not and could not do that!


--------------------------------------


From: Bobert - PM
Date: 13 Jan 12 - 10:34 AM

Actually what America needs is half a dozen parties and do away with voting districts in states to favor a delegation that best represents the entire electorate


ummm...isn't that what I just said?

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Jan 12 - 04:59 PM

I am not mistaken Bill and neither was my friend....we were referring to the promises of "change".
I said at election time, that Mr obama would change only what he was allowed to change and so it transpired, he now leads a country less free and more hated abroad than even George Bush could manage.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Jan 12 - 06:30 PM

"he now leads a country less free and more hated abroad than even George Bush could manage. "

What and ugly steaming pile of horse shit!

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Jan 12 - 10:51 PM

he now leads a country less free and more hated abroad than even George Bush could manage."

I would suggest that Ake needs a better class of friends and acquaintances.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Jan 12 - 03:23 AM

Habeas Corpus?
Drone Warfare?
Failure to stand against Israeli expansion and murdering of civilians in Iran?
Permanent presence in Iraq?
"The beat goes on"

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Jan 12 - 03:28 AM

But Hillary the Hawk did make a wonderful speech on "gay rights".....so everything's OK in the "liberal" corral.

Subject: RE: BS: Groan...another US Presidential election
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Jan 12 - 11:19 AM

"..obama would change only what he was allowed to change "

Allowed by WHOM? Ask the Republican senate why they refuse to pass anything of significance! The whole point is to be able to say "he failed to pass anything"

Again...you are inserting your opinions as if they are what the world in general thinks.

You toss out lines like "Failure to stand against Israeli expansion and murdering of civilians in Iran?" as if it was obvious that he both could and should do such.

"Drone warfare" ... as opposed to the old-fashioned way of dealing with enemies that Bush & company employed? Like inventing an excuse to send 200,000 soldiers to run in circles and get themselves killed? Much of the drone warfare was needed because of the surge in terrorist activity caused BY Bush policies. NOTHING about warfare...on ANY level... is happy or easy to make palatable, but if we must cope with terror groups, drones are both cheaper & safer than about any other means.

Ake... one could take most of your complaints and opinions and cut & paste them into Republican political speeches and no one would notice.

(Jack & Ebbie said it more succinctly than I did, but you get the idea)