BS: UK Domestic heating costs

Subject: BS: UK Domestic heating costs
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 11:39 AM

Someone somewhere may have an idea. I've been trawling through web sites until I'm thoroughly confused!

The situation is that we have an old oil burner in our future kitchen that is going to be in the way during a "soon to come" phase of our house re-modelling. We have a large oil tank outside to go with it.

We need heat for the central heating system but the hot water and some heat for the central heating may well be coming from our wind turbine installation once we work out where to fit a large tank with immersion heaters and how to fit a bit of kit that switches these in when we are generatng in excess of our normal usage. So it could be a total heat for the house or just a part ot that total that is requred from the burner.

We could buy a new oil burner and put it in the next room (the workshop) without too much problems or plumbing alterations.

Another alternative is to switch to LPG and have a tank for that installed in a different part of the garden.

The oil burner costs more than the LPG burner.

The oil is currently cheaper than the LPG.

It could be useful to have the space clear where the oil tank is and have a shed there in its place. We do have space for a new LPG tank elsewhere.

You can only shop around between LPG suppliers once your initial contract with the first one who installed the tank is complete, so you are stuck with their rates.

You can switch between oil suppliers whenever you want (which we do now).

I'm not considering biomass or wood burners for various reasons and we have ground complications involving water boreholes and land drains when it comes to Ground Source heat pumps.

Any ideas on what is the most cost effective way to go, or pointers to a good way of calculating an accurate forecast of the costs?

Subject: RE: BS: UK Domestic heating costs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 11:47 AM

Is there mains gas to you?

Subject: RE: BS: UK Domestic heating costs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 11:52 AM

And another thought.

A house I nearly bought once (as well as various open hearths/aga/etc all needing furbishing) had a relatively modern gas boiler - but it would only work when the electricity was on because of electrical control systems - and an absolutely neolithic oil burner, BOTH of which would feed the central heating pipes via a couple of control valves (manual) so if there was a power cut and the gas heating then went off - oil soaked rag in the flame bed of the oil burner, turn the valves, toss in a match and stand back with eyebrows intact...

It was of course thermosiphon large bore central heating with no electrical pump for circulation.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Domestic heating costs
From: theleveller
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 12:12 PM

You seem to have considered all the possibilities with the exception of air source heating - I got a mailer from my electricity supplier about it the other day (think it's EDL). They do a free survey.

Boiler Juice is a good place to get competitive quotes for your oil (don't get tied into a regular monthly payment contract - in my experience it's a ripoff). LPG is horrendously expensive.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Domestic heating costs
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 01:39 PM

LPG is a no-no (very expensive) I'd recommend a new oil burner, as the old one would probably be inefficient and dodgy. If you do go for oil, make sure your existing oil tank is in good condition and bunded. (lined with a second tank in case of leakage) or get a new tank. I've found Boiler Juice not to give very good quotes. I made a list of oil companies and ring round about six to get the best price. Our usual supplier (Goff) then honours the cheapest quote.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Domestic heating costs
From: Newport Boy
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 01:40 PM

You would need a large wind turbine to get effective heat from it after your normal usage - I doubt 6kW would be enough.

I considered LPG when I converted this (small) barn, and would probably have gone for it, but I couldn't find a suitable site for the tank. The restrictions are considerable, and much more severe than for oil.

On the whole, I don't regret going for oil, although I was able to use a conventional (rather than condensing) boiler. The cost of a condensing oil boiler 9 years ago was horrendous. Interestingly, the oil/LPG price comparison came down in favour of oil in 1970, 1981 and 2001 - the years when I've installed new systems.

Phil

Subject: RE: BS: UK Domestic heating costs
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 06:04 PM

We are deffinately off the mains gas, by about 2 miles!

The turbine generated 11,000 kWh in the first year and we think that we needed about 3,000 for our normal use, so could have had 8,000 divered towards heating up water (not quite the same in practice I realise, it would get to the point where the thermostats on the immersion heater elements would cut out).

The problem withair source is that just when you need it the most it is the least efficient, i.e. in the coldest weather Last winter (2010-2011) we got down to -12 centigrade some nights. Not as bad as down in the valley where it dropped to -18.

It's looking like a new oil burner so far.

Just to confuse matters a little we shall be using propane for our gas hob on the cooker (electric fan ovens below).

Subject: RE: BS: UK Domestic heating costs
From: theleveller
Date: 13 Jan 12 - 05:09 AM

We found a mixed source solution the best: oil for the central heating, woodburner in living room and multifuel (wood/solid fuel)in the dining room and propane/electricity for cooking (make sure you get two tanks with an automatic switchover and check them regularly. We use about 1 a year.)

Subject: RE: BS: UK Domestic heating costs
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 13 Jan 12 - 03:13 PM

Could you use the hot water to heat the house and have central heating as backup...mg

Subject: RE: BS: UK Domestic heating costs
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 13 Jan 12 - 08:27 PM

Spending some of your money on really improving insulation can still give you the biggest bang for your buck. My son super-insulated his 2500 sq. ft house (R-14 in the walls; R28 on the attic) and heated the whole place last winter on a cord of wood.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Domestic heating costs
From: GUEST,eric the viking
Date: 17 Jan 12 - 06:27 PM

Up on Orkney we use propane for the cooker, electric for the ovens and grill. Multi fuel in the living room which spreads throughout the house in the day. (But coal mostly) We have an oil burner for central heating and the cost of oil has more than doubled in the last three years. (there is an immersion for hot water if we use more than the oil heating produces...rarely) It's a big house in a very windy spot. It's old even and with the latest standard double glazing a bugger to heat up. Our neighbours have just fitted solar panels (16 of them) They now have their house red hot and get paid for it !! (Envy, envy...haha) The point of this is that we have an old fashioned non condensing boiler (Rhino) It is only three years old and cost around £700. It runs very efficiently and we use around 1600-1800 litres a year. (7 rooms and two bathrooms). Have you thought about ground source heat pump even with the problems you outlined? They work well up here and in Shetland. Our neighbours would have had a wind turbine but it would have been too close to their house.(You have to accept the noise) From those people I know with wind turbines, they are laughing all the way to the bank. You can get automatic switching. Good luck

Subject: RE: BS: UK Domestic heating costs
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 07:32 AM

The turbine looks to be a good investment so far. The Feed-in-tarrif means that it should pay for itself in about 8 - 10 years, and that tarrif lasts for 20 years, the expected life of the turbine.

I have double insulated quite a bit of the wall area of the house. It has cavity walls but the cavity is not filled as it is too damp (not that well built). I have put a plasterboard surface up with an insulation filled cavity on many parts of the external walls.

I am working on the roof space, putting in cross beams at 90 degrees and creating an 8" depth of insulation with a floor surface above that for storage, then insulating the inside of the roof rafters with a reflective foil "quilt".

It may be possible to use a ground heat system but I will have to get some expert knowledge about how to set it up without damaging the field drains' effectiveness.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Domestic heating costs
From: Cats
Date: 19 Jan 12 - 06:43 AM

I have a 400+ year old house with 4 foot thick granite walls and solid slate floors. Yesterday the oil central heating engineer told me I need a new boiler as mine is over 30 years old so have decided to start from scratch. I can't have this or that because of the build of the house so have asked an engineer from our local renewables company,who did my solar panel 5 years ago, to come out and look and tell me what will work and what won't. It's probably the easiest thing to do. He's coming Monday so watch this space.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Domestic heating costs
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 19 Jan 12 - 06:47 AM

I should think if you live up there in the Orkneys, eric the Viking, the wind is something amazing. The only prob is maybe it blows too strongly and sets the turbine on fire. (I've seen pictures of that from Scotland)

Subject: RE: BS: UK Domestic heating costs
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 19 Jan 12 - 09:25 AM

The turbine in the news that was on fire is one of the bigger ones.

I've been told that the firm that makes the "Proven" turbines has run into difficulties because of the number of repairs tht they had to make to their products.

I decided on an "Evance" because I was impressed by what I could see of their engineering standards. It's supposed to be OK up to at least 130 mph winds. It "feathers" the blades when the wind gets enough to put it over its maximum generation rate. The blades are not quite mounted in a radial position at the hub but instead at a tangent to a circle of about 2' diameter. They have an elegant spring system that rotates them along their length as the speed of the wind increases.

The "Proven" turbines face away from the wind and as the speed. increases the blades fold away from the wind along a hinge line near the hub.

The figures that I have been given suggest an efficiency of about 58% for the "Proven" and 93% for the "Evance".