BS: Operation Fast and Furious

Subject: RE: BS: Operation Fast and Furious
From: gnu
Date: 30 Jun 12 - 01:42 PM

Carlin sang okay. No stems, no seeds that you don't need...

Subject: RE: BS: Operation Fast and Furious
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jun 12 - 01:38 PM

Maybe George Carlin taught him to sing in return..

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Operation Fast and Furious
From: pdq
Date: 30 Jun 12 - 01:34 PM

Secret Wiretaps Implicate Holder's DOJ in 'Fast and Furious' Scandal


by Tony Lee

One day after the historic vote that held Attorney General Eric Holder to be in criminal contempt of Congress, Darrell Issa (R-CA) revealed details of secret wiretap applications from the Justice Department that implicates them even more in the "Fast and Furious" gunwalking scandal that resulted in the murder of a U.S. border patrol agent.

Issa submitted these details to the Congressional Record by submitting a letter to Elijah Cummings (D-MD). Cummings have denied any wiretap applications contained details that would have tipped off those in the know, according to Roll Call, but Issa's letter suggests Holder and Cummings were not truthful about what was in the wiretap application, which was signed by some of the most senior officials in the Department of Justice.

According to Roll Call:

    The wiretap applications are under court seal, and releasing such information to the public would ordinarily be illegal. But Issa appears to be protected by the Speech or Debate Clause in the Constitution, which offers immunity for Congressional speech, especially on a chamber's floor.
    According to the letter, the wiretap applications contained a startling amount of detail about the operation, which would have tipped off anyone who read them closely about what tactics were being used.
    Holder and Cummings have both maintained that the wiretap applications did not contain such details and that the applications were reviewed narrowly for probable cause, not for whether any investigatory tactics contained followed Justice Department policy.
    The wiretap applications were signed by senior DOJ officials in the department's criminal division, including Deputy Assistant Attorney General Jason Weinstein, Deputy Assistant Attorney General Kenneth Blanco and another official who is now deceased.

Roll Call further reported the "application included details such as how many guns specific suspects had purchased via straw purchasers and how many of those guns had been recovered in Mexico," in addition to describing how "ATF officials watched guns bought by suspected straw purchasers but then ended their surveillance without interdicting the guns."

Issa excoriated the DOJ's lack of oversight:

   Although ATF was aware of these facts, no one was arrested, and ATF failed to even approach the straw purchasers. Upon learning these details through its review of this wiretap affidavit, senior Justice Department officials had a duty to stop this operation. Further, failure to do so was a violation of Justice Department policy.

The coverup is always worse than the crime, and the question at the heart of the Fast and Furious scandal has been what the Department Justice knew and when they knew it.

After Issa's letter implicating the Department of Justice in the Fast and Furious scandal, those questions are about to get a lot more intense, pressure on Holder will increase, and the public's demand for answers will intensify.

Now if only the mainstream media would do its job and put pressure on the DOJ, not the Congressmen investigating them.

Subject: RE: BS: Operation Fast and Furious
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 30 Jun 12 - 02:29 AM

Yeah, i thought he sounds like 'Kermit the Frog'..but his piano playing is great, and his lyrics are among the most insightful, on certain subjects!!...and, as I posted before, but you might not have read, he wrote sketches and material for George Carlin!..Not too shabby!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Operation Fast and Furious
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Jun 12 - 06:22 PM

Yeah, GfinS... Biff needs voice lessons... Hey, I ain't sayin' that I'm Pavarotta but I been around music long enough to know when someone is just should write songs and let singers sing them... Sorry...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Operation Fast and Furious
From: gnu
Date: 29 Jun 12 - 05:53 PM

Operation Fast and furious? Didn't that take place in the Oral Office?

Subject: RE: BS: Operation Fast and Furious
From: pdq
Date: 29 Jun 12 - 05:47 PM

Eric Holder is now in contempt of Congress and several Democrats joined the majority to place him there.

This story was pushed to the bottom by the ObamaCare vote, but it ain't going away.

Nobody died as a result of WaterGate. Hundreds of people died in F & F and we deserve some answers.

There may not be any punishment for this stupidity, but the American People need to know what happened. The House Committee investivgating the matter is on our side. They are not the enemy.

Subject: RE: BS: Operation Fast and Furious
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Jun 12 - 12:10 PM

Beardedbruce: ""How should sites like Mudcat deal with posters who are obviously mentally ill???"

Let them stay in the crying room/nursery, while the parents attend their party's convention????.....trying to get abortion rights expanded???

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Operation Fast and Furious
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Jun 12 - 11:03 AM

Which gets us back to the question posed by a blues singer worthy of respect for his knowledge and singing skills:

"How should sites like Mudcat deal with posters who are obviously mentally ill???"

Subject: RE: BS: Operation Fast and Furious
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Jun 12 - 10:59 AM

As for your claim



""Fast and Furious" was turned over to Obama from the Bush administration..."


"After President Barack Obama took office in 2009, the DOJ reviewed Wide Receiver in September 2009[26] and found that guns had been allowed into the hands of suspected gun traffickers. Indictments began in 2010, over three years after Wide Receiver concluded."


So, the Obama Administration KNEW that the Bush Program, ENDED IN 2007, was wrong.

This is an indictment of Obama, NOT Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: Operation Fast and Furious
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Jun 12 - 10:32 AM

Bobert,

YOU state:"Let's lay this thing in terms of reality...

"Fast and Furious" was turned over to Obama from the Bush administration...

Anyone want to debate that???

Great, I didn't think so..."



I wish to debate it. This is another "Bobert Fact", like more Palestinain refugees than the total population of Palestine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Fast_and_Furious

2009–2011: Operation Fast and Furious
On October 26, 2009, a teleconference was held at the Department of Justice in Washington, D.C. to discuss U.S. strategy for combating Mexican drug cartels. Participating in the meeting were Deputy Attorney General David W. Ogden, Assistant Attorney General Lanny A. Breuer, ATF Director Kenneth E. Melson, Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) Administrator Michele Leonhart, Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation Robert Mueller and the top federal prosecutors in the Southwestern border states. They decided on a strategy to identify and eliminate entire arms trafficking networks rather than low-level buyers.[3][28][29] Those at the meeting did not suggest using the "gunwalking" tactic, but ATF supervisors would soon use it in an attempt to achieve the desired goals.[30] The effort, beginning in November, would come to be called Operation Fast and Furious for the successful film franchise, because some of the suspects under investigation operated out of an auto repair store and street raced.[3]
The strategy of targeting high-level individuals, which was already ATF policy, would be implemented by Bill Newell, special agent in charge of ATF's Phoenix field division. In order to accomplish it, the office decided to use "gunwalking" as laid out in a January 2010 briefing paper. This was said to be allowed under ATF regulations and given legal backing by U.S. Attorney for the District of Arizona Dennis K. Burke. It was additionally approved and funded by a Justice Department task force.[3] However, long-standing DOJ and ATF policy has required arms shipments to be intercepted.[4][5]
In November 2009, the Phoenix office's Group VII, which would be the lead investigative group in Fast and Furious, began to follow a prolific gun trafficker. He had bought 34 firearms in 24 days, and he and his associates bought 212 more in the next month. The case soon grew to over two dozen straw purchasers, the most prolific of which would ultimately buy more than 600 weapons.[3][5][31]
The tactic of letting guns walk, rather than interdicting them and arresting the buyers, led to controversy within the ATF.[5][32] As the case continued, several members of Group VII, including John Dodson and Olindo Casa, became increasingly upset at the tactic of allowing guns to walk. Their standard Project Gunrunner training was to follow the straw purchasers to the hand-off to the cartel buyers, then arrest both parties and seize the guns. They watched guns being bought illegally and stashed on a daily basis, while their supervisors, including David Voth and Hope MacAllister, prevented the agents from intervening.[3]


Or are YOU claiming Bush was still President in Oct, 2009? Shall I quote this as proof that Obama is NOT the president, since YOU deny it?



I think calling those who disagree with you "hypocritical liars" when YOU fail to tell the truth and demonstrate hypocrisy in regards to your statements about what others believe to be an example of the pot calling the kettle black.

You have consistently made claims about other people while demonstrating those same characteristics in your own postings. Yet when others act as you have THEY need mental treatments.

Please look back at your claimed expertise, and tell me what that type of behavior is diagnosed as.

Subject: RE: BS: Operation Fast and Furious
From: pdq
Date: 21 Jun 12 - 10:20 AM

Yesterday, Senator Grassley said that their committee traced Fast and Furious only to an Assistant US Attorney General, not as far up as Holder. Certainly not as far up as Obama.

By claiming Executive Privilege, Obama has put himself righ in the middle of the mess. His choice.

As they say, "if you have nothing to hide...".

Fast and Furious is one of the most outrageous acts ever committed by the Executive Branch and they people of the this country deserve the Truth.

If Obama is embarrassed, that's tough.

The head law enforcement officer in the country of Mexico claims that over 200 Mexican citizens have been killed by weapons supplied by Fast and Furious!

Subject: RE: BS: Operation Fast and Furious
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Jun 12 - 09:43 AM

True.....we know that...the problem is, that Obama has now implicated himself by exerting 'Executive Privilege'....
Funny, this is being claimed, while being investigated for White House leaks of Top Secrets to the press.....
Maybe Bobert or Don, can make sense of it.....as soon as they get their equilibrium, back.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Operation Fast and Furious
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jun 12 - 09:32 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Operation Fast and Furious
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Jun 12 - 05:08 AM

"The Obama administration told a U.S. House panel that the president is asserting executive privilege and refusing to turn over documents sought by lawmakers related to a U.S. law enforcement gun operation."

Posted without comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Operation Fast and Furious
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Jun 12 - 11:35 PM

Though this event is a sad turn of events, for our country, reading this thread about it is, at least somewhat amusing. I've already heard the 'so-called left's' spin, and even know new ones that haven't been used..yet(depends on what options would be open)....and Bobert, dear, Bobert, you've been hittin' all the talking points, with pretty good accuracy..I mean I've heard them on and off, all afternoon....and one by one, some of the interviewers are knocking them all down...so, in all fairness to you, I thought I'd give you a shot at commenting on THIS!!!

Ok....your turn.
BTW did you listen to Biff?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Operation Fast and Furious
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jun 12 - 10:18 PM

Yup...

So much for the "liberal media"...

Now it's way on the right and doesn't pass up any chance to poke Obama in the eye...

This the the biggest NON-story ever...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Operation Fast and Furious
From: pdq
Date: 20 Jun 12 - 10:09 PM

The Media is now starting their own investigations!

CBS nails ATF coverup attempt on guns found at Brian Terry's murder scene
by Hugh Holub on Sep. 02, 2011,

CBS News reporter Sharyl Attkisson absolutely has nailed ATF in trying to cover up the discovery of "Fast and Furious" guns at the murder scene of Border Patrol agent Brian Terry.

Congressional investigators tell CBS News there's evidence the U.S. Attorney's office in Arizona sought to cover up a link between their controversial gunwalking operation known as "Fast and Furious" and the death of Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry.

Terry was murdered in Arizona near the US border last December. Two assault rifles ATF had allegedly allowed onto the street without interdiction were found at the scene.

But the US Attorney's office working both the Terry murder and the "Fast and Furious" operation did not immediately disclose the two had any link. Two Republicans investigating the scandal, Sen. Charles Grassley (R-IA) and Rep. Darrell Issa (R-CA) say there's evidence that officials at ATF and the US Attorney's office sought to hide the connection.

In a letter, Grassley and Issa say the lead prosecutor on Fast and Furious, Assistant US Attorney Emory Hurley, learned almost immediately that guns allowed onto the street in his case, had been recovered at Terry's murder. "In the hours after Agent Terry's death," says the letter from Grassley and Issa, Hurley apparently "contemplated the connection between the two cases and sought to prevent the connection from being disclosed." The Justice Department recently transferred Hurley out of the criminal division into the civil division.

An internal ATF email dated the day after Terry's death reveals the quick decision to not disclose the source of the weapons found at the murder scene: "... this way we do not divulge our current case (Fast and Furious) or the Border Patrol shooting case."

Another ATF email indicates that the justification both offices used to not charge the suspect with crimes related to the murder scene "was to not 'complicate' the FBI's investigation."

ATF whistleblowers revealed the link between the two cases to Congressional investigators and CBS News, saying their supervisors were attempting to cover it up.

Today's letter from the Congressional Republicans also criticizes Hurley's boss, US Attorney Dennis Burke. It says Burke denied a connection between Fast and Furious and Terry's murder in court, but recently "readily admitted the connection" in an interview with Congressional investigators. Burke resigned from his job on Tuesday.

The Justice Department had no immediate comment.

Former BATFE Phoenix office group supervisor Peter Forcelli testified before the House oversight committee that the US Attorney's office in Phoenix refused to prosecute what he called clear cases of straw purchasing. He specifically fingered Assistant US Attorney Emory Hurley and US Attorney Dennis Burke.

Dennis Burke, U.S. Attorney, a Democrat, worked on the Obama-Biden transition team. Currently, he serves in an advisory capacity to both Attorney General Eric Holder — also as chair of the Subcommittee on Border and Immigration Law Enforcement — and Homeland Security Secretary Napolitano, for whom he was chief of staff when Napolitano was governor of Arizona.

Because of this inaction, Forcelli had to turn to the Arizona State Attorney General to prosecute firearms law violations. The Justice Department has blamed the general 'gun culture' in Arizona for making it difficult to tell a straw purchaser from anyone else in the Grand Canyon state.

BATFE agent Lee Casa refuted that assertion with extreme prejudice, saying that when you see someone purchasing hundreds of guns over time, there's very little ambiguity as to what's going on.

Subject: RE: BS: Operation Fast and Furious
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jun 12 - 09:18 PM

Delusional, wrongman...

Certain ops are passed on from one administration to the next... They are complicated... Neither Obama not Holder actually knew what was happening in the underworld of the CIA...

Yes, the cop was shot while Obama was president... So what???... If this entire sting were to be put under a microscope and Bush be held to the same standards the the current crop of hypocritical Repubs are holding Obama then Bush might be looking for another country in which to hide...

Like they say in basketball, "Call it both ways, Ref..."

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Operation Fast and Furious
From: Songwronger
Date: 20 Jun 12 - 09:05 PM

Oh, the Bushes go way back with the guns and drug running. G.H.W. Bush ran the Iran-Contra operation. He handpicked Bill Clinton to replace him because Clinton proved to be a reliable capo (mafioso lieutenant) while governor of Arkansas. Clinton protected Bush's CIA airstrip at Mena, where drugs were landed. George W. Bush ended up with drugrunner Barry Seale's plane after Seale was murdered.

Obama and his crew are just the latest drug and gunrunners on the scene. The timeline stretches back to the Rockefeller's opiate empire up to today's pharmaceutical assault on America. Drugs (and the guns needed to move them) are the heavy hammers being used to wreck America. With drugs you get loss of family, loss of religion, loss of mental acuity, increased government interference.

Obama and Holder are such primitives though, compared to the others I mentioned. It appears they've been set up. Punked, just in time for the election. Romney will be more suave as he deals in guns and drugs.

Subject: RE: BS: Operation Fast and Furious
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jun 12 - 09:04 PM

Thanks for the assist, pdq...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Operation Fast and Furious
From: pdq
Date: 20 Jun 12 - 08:51 PM

Documents Highlight Bush-Era Incident Pre-Dating 'Fast and Furious'

Newly surfaced emails reveal problems going back to 2007 with the ATF office in Phoenix and guns "walking" across the U.S.-Mexico border.

The emails about the Bush-era problems were given to Congress by the Justice Department as part of the congressional investigation into the ATF's botched Obama-era firearms trafficking case, dubbed "Fast and Furious."

The documents show that the special agent in charge of the ATF's Phoenix office, William Newell, was involved in a 2007 incident that resulted in guns slipping into Mexico and, later, part of Fast and Furious. Newell was the special agent in charge of the Phoenix office until earlier this year.

The incident arose on Sept. 27, 2007, when ATF agents were conducting surveillance on subjects under investigation for gun trafficking and they hoped to work with the Mexican government to interdict them. The emails' existence was first reported by The Associated Press Friday night.

Confusion over the incident came to the attention of ATF headquarters from Carson Carroll, who was then the deputy assistant director for the Office of Field Operations.

"ATF agents observed this vehicle [carrying guns] commit to the border and reach the Mexican side until it could no longer be seen," Carroll wrote in a Sept. 28, 2007 email. "We, the ATF … did not get a response from the Mexican side until 20 minutes later, who then informed us that they did not see the vehicle cross. For the first time we are working hand in hand with the GOM [Government of Mexico] and providing them with what they want and this is what we get!"

The following day, ATF Acting Director for Field Operation William Hoover was demanding information on the strategy.

"Have we discussed the strategy with the U.S. Attorney's Office re letting the guns walk? Do we have this approval in writing? Have we discussed and thought thru the consequences of same?" Hoover wrote to Newell and Carroll. "Are we tracking south of the border? Same re U.S. Attorney's Office. Did we find out why they missed the hand-off of the vehicle? What are the expected outcomes?

"I do not want any firearms to go south until further notice," Hoover wrote on Oct 5. "I expect a full briefing paper on my desk Tuesday morning from SAC Newell with every question answered."

On Oct. 6, 2007, Newell wrote in an email, "I'm so frustrated with this whole mess I'm shutting the case down and any further attempts to do something similar. We're done trying to pursue new and innovative initiatives – it's not worth the hassle."

Newell testified earlier this year about his role in Fast and Furious and acknowledged mistakes.

ATF officials did not respond Friday night to a request for comment about the new documents.

However, a spokesman for Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif., a prominent Republican involved in the Fast and Furious probe, said this earlier case appeared different than the Obama-era program.

"In contrast to Operation Fast and Furious, where Mexican authorities were deliberately kept in the dark, this operation was conducted in coordination with Mexican authorities and when supervisors discovered problems that resulted in the loss of a dozen weapons they moved to shut down the effort," Issa communications director Frederick Hill said. "The committee continues to press the Justice Department for information about this and other operations."

~ ABC News' John Parkinson contributed to this report.

Subject: RE: BS: Operation Fast and Furious
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jun 12 - 08:42 PM

Delusional, as per usual...

I guess that he wasn't president of the Harvard Student Law organization...

I guess he didn't teach "Constitutional Law"...

I guess that man didn't land on the moon...

Better get out the heavy duty tin foil, wronger... The CIA may next try to get you to believe that Obama kidnapped the Limbergh baby...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Operation Fast and Furious
From: Songwronger
Date: 20 Jun 12 - 08:36 PM

The mainstream media is reporting this as a drug sting gone "horribly wrong." Still protecting golden boy Obama. The only thing that went wrong with Fast and Furious is that the Obama team got caught.

It amazes me that people still think of Obama as a "law perfesser." His whole history was made up by the CIA to give him a patina of respectability, and every once in a while his profound ignorance breaks through that patina like a ray of noonday sun. What the HELL was he thinking invoking executive privilege? What a moron. I'd love to see someone like Leon Jaworski get hold of him. Hell, even Judge Judy could tie him up in legal knots.

I hope the media is allowed to chew on him, now that there's blood in the water.

Subject: RE: BS: Operation Fast and Furious
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jun 12 - 08:27 PM

Well, well, well...

Let's lay this thing in terms of reality...

"Fast and Furious" was turned over to Obama from the Bush administration...

Anyone want to debate that???

Great, I didn't think so...

The Repubs are all over Obama for details that were leaked over the drone strikes and the killing of Osama bin Laden because it might have put operatives in danger but want Holder to come to the House, in a public hearing, and divulge information that might put operatives in danger???

Anyone want to debate that one???

Lastly, the Repubs are all self-righteous about the life of one cop that was lost as a result of the parts of this sting that went bad...

Hmmmmmm???

Where is the outrage for the 150 cops that are shot every year (511 killed between 2000 and 2010) because of a lack of sane gun laws???

Hmmmmmm???

Hypocritical liars!!!

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Operation Fast and Furious
From: pdq
Date: 20 Jun 12 - 07:48 PM

Published September 09, 2011

A third gun linked to "Operation Fast and Furious" was found at the murder scene of Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry, new documents obtained exclusively by Fox News suggest, contradicting earlier assertions by federal agencies that police found only two weapons tied to the federal government's now infamous gun interdiction scandal.

Sources say emails support their contention that the FBI concealed evidence to protect a confidential informant. Sources close to the Terry case say the FBI informant works inside a major Mexican cartel and provided the money to obtain the weapons used to kill Terry.

Unlike the two AK-style assault weapons found at the scene, the third weapon could more easily be linked to the informant. To prevent that from happening, sources say, the third gun "disappeared."

In addition to the emails obtained by Fox News, an audio recording from a Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives agent investigating the Terry case seems to confirm the existence of a third weapon. In that conversation, the agent refers to an "SKS assault rifle out of Texas" found at the Terry murder scene south of Tucson.

The FBI refused to answer a detailed set of questions submitted to officials by Fox News. Instead, agency spokesman Paul Bresson said, "The Brian Terry investigation is still ongoing so I cannot comment." Bresson referred Fox News to court records that only identify the two possible murder weapons.

However, in the hours after Terry was killed on Dec. 14, 2010, several emails written to top ATF officials suggest otherwise.

In one, an intelligence analyst writes that by 7:45 p.m. -- about 21 hours after the shooting -- she had successfully traced two weapons at the scene, and is now "researching the trace status of firearms recovered earlier today by the FBI."

In another email, deputy ATF-Phoenix director George Gillett asks: "Are those two (AK-47s) in addition to the gun already recovered this morning?"

The two AK-type assault rifles were purchased by Jaime Avila from the Lone Wolf Trading Co. outside of Phoenix on Jan. 16, 2010. Avila was recruited by his roommate Uriel Patino. Patino, according to sources, received $70,000 in "seed money" from the FBI informant late in 2009 to buy guns for the cartel.

According to a memo from Assistant U.S. Attorney Emory Hurley, who oversaw the operation, Avila began purchasing firearms in November 2009, shortly after Patino, who ultimately purchased more than 600 guns and became the largest buyer of guns in Operation Fast and Furious.

Months ago, congressional investigators developed information that both the FBI and DEA not only knew about the failed gun operation, but that they may be complicit in it. House Government Reform and Oversight Committee Chairman Darrell Issa, R-Calif., and Sen. Charles Grassley, R-Iowa, fired off letters in July requesting specific details from FBI director Robert Mueller and Drug Enforcement Administration chief Michele Leonhart.

"In recent weeks, we have learned of the possible involvement of paid FBI informants in Operation Fast and Furious," Issa and Grassley wrote to Mueller. "Specifically, at least one individual who is allegedly an FBI informant might have been in communication with, and was perhaps even conspiring with, at least one suspect whom ATF was monitoring."

Sources say the FBI is using the informants in a national security investigation. The men were allegedly debriefed by the FBI at a safe house in New Mexico last year.

Sources say the informants previously worked for the DEA and U.S. Marshall's Office but their contracts were terminated because the men were "stone-cold killers." The FBI however stopped their scheduled deportation because their high ranks within the cartel were useful.

In their July letter, Issa and Grassley asked Mueller if any of those informants were ever deported by the DEA or any other law enforcement entity and how they were repatriated.

Asked about the content of the emails, a former federal prosecutor who viewed them expressed shock.

"I have never seen anything like this. I can see the FBI may have an informant involved but I can't see them tampering with evidence. If this is all accurate, I'm stunned," the former prosecutor said.

"This information confirms what our sources were saying all along -- that the FBI was covering up the true circumstances of the murder of Brian Terry," added Mike Vanderboegh, an authority on the Fast and Furious investigation who runs a whistleblower website called Sipsey Street.

"It also confirms that the FBI was at least as culpable, and perhaps more culpable, than the ATF in the (Fast and Furious) scandal, and that there was some guiding hand above both these agencies (and the other agencies involved) coordinating the larger operation," Vanderboegh said.

Asked about the new evidence, Terry family attorney Pat McGroder said, "The family wants answers. They'd like to put this to rest and put closure to exactly what happened to Brian."

Subject: RE: BS: Operation Fast and Furious
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Jun 12 - 06:18 PM

Greg, Reagan is in a murky area of what he knew in totality about Iran-Contra...However, George Bush Sr. was the guy who's operation is was...FOR SURE!!
That being said, you'd think that one of these bright bulbs would have caught a flash, and been taught something about this...but NOOOO! They just thought they could find new ways to cover it up. ..and the bigger issue, which may(?) come out, is the actual motive behind it. At present, I'm sure only the 'cover stories' are being circulated. If you knew the real story, you'd probably dump in your drawers...and if I told you, you'd never believe(or admit) it, that it was true.
Remember, I just keep getting accused of being a troll...no matter how many times I've been proven to be right. It's just been the braking through certain thick skulls, that gets me accused of it...and the whiners all cheer on, in harmonious discord..or is that the other way around....
Oh well, so much for another discounted 'promise' of 'transparency'!!!
Think they'll believe it, yet??
'Snap now, and avoid the rush' i keep saying...

Just waitin' for the 'news'...(but not for me).

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Operation Fast and Furious
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Jun 12 - 05:35 PM

Weeel, Ronnie Reagan didn't know nothin' about Iran Contra. Of course, he was incapacitated by senility.....

Subject: RE: BS: Operation Fast and Furious
From: pdq
Date: 20 Jun 12 - 05:07 PM

Since Executive Privilege extends to things that the Executive Branch (Obama) did, he must have done something concerning Fast and Furious or this claim would not apply.

Obama said earlier that F & F did not happen and that, if it did happen, he did not even know about it.

Ya can't have things both (er, all) ways at the same time.

Subject: RE: BS: Operation Fast and Furious
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Jun 12 - 04:54 PM

Well, here we are again!....This time the shit is hitting the fan.
Holder gets Obama to extend 'Executive Privilege' over the issue. Executive Privilege is only applicable to decisions the President makes either alone or with another...but he, the president must be involved with the decision..to invoke Executive Privilege...problem his, both Holder and the President, prior, both made statements saying Obama knew NOTHING about it..and holder said he didn't know about it, till later on(He testified that to the committee, and already has been found out to have lied)..SO, now this has taken on a whole other level of problems to have to deal with...which, could end up with impeachment..which I don't favor for a couple of reasons, but it certainly reaches the criteria, or Obama's re-election is toast...then he can pardon all his lackeys and operatives on the way out.
It's more than the Watergate issue, because we have two dead border agents, and more than a 'cover-up' because now the E.P. has been invoked, that means the President will be called for an explanation..and therefore has to cop to the lying(anyone surprised, YET?)
Like I said, not long ago, he could have turned a LOT around, if only he would level with the American people, not only on this, but other issues.....and by golly, they'll be lining up to gang-bang him on this one..Tea Party, Libertarians, Republicans, elements of the disenfranchised 'left', Independents ..well hell, almost everybody but Bobert, and maybe Don...but Don, at least has expressed some disappointment in Barrack Hussein Milhouse Nixon Obama.

To 'turn this around' will be a monumental effort of spin!
...and Bobert, I remember in one of your posts, that you though that me, bringing this (Fast and Furious)up, was just Obama hating, I believe you said, and not really a big issue....Well, I do NOT hate Obama, but this is only get bigger and nastier...and possibly lead to a Constitutional/Governmental crisis.
'Yes We Can'??? 'Change You Can Believe In'?

That's OK...Keep the change!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Operation Fast and Furious
From: Songwronger
Date: 14 May 12 - 07:15 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-6IAOBhlU4

A video clip of Holder saying in 1995 that people needed to be "brainwashed" on guns. That would be fine if he believed that guns needed to be removed from society at all costs, but then HE ran guns into Mexico in order to demonize them.

Subject: RE: BS: Operation Fast and Furious
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Jan 12 - 11:53 AM

Raparree: "I am not armed to the teeth. I do know how to use weapons."

My choice of weapons are a ballpoint sword, and my axes...and like you, 'I do know how to use weapons.'!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Operation Fast and Furious
From: GUEST,999
Date: 27 Jan 12 - 10:31 AM

"The excesses of the pharmaceutical industry are perhaps the clearest example of the folly of allowing health care expenditures and policies to be driven by largely unregulated market forces and the profit-making imperatives of investor-owned businesses."

From: Excess in the pharmaceutical industry by Marcia Angell.


There's the real 'war on drugs' is located.

Subject: RE: BS: Operation Fast and Furious
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Jan 12 - 10:07 AM

Everyone works outside of the C of C when it's necessary to get something done. To do otherwise is to accomplish nothing due to a lack of guts. And if it works, you're praised to the heavens. God help you if it fails. Bad ideas, bad planning, bad execution will fail.

I am not armed to the teeth. I do know how to use weapons.

Bye!

Subject: RE: BS: Operation Fast and Furious
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Jan 12 - 02:52 AM

Whether he is armed to the teeth, or not, and knows how to use his weapons, is not the issue. He, as a vet, would KNOW about the chain of command, and know what I said is applicable.

BTW, Thank you for your service.

I don't discuss mine....nor, would I have acted OUTSIDE the chain of command...agreed?

Holder's operation, in itself, was outside the chain of command, of our laws. To argue, why it's OK for him, and/or this administration, as to the other party's, based solely on political leanings, is hypocritical, if the same rule is to be applied to an administration's party you don't like.

BTW, I wasn't calling YOU a hypocrite...just pointing out that the same rule of law...and fairness and decency must apply the same way to ALL sides!

Holder or Bush, in my estimation, are, and should be accountable, for breaking the law....and for them to be masquerading, to be fighting the 'drug war' is ludicrous!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Operation Fast and Furious
From: GUEST,999
Date: 27 Jan 12 - 02:09 AM

"But he can still be cited for contempt of congress and tried for perjury. Then maybe he'll spill the beans."


It'll never happen. Congress starts doing that and it'll wind up citing a majority of its membership. Nothing like an operation gone wrong. When the music stops, someone will be awarded the tamale, and folks ain't tripping over each other to accept their fair share of the credit and thus enter the big draw!

Subject: RE: BS: Operation Fast and Furious
From: Songwronger
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 10:07 PM

Holder is trying to deny knowledge before a certain time. There's a reason for that.

He's supposed to issue daily briefings to the president. If he admits knowledge of the operation from way back in 2009, then chances are he would have briefed Obama. Which puts the big cheese on the spot. What Holder's trying to do is say that HE didn't know, therefore, the PRESIDENT couldn't have known.

Holder's not 1/10th as shrewd as Rice. He just bumbled big time. He should have laid everthing out instead of lying to congress. I expect Obama will force him to resign, to ward off impeachment proceedings. But he can still be cited for contempt of congress and tried for perjury. Then maybe he'll spill the beans.

Subject: RE: BS: Operation Fast and Furious
From: pdq
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 08:07 PM

"...puts me in mind of Condi Rice producing daily briefings she sent to George W. Bush about the possibility of planes flying into the WTC buildings. Bush had been saying he never imagined such a scenario, and then Rice covered her ass by showing the memos from weeks before the event."

Fine, but in that situation we are talking about a possibility of an event occurring. Also, bringing down the buildings was not an act that the US government had control over.

With Fast and Furious, we are talking about events that had already occurred, were well-understood, and were under the control (=direction) of a branch of our federal government.

Subject: RE: BS: Operation Fast and Furious
From: Songwronger
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 07:31 PM

You can do a Yahoo search of "Holder perjury" and turn up lots of stories, most probably reprints, but the below is from one:

WASHINGTON - New documents obtained by CBS News show Attorney General Eric Holder was sent briefings on the controversial Fast and Furious operation as far back as July 2010. That directly contradicts his statement to Congress.

On May 3, 2011, Holder told a Judiciary Committee hearing, "I'm not sure of the exact date, but I probably heard about Fast and Furious for the first time over the last few weeks."

So, Holder lied. Why? He could be afraid of the Mexican drug cartels, but that's not likely. More likely, if he admits knowledge, then his boss (Obama) SHOULD have been informed. The situation puts me in mind of Condi Rice producing daily briefings she sent to George W. Bush about the possibility of planes flying into the WTC buildings. Bush had been saying he never imagined such a scenario, and then Rice covered her ass by showing the memos from weeks before the event. If Holder knew, then he passed the information on up the line, but he didn't do what Rice did. Instead, he chose to lie and then tell people to shut up because he's a black man. Texas Representative Lamar Smith is not an S.O.B. you want on your back, though, so we'll see what happens there.

A detailed timeline is here, but it begins in September 2009, half a year after Holder bragged in Cuernevaca that he was going to throw other people's money at the drug situation.

In fairness, the other side (for those of you who think the Republicans are the opposite of the Democrats) also had dealings with the drug cartels. Bush and Obama both should be subpoenaed to testify in front of Issa's committee. I'll dig around for the Bush stuff later.

I dibs the BAR.

Subject: RE: BS: Operation Fast and Furious
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 04:47 PM

GfS, for all his thinking and concern, is a 'flinger'. He gets an idea and tosses out opinions and accusations in support of it with little regard for accuracy and investigation of the truth.

I too have met Rap... and though he brandished none of the weapons mentioned, I can testify he is a menace with a foam sword!

Subject: RE: BS: Operation Fast and Furious
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 03:31 PM

And you really and truly want me to continue to be civil.

Subject: RE: BS: Operation Fast and Furious
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 03:19 PM

"You obviously have never been in the service, or in ANY chain of command!"

Way wrong, GfS. Rap's for real about his service and although at times crazy as all get out on the threads, he's honourable, trustworthy and a good friend. Met him once in person and he's a great guy.

Subject: RE: BS: Operation Fast and Furious
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 02:28 PM

"When something goes wrong, the guy at the top is ultimately responsible!.."

That is a vaguely true technical point...it is NOT an excuse to blame every screw-up directly ON the "guy at the top". YOU would make the same point if someone YOU approved of were castigated for some stupid interpretation of plan by a zealous underling!

When, like Nixon & Watergate, it is proven that he knew and approved the basic events, it is then time to remove him.
You may 'think' Holder should have followed every action of every field office on a daily basis, but it just don't work that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Operation Fast and Furious
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 10:28 AM

GfS, I have a 30% service-connected disability from the VA and more on appeal. I carry a permanent MOS of 11B40 (Light Weapons Infantryman), a rank of sergeant, and worked directly for the Assistant Division Commander of the 7th Infantry Division at the DMZ in the Republic of Korea while the DMZ War was going on. I have the NDSM, AFEM, KDSM, ISDR, and KPUC with Expert badges in Rifle, Automatic Rifle, and Carbine. In addition I am qualified on the US pistol, .45 caliber, M1911A1; the US Rifle, Caliber .30, M-1; the US machine gun, caliber 7.62 mm, M-60; the US Grenade Launcher, 40 mm, M-79; and the US Machine Gun, .50 caliber, M-2. I am also familiar withe BAR, the 60 and 81 mm mortars, the .38 revolver, the 3.5 inch rocket launcher, the LAW, and the M1919A6 .30 caliber machine gun.

Following military service I worked 40 years in local government.

I know whereof I speak. If you ever call me a hypocrite again I shall be forced to reply in a less than civil manner.

Subject: RE: BS: Operation Fast and Furious
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 02:24 AM

Rapparee: "The entire thing, both Wide Receiver and F&F, were stupid attempts made by people trying to make a name for themselves. Holder didn't even know about until it broke --"

That is absolute nonsense!! You obviously have never been in the service, or in ANY chain of command! When something goes wrong, the guy at the top is ultimately responsible!....AND there is plenty of evidence to show that he was 'informed', at least!....and that in itself, makes him incompetent!! ....just like V.P., George H. Bush, at the time wasn't responsible for Iran-Contra???????????????????? It was his operation!..but because a Democrat got caught, suddenly the rules change?? Pretty fucking hypocritical!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Operation Fast and Furious
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 Jan 12 - 01:53 AM

...but then, if everything is on the up and up, why plead the fifth??

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Operation Fast and Furious
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Jan 12 - 09:12 PM

Deciding not to testify under the Fifth Amendment merely means that the prosecutors have to work harder to prove the case -- if there is one.

Subject: RE: BS: Operation Fast and Furious
From: Songwronger
Date: 25 Jan 12 - 07:34 PM

In the early days of the Obama administration (March, 2009), Secretary of State Hillary Clinton began saying that 90% of the guns used in the Mexican drug trade come from the U.S. The figure was made up, by U.S. Senators Diane Feinstein and Dick Durbin.

Durbin said: "According to ATF [the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives], more than 90 percent of the guns seized after raids or shootings in Mexico have been traced right here to the United States of America." Feinstein added: "It is unacceptable to have 90 percent of the guns that are picked up in Mexico used to shoot judges, police officers, mayors, kidnap innocent people and do terrible things come from the United States, and I think we must put a stop to that."

The problem, however, is that when both NPR and Fox News–one liberal, one conservative–put that 90% figure to a fact-check, it came up sorely lacking. The actual number was closer to 17% at the most, according to Fox. And even NPR, after a contentious interview with an Obama Administration official, totally debunked the 90% claim, although they could not determine the exact number....

Obama then began using the 90% figure in his speeches. Obama and Clinton went on a campaign against private gun ownership and gun shows and the like.

Then, the next month (April, 2009), U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder made a speech in Cuernevaca, Mexico, and he said:

"Last week, our administration launched a major new effort to break the backs of the cartels. My department is committing 100 new ATF personnel to the Southwest border in the next 100 days to supplement our ongoing Project Gunrunner, DEA is adding 16 new positions on the border, as well as mobile enforcement teams, and the FBI is creating a new intelligence group focusing on kidnapping and extortion."

A couple of years later, in May of 2011, when Holder appeared before a committee investigating alleged gunrunning into Mexico by the U.S. government, Holder said he had only learned about Project Gunrunner "over the last few weeks."

The problem with the above statement is that Holder's supposed to be the big brain in the U.S. justice system (our Attorney General), yet he got caught in a bald-faced lie. So why did he lie? Why was he so freakin' terrified that he would lie like that?

And then, when the press began to turn up the heat, he fell back on the "you're picking on me because I'm a black man" cliche. Same ol same ol. Scream racism and the press will crap its pants.

Look at the cast of characters mentioned in the above: Feinstein, Durbin, Clinton, Holder, Obama. As nasty a crew of gangsters as you could assemble. Professional liars. And they're lying not just to protect themselves (Democrats), but Republicans under George W. Bush. Bush's crew cut deals with the leaders of drug cartels to provide protection and freedom from prosecution.

At any rate, that sets the table. I guess now I'll look into Representative Issa's timeline. His investigation has turned up a lot of smelly stuff, but I just haven't been charting it. And now we have people refusing to testify under the Fifth Amendment, so things are heating up.

Subject: RE: BS: Operation Fast and Furious
From: GUEST,Mrr at work
Date: 25 Jan 12 - 05:05 PM

This whole thing was one of the stupidest snafus I've ever heard of. I mean, really, gps batteries?

Subject: RE: BS: Operation Fast and Furious
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Jan 12 - 04:31 PM

The entire thing, both Wide Receiver and F&F, were stupid attempts made by people trying to make a name for themselves. Holder didn't even know about until it broke -- if anyone thinks that the Man At The Top knows everything that goes on I suggest that they have no experience of either business or government.

Subject: RE: BS: Operation Fast and Furious
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 25 Jan 12 - 03:01 PM

As far as "getting facts on the table" is concerned--

Don't waste words trying to do what Wikipedia has already done:

Operation Fast and Furious.

Of course, if you think Wikipedia is wrong or incomplete, you're free to say so.

On the whole, I think Wikipedia does a pretty good job of laying out the relevant facts in an unbiased way—better than anything you're likely to see at Mudcat anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Operation Fast and Furious
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Jan 12 - 02:33 PM

Dear Songwronger: You are SO clever at finding words which seem to make Holder out as "race tosser"

I see YOU don't bother to give a source, but one is easy enough to find.

For example, The Washington Post

It seems Holder was explaining that his critics were identifying him (Holder) with Obama and 'getting at' Obama thru his race.
(for those who don't click on links, here is the quote **in context**)

"But Mr. Holder contended that many of his other critics — not only elected Republicans but also a broader universe of conservative commentators and bloggers — were instead playing "Washington gotcha" games, portraying them as frequently "conflating things, conveniently leaving some stuff out, construing things to make it seem not quite what it was" to paint him and other department figures in the worst possible light.

Of that group of critics, Mr. Holder said he believed that a few — the "more extreme segment" — were motivated by animus against Mr. Obama and that he served as a stand-in for him. "This is a way to get at the president because of the way I can be identified with him," he said, "both due to the nature of our relationship and, you know, the fact that we're both African-American."

Mr. Holder, however, attributed most of the hostility to underlying ideological differences. "I think that people, despite my law enforcement background, view me as taking these consistently progressive stands, and I think that, philosophically, there is a desire to get at that person," he said. "But I think the stands I have taken are totally consistent with a person who is looking at things realistically, factually."


note that further down in the article, it notes that "Mr. Holder has denounced the tactics used in the operation, known as "gunwalking," but said he did not know about them or sanction their use."

As I said, you cannot... reasonably... say that Holder approved and/or planned that operation any more than you can say that **Obama** 'killed thousands of civilians with drones'. You can say what you wish about 'ultimate responsibility of the-man-in-charge', but when you take those verbal shortcuts and insinuate that Holder OR Obama thought 'it was a good idea' to do what you accuse them of, you are simply spouting propaganda because, for whatever reason, you don't LIKE them or their administration or their policies. We can disagree about basic policy or methodology, but nasty partisan crap that uses out-of-context remarks to sling mud is..... well... either careless or just plain deceitful.

(I AM curious just where YOU got your version of that quote.)

Subject: RE: BS: Operation Fast and Furious
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Jan 12 - 11:18 AM

Fast and furious is this administration's continuation of Iran-Contra.
Remember when Hassenfus's C5A going down??

Drugs and guns!.......and you thought it was over???
Saps!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Operation Fast and Furious
From: Songwronger
Date: 24 Jan 12 - 10:49 PM

I'm still preparing the appetizers and you're already belching. Slow down. Have a sip of wine. Lots of tales to tell. But first, out of the mouth of Eric Holder, again, "This is a way to get at the president because of the way I can be identified with him. Both due to the nature of our relationship and, you know, the fact that we're both African-American." Seems that Holder's the race tosser. More later.

Subject: RE: BS: Operation Fast and Furious
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Jan 12 - 10:37 PM

**Holder** did no such thing... and YOU are tossing race into it.

I hardly think the Washington Times spin on the issue will clarify much.

It was a stupid operation, but you simply cannot lay the blame on Holder.

Subject: RE: BS: Operation Fast and Furious
From: Songwronger
Date: 24 Jan 12 - 10:32 PM

Oh, I'll get the facts on the table. But why rush straightaway to the dessert? We'll make a meal of it.

Holder got caught feeding guns to the Mexican border war. But when I bring it up, well, you know, it's because he's African-American. lol That's the BIG fact on the table. Play the race card at any and every opportunity. I guess that's the centerpiece. Ain't it purty?

Subject: RE: BS: Operation Fast and Furious
From: Songwronger
Date: 24 Jan 12 - 10:27 PM

This crap began a year ago. But the latest is this:

The chief of the criminal division in the U.S. Attorney's Office in Arizona has cited his Fifth Amendment rights against self-incrimination in refusing on Friday to testify before the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee in its ongoing investigation into the failed "Fast and Furious" gunrunning operation.

Rep. Darrell Issa, California Republican and committee chairman, said the prosecutor, Patrick J. Cunningham, had been subpoenaed by the committee to testify on Tuesday but his attorney notified the panel that Mr. Cunningham intended to exercise his right not to incriminate himself at his scheduled deposition.

"This is the first time anyone has asserted their Fifth Amendment right in this investigation and heightens concerns that the Justice Department's motivation for refusing to hand over subpoenaed materials is a desire to shield responsible officials from criminal charges and other embarrassment," he (Issa) said.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/jan/20/federal-prosecutor-cites-fifth-fast-furious-probe/

Subject: RE: BS: Operation Fast and Furious
From: Amos
Date: 24 Jan 12 - 10:25 PM

Let's get some facts on the table, okay?

Otherwise you're making Holder's case for him with windy generalities.


A

Subject: BS: Operation Fast and Furious
From: Songwronger
Date: 24 Jan 12 - 10:17 PM

Been meaning to start a thread on this for a while but don't know where to begin. What a cluster fork.

Obama's Attorney General Holder, allegations of gun running into Mexico. I listed specifics on another thread. I'll find those and post them here, if needed.

But none of that matters, because it's all about skin color. Holder said people were making a big deal of Fast & Furious because, "This is a way to get at the president because of the way I can be identified with him. Both due to the nature of our relationship and, you know, the fact that we're both African-American."

Holder ships guns into Mexico, the guns kill Americans, and people make a big deal of it because he's black.