BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Mar 12 - 06:05 PM

I'd have thought that young male drivers under 25 were rather good at sex. Well, I was, anyway. It's been downhill ever since - downhill at 85mph, naturally, and just two feet from the car in front, only one hand on the wheel as the other was giving the finger to the caravanner in the middle lane...

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Mar 12 - 12:32 PM

here are my opinions;as stated in this thread
speed and tailgating, driving too close, are the cause of many accidents on motorways.
speeding and tailgating are not exclusive to drivers who have just passed their test.
insurance companies base their premiums on size of engine and age and sex of insurers, young male drivers under 25 are penalised[regardless of driving experience.
What is mad about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Silas
Date: 03 Mar 12 - 08:39 AM

"Steve, your humour is in my opinion not very funny"

Oh go on then.... tell us a joke so we can judge the merits of your humour.

BTW, do you really think after your mad posts on this thread that anyone is actually interested in your opinion?

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Mar 12 - 08:22 AM

Steve, your humour is in my opinion not very funny

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 08:34 PM

Raise your sights, Dick.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 04:53 PM

Toilet Humour.
I suppose its better than racist humour, or jokes about paedophiles?

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Bernard
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 04:42 PM

Lindisfarne?

Bog in the van is all mine, all mine,
Bog in the van is all mine!

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 10:21 AM

"The Bog in the Van" - sounds like a damn fine Irish tune! How does it go? (Or should I say how do YOU go?)

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Silas
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 10:11 AM

Well, actually, the bog in the van is probably better than the one in the house - electric flush, perfumed and sanitised after-flush, it just lacks that certain something - i was thinking of installing a musical lavatory seat.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 10:06 AM

Inside toilet eh?


"I'm just nipping into t' van to make cup o'char, dear."


"Oo, er, I'd give it 20 minutes if I were you, luv..."

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 10:04 AM

Well let's not get bogged down with that. I was just wondering why Richard is so bitter. Perhaps he turned his uninsured caravan over one day and a bunch of caravan-haters gathered round to applaud. Something like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Silas
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 09:52 AM

My outside toilet has an inside toilet.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 09:46 AM

Just stop being such a dumbo, Richard. A long time before that quote, which I am more than happy to leave not unsaid, I typed Dammit all, these eejits don't even have to insure the bloody things if they don't want to! Now why would I say that if I wanted to imply that caravans without insurance were illegal and that we were all at risk of being mown down without compensation (none of which I even alluded to, let alone actually mentioned!!)? And why on earth would I want to imply that, knowing it was false, in a thread full of angry caravanners who would shoot me down for saying it as soon as look at me!! You're up shit creek sans paddle here, Richard! Your own obvious intent is to flog this already-dead horse to pulp, and you're making a complete ass of yourself to boot. I know what I said, I know what I meant, you know what I meant but you are pathetically trying to add a layer of meaning that clearly isn't there. You're presumably just feeling guilty about that outside toilet on wheels of yours!

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 09:26 AM

http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-aun1.htm

You said "Taking a caravan (untaxed and often uninsured, and definitely gas-guzzling)".

Your obvious attempt at meaning was to imply that others were put at risk by the absence of insurance. It's an obvious attempt to conflate "uninsured caravan" with "uninsured driver".

You can't un-say it Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 05:04 AM

You don't know what "Aunt Sally" means. Richard. Look that one up. If you can find where I even mentioned being run over by a caravan, let alone moaned about prospective lack of compensation, let's have it! And try to remember that repeating a false assertion over and over again will not make it true! You didn't look far enough up the thread to see where I made it clear that I acknowledged that caravans don't have to be insured. Inconvenient that it doesn't fit your apparent demonising agenda! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 11:14 PM

"I have never set out to give the impression that uninsured caravans are illegal. "

That's a silly Aunt Sally, Steve.

You set out falsely to give the impression that if and when you were run over by a caravan you would be bereft of compensation.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 08:51 PM

Holidays? You said you were out with it 20 times a year if I remember rightly. We can hardly afford holidays ourselves these days (though I do live in Cornwall, so I won't push that one). Incidentally, I haven't demanded anything of the sort. I'm on this thread to have a good moan about those ugly, sluggish, environmentally-unfriendly caravans bunging up the roads every summer, but I wouldn't dream of "demanding" that your freedoms be curtailed. Do enjoy your decent life squatting around in soggy fields full of fellow-luggers. I'm sure you all have lots to talk about, one-upmanship about the size of your sinks, etc.


What happened to this, by the way? Enough! I'm done with you so kindly go screw yourself. [Don, a few short days ago] Am I so irresistible?

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 08:31 PM

""Cherry-picking someone's posts in order to demonise them is a rather nasty trait, Richard.""

Maybe, but nowhere near as nasty as denigrating somebody because their income won't run to hotel rooms or even boarding houses, meaning no caravan = no holidays.

Doubtless you are alright Jack, so it's OK in your book to demand that we stay out of your way.

Well dream on pal, it ain't going to happen.

I have the same rights to a decent life that you have, having paid my dues with fifty years continuous employment.

Learn to live with it.

Don T.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 07:44 PM

"Taking a caravan (untaxed and often uninsured, and definitely gas-guzzling)"

That's the quote, Steve.

Nothing about "separate" insurance. Even if there was, so what? You set out falsely to give the impression that when you were run over by a caravan you would be bereft of compensation.

What rubbish, Richard. I have never set out to give the impression that uninsured caravans are illegal. Read up the thread, way before I posted the bit you quote, where I said: Dammit all, these eejits don't even have to insure the bloody things if they don't want to! which clearly demonstrates that I know that insurance for caravans is optional and separate from the mandatory insuring of cars, and it demonstrates that I've never tried to to imply otherwise. Why would I be stupid enough to do that in a thread full of evangelical caravanners! Cherry-picking someone's posts in order to demonise them is a rather nasty trait, Richard.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 12:51 PM

bystander, you are missing my point, it is this, a driver can be young , but that does not mean he has only just passed his test, for example a young driver could have been driving four years aged 22, or six years aged 24,and be quite experienced, furthermore an older person let us say hypothetically 40 or 50 could have just passed their test.
do not confuse just passed the test with young age.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 12:30 PM

Silas, you are falling into Steve's trap - the replacement cost of the van is a matter for the owner - like comprehensive (so-called) car insurance. What almost all caravan towing people do have is insurance (for the towcar) that covers the liability to third parties should injury arise to third parties. That, naturally, is the only legitimate concern of a third party.

Incidentally, last time I checked, the cost of insuring against damage to your own caravan was mightily cheap - doubtless because caravans are not often in traffic accidents, although many more of the expensive ones are stolen even from secure storage facilities.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: GUEST,Bystander
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 12:25 PM

Here's a recent report about tailgating. Note the reference to younger drivers.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/uk/motorway-tailgating-on-the-rise-16124578.html

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Silas
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 10:22 AM

I think the fuel consumption thing is a bit of a red herring. I doubt ther will be a huge difference between a car towing a van at 50mph and an unladen car at 60 mph. Plus, in my case anyway, if we are towing the van, we are usually together, that is in one car wheras we would normally be driving two cars to different locations.

Insurance - well, as Richard says, almost everyone would insure their van simply because of its replacenment cost, but i accept that some people don't, much the same way as some drivers don't insure their cars.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 08:59 AM

"Taking a caravan (untaxed and often uninsured, and definitely gas-guzzling)"

That's the quote, Steve.

Nothing about "separate" insurance. Even if there was, so what? You set out falsely to give the impression that when you were run over by a caravan you would be bereft of compensation.

And if I had no caravan I'd still be running the same three Volvos. I only use extra fuel when I tug the van to festies - maybe a thousand miles out of the fifteen thousand total per year between them.

The reason that HGVs pay more road tax is (largely anyway) they cause more road damage due to high point loadings. Caravans, which are considerably lighter than cars (in almost every case) don't.

You are simply advertising your prejudice.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 08:24 AM

check mate.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 08:07 AM

Yeah, well, more powerful engines are usually in bigger and/or more expensive cars that cost a lot more to fix when damaged. There's nothing simple in this world, Dick. Except...

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 07:52 AM

no, its not based on driving experience , it is based on age and sex, insurance premiums are higher for under 25 male drivers regardless of whether they have just passed the test or been driving for six years, that is a fact.
next fact in Ireland, insurance premiums are higher for cars with larger engine size, regardless of whether the driver has been driving for 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 or six years or jut passed the test, small concessions as regards no claims are made to all drivers who have not had an accident for so many years,
Having an accident is not always reflective of a persons driving skill, but insurers work on the basis of making a profit so if they have to pay out, they penalise the customer unless he can categoricaaly prove it was the other drivers fault.
insurance companies clearly think that speed is a major cause of accidents , otherwise they would not be penalisingdrivers with powerful engines

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 06:11 AM

Not based on driving experience, eh, Dick? Try getting a 65% NCD if you only passed yer test yesterday! Insurance companies take all sorts of things into account (not just yer engine size). Gender, age, claims history, motoring convictions, make, model and age of car, whether you keep the thing in a garage, your mileage, who else you want driving, whether you live in inner Liverpool or Much Binding In The Marsh. What I said is true. A newly-qualified young driver could be paying two grand or more. For the same car, for me with me clean licence and full NCD, all other things equal, it's about £250, and my excess is a damn sight lower as well. Facts, Dick. Lose the emotion, old boy!

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 06:02 AM

Oops, sorry about all the bold there. It should have stopped after the word separate.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 06:00 AM

I know that you are legally covered for third parties by your car insurance. I said "no need for separate insurance for caravans," and many tuggers don't bother getting separate insurance for their caravans. If you know you're going to be tugging a van, you need a vehicle with balls, and that usually means a less all-round economical vehicle, n'est-ce pas? That you run all the year round? What about Don with his paltry 33 to the gallon on his 20 outings per annum! Bullshit, Richard. Caravan owners use fuel far more profligately that I ever would. I got shut of my old S-reg Fiesta because I couldn't afford to run a car that only did 37 to the gallon, and less on motorways! As for no road tax on caravans, that's just an outrage when you're taking up as much road space as an HGV. Keep yer heads down while you're still getting away with that one!

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 05:53 AM

yes what you say is inaccurate, insurance companies base their charges on age and sex[drivers under 25 and male are penalised] not driving experience.
in Ireland insurance is based on size of car engine, presumably this is on the basis that powerful engines have the capacity to go faster, so it seems insurance companies are charging customers extra for having a car that has more power and can go faster, it is not illogical to conclude from this that insurance companies consider fast speeds a cause of accidents .
steve stop wasting everyones time, with this nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 12:52 AM

Your statement, Steve, that caravans were uninsured was untrue. Save for the very few uninsured drivers (where the industry scheme usually kicks in), and the also few twerps who don't understand the rare limitation on cover for towing, if you are hit by a caravan on the road you are covered by the driver's insurance.

And since even keen caravanners cover only a tiny fraction of their annual mileage while towing, your argument about increased fuel consumption is an irrelevance.

Likewise your argument about road tax for caravans.

You really have no figleaf for your pathological obsession against anything that might trivially delay your poop-poop-progress.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 07:20 PM

Look into it more, Dick. Nothing I said about insurance was inaccurate. Sit back and try to be dispassionate, Dick, ol' bean.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 07:17 PM

Steve, INSURANCE COMPANIES charge on the basis of age, their charges are not based on driving abilty, they charge people up to the age of 25, higher premiums, so you can be driving six years if you passed your test when you were 18 and are 24, and pay the same as someone aged 24 who passed their test 2 days previously, your argument is nonsense, it has nothing to do with people who have just passed their test it is to do with age., admittedly people of all ages get no claim bonus based on not having an accident, but all young people pay high premiums regardless.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 05:52 PM

But it's true! No road tax for caravans! No need for separate insurance for caravans, and many owners just don't bother! Unless you have a miracle vehicle, your car uses far more gas pulling the damn thing than when it isn't pulling it! It's physics, man!! What exactly am I supposed to "get out of?"

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 05:12 PM

"Taking a caravan (untaxed and often uninsured, and definitely gas-guzzling)"

Get out of that Steve: You can't can you?

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 03:13 PM

So, Dick, how come those insurance companies charge newly-passed drivers (especially young 'uns, who constitute the majority of newly-passed drivers) upward of two grand for cover, whereas they only charge irresponsible, tailgating, road-raging, arrogant, BMW-hating, Volvo estate-hating, 4x4-hating, caravan-hating speed kings like me* about two hundred and fifty? Eh? Eh?? Might I suggest that they do it because of what they know "in their experience"?



*With my clean licence and full no claims bonus, of course... Gosh, how do I get away with it!

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 01:13 PM

just because a driver is experienced that does not mean he/she is a safe driver,sales reps may be experienced, that does not mean they do not take silly risks.you are quite right about generalising, that is why we must not generalise from one particular incident, which is what Bernrd Cromarty was doing.
the whole thread is a waste of time and merely shows how entrenched peoples opinions are, however execessive speed and tailgating and changing lanes without indicating and checking mirrors are all very dangerous habits that are not the sole prequisite of newly passed drivers on motorways.
in my experience it is not the newly passed drivers that cause most of the accidents on motorways, I can only talk from my own experience.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 12:13 PM

What about BMWs towing caravans... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Silas
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 11:29 AM

OK Don, here you go.


"However, that jacket hanging across a window and effectively tripling the rearward blind spot has been almost a trademark of the breed for over 40 years. It's done so that they meet prospective clients with their jacket in pristine, uncreased condition. Image is everything you know, even coming ahead of safety. There are of course other distinguishing marks such as the models of car they have gravitated to over the years."

I thing generalising about a particular trade or profession like this is a bit daft. I am sure there are reps that drive irresponsibly, but there will be plenty of people in other professions who do too. And not everyone driving a Vectra or Mondeo is a rep you know, some of my best friends drive these type of cars and they are not reps.


"The course would be with an ADI registered instructor who would have to sign off on a satisfactory result, and would include 2 hours motorway instruction, two hours night driving, and two hours on a skid pan learning proper car handling."

Well, totally impractical and unworkable. Not a bad idea in principle, but cannot possibly work

"the unchallenged champions of disgracefully bad driving are the sales reps who consider their work to be more important than the lives of those who share their driving environment."

Again – irrational prejudice against sales reps who, after all, are just doing their job and are amongst the most experienced of road users.

Now, if it were BMW drivers that you were having a pop at…..

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 11:10 AM

I thought so!

Just twelve posts to sort through, and it's not worth the effort. Oh well, it's your ball in your court and if you can't be arsed to run with it........

Fine by me, until you post proof your assertions are also worthless.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Silas
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 11:04 AM

Oh cone ON, be reasonable, I don'thave time to list 'em ALL! But most of your posts have a daft line or two in them if you have a look.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 10:52 AM

""Come off it Don, you ave said some pretty stupid things on this thread""

Put your money where you mouth is and point 'em out, along with your reasons for considering them stupid.

Otherwise butt out.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Silas
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 10:39 AM

Come off it Don, you ave said some pretty stupid things on this thread and if ou poke your head over the parapet, then you can expect people to shoot at it.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 10:22 AM

""Mad Driver, Dick and Don - are exactly the guys who now appear to be exhibiting a form of cyber-road rage! :-)""

The difference is, in case you need it explained, that we confine our irritation at the ignorant mumblings of an arrogant twerp to a time and a place when we are not behind the wheel of a potentially lethal weapon.

Hardly road rage then.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 08:42 AM

Yeah, ironic in a way that those who ostensibly advocate a calmer approach to driving - Mad Driver, Dick and Don - are exactly the guys who now appear to be exhibiting a form of cyber-road rage! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Bernard
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 06:54 AM

Dearie me! So many raw nerves!!

...and relax!

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 05:27 AM

It's amusing to read that, because I disapprove of caravans, I must be an impatient, arrogant, intolerant, tailgating, road-raging boy racer. Now I know how Richard Dawkins must feel. And nowhere have I suggested that you don't have the right to use the roads in any legal manner you see fit. I'm just moaning about your right, that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 08:32 PM

""The fact is, Don, whether we like it or not, the fast, the impatient, the arrogant and the tailgaters exist in large numbers and they are not going away any time soon.""

Quite true, and while every word you post indicates your assured place among their number, it ill behooves you to be dishing out lectures to others more sensible and tolerant than you are capable of being.

My caravan, for what it's worth, is stored off road as is Richard's and Brian's as far as I know. and by what God given right do you presume to tell any of us that we don't have the right to use the roads in any legal manner we see fit?

I have held a full motor cycle licence since 1959, a full car licence since 1961, and an Institute of Advanced Motoring Certification since 1965. I also held a full double decker Public Service Vehicle licence between 1976 and 1983 and a Dartford Hackney Carriage Licence between 1983 and 1992.

I have no convictions of any description during my driving career, and only two accidents (one when an uninsured driver ran into me as I stopped for traffic on a roundabout, and the other when I was parked in a marked parking bay). Come to think of it, either might have been you, or some other arrogant sod with an almighty ego and a sense of entitlement to match.

My mileage since my motorcyle test is well in excess of two million. Enough! I'm done with you so kindly go screw yourself.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Learner drivers allowed on UK motorways?
From: Penny S.
Date: 28 Feb 12 - 06:16 AM

And I should add, I have been using the mirror, and have usually thought the car concerned to be far enough behind, and aware enough to allow me out, which is what I would have done in the circumstances.