Sammy Bar.. Irish version.

Subject: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 07:04 PM

Found this version of Sammys Bar on Youtube tonight...was quite impressed. also 'Flip the Whale's version is good...... Sammys Bar. what do you think?

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: michaelr
Date: 24 Feb 12 - 07:10 PM

Forcibly Oirishised, I'd say... I much prefer Flippin' the Whale. Great little movie, too.

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 25 Feb 12 - 03:53 AM

Words butchered.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Feb 12 - 04:31 AM

Quite, good strong singer, but even with his powerful voice the vocals are drowned out b y the instruments on occassions.
Rosemary Twney should be notified, I bet Cyril never received royalties, furthermore putting an irish location in the song, tends to alter some of the meaning of the song,m and quite frankly is just a piece of fake leprechaun irish twaddle.
if they had got the words right and not indulged in irish fakery and mixed the instrumentals back, it would be a good version, the singer is a good singer and the they are good players

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Leadfingers
Date: 25 Feb 12 - 05:05 AM

Dick said it all ! Acceptable , IF Rosemary is getting Royalties !

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Reinhard
Date: 25 Feb 12 - 05:35 AM

Tara's CD "Rigs of the Time" with Sammy's Bar on it was published nearly 20 years ago in 1994 according to amazon.com. It is very likely that Rosemary knows of this recording and is getting royalties.

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Paul Burke
Date: 25 Feb 12 - 05:46 AM

That whistle's god-awful. On how many Irish strands will you see a dghajsa?

Nearly as good as Dorty oul' Toyn and the Shores of Erin.

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 25 Feb 12 - 07:43 AM

The Corries did it with ' The Grey Funnel Line ' they called it, ' The Grand Bonna Line ' god knows why.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: eddie1
Date: 25 Feb 12 - 09:48 AM

Way back when, I was given a cassette of Lonnie Donegan produced by an obscure Irish label and found this Sammy's Bar by Donegan

I let Cyril hear it on his next visit to Scotland and, although he loved the arrangement, he did ask Rosemary to follow up the question of royalties. Don't know if she struck lucky.

Eddie

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Arkie
Date: 25 Feb 12 - 10:36 AM

Anyone heard "Sammy's Bar Revisited", sung by Cyril, himself, on the album "Guide Cats for the Blind"?

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: GUEST,Gulliver
Date: 25 Feb 12 - 11:00 AM

For years I thought it went: "Haul away the dying soul" (and sang that!)

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Gurney
Date: 25 Feb 12 - 02:47 PM

Gulliver, some friends of mine thought that, in 'The Grey Funnel Line,' it was strange that Cyril referred to the Geordie coalmine Walker Shore, but recorded that in the interests of probity.

You really have to research some of his songs. He used naval parlance so extensively.
I asked him. It is walk-ashore, the gang-plank.

There was even an assertion that the pit was walk-ashore on an earlier thread, for the same reason, as it was a drift-mine.

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: EBarnacle
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 09:44 AM

As the song is solidly tied to Malta's place names and equipment, it is not a zipper song. Changing the locale does not do it.

Howsomeever, there is a case of a multimillion dollar song, The Lion Sleeps Tonight, in which the "adapter" was able to uphold copyright over the real author of the song.

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Mr Happy
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 09:53 AM

So many 'versions' of lots music & songs.

They make an 'arrangement', change a word here & there, re-name then claim authorship = theft, plagiarism, spoiling etc

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: GUEST,Guest Luke McLean
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 01:47 AM

I see the tradition of cultural plagiarism is still thriving in Irish Republican ranks. First we have, "She is the belle of Dublin City"(should be Belfast). Then, Jimmy Babyface McLarnon was a Catholic(should be Methodist from Co. Down). Next. Roddy McCorley was a Catholic.(should be Presbyterian from Dunneane). After that, the song "Carricfergus" was about a town in Munster(Sorry,theres only one Carrickfergus in the whole of Ireland and thats in Co. Antrim). Now, we have reached the height of bad taste with the portrayal of the wonderful sea shanty, "Sammy's Bar" as some sort of Gaelic, Keltic, Irish classic. How pathetic! Everyone in folk music knows that this great song was written by the late Cyril Tawney, a Cornish seaman, in recent times! You Reps are really getting us non Rep Irishmen a bad name. Please quit. Whats next? "The Mingulay Boat Song" is really an old Irish tune that the Shannon fishermen used to sing while rowing around in their coracles!

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 03:18 AM

Re "Mingulay": here in the West of Ireland, I know of both an English language version called "Rolling Home to Oranmore " and an Iridh language love song "An Cailïn Álainn" using the air.

Regards

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 03:52 AM

CYRIL was from hampshire, however you make good points ,next we will havw willie free and easy, with all its connotations and how he picked up a dose of clap

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Thompson
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 04:34 AM

Carrickfergus was a town in Munster??????? What? When? Where? How?

Why all the spite in this thread? Have people got really terrible post-Christmas hangovers still in mid-January?

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 06:38 AM

"She is the belle of Dublin City"(should be Belfast)

No "should" about it. Virtually the same song has been found associated with just about every city in the British Isles. There's an Edinburgh version in Ritchie's collections from the 1950s. I doubt if anybody has the faintest idea where it started out, though we can probably rule out Cork and Peterborough because they don't fit metrically.

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Ernest
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 11:34 AM

What guest Luke McLean calls "cultural plagiarism" is what we usually call the folk process here.

I looked up the CD (rather a CD that combines 2 Tara vynil albums which is actually named "Sammy`s Bar") and Cyril Tawney is named as the author of the song. The places mentioned in the lyrics are "Quilltar" and "Quadar Quivar bay". The (German?) company might have spelled it wrong as there is another typo, but these names don`t sound irish to me. What exactly do you refer to, GSS?

On another occasion Marty Byrne told me about calling someone to ask permission to do one of his songs, so I assume that royalties were payed.

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 01:24 PM

INETUFFEYA BAY[ phonetic spelling for ghajn tuffheja bay, that is the words in Cyril Tawney songbook. Cyril was a good friend of mine Ernest, what exactly are you referring to Ernest?since i mentioned not sammys bar, but willie[sic] free and easy

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 02:19 PM

The cover says "Tara - Irish Music". This song isn't.

The title of the CD is "Rigs of the Time" - taken from an English song.

The uploader's caption says "wonderful Irish song".

The YouTube "genre" label says "Irish Folk Music".

If that's the "folk process", "folk process" is a new phrase for "thieving".

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Thompson
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 03:58 PM

Surely, though, Jack Campin, you're assuming a great mass of light-fingered Irish songsters, rather than a single person making a mistake?

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Thompson
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 04:02 PM

Incidentally, I'm reminded of my son, back on holidays from the Orient, showing me the Thai cowboy movie Tears of the Black Tiger (much recommended by the way), and remarking on the beautiful Thai folk song that was its main theme. "Surely you mean beautiful Irish folk song?" I objected, and he was most indignant.

The song was The Last Rose of Summer in a Thai incarnation.

Songs pass from country to country and from culture to culture, as do stories, turns of phrase, words and concepts. It's not thievery. They can't help doing it, it's their nature.

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 05:36 PM

In this case there was nothing unconsciously folkloric about it. Both Tawney's and Carthy's songs were written at a time when people registered information about authorship in easily accessible public resources. "Tara" will have learned them off commercial recordings. And there is no excuse whatever for a YouTube uploader, since using YouTube is using Google.

The group and their hangers-on like the uploader were using deliberate misrepresentation, concealing the origins of the songs. Probably because they had a racist anti-English ideology to promote.

It's quite likely that the Thai film score composer knew perfectly well where "The Last Rose of Summer" came from, too.

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: michaelr
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 07:48 PM

"Probably because they had a racist anti-English ideology to promote."

Bit of a stretch there, I'd say. What race would one be to be anti-English?

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 14 Jan 17 - 02:41 AM

In the case of ' The Rigs of the Times ' you will find that Martin Carthy designates it ' traditional, arranged Carthy '

Dave H

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jan 17 - 05:30 AM

its a sad fact that many 'races' are anti- English for good historical reasons and the continuing arrogance of many English people as demonstrated here

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 14 Jan 17 - 05:55 AM

that may be so, but you are the only one hiding your name.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jan 17 - 08:01 AM

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: michaelr - PM
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 07:48 PM

"Probably because they had a racist anti-English ideology to promote."

Bit of a stretch there, I'd say. What race would one be to be anti-English?
   French, THEY REFER TO THE ENGLISH AS ROSBIF

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 14 Jan 17 - 09:17 AM

Yeah but that's only cos the can't pronounce ' roast beef ' properly.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Leadfingers
Date: 14 Jan 17 - 09:39 AM

Deliberatly changing the composers words or music is NOT what I think of as 'the folk process' . If a song is set in a particular location , to change the location is not IMHO right .

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jan 17 - 09:49 AM

My identity has nothing to do with it. I am English but can recognize the way that my nation has antagonized the people of many small (and large) nations worldwide for centuries.
Many of the world's political problems have their roots in the actions of the English upper class over all that time.
Two of these are being discussed at this very moment! Northern Ireland and Cyprus are only two problems caused by English actions over the years- if the Irish pinch a few songs, it's minor by comparison- you don't need my name, the facts speak for themselves- over and out

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: michaelr
Date: 14 Jan 17 - 12:41 PM

GSS - the French are of the white "race" as well, if one chooses to use that outdated concept. And the band Tara don't sound French at all.

My point is that Jack Campin's statement about the band's supposed "racist anti-English ideology" is ludicrous nonsense.

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Thompson
Date: 14 Jan 17 - 01:26 PM

I'd imagine the "belle of Belfast city" migrating to Dublin was because the line was used in a skipping rhyme all over the country, though, and was presumably repurposed for locality everywhere.

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: JHW
Date: 14 Jan 17 - 05:12 PM

For years I thought it went: "Haul away the dying soul"

It's 'Haul away the Dyso'.
Last thing before going ashore the sailors would have a quick run round the ship with the vacuum.

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: GUEST,Erich
Date: 15 Jan 17 - 04:12 AM

To Reinhard & Ernest: The original LP (Eulenspiegel EULP 1006)is from the mid to late 70s (not dated, but there was a remake in 1979). According to the cover-text Sammys Bar was written by SYNIL Tawney. BTW on this LP, subtitled "Irish Music" you can also find the song "The Chemical Workers" which was written by Ron Angel from The Teesside Fettlers.

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Leadfingers
Date: 15 Jan 17 - 05:35 AM

If the record dates from the seventies , that waas the heightof 'The Troubles' when Irish Nationalism was quite rampant , with a fair degree of Anti English feeling.Didn't seem to stop them claiming a LOT of English Folk music as their own !

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Jan 17 - 05:48 AM

I'd imagine the "belle of Belfast city" migrating to Dublin was because the line was used in a skipping rhyme all over the country,

All over more than one country, and it could have come from any of them. I think the popular association with Belfast comes from some Irish revival band of the 60s (the Clancys?) who adopted that location for the version in their repertoire - it doesn't go back very far as a "standard". The Gorgie/Dalry kids around 1950 that Ritchie recorded had never heard of it that way.


Probably because they had a racist anti-English ideology to promote.
Bit of a stretch there, I'd say. What race would one be to be anti-English?

Canadian? German? English but with an Irish surname? Racism is about who you hate, not who you are.

You don't have to spend long around the diapora-Irish music scene to find the sort of attitude that wants to deny the English the ability to create anything at all. Which is why I have nothing to do with it any more, despite the fact that I love Irish music and have stronger family ties to it than most. The bigotry involved in it (as displayed by some posters in this thread) makes me sick.

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Snuffy
Date: 15 Jan 17 - 08:10 AM

In the early 1950s the girls where I lived (Stockport (was Cheshire, now Greater Manchester))used to sing "she is the girl of the golden city"

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Ernest
Date: 15 Jan 17 - 08:43 AM

GSS: I was referring to your posting of Febr 25th, 2012, 4:31 AM. Apparently I overlooked that you were writing about another song in your mail of Jan.13th, 2017.

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Ernest
Date: 15 Jan 17 - 09:00 AM

Erich: Thanks for the additional information, I knew that it it was published as an LP before but didn`t know the exact date. On the CD Ron Angel is given as the author of "Chemical Workers" as well as C. Tawney for "Sammy`s Bar". I guess the typo of his name was caused by the woman responsible for the lettering whose native language probably wasn`t english.

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: breezy
Date: 15 Jan 17 - 05:37 PM

Good to see we make a stand for Cyril, he had hollow legs didnt ya know.
Is Rosemary still around ? She had a video copy of his last appearance in St Albans around 18 months before he moved on.
His encore that evening was over 45 minutes long , ending at midnight then socialising in the bar till around 3;00 a.m.

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jan 17 - 05:59 PM

Rosemary has died.

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version/Schweik & Ryan
From: GUEST,Guest Luke McLean
Date: 16 Jan 17 - 12:05 AM

SCHWEIK > I am fully aware that Tawney was born in Hampshire. However, if you bother researching him you will see that he always describes his roots as being in Cornwall and Devon.

RYAN > Very nice to hear from you again Martin. Great to know that you are still alive and kicking(I hope) after all these years! I was walking around Carrickfergus the other day and I was thinking of you and the old Mudcat thread we had about Carrick. As I looked out across the lough to Ballygrot or as the locals call it, "Ballygrat". I was wondering if I could still find a boatman to row me over! Sorry, but couldnt help having a dig at one of my old chestnuts about plagiarism in folk music and other things, especially in Ireland. I understand all that stuff about music travelling and being modified blah, blah, etc. etc. but hey this really is taking the piss! First, the Rigs of Time, not only record an awful version of the song, but describe it as an Irish song. Then, Al O'Donnel, one of my favourite singers, starts trying to introduce Irish(I presume) place names instead of "Piata". Next, Johnny McAvoy refers to it as a favourite old Irish ballad on his double CD about traditional Irish songs. All very undignified and also very unfair to Cyril Tawney who IMHO has managed to write one of the best contemporary folk songs of all time! Here on the island of Ireland(ROI & NI) we have produced some of the finest folk music of all time. Surely we should not be reduced to trying to steal other people's songs!

Lovely to hear from you again Martin!

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 16 Jan 17 - 04:30 AM

GUESTLuke

Still alive and kicking alright...

Best wishes

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 16 Jan 17 - 06:52 AM

JHW . The Maltese spelling is Dghajsa and is pronounced Dei-sa. During the Second world war, the sailors and squaddies from Britain and US, in Malta, corrupted it to become Dhaiso... which is pronounced Dyso. Best wishes, Mike

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 16 Jan 17 - 08:55 AM

Dyson, Dyson... ;>)>


Regards

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jan 17 - 10:05 AM

I dont need to research Cyril ,he was personal friend of mine,based on personal conversation he told me his roots were hampshire and devon. goSport where he was born,his family were all in the royal navy, gosport and also plymouth devonport which is not in cornwall but devon. get your facts right and rember there are some of us still alive who were good friends with Cyril, we do not need to be told to research anything, because we knew him, cop on.
Ialso knew cyrils brother archie[ a lovely kind man], who often when singning his brothers songs used to introduce them by saying he was the only man who ever slept in the same bed as cyril

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: GUEST,Roy(Luke)McLean
Date: 16 Jan 17 - 11:04 PM

SCHWEIK> Cyril Tawney is widely regarded as being the leader of The South West(SW) folk music revival. He specialised in songs about the SW and the Royal Navy. Hampshire is not regarded as being part of the SW region, which is widely seen as comprising Cornwall, Devon and maybe Somerset . I can think of many "Tawney songs/recordings" which have a SW character. Off hand, I can not think of any with a "Hampshire flavour"!

I would refer you to Tawney's obituary in the Independent (available on the internet) which quotes him as follows: "Although I was born in Hampshire, I had already put down roots in the Devon and Cornwall area through my naval service, so I settled in Plymouth and got on with the business of learning as much as I could about West Country songs."

In the circumstances, I think its fair to say that, as regards geographical regions, his musical roots lay in the SW and that it was the SW which provided his initial musical inspiration, not Hampshire!

MARTIN RYAN > No sign of user name "MYSELF" from the old days?