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Subject: RE: Origins: First Time Ever I Saw Your Face From: Mo the caller Date: 14 Jun 14 - 09:42 AM In the Mudcat tradition of thread drift I read this thread title as Since First I Saw Your Face which Wiki says was written by Thomas Ford in 1607 Just thought you'd like to know that. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: First Time Ever I Saw Your Face From: GUEST,Musket Date: 15 Jun 14 - 03:31 AM At the risk of name dropping, McColl and Seeger gave me the full story when I interviewed them. I asked about the opportunity the royalties gave for them to further their trade without having to worry about putting meat on the table. That supplementary question says it all. If there were claims to the song they would have been made. The combination of chart topping hit in 1972 by Roberta Flack and covers by Frank Sinatra, Elvis Presley, Johnny Cash, London Symphony Orchestra, Stereophonics etc. The song netted them millions of pounds. Worth a legal punt if you had a claim? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: First Time Ever I Saw Your Face From: Jim Carroll Date: 15 Jun 14 - 04:11 AM One of the offshoots of the royalties was 'Blackthorne Records' which gave us (in my opinion) one of the best collections of ballads produced in the Revival (Blood and Roses). I don't know how much the song netted them; I do know they continued to live in their three bedroom maisonette in Beckenham and to fight for causes such as the miners - can't imagine they ever voted for Mrs T! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Origins: First Time Ever I Saw Your Face From: Musket Date: 15 Jun 14 - 07:08 AM Well as an ex miner, who was on strike, who popped a cheap bottle champagne when Thatcher died but sold my business for a fair few million, I'm not sure I understand the point Jim? McColl was typical rather than unique. I get slightly pissed off when people judge your values by your value as it were... |
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Subject: RE: Origins: First Time Ever I Saw Your Face From: Joe Offer Date: 15 Jun 14 - 07:28 AM I repeat: I'm getting a little confused here. Mayomick, for which song did MacColl "pinch the melody from the Jimmy Page version of Blackwaterside"? It's clear that MacColl "borrowed" from many sources for many of his songs, but isn't "The First Time" completely original? -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Origins: First Time Ever I Saw Your Face From: TheSnail Date: 15 Jun 14 - 08:12 AM Major thread drift but "Peggy sang it from a typed text that same evening" Well! |
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Subject: RE: Origins: First Time Ever I Saw Your Face From: GUEST,henryp Date: 15 Jun 14 - 08:30 AM The first time ever I sang you song... |
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Subject: RE: Origins: First Time Ever I Saw Your Face From: mayomick Date: 15 Jun 14 - 09:12 AM Apologies for slyness ,Joe .Yes, Ewan Mac wrote it . I've asked before on mudcat if people thought he may have got the tune from listening to Blackwaterside. Nobody expressed an opinion , so that was my way of raising the issue again. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: First Time Ever I Saw Your Face From: Jim Carroll Date: 15 Jun 14 - 10:49 AM "McColl was typical rather than unique" Typical of whom Muskie Don't know many people who fund-raised with benefit evenings and concerts, proselytized and wrote songs to the extent he and Peggy did. My point was that, however much they made from the song, it in no way changed their outlook on life. "Well!" Well what Bryan? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Origins: First Time Ever I Saw Your Face From: GUEST,henryp Date: 15 Jun 14 - 11:30 AM Well, Peggy could obviously type. Unless she had a secretary, or perhaps a telex link. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: First Time Ever I Saw Your Face From: TheSnail Date: 15 Jun 14 - 11:56 AM Jim Carroll Well what Bryan? There have been a number of threads raging against the use of word and/or tune sheets in folk clubs and sessions. I can't recall whether you've been invoved in any of them or not. It seems to be generally thought that you can't do justice to a song if you are reading the words especially if you announce "This is one I wrote this afternoon". It is interesting to discover that Peggy Seeger was not above that sort of thing. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: First Time Ever I Saw Your Face From: Jim Carroll Date: 15 Jun 14 - 12:25 PM "I can't recall whether you've been involved " I was involved and I am an opponent of the practice First Time Ever was written in 1961 or 1962 'when we were all young and foolish' - even Peggy!! It was made for a specific occasion, I've no idea whether itr was a public performance or a recording. I've always wondered whether she accompanied it, and if so, how, with a crib sheet in her hand. Of course the story might well have been one of Ewan's exxagerations - he certainly was not "above that sort of thing" - one of his more lovable features. I have never seen either of them sing from a crib-sheet in front of an audience, though I know they used them as an aid-memoir when recording for albums. The only other occasions I can recall were when the Singer's Club changed locations. In the very early days Ewan made a song entitled 'Song of the Travels' and made it a practice to add a verse when they moved to sing on the first night in the new premises - I think it ended up with around a dozen verses. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Origins: First Time Ever I Saw Your Face From: Mr Red Date: 15 Jun 14 - 05:05 PM FWIW Peggy Seeger at a Sidmouth concert (withing the last two years) introduced the song with a comment roughly to the effect "he said he wrote it during a telephone conversation, but I don't believe it" Sort of confirming the myth and de-bunking it at the same time. If anyone should know - it is her. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: First Time Ever I Saw Your Face From: TheSnail Date: 15 Jun 14 - 05:55 PM Jim Carroll I was involved and I am an opponent of the practice I'm not too keen on it myself but I think it is as well to bear in mind that there may well be extenuating circumstances whether it be being young and foolish or old and a little forgetful. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: First Time Ever I Saw Your Face From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Jun 14 - 03:15 AM "but I don't believe it" Wonder why, as she's always claimed the telephone conversation was to her, and has made the same claim herself when I've seen her perform the song It was her who included it in the notes to the song when she published his collection, "The Essential Ewan MacColl", several years after his death. This from his Wiki entry - not always reliable: "For example, he wrote "The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face" very quickly at the request of Peggy Seeger, who needed it for use in a play she was appearing in. He taught it to her by long-distance telephone, while she was on tour in the United States (from which MacColl had been barred because of his Communist past)." Who knows - she might reveal all in her autobiography! We are interviewing her in a couple of months time for a two programme radio programme on Ewan we are working on - we'll make a point of asking her. Been thinking about the origin of the tune, which I thought I had narrowed down to an Irish-language song air, which I know Seamus Ennis sang and played and I think Joe Heaney sang; both were friends and fellow performers of MacColl in the early days of 'Ballads and Blues' in London. On the other hand, he would usually take an existing air and sing it about the house until he had adapted it, often out of all recognition. A year or so before the song was made he was working on the Radio Ballads; the second on 'Song of a Road' included the McPeakes, and their 'Verdant Braes of Screen' would have fitted perfectly into his method of work. He was recording Sam Larner around that time, Sam's 'Baffled Knight' tune (Blow Away the Morning Dew), would have fitted equally well. "extenuating circumstances" Agreed - as long as it doesn't become common practice, which I got the impression it was. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Origins: First Time Ever I Saw Your Face From: Musket Date: 16 Jun 14 - 05:12 AM Jim. When I said he was typical, I meant in that becoming rich doesn't make you a Thatcher lover, as you inferred. He wasn't the only one who stuck to his principles. Most people do. A mate of mine won a tenner on a scratch card the other week. He still drives a shed masquerading as a Vauxhall Astra. Still sneaks off to the bog when it's his round for that matter. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: First Time Ever I Saw Your Face From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Jun 14 - 06:28 AM Fairy Nuff Muskie Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Origins: First Time Ever I Saw Your Face From: TheSnail Date: 16 Jun 14 - 07:42 AM Jim Carroll Agreed - as long as it doesn't become common practice, which I got the impression it was. Where did you get that impression Jim? Direct personal experience or reading it on Mudcat? It may depend on the example set by people's role models. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: First Time Ever I Saw Your Face From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Jun 14 - 08:34 AM Bit of both really Brian. The last three evenings have spent in London clubs have been pepped with 'readers' Mudcat and other discussions I have had and read seems to indicate it is certainly not uncommon, and contributors to this site have made it clear that they see no objection to it. It wasn't totally unknown before I left the UK in 1998. Because it doesn't happen at your club doesn't mean it doesn't happen. The 'role models' (what and whoever they are) that I know didn't do it. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Origins: First Time Ever I Saw Your Face From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Jun 14 - 08:46 AM Sorry - should read 'Bryan' Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Origins: First Time Ever I Saw Your Face From: TheSnail Date: 16 Jun 14 - 04:12 PM Jim Carroll contributors to this site have made it clear that they see no objection to it. Really? I thought the majority opinion was agin it. Because it doesn't happen at your club doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Just because it happens doesn't make it "common practice". What gives you the impression it was? The 'role models' (what and whoever they are) that I know didn't do it. Er? Peggy Seeger? |
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