Banks O The Bann/Lord Of All Hopefulness

Subject: Banks O The Bann/Lord Of All Hopefulness
From: BobKnight
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 11:02 AM

They share a tune in the version I've just been listening to by, The Voice Squad. Which came first - the traditional song, or the hymn??

Subject: RE: Banks O The Bann/Lord Of All Hopefulness
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 11:11 AM

LOAH, the tune I know, has an Irish tune which I have come across called "With My Love On The Road". Here ~

http://www.traditionalmusic.co.uk/irish-folk-music/014450.HTM

~M~

Subject: RE: Banks O The Bann/Lord Of All Hopefulness
From: GUEST,John Moulden
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 11:11 AM

The traditional song came first.

Subject: RE: Banks O The Bann/Lord Of All Hopefulness
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 11:17 AM

Hi, Bob. Before 'Lord of all Hopefulness' that tune (Slane) was used for a hymn called 'Be Thou my Vision.'


Here's what the Cyber Hymnal has to say:


Words: At­trib­ut­ed to Dal­lan For­gaill, 8th Cen­tu­ry (Rob tu mo bhoile, a Com­di cri­de); trans­lat­ed from an­cient Ir­ish to Eng­lish by Ma­ry E. Byrne in "Eriú," Jour­nal of the School of Ir­ish Learn­ing, 1905, and versed by El­ea­nor H. Hull, 1912, alt.

Music: Slane, of Ir­ish folk or­i­gin (MIDI, NWC, PDF). Slane Hill is about ten miles from Ta­ra in Coun­ty Meath. It was on Slane Hill around 433 AD that St. Pat­rick de­fied a roy­al edict by light­ing can­dles on East­er Eve. High King Lo­gaire of Ta­ra had de­creed that no one could light a fire be­fore Lo­gaire be­gan the pa­gan spring fes­ti­val by light­ing a fire on Ta­ra Hill. Lo­gaire was so im­pressed by Pat­rick's de­vo­tion that, de­spite his de­fi­ance (or per­haps be­cause of it­), he let him con­tin­ue his mis­sion­ary work. The rest is his­to­ry.
----------
So by 1905 the tune had been around long enough to be considered traditional. That's enough info for me.

Subject: RE: Banks O The Bann/Lord Of All Hopefulness
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 11:52 AM

Chapter and verse, so to speak!

Subject: RE: Banks O The Bann/Lord Of All Hopefulness
From: Marje
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 11:59 AM

My Scottish hymnal (1939) gives the same attribution as the above - it describes the tune (Slane) as an Irish Traditional Melody and says the words are "ancient Irish, trans. Mary Byrne, versified by Eleanor Hull."

What we don't really know - at least I don't - is whether those words (Be Thou My Vision) became linked with that tune only during the 20th century when the hymn books were compiled, or whether they'd been associated together for longer than that. As far as I know, lyrics of non-Biblical origin were not sung as hymns in church until about the 19th century, but I think the Irish Gaelic tradition may include songs of a meditative/religious nature that date back for many centuries.

And it seems likely that the Banks of the Bann words are probably no older than the hymn words, possibly a lot younger.

It's not such a simple question as it first appears, is it?

Marje

Subject: RE: Banks O The Bann/Lord Of All Hopefulness
From: doc.tom
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 12:30 PM

Somehow I seem to recalll that the ancient Irish tune, subsequently used as a hymn tune (for Be Thou My Vision and Lord of all Hopefulness) called Slane, was set to the song Banks of the Bann by Bert Lloyd. I'll check my notes, but in the meantime can anyone demonstrate otherwise?

Subject: RE: Banks O The Bann/Lord Of All Hopefulness
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 01:09 PM

···Another song with a similar tune is "With My Love in the Road."···

From the DT version of Banks Of The Bann ~~ see my post #2 above.

~M~

Subject: RE: Banks O The Bann/Lord Of All Hopefulness
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 01:10 PM

Hymns Ancient and Modern gave the tune as Irish Traditional.
Haven't got my "Best of A.L.Lloyd" with me at work Tom so I can't agree or disagree at present.
Nic Jones used the tune for his version of "Lakes of Shylin"

Subject: RE: Banks O The Bann/Lord Of All Hopefulness
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 07:57 PM

I'm no dot reader but the tune in Sam Henry's Songs of the People collected in 1925 looks about right to me. A version is also in Christy's Traditional Ballad Airs. I'll check it tomorrow and compare it with the Henry one.

Subject: RE: Banks O The Bann/Lord Of All Hopefulness
From: GUEST,Ebor_Fiddler
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 08:12 PM

Lord of All Hopefulness is modern (around the 1960's or so). As mentioned above, Be Thou My Vision IS old - a 7th or 8th Century Gaelic poem. Translated by Byrne and versified by Hull, the tune was only added afterwards - possibly for the "English Hymnal" collection which used a lot of traditional tunes, fashionable in the early 20th century when the intelligentsia were trying to bring about an English Revival.
Yes, I DO know that BOTB is Irish-collected and not English, but the posh people of aound a hundred yeasr or so ago weren't too certain - "traditional" was enough for them.

Subject: RE: Banks O The Bann/Lord Of All Hopefulness
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 08:22 PM

This was discussed fairly comprehensively in another thread. For the record, 'Be thou my vision' (10 10 10 10 Dact} and 'Lord of all hopefullness' (10 11 11 12) are slightly different. I believe I've already posted a fairly comprehensive extract from the 'Companion to Rejoice and Sing' which dates the association with BTMV to 1919 and LOAH to 1931.

Subject: RE: Banks O The Bann/Lord Of All Hopefulness
From: BobKnight
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 09:32 PM

Thanks everyone - I kinda thought the traditional tune came first. I couldn't see someone writing lyrics to an established hymn tune, but thought I'd ask.

This all started when I was offered some gigs in an Irish theme bar. While trawling for Irish songs I came across The Voice Squad singing the Banks Of The Bann. I thought their singing was marvellous and posted it on my Facebook page, where someone remarked that it was the same tune as Lord of All Hopefulness. Funnily enouugh, my wife had also come through when I was listening to it earlier and said, "Why are you listening to hymns?"

Thanks once again. :)

Subject: RE: Banks O The Bann/Lord Of All Hopefulness
From: MartinRyan
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 03:41 AM

BTW The Voice Squad have recently reformed (after a long hiatus) and are back singing together in public again!

Regards

Subject: RE: Banks O The Bann/Lord Of All Hopefulness
From: Marje
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 04:52 AM

Hey, that's good news about the Voice Squad! I love their singing and was lucky enough to hear them live and close up once or twice.

For what it's worth (Ebor Fiddler above) I have a copy of the 1905 English Hymnal and, like you, expected this hymn to be there, for the reasons you state. But it's not - unless it's under a completely different set of words - there is no tune index in my version. It is, however, in my mother's 1939 copy of the Scottish Hymnary (published 1928).

Marje

Subject: RE: Banks O The Bann/Lord Of All Hopefulness
From: Mr Happy
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 04:56 AM

The Voice Squad back? Excellent!

Subject: RE: Banks O The Bann/Lord Of All Hopefulness
From: Mr Happy
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 05:00 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bq01OuEGCfA

One've my favourite songs & I perform it frequently in our sessions

Subject: RE: Banks O The Bann/Lord Of All Hopefulness
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 10:44 AM

Thanks for the link. Excellent singing!

Subject: RE: Banks O The Bann/Lord Of All Hopefulness
From: GUEST,Ebor_Fiddler
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 11:17 AM

@Dave: Thanks - I'd always thought that LOAH was much newer than than, but this must have been because I only came across it in the 1960's!

Subject: RE: Banks O The Bann/Lord Of All Hopefulness
From: MartinRyan
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 12:03 PM

Wonderful singing, as ever, by The Voice Squad. Mind you, that video is a fair age - the voices are still holding up, whatever about the hair!

Regards

Subject: RE: Banks O The Bann/Lord Of All Hopefulness
From: Marje
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 01:36 PM

Oh, thank you for posting that video! It demonstrates what I loved about the Voice Squad: they can just sit in a bar and sing like that - no sound checks, no fuss, no apparent effort at all, the music just seeming to float from their throats in a totally natural way. But what a lovely interpretation of the song! The response in the pub is just some restrained applause, but I'm wiping away tears, even though I've heard their version of this song before.

Marje

Subject: RE: Banks O The Bann/Lord Of All Hopefulness
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 02:41 PM

From the Tara site;

Ireland's leading traditional acapella group The Voice Squad are set for a reunion concert in Dublin's National Concert Hall on St. Patrick's Day (Mar 17th) in the Ceili House Live concert as part of the St. Patrick's Festival. This long awaited reunion will be the group's first appearance together since they performed on stage for the opening ceremony of the Special Olympic World Games 2003.

Did anyone go?

Subject: RE: Banks O The Bann/Lord Of All Hopefulness
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 03:39 PM

Mar 16, 2012

Sidmouth Folk Week 3-10 August 2012 Breaking News - Ham Marquee
A double-header made in heaven – Dervish plus The Voice Squad – completes our evening concert line up at the Ham Marquee.

Subject: RE: Banks O The Bann/Lord Of All Hopefulness
From: mg
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 11:10 PM

Now I can't find it but in looking for the famine songs I came across something with this title or something similar..m ight have had different words. mg

Subject: RE: Banks O The Bann/Lord Of All Hopefulness
From: mg
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 12:03 AM

Actually it was bpratai dubh..King of Glory

Subject: RE: Banks O The Bann/Lord Of All Hopefulness
From: doc.tom
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 05:22 AM

Thread drift???

Subject: RE: Banks O The Bann/Lord Of All Hopefulness
From: MartinRyan
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 05:46 AM

Arran Banners?