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'Historical' Ballads
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Subject: 'Historical' Ballads From: Reiver 2 Date: 13 Oct 99 - 04:35 PM "Favorite Historicalstories" has been a fascinating thread! It's already quite long and this post is going to be very long, so I thought I'd start a new thread, although it's actually a continuation. I've seen mentioned so many historical ballads that I'm familiar with: Steeleye Span's Montrose, The Band Played Waltzing Matilda, Killiecrankie, The Massacre of Glencoe, Bonnie Dundee, Sink the Bismark, Woody Guthrie's Reuben James and Deportee (which some I think are referring to as the Plane Wreck at Los Gatos or 1913 Massacre) and Three Score and Ten. Incidently, I just came across an Irish song, My Lovely Rose of Clare, which has the same tune as Three Score and Ten (at least the melody that I learned -- from a Johnny McEvoy recording) -- does anyone know the history of this melody, beautiful and sometimes haunting? I think that some distinction needs to be made between "historical" ballads (some others that come to mind are Roddy McCorley, Derwentwater's Farewell, The Black Douglas, Bannockburn, Follow Me Up To Carlow, Johnny Cope)and just good songs that tell a story. The Irish Rover, for example, is certainly not historical and others like Whiskey In the Jar, Brennan on the Moor are of doubtful historicity, though all are great songs. A third type are those that are not historically specific, but relate to actual events, social conditions or people. (The Band Played Waltzing Matilda should probably go here along with Belfast Mill, Bonniewood Green, Come My Little Son, Fighting For Strangers, Freedom's Sword, Welcome Royal Charlie -- and many other "Bonnie Prince Charlie" songs like the Skye Boat Song -- Many Young Men of Twenty, The Rising of the Moon, and two of my absolute favorites The Old Man's Song and Yesterday's Men. Oh, and don't leave out The Great White Sheep an extraordinarily powerful song about the Highland Clearances.) Then there are many that refer to people that MAY have been real people in the situations related by the song or WERE actual people but where the situation related in the song may or may not be factual. I'm thinking here of Sir James the Rose, Geordie, Arthur McBride, The Flower of Northumberland, Dowie Dens of Yarrow, The Heidless Cross, Jock o' Hazeldean, Cape Ann, Slattery's Mounted Foot, Fenians of Cahirciveen, Johnson's Motor Car, Moses Ri-Too-Ra-Li-Ay, and another all-time favorite of mine, Willie McBride, plus more "Robin Hood" songs than can be mentioned. I've mentioned mainly Irish and Scottish ballads and won't try to list many Am. Civil War songs (The Cumberland and The Merrimac, The Alabama), or "disaster" songs like Casey Jones, Wreck of th Old 97, The Edmund Fitzgerald, Springhill Mine Disaster, or the Frank Slide (a landslide that wiped out a small Canadian town in the Crows Nest Pass area of the Rockies -- later a baby girl was found alive among the debris and since no one knew who she was, she was given the name of "Frankie Slide"). I think, without question, historical ballads or stories are my favorite genre of "folk" music. But I think it's risky to think, as someone observed, that one can "learn history" from the songs. May are truly "historical" in the best sense of the word, but many are not. This was brought home to me most vividly when my partner and I (as The Reivers) began singing The Haughs of Cromdale. We always tried to give a little background when we sang songs that referred to historical people or events. This one baffled us for some time until a lot of digging revealed that the "second" battle described in the song was actually a battle fought many years before and many miles away from the battle at Cromdale -- and that the hero of the battle in the song(Montrose) had been dead for 40 some years at the time referred to in the song! A great song, nevertheless -- but the story it tells can hardly be called "Historical." |
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Subject: RE: 'Historical' Ballads From: NSC Date: 14 Oct 99 - 10:04 AM hello Reiver 2. In the late sixties I used to frequent a folk club in Ponteland, Northumberland, where the resident group was called "The Reivers" They used to sing a shortened version of the Battle of Otterburn which certainly had its origins in fact. Douglas of Scotland and Percy of Newcastle both decided to hunt deer in the forestland surrounding Otterburn, on the same day. A huge battle ensued where some hundreds of men including both Douglas and Percy were slain. A full version of the song can be found in The Northumberland Minstrilsy, a book first published in the 19th century. The song is a version of the Chevy Chase. Historical ballads are wonderful though not always entirely accurate. They are better than history books in that they give an indication of how people were thinking. Sometimes how the ordinary person viewed an event rather than a government view. Some of the Napoleonic songs in Ireland are a fine example. George Henderson |
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Subject: RE: 'Historical' Ballads From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird) Date: 14 Oct 99 - 11:22 AM Another addition to the list, if you don't have it already, would be songs of the "Springfield Mountain"/"Pesky Sarpent" type. This crosses the line, though, from "historical" songs that can be linked to a known historical event, to "occasional" songs, narrating an occasion in the private life of someone who may or may not have existed. T. |
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Subject: RE: 'Historical' Ballads From: Marki Date: 14 Oct 99 - 02:24 PM With regards to Riever2 comments about learning history from songs being a questionable practice.... I must argue that. While I admit that most "historical" songs are not bang on, they do encourage most people to find out more about the subject. I know as a kid I listened religiously to Johnny Hortons "Sink the Bismarck". I swear that this is why I am totally fascinated by WWII stuff to this day. Also I find that if I hear a song that's about something like a historical battle, I research the topic to find out more. For example, my sister got me listening to Christy Moore and I really like his "The Knock Song". I swore to my sister that the song had to be about some event, and she said that it was just a nonsense type song. So I researched it and found out the background to it. Sure it's got the authors own opinions of things, but at least I now know why there's an airport up in Knock. Okay maybe this isn't the type of knowledge one needs to store up if they intend to become a rocket scientist, but boy can you kick some butt in Trival Pursuit or Jeopardy! I think it's a great thing to encourage our youth to listen to songs that tell stories so that they end up having a brain that works. Don't try to tell me that songs like "Barbie Girl" or anything by the Spice Girls encourages kids to ponder the mysteries of time! |
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Subject: RE: 'Historical' Ballads From: Susanne (skw) Date: 14 Oct 99 - 08:04 PM Marki, that's just what I was going to say! The content of a song is often just the trigger (although some of them are remarkably accurate). I learnt quite a lot about events in Britain in the years before World War I by following up the references in Bill Caddick's magnificent 'The Writing of Tipperary'. I had to trawl through half the volumes in the Encyclopaedia Britannica but it was worth it. It is as important to me as the songs themselves. (What I find I'm now trying to put on the Web. I've only got as far as D, but if anyone wants to have a look, go to http://mysongbook.de/index.html). - Susanne |
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Subject: RE: 'Historical' Ballads From: AKS Date: 15 Oct 99 - 05:37 AM Does the Scottish 'Lammas Tide' refer to the Battle of Otterburn that George H. mentions above? Both 'Doughty Douglas' (bound him ride into England to drive a prey) and 'Proud Percy' (and he spake high) are involved but nothing is said about Douglas being killed (at least in the version I know) there also. Arto Sallinen |
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Subject: RE: 'Historical' Ballads From: Ely Date: 15 Oct 99 - 12:08 PM Yall know a lot more about Irish and British Isles songs than I do: Does anyone know one called "John McLean's March"? The tune is very similar to "Scotland the Brave" but I can't make out the words. Also, does anyone know if there is/what is the story behind "the Burning of Achindoun"? I apologize ahead of time for butchering the spelling. |
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Subject: RE: 'Historical' Ballads From: Philippa Date: 15 Oct 99 - 06:03 PM Ely, THE JOHN MACLEAN MARCH is in the DT database |
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Subject: RE: 'Historical' Ballads From: Susanne (skw) Date: 15 Oct 99 - 06:34 PM The Lammas Tide, as sung by The Corries, is a shortened version of The Battle of Otterburn. If you can, get hold of Alex Campbell's version of the latter, but Tony Cuffe's will do nicely, too. The following is what I've got on 'Auchindoon', or 'Ferrickside' as it's called on a Tannahill Weavers album. [1880:] In the year following the burning of Castle Towie by the Gordons in 1571, recorded in Edom O'Gordon [= Adam Gordon, a brother of the Marquis of Huntly], Auchendown, a stronghold of the Gordons, was burnt down by the Clan Chattan, in revenge for the death of William Mackintosh. William, it is said, was killed at the castle of the Earl of Huntly in 1592. The ballad on the event is evidently a fragment, but there are one or two versions of it. [...] In this gay manner did the popular voice sing of the outrage. (Ord, Glasgow Weekly Herald, April 17)
[1984:] This ballad is based on a historical incident, but two different characters with the title-name [Willie Macintosh] are confounded in it. The possible incidents are dated 1592 and 1550. The terrain is Banffshire, near Dufftown. [...] The words are very similar to Child B, but the last verse has been changed now to a final taunt, addressed presumably by Willie Macintosh to Huntly's clan, in the continuing feud which was started by the murder of the "Bonny Earl of Murray". The meaning of this taunt is not obscured by the slight variations [...] "Ye('ve) brunt yer crops" (meaning "You've brought this on yourself") [...], "I('ve) brunt/burnt ..." [...] "They burnt ...". (Munro, Revival 278ff)
[1986:] [Fiddich-side] James Stewart, son of Sir James Stewart of Doune, became the Earl of Murray when he married the daughter of the Regent Murray. [...] He was rumoured to have been one of Bothwell's party in the assault on the King's palace at Holyrood in December 1591. When the King gave orders for his apprehension, he took flight, pursued by a party of the King's supporters, led by Huntly, who (taking advantage of the situation) killed him. [Cf. The Bonnie Earl of Murray, Child 181] Following the killing [...] in February, 1592, the MacIntoshes of Clan Chattan, intent on revenge, pillaged a castle and killed four men on an estate belonging to the Earl of Huntly, whom they held responsible for Murray's death. Huntly retaliated by laying waste the lands of Clan Chattan. Returning home from this engagement, he surprised the MacIntoshes spoiling his land at Cabrach and in the ensuing fight killed sixty of them. (Peggy Seeger, notes 'Blood and Roses' vol. 4)
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Subject: RE: 'Historical' Ballads From: Frank Hamilton Date: 16 Oct 99 - 03:38 PM Constitution and the Gueirierre", "Monitor and the Merrimac"...."Chester" by William Billings.....most any outlaw ballads although any resemblance between them and historical accuracy is surely suspect...."I Was Born About Ten Thousand Years Ago"....songs from the American Civil War such as "Marching Through Georgia", "Bonny Blue Flag", "Rally Round the Flag", "Unreconstructed Rebel"...there are so many that evoke history. Frank Hamilton |
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Subject: RE: 'Historical' Ballads From: Lesley N. Date: 16 Oct 99 - 03:52 PM And in connection with Suzanne's note about The Bonny Earl of Moray - Huntly, who killed Moray was possibly the subject of the ballad Geordie (according to Child). Huntly was involved in plots for the Spanish Invasion of Scotland and engaged in open rebellion against James VI. He was imprisioned but released and reconciled to James. He later rebelled again - and was again reconciled... Charles I eventually imprisoned him in Edinburgh Castle.
Or Geordie could be about and earlier Huntly who was quite a rotten fellow (possibly setting the precedent). Huntly was imprisoned for becoming "too familiar" with the Laird of Bignet's wife. His wife, Lady Ann, went to Edinburgh to plead for his life. She was successful, but when he was freed he killed his wife. For historical ballads you can't beat Child! |
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Subject: RE: 'Historical' Ballads From: catspaw49 Date: 16 Oct 99 - 04:00 PM Just a quick note..."Deportee" and "Plane Wreck at Los Gatos" are the same song. "1913 Massacre" (or Disaster) is a different song about copper miners in Michigan and a tragic Christmas party. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: 'Historical' Ballads From: Philippa Date: 16 Oct 99 - 06:47 PM and I suspect the 'Belfast Mill' refered to by Reiver 2 is Si Kahn's Aragon Mill with the placename changed |
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Subject: RE: 'Historical' Ballads From: John Nolan Date: 17 Oct 99 - 12:34 AM Greeting NSC from an ex-Coldstreamer: The Battle of Otterburn ("It fell about the Lammastide...") and Chevy Chase (God prosper long our noble king..") are quite different ballads, even if they are numerical neighbors in Child's collection. The first is about a major raid which culminated in battle on Wednesday, Aug. 19, 1388, (according to a French war correspondent)and the second is about a defiant hunt which may have occured about 1435. Different Douglas. Different Percy. The action in the first few verses of the first song takes place around Newcastle, before moving west. The second bloodbath, involving a hike from Bamburgh, could scarely have reached Otterburn, and was more likely to have occured on the flanks of The Cheviot. |
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Subject: RE: 'Historical' Ballads From: Joe Offer Date: 17 Oct 99 - 03:40 AM Hi - you may be interested in a site called History in Song (click here). Good site. -Joe Offer |
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Subject: ADD: Harry Orchard From: Art Thieme Date: 17 Oct 99 - 02:42 PM HARRY ORCHARD Don't know where I found this...
Harry Orchard is in prison,
He set his bomb out carefully,
Harry says he has killed others,
Harry blamed the Wobblies,
The Chief's were brought from Denver,
Clarence Darrow stood behind them,
Now listen all you young men,
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Subject: RE: 'Historical' Ballads From: Reiver 2 Date: 17 Oct 99 - 04:36 PM Marki, I couldn't agree with you more that these historical ballads can tweak one's interest in an event or person(s) and get one into researching to learn more. That's one of the main reasons I enjoy them. My point was (and you reinforce this) that one need to do research into the subject of the ballad and not just take what you find at face value. Most of my knowledge of Scottish and Irish history has been a direct result of researching songs. And while doing that, I constantly find more and more of the history that leads me off into other directions! Great fun. |
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Subject: RE: 'Historical' Ballads From: Reiver 2 Date: 17 Oct 99 - 05:35 PM Sometimes one finds in researching events and people, that a song is very "bang on" in historical accuracy. "Montrose" is a good example. I was amazed at how accurate it is in all kinds of detail. For example the verse, At Philliphaugh and Carbisdale, Bold fortune did turn cold; MacLeod, the Devil's advocate Sold James for oats and gold. In trying to learn all I could about James Graham I came across the following in John Prebble's history of Scotland, "The Lion in the North", pp. 257: "In the early spring of 1650... with a few hundred Danish mercenaries and a thousand Orkney levies, the Graham landed... on the far tip of northern Scotland. Two weeks later, at Carbisdale... his unwarlike Orcadians were slaughtered by lowland troops and he fled westward into the mountains of Assynt. A laird of the MacLeods, from whom he asked shelter, sold him to the government for twenty-five thousand pounds Scots, part of which was paid in oatmeal." The whole song is full of accurate detail like that. Of course, the ballad itself is, I believe, of fairly recent composition. I've always assumed it was a creation of Steeleye Span, but if anyone knows how, where and when the ballad originated, please set the record straight (and help further my education!). |
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Subject: Lyr Add: BELFAST MILL From: Reiver 2 Date: 17 Oct 99 - 06:08 PM Philippa, I don't know the song "Aragon Mill" that you refer to. The "Belfast Mill" that I know, is also a song of rather modern vintage that describes the effects of unemployment on a community. I can't remember where I found it (I can try to look it up when I have more time). At the east end of town, at the foot of the hill There's a chimney so tall... say's "Belfast Mill." But there's no smoke at all comin' out of the stack For the mill has shut down and it's never comin' back. CHO: And the only tune I hear Is the sound of the wind As she blows through the town... Weave and spin, weave and spin There's no children playing in the dark narrow street And the loom has shut down, it's so quiet I can't sleep. The loom now is quiet, there's dust on the floor... They've boarded up the windows and nailed shut the door. The mill has shut down, 'twas the only life I know. Tell me, what can I do? Tell me, where can I go? I'm too old to work, and I'm too young to die... Tell me where will I go now, my family and I? Of course, the line in the 3rd verse is from another great song, written by Joe Glazer, and popular among those involved in Union organizing, called "Too Old To Work." You work in the factory all of your life, Try to provide for your kids and your wife. When you get too old to produce any more, They hand you your hat and they show you the door. Too old to work; too old to work; When you're too old to work and you're too young to die, Who will take care of you, how'll you get by, When you're too old to work and you're too young to die. Come to think of it, I'm not really sure which may have been written first. The tunes, of course, are totally different, but the plight of the laid-off worker is universal. Anyone who has more information on the history of these songs, I hope will share the info. Philippa, do you think your "mill" song, is an ancestor of Belfast Mill? |
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Subject: RE: 'Historical' Ballads From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 17 Oct 99 - 09:52 PM "Belfast Mill" is indeed "Aragon Mill" with the title changed! Malcolm |
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Subject: RE: 'Historical' Ballads From: Reiver 2 Date: 17 Oct 99 - 10:55 PM Malcolm, just checked it out in the Data Base, and it's definitely the same song. Do you know anything about it's background? And, Philippa, I also just checked out "John MacLean's March". It's new to me, but glad to have it -- especially considering the background. I also note it's a Hamish Henderson song. His "Farewell to Sicily" is another of my favorites. Thanks for the comments on these songs from both of you. Now -- back to my initial post: Does anyone know the story behing "My Lovely Rose of Clare" and "Three Score and Ten", which seem to be the same tune? |
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Subject: RE: 'Historical' Ballads From: Sourdough Date: 18 Oct 99 - 12:03 AM I think that the Springfield Mountain song "Pesky sarpent bit his heel" has been linked to a specific person. As I recall, the family name was Orcutt but I don't remember any more than that. SD |
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Subject: RE: 'Historical' Ballads From: Chris Seymour Date: 18 Oct 99 - 12:14 AM Aragon Mill is by the southern US singer-songwriter Si Kahn, but Planxty recorded it and I'd guess someone in Ireland adapted their version with new lyrics. The folk process is a wonderful thing. This thread began with a list of ballads including "Montrose" as sung by Steeleye Span. I used to wonder a lot about that song -- who it was about, what was the history, etc. Didn't follow up at the time, but seeing as we're on the subject, anybody know anything about that one?
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Subject: RE: 'Historical' Ballads From: NSC Date: 18 Oct 99 - 04:59 AM Reiver 2 Three score and ten was collected in Robin Hood Bay in Yorkshire by Norma Waterson sometime around the late fifties or early sixties. At leat I think it was Norma but it could have been Mike. The song first appeared as a poem in a newspaper in or around 1880-1890 commemorating a disaster in the North Sea. The lovely Rose of Clare is of much more recent vintage and was written,I think, about 20 years ago. The tune was obviously borrowed but the two songs have no other relationship. George Henderson |
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Subject: RE: 'Historical' Ballads From: JedMarum Date: 18 Oct 99 - 08:52 AM In Dallas there is a local folky named Jed Marum who sings a few historical ballards he wrote about the Civil War and the Irish who fought in it, and some others. He also has songs about other historical events from Ireland and Scotland. One he sings is from the Louisianna Irish Regiment and he claims it is based on the History called Fighting Louisanna Tigers (I think that's the name). This was a part of the Louisianna army raised primarily from the Irish living in and around New Orleans, and they saw lots of action throughout the war between the states. Great song! |
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Subject: RE: 'Historical' Ballads From: JedMarum Date: 18 Oct 99 - 11:21 AM ooops! I forgot to make my point in the previous post; The truth is, like history, these wonderful historical ballards are still be written! I understand that they may require validation for accuracy, but so do the text books! |
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Subject: RE: 'Historical' Ballads From: Art Thieme Date: 18 Oct 99 - 11:40 AM Liam, I doubt the text books are any more correct than the ballads or the Internet. I can get into the tales told in the ballads as much as any supposedly scholarly treatise. We do the best we can, but often we have an agenda we wish to propogate too. After a while it seems like religion---it's what we believe. The media is the message. And that's fine with me. Is what is--or seems to be. (I believe that.) Art ;-) |
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Subject: RE: 'Historical' Ballads From: JedMarum Date: 18 Oct 99 - 11:56 AM agreed Art! I guess that as a writer of songs, one is normally more interested in the message than the 'envelope' so if a historical song is the means to deliver your message (anti-war, anti-English rule, anti-slavery, anti-Lincoln, pro-union, etc) then the historical 'facts' become less important than they would be to a consciencious historian - but, as you point out, some historians have used the historical facts to purvey their particular message. This is far more troubling! I have no problem accepting that Roddy McCorley may or may not have been the pure hero as he is portrayed in the song, I love the song, and accept its sentiment. But I do highly resent my children's text books being written by people who care more about book sales than they do facts! |
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Subject: RE: 'Historical' Ballads From: DougR Date: 18 Oct 99 - 12:30 PM In the Burl Ives song book, published in November 1953, the author has this to say about "On Springfield Mountain." "Unique among folk songs this song was originally written in 1761 as an elegy to the tune of "Old Hundred." It tells of the sad death of Timothy Myrick, twenty-two and engaged to marry, who was bitten by a rattlesnake in Framington, Massachuesetts. The melody we find here was written in 1840, when the song was performed on the stage as a comic song, "The Pesky Sarpint, a pathetic ballad." DougR |
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Subject: RE: 'Historical' Ballads From: JedMarum Date: 18 Oct 99 - 01:30 PM Framington? There is a Framingham but i don;t believe they have a Framington ... and rattlesnakes in Massachusetts would be quite a surprise, since there are so very few (I believe you'll find that rattelsnakes are not supposed to live in Massachusetts, although they do show there from time to time). |
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Subject: RE: 'Historical' Ballads From: Frank Hamilton Date: 18 Oct 99 - 02:17 PM Liam, Don't know how you were educated in the school system across the pond but in high school my history classes were always tainted with ideological messages of a propagandistic nature. When I got to college, I learned that history could have many different perspectives. There were Marxist historians that weren't Marxist themselves. I think that folk music give us more a feeling for the time than the facts of the time. History is often a "Rashomon" subject to the au current interpretations of the age. Take old Chris Columbus who is supposed to have discovered America and missed by landing on San Salvador in the Bahamas and Santa Domingo (The Domenican Republic). He has been taught in the US school system as some kind of hero where in fact he was responsible for the death and anhilation of the Arawak indians in the islands off the coast of mainland America. Myths get built up just as in folk ballads and the only significant thing about history in my view is the spin that one chooses to put on it. This is the so-called "lesson" that history teaches us. It's possible to base information on documented records found in various bureaus of health, death, birth or parishes but even these have sometimes been distorted by clerical errors or other reasons. History seems to be taught by consensus in the same way folk ballads are received and furthured. Frank Hamilton |
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Subject: RE: Belfast Mill / Aragon Mill From: Philippa Date: 18 Oct 99 - 02:45 PM Reiver 2, if you're interested, ARAGON MILL is in the DT database Is it about an actual place or generic? |
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Subject: RE: 'Historical' Ballads From: JedMarum Date: 18 Oct 99 - 03:00 PM Art - I believe you and I are in agreement. When taking one's history from any perspective, one must validate from several points of view .... even those sources you trust. As a famous American once said; "Trust but verify!" |
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Subject: RE: 'Historical' Ballads From: Lesley N. Date: 18 Oct 99 - 03:09 PM Liam - when I put up "The Pesky Sarpent" I was much amused that rattlesnakes are Massachusetts rattlesnakes "are so rare they are almost never encountered by people." (this from the U of Mass). Ives does say FarmingTon... Art - weren't you the one who wrote "ballads are always right but sometimes historians mess up the facts.." though it was probably said much more poetically than that... It made such an impression on me that I added it to my the definition of ballads on my page! One of the main reasons I love doing my site is that I've learned so much of the background behind the songs. The history behind the songs is interesting, and sometimes the "history" OF the song is just as interesting! True or not it's most fun! |
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Subject: RE: 'Historical' Ballads From: JedMarum Date: 18 Oct 99 - 04:56 PM Lesley - Farmington it must be, then! As an old Massachusetts boy, and not being familar with the town, I had to challenge! By the way; at one point Framingham Massachusetts had the dubious of honor of being the largest 'town' in the nation - 100K plus people and still governed by town meetings and selectmen, as opposed to city governments. It is a pretty (if a bit crowded) suburb! And the snakes? well, as your quote indicates, no one will say there are no rattlesnakes there, they just seem to be very difficult to find! |
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Subject: RE: 'Historical' Ballads From: DougR Date: 18 Oct 99 - 05:44 PM Liam: Just quotin' from the book, my man! Quotin' from the book. I have no idea if the great state of Mass. has rattlesnakes or not, but I'll bet if they don't and want some, we have pleanty to spare out here in Arizona! I could probably arrange to ship them some. DougR |
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Subject: RE: 'Historical' Ballads From: Reiver 2 Date: 18 Oct 99 - 06:53 PM Liam, I like your statement: When taking one's history from any perspective, one must validate from several points of view .... even those sources you trust. As a famous American once said; "Trust but verify!" Of course that's exactly what any good historian would do. Too many people confuse history with what has been taught in schools over the years. One needs to check out many different sources and many points of view, not just accept what a given book or professor (or song?)says. Much propaganda is disguised as "history", but a "historian", in my mind, is one who attempts to differentiate between the two. Philippa, I'll check out Aragon Mill in the DT database. Should have done that in the first place. Thanks! |
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Subject: RE: 'Historical' Ballads From: Reiver 2 Date: 18 Oct 99 - 07:03 PM Whoops! Almost forgot to thank NSC for the clarification re. "Three Score and Ten" and "My Lovely Rose of Clare." I'd wondered which came first. I would think that the tune is probably older than either of these songs. Thanks for the information. |
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Subject: RE: 'Historical' Ballads From: Lesley N. Date: 18 Oct 99 - 08:44 PM Well Liam - I don't know if I'd accept FramingTon without looking at a map (it should be near Springfield...) because I spent several weeks in conversation with a historian trying to track down Burl Ives' information on Old John Webb. His information didn't completely match the historical records (but wow what fascinating stuff turned up!) Which isn't to say he's wrong... it just means, as reiver2 says, it can't be verified...
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Subject: RE: 'Historical' Ballads From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 18 Oct 99 - 09:09 PM I think the big division is between songs from the time itself, and songs written long after - "antiquarian songs" I've heard them called. The latter are sometimes good songs, and they are often more historically accurate - but they don't have the authority a song froom the time does, in relation to the events they are dealing with. But what can happen is that a song that is ostensibly about a historical event is really using that event as a symbol for something that is happening at the time the song is written. So, for example, when Bobby Sands wrote "I wish I was back home in Derry" he wasn't just talking about events in 1804, he was linking them to modern parallels; and when Leon Rosselson wrote about the Diggers of 1649, he was writing directly for our situation in the late 20th century. www.bigfoot.com/~kevin.mcgrath
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Subject: RE: 'Historical' Ballads From: Art Thieme Date: 19 Oct 99 - 12:45 AM Lesley N, Did I say that?? Don't remember sayin' it. Oh, well... What I might've said is something I know I said a few times before : Foklore, like history, doesn't always lie. ;-) Art |
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Subject: RE: 'Historical' Ballads From: JedMarum Date: 19 Oct 99 - 10:28 AM Doug - if the snakes are dead, and prepared for cooking, I'll take 'em! Reiver - (that's river with and extra e) I love your comment that people confuse history with what is taught in school! I guess being optimistic we could call that history pointers (ya know, "here's a taste kids, go and find out for yourselves.") Lesley - Springfield Massachusetts, and especially its surrounding areas, are one of the nation's prettiest! There are many small hill towns out there, and I wouldn't be surprised if one is called Farmington. |
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Subject: RE: 'Historical' Ballads From: Reiver 2 Date: 19 Oct 99 - 01:28 PM Note to Chris S. who asked about Montrose. I can provide quite a lot of information about him, but as this thread is getting pretty long, I think I'll start a new one. Anyone interested in following through on this, check on "Montrose". If you have any specific questions, especially about any of the lines in the song, let me know. |
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Subject: RE: 'Historical' Ballads From: DougR Date: 19 Oct 99 - 01:31 PM Liam: Even a dead rattler is still dangerous. I guess if it was dressed for cooking it'd be pretty safe though. As others have pointed out, reading something in a book doesn't necessarily make it so. I'll bet old Burl never dreamed, when he wrote that intro, that someday there would be a Mudcat Cafe, and that somebody might challenge his story. So Burl, wherever you are, you should have known better than to fabricate, or repeat, a story that cannot be verified! DougR |
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Subject: RE: 'Historical' Ballads From: Lesley N. Date: 19 Oct 99 - 03:56 PM Liam - my boys and I have been several times to MA. (Though last year we were in the East - at Salem). We love the state. Ye Olde Ancestors came from MA (by way of England with the Puritans). In fact, it was only with my grandmothers that the last of the relations left (though we had long since stopped being Puritans...)
DougR - what do you mean not pass on information that's not verified? Where would be the fun in that? If that were the case no one would ever know that David Rizzo (stabbed by Darnley & henchmen in front of Mary Queen of Scots) *might* have written the tune for Lass of Pattie's Mill? And the rumor that Henry VIII wrote Greensleeves for Anne Boleyn would have been squelched (or verified) long ago... No, I realize it's hardly academic practice but I like to put every rumor I can find about folksongs on my pages! Well Art - It appears I have misquoted you. However, I will still give you credit for the statement (it's not too far from the other) - thereby perpetuating an inaccurate, unverifiable statement... I am so proud to be part of the oral tradtion! |
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Subject: RE: 'Historical' Ballads From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird) Date: 19 Oct 99 - 04:08 PM One (possibly unverified) assertion I've encountered is that "Springfield Mountain" is an old name for Wilbraham, Massachussetts. I think one of the versions in the DT appends a note stating that thesis. Once when I had a job in the Mojave Desert I'd take desert strolls on my lunch hour. I never saw a snake, notwithstanding I was in the realm of the famous Mojave Green Snake, said to be somewhat less shy than other members of the same genus. So maybe the Timber Rattlers in MA aren't rare; maybe, like the dinosaurs in Dilbert, they're just hiding. T. |
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Subject: RE: 'Historical' Ballads From: JedMarum Date: 20 Oct 99 - 12:49 AM T - I was half kidding about the Massachusetts rattlers. Most residents know there are a few, but they are very rare. The fireman are the ones who are forced to cope with them during the odd brush fires in the blue hills (south west of Boston. I lived in the woods as a child, and capture as many snakes as we could find ... never saw a rattler. Perhaps with a bit of coaxing, we might find Dilbert's dinosaurs. |
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Subject: RE: 'Historical' Ballads From: SEAROSS Date: 20 Oct 99 - 06:11 PM About Springfield Mountain : Sam Hinton provides a several song history of this ballad in his Folkways album The traveling folksong. he also has quite a bit of background about the different versions he performs. The first is a historical ballad and the last is a comic musci hall number. About snakes in MA: Remember this was in colonial days when Native Americans were also prevalent in MA, just look up the history of Deerfield sometime. I don't think you see many of them up there today either. |
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Subject: RE: 'Historical' Ballads From: Wolfgang Date: 21 Oct 99 - 07:30 AM Philippa, Aragon Mill is about an actual place. Look here, at Susanne's Folksong Notes. Susanne (skw) may not have seen this question yet or she surely would have provided this information. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: 'Historical' Ballads From: Alan of Australia Date: 21 Oct 99 - 09:17 AM G'day, The OAKHAM POACHERS is about a real event. I have a family connection to it - first cousins of mine are descended from George Perkins who was transported to Van Diemen's Land (Tasmania) for his part in the poaching incident. His eldest brother, John, was hanged, as told in this version of the same song. The song says that two brothers were "exiled in transportation", however the middle brother, Robert, died in a hulk on the Thames, as many prisoners did, these hulks being used as prisons with appalling conditions. I have seen the transcript of the trial of the Perkins brothers, and it seems they shot & wounded two gamekeepers, one of them in the "private parts". I imagine this keeper was very keen to testify against them.
Cheers, |
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