BS: ECHR approves deportation of Abu Hamza.

Subject: BS: ECHR approves deportation of Abu Hamza.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 04:53 AM

Lots of interesting angles on this.

Does this vindicate the court? Or does it show that it is a broken reed (pun intended) blowing in the political wind? What is likely to happen on appeal and how long will it take? If the appeal reverses the decision how will Hamza be retrieved if first deported?

How can the court conclude that the conditions at the facility at which Hamza will be held are not inhumane (OK, Hamza will have some slackening of the conditions because of his disability)? - Even though the US had to give assurances that Hamza will not be taken to Gitmo, how is that enforceable?

How can the court be clear that Hamza will have a fair trial? Even though the US has had to give assurances that they will not use their military court regime - how will that be enforceable?

Subject: RE: BS: ECHR approves deportation of Abu Hamza.
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 05:05 AM

In any extradition matter between countries, how can any assurances be relied upon? It would indeed be difficult to retrieve the man once he's in US, if his appeal were to succeed. What I feel is important is for people not to become consumed by emotional anger at what he may/may not have done. Obviously we all abhor terrorism, but Justice must take its course in an appropriate way. I personally would not be in favour of extradition of any suspect to face inhumane treatment, unfair trial or over-extreme punishment. Vengeance and anger do not play a part in the cool, lawful administration of Justice and The Law.

Subject: RE: BS: ECHR approves deportation of Abu Hamza.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 05:05 AM

For the benefit of those of us who wondered, ECHR is the European Court of Human Rights.

Now, who the hell is Abu Hamza?

-Joe Offer, Acronymphomaniac-

Subject: RE: BS: ECHR approves deportation of Abu Hamza.
From: Leadfingers
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 05:39 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Hamza_al-Masri

Subject: RE: BS: ECHR approves deportation of Abu Hamza.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 09:13 AM

According to the USA one of the most dangerous organisers of terrorism in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: ECHR approves deportation of Abu Hamza.
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 11:23 AM

They're probably quite right Richard, but this must be proved in a Court of Law by just procedures, and his punishment, if found guilty by a jury, should be within the bounds of the civilised and humane. As you ask in your initial post, can this be guaranteed?

Subject: RE: BS: ECHR approves deportation of Abu Hamza.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 11:49 AM

I didn't say I thought he was. In fact I do rather disapprove of him, but as you say due process of law is important or we come to resemble China (or the dystopian vision of the US in 2013 depicted in "Escape from Los Angeles").

The Guardian's description of conditions in "Supermax" in the ADX Florence facility sounds very inhumane to me. Not quite a scene from "Kung Fu Panda" - but nearly.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/10/abu-hamza-isolation-supermax-prison?INTCMP=SRCH

Subject: RE: BS: ECHR approves deportation of Abu Hamza.
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 12:05 PM

In UK, solitary confinement (eg in the Segregation Unit) has a limit of 21 days. The article says that 'suspects' are confined in Supermax while awaiting trial. Therefore it is conceivable that some of the inmates in there are innocent. Remand prisoners in UK, even in High Security prisons, are never treated like that. I'm not in favour of cruelty and mental torture for even the most wicked of offenders. It does say that Abu Hamza wouldn't be held in this 'Facility' as he is disabled. So I wonder where he WOULD be held?

Subject: RE: BS: ECHR approves deportation of Abu Hamza.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 05:00 PM

Since he's a British citizen and is living in England, and anything he might have done in the way of faciitating or encouraging criminal acts, would have been done here, so far as I am aware, I'm puzzled why this isn't the appropriate place for any trials to take place.

I don't think he has ever been to the United States, has he? So why should that be the place for him to go on trial?

Subject: RE: BS: ECHR approves deportation of Abu Hamza.
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 05:04 AM

The Mail had a very funny cartoon the other day. Hamza was sitting in his UK cell pleading with the warders not to send him to the US on a plane because... "they tend to fly into buildings..." !!!

Subject: RE: BS: ECHR approves deportation of Abu Hamza.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 05:31 AM

Did you notice the pin ups on his cell wall?

I personally would not be in favour of extradition of any suspect to face inhumane treatment, unfair trial or over-extreme punishment.
That is the law, but the interpretation is that no country in the world is deemed humane enough so there is no extradition.

Subject: RE: BS: ECHR approves deportation of Abu Hamza.
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 07:33 AM

LOL!! Yes, Keith, they were all ladies in burkas and veils! The point made about where Hamza's crimes were actually committed brings to mind the Aspergers lad who had hacked into Top Security files in the US. His 'offences' were committed in UK too. I'm not sure how all this is decided. One would think that someone who'd never even set foot on US soil couldn't possibly be tried there for a crime. But presumably it all works the same the other way round, and US suspects could be extradited over here to face trial.

Subject: RE: BS: ECHR approves deportation of Abu Hamza.
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 07:40 AM

Eliza, Mossad can operate in every country in the world at will. They just collect their suspect, parcel them up and take them to occupied Palestine and try them before an illegal court. Always approved by Washington of course.

Interesting article in above link about UK found guilty of crimes by ECHR

Subject: RE: BS: ECHR approves deportation of Abu Hamza.
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 01:20 PM

All injustices committed elsewhere do not warrant similar practices here. Illegal courts are just that - illegal. I agree with the ECHR verdict on the shootings in N Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: ECHR approves deportation of Abu Hamza.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 04:51 PM

US suspects could be extradited over here to face trial.

Pigs have been observed flying across the Atlantic carrying them.

Subject: RE: BS: ECHR approves deportation of Abu Hamza.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 12:15 PM

let the Yanks pay for this idiot, for a change. He's an embarassment and a nuisance to everybody. if they're daft enough enough to take this blowhard twit seriously - if they want to talk bollocks with someone, they may as well engage with a fluent speaker of the genre.

Subject: RE: BS: ECHR approves deportation of Abu Hamza.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 03:12 PM

If we are not allowed to deport a radical supporter of terrorism to his Middle East homeland, for fear he may be tortured, then we certainly should not be expected to extradite our own citizens (however unwanted) to a country whose Department of Homeland Security may very well use torture.

The only difference is that the US justifies its actions by establishing its own definition of what constitutes torture, in direct opposition to International Convention, to which it does not subscribe.

This, arguably, makes the US of A just as much a rogue state as any of the Middle East states.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: ECHR approves deportation of Abu Hamza.
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 03:39 PM

Actually Don you've hit on a moot point, which is 'what exactly constitutes torture or inhumane treatment?' Here in UK we have our own ideas of this, as does Europe. No doubt other countries think it's OK for example to isolate a felon for years at a time in solitary confinement or to prevent his view out of a window.(However, I seem to remember Charlie Bronson being treated in solitary like an animal in a concrete cage for years, here in a UK prison!) If the USA can't reassure us that Hamza would receive a fair trial and humane conditions, we can't in all conscience send him over there.

Subject: RE: BS: ECHR approves deportation of Abu Hamza.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 03:43 PM

I think we should have a whip round for his plane ticket. The real question is, how do we keep him out once our American allies realise they've been sold a pup, and this bloke is the Islamic equivalent of the bloke who hangs round shopping precincts with a dog in a pram, eating a pasty and showing his belly button.

Subject: RE: BS: ECHR approves deportation of Abu Hamza.
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 03:50 PM

As he's a British Citizen, we can't keep him out! (And I'm quite fascinated, Big Al, who is this strange person with a dog in a pram eating pasties and 'showing his belly button'? I'd love to see that, very eccentric!)

Subject: RE: BS: ECHR approves deportation of Abu Hamza.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 04:54 PM

I thought every town had one.....

Subject: RE: BS: ECHR approves deportation of Abu Hamza.
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 09:38 AM

Well, here in Norfolk, every second person is a bit...er...eccentric by national standards. Hence the phrase 'Normal For Norfolk'!

Subject: RE: BS: ECHR approves deportation of Abu Hamza.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 10:43 AM

""If the USA can't reassure us that Hamza would receive a fair trial and humane conditions, we can't in all conscience send him over there.""

Added to which, we need to think seriously about the rights and wrongs of having handed over Christopher Tappin and others, for the same reason.

Tappin may have already served up to two years when he comes to trial, so what happened to "innocent until proven guilty"?

He is being refused bail pending trial as if he were a dangerous criminal, when in truth he is less of a danger to the public than George Zimmerman, who is still free to walk the streets.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: ECHR approves deportation of Abu Hamza.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Apr 12 - 08:03 AM

Arrested.
Home office says he will be deported.

Subject: RE: BS: ECHR approves deportation of Abu Hamza.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Apr 12 - 08:04 AM

Abu Qatada, that is.

Subject: RE: BS: ECHR approves deportation of Abu Hamza.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Apr 12 - 08:25 AM

But can you believe anything that Theresa May says? I mean look at her choice in shoes!

Subject: RE: BS: ECHR approves deportation of Abu Hamza.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Apr 12 - 05:21 PM

I understand that the extradition process could drag on for a long times.

He should have been subjected to rendition long ago. He could have been in detention in Cuba and forgotten.

Subject: RE: BS: ECHR approves deportation of Abu Hamza.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Apr 12 - 05:30 PM

Fuckwit. You WANT to create a martyr? Or you hope that when they come for you you will not have the benefit of the rule of law?

Subject: RE: BS: ECHR approves deportation of Abu Hamza.
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 18 Apr 12 - 07:33 AM

Was ECHR approval actually needed anyway? France and Italy have shown that it is possible to ignore ECHR rulings.

Subject: RE: BS: ECHR approves deportation of Abu Hamza.
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Apr 12 - 01:41 PM

The UK seems to be the only EC member-state that actually obeys the rulings of that bunch of numpties.

All the others nod sagely, enthusiastically shouting their Johnny-Foreigner equivalents of "Hear, hear" and, "Oh absolutely" when rulings are made, whilst quietly whispering, "Fuck that for a game of soldiers" behind their hands.

Subject: RE: BS: ECHR approves deportation of Abu Hamza.
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 18 Apr 12 - 02:10 PM

I reckon you're right Backwoodsman. Remember the BSE scare? Farmers were supposed to notify the agricultural authorities and have their entire stock burned. French farmers laughed, called it JCB disease and quietly buried affected animals.

Subject: RE: BS: ECHR approves deportation of Abu Hamza.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Apr 12 - 07:27 PM

I suppose there are examples of complete morons becoming folk heroes and martyrs - the Clyde Barrow syndrome, Raoul Moat, ...

Subject: RE: BS: ECHR approves deportation of Abu Hamza.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 02:47 AM

It seems he was arrested before his right to appeal had expired.
No wonder he was smiling.
He could sue for wrongful arrest.
May may have to go while he stays!

Subject: RE: BS: ECHR approves deportation of Abu Hamza.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 03:47 AM

It seems rather odd. AFAIK the original judgment was given on the 17th Jan and any appeal had to be made within 3 months. Well, there is only one 17th in any month so the time for appeal therefore expired on the 16th April (at midnight). This is the UK government position and I think it right. However, as I understand it the ECHR procedure does not include automatic rejection of an appeal if it is out of time but goes to a 5-judge panel to determine admissibility and one of the things they consider in deciding admissibility is whether the appeal was made in due time.

Presumably Qatada's lawyers (and so far court officials) say that the first day for appeal was the 18th so time expired on the 17th but that cannot be right since Qatada could have appealed on the very day of the January judgment, that being the 17th and not the 18th.

Subject: RE: BS: ECHR approves deportation of Abu Hamza.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 03:48 AM

PS - if May goes I shall be delighted.

Subject: RE: BS: ECHR approves deportation of Abu Hamza.
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 02:12 AM

"The UK seems to be the only EC member-state that actually obeys the rulings of that bunch of numpties"

Mind the Court was a creation of the Council of Europe. Set up after being initially instigated by Churchill after the end of the war. We were founder members of the Council long before we were members of the EU and it is not one and the same thing. Not all memebers of the Council are EU members also. The EU often incorrectly gets the flak for the rulings of the court.