BS: The Grand National!

Subject: BS: The Grand National!
From: GUEST,Georgiansilver
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 09:41 AM

Just an hour and a half till the start... who will win this year?

Subject: RE: BS: The Grand National!
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 09:43 AM

Sorry.. that was me.. cookie reset now!!

Subject: RE: BS: The Grand National!
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 10:05 AM

Ah - now you're asking! Has the National ever been worth a bet since the days of Red Rum (3-time winner)?

Subject: RE: BS: The Grand National!
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 12:51 PM

Yes, and now it's over, two horses are dead and who knows what the others have suffered? It's disgraceful and should be banned. The jumps are too high, the course is too long and it's cruelty just to make wads of money. I hate it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Grand National!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 07:46 PM

Well, as with thousands of other people, my one and only contact with racing is the Grand National. I have a little flutter every year, but I think I'm packing it in after this race. Synchronised, a horse that was clearly unsettled at the start, threw his jockey before the race had even started. He was then allowed to delay the start of the race by about ten minutes while he was recaptured and calmed down. I'm a Dutchman if this didn't unsettle all the other horses and riders who were raring to go. Synchronised and his jockey should have been told to bugger off - immediately disqualified. As that would have amounted to about a million bets being repaid, I can imagine why he was allowed to continue. There was then the fiasco of two false starts and a tragi-comic session with two blokes struggling to refix a crude tape - in the richest race in the world! - across the start line. The horses were clearly spooked by all the loud-hailer shouting and bawling from officials at the start line while all that lot was going on. Everything felt wrong about the race from the word go, and, of course, two horses had to be put down, both victims of Becher's, a "drop-fence" lower on its landing side than on its taking-off side. Synchronised, a horse that should never have run, was one of them. I'm not having my quid each way in future unless drop-fences are removed, jumps are removed from turns on the course and a decision is made to start the race without a tape (ridiculous in a 4-mile race). I'm not betting on a race which forces me to cover my eyes in horror about six times in fifteen minutes. I'll have a punt on the bloody lottery instead.

Subject: RE: BS: The Grand National!
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 06:41 AM

Like most of this 'sport' it is run by rich people for rich people. It is paid for by betting - many betters are poor. The rich don't care much for horses. When the horses break legs they shoot them there and then, on the race track.

Best wishes

L in C#

Subject: RE: BS: The Grand National!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 06:46 AM

Run like the rest of capitalism really, Les.

Subject: RE: BS: The Grand National!
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 06:48 AM

For sure Steve ......... The Sport of Kings?

Les

Subject: RE: BS: The Grand National!
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 06:49 AM

I guess it's a good metaphore (?) for Dave and his LibDem Mates.

Its so bad and ugly that dave will demand reforms and Nick will demand changes

Les

Subject: RE: BS: The Grand National!
From: banjoman
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 06:53 AM

Its worth noting that Synchronised was not injured in its fall at Bechers Brook but was brought down at a later fence which it jumped without being forced to,and was brought down by another horse. Horses are running and jumping machines, and although I believe that every care should be taken its worth making the point that these magnificent animals do carry on running and jumping without a jockey on board. The number of runners is, IMO, the real issue as 40 horses charging at full tilt will only result in falls and interference. Rduce the maximum to 25 or 30 and see the result

Subject: RE: BS: The Grand National!
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 07:11 AM

I was demonstrating outside the Grand national stadium yesterday, hoping that the furore cause by last year's fatalities might have had some effect. It hasn't. Two horses killed in the National itself and two more on the previous two days. An average of 370 horses killed in races in Britain every year.

Carnage on that level is totally barbaric. It is cruel. It is brutal and it must be stopped.

Oh, and banjoman. Of course riderless horses will continue to run. They think they're in a stampede. I think they're right.

Subject: RE: BS: The Grand National!
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 07:37 AM

Look, I am all for nobling the rich, but couldn't horse racing go on with out horses having to die?

Like banjoman pointed out too many horses! Health and safety at work? No, not much. Lower more sensible jumps would stop most of the carnage wouldn't it?

L in C#

Subject: RE: BS: The Grand National!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 07:48 AM

Polo is free of this problem thank goodness.

Subject: RE: BS: The Grand National!
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 08:34 AM

Well, that's arelief to us all

Les

Subject: RE: BS: The Grand National!
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 09:29 AM

Bless you Owen for demonstrating outside the Course. The whole thing has me in tears. Horses, banjoman, are NOT machines of any sort, jumping or otherwise. They are living creatures. I can't understand why the RSPCA doesn't step in. Maybe they are 'in it' as well. The same applies to greyhound racing (definitely not an upper-class sport) The poor dogs are raced 'til they drop and then have to be found charitable homes to take them in, riddled with arthritis and hardly able to walk. We decry the Spaniards for 'bullfighting' ( ie torturing bulls) but we're every bit as bad. When will all this stop?

Subject: RE: BS: The Grand National!
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 11:46 AM

Well, I know a bit about racing, being a registered geyhound trainer, and banjoman is correct in his view that there are just too many runners for adequate safety to horses and jockeys.
money and huge betting companies are the real problem, they want to turn each running into a "spectacle" to encourage mass betting.
The welfare of the horses is always secondary.

The "safety precautions" recommended by some of the welfare groups have also contributed to the casualties in recent years.
Lowering of the fences has meant the race being run almost at hurdle pace, and when horses are travelling so fast over substancial fences(not flexible hurdles), one mistake means the horse and rider end up on the floor and usually badly injured.

Years ago, the size of the fences meant that the pace was slower allowing time for horse and rider to adjust from running to jumping mode.....the falls were more spectacular but injuries were less severe
Speed kills, over National Hunt fences.

The bottom line is do people want horse and greyhound racing banned?
i think no, for the spectacle of race horses or dogs at full stride is beautiful and totally breathtaking......the problem is the betting industry which preys on peoples addictions, makes money its god and cares nothing for beauty or bravery from the animals involved.

All betting should be through the totalisator system, where profits are ploughed back into track safety and animal welfare.

Subject: RE: BS: The Grand National!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 12:02 PM

I don't want anything banned either. I suppose the system does prey on people's addictions, but so does the government when it taxes beer and fags. Most of the people who bet on the National are probably more like me, once-a-year flutterers, not addicts. Point taken about fence height and the pace of the race. I could be wrong but I don't recall all these fatalities in years gone by. I think there are far too many runners on the race, I think the drop-fences should be done away with and I think that jumps with turns immediately after, causing crowding on the inside, are bad news as well. Something drastic must be done about the way the race is started. It's all far too tense, and rogue horses and false starts are surely just going to give all the riders and horses the jitters, which can't be good for safety.

Subject: RE: BS: The Grand National!
From: Jim McLean
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 12:58 PM

Just after the race an official, in 'justifying' putting the two injured horses down, said the harness used to lift them would result in the horses catching pneumonia!
I have just watched a TV program where a cow was lifted using a harness so I assume the real reason for killing the horses was purely economical. Shocking.

Subject: RE: BS: The Grand National!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 01:09 PM

It could be argued that humans have been riding horses over high objects for thousands of years so what's all the fuss about, and I'm sure that those who stand to make money out horse racing think along those lines. I do not.

Subject: RE: BS: The Grand National!
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 01:33 PM

It doesn't matter a bit to me whether people 'don't want' these things banned, or 'enjoy' watching them. The races are cruel and the poor animals have no choice. It's just about vast sums of money and thoughtless, heartless exploitation of defenceless creatures. Can people not imagine what it must be like for a dog or a horse in this kind of life? They must be either thick or hard as flint (or both).

Subject: RE: BS: The Grand National!
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 02:12 PM

Bonzo. There's a difference between people riding horses out of necessity, eg when horses are the only means of locomotion, or for pleasure, and subjecting them to horrifying casualty rates so that various vested interests can make various pots of money.

Subject: RE: BS: The Grand National!
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 02:12 PM

This kind of life? They get the best of food, the best of vetinerary care, they get to be regularly exercised and the get the chance to run and jump. Horses are fragile creatures and easily damaged, and tragically some of them come to grief. However is that really a worse life than those sad horses you see tethered on a piece of waste ground, bored out of their minds and ridden once a week, if they're lucky?

As for it being all about money, firstly these are immensely valuable animals, so if there were any possibility of saving them then I'm sure that would be taken. Secondly, you only have to look at the news reports to understand what a blow the loss of a horse is to the owners, the trainers, stable lads and jockeys involved.

The large field adds to the danger, but it also adds to the unpredictability of the race. Luck matters more than form, so it is a race where an outsider is at least in with a chance. It is this, as well as the spectacle, which makes the National such a special race. On the other hand, it is tragic when horses die, and it seemed especially poignant this year as both victims had been part of the pre-race build-up rather than being anonymous.

I am not a racing enthusiast, and I was upset by the loss of those horses. However I wouldn't want to see the race banned or watered down either. I accept this is an ambivalent position to be in.

Subject: RE: BS: The Grand National!
From: MartinRyan
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 02:25 PM

My daughter won the office pool on the race. She's dividing the money between champagne for herself and horse manure for her allottment! Seems appropriate. ;>)>

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: The Grand National!
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 02:52 PM

Eliza....Greyhounds are running machines, that is their purpose in life, to chase and catch their prey.
It is a rare privilidge to watch a greyhound or a racehorse at full stretch...a thing of beauty.
They love to run just as most of us love to sing....and although not ideal, the racetrack is one of the safest places to do it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Grand National!
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 05:32 PM

The number of runners is, IMO, the real issue as 40 horses charging at full tilt will only result in falls and interference. Rduce the maximum to 25 or 30 and see the result
A sensible post, in fact i wouLd reduce the number to twenty,all handicap races of 20 runners pay out on the first 4 places.Icannot remeber a handicap race of 20 runners over the jumps where a horse has had to be killed because of a broken leg, it is very rare
hardly any other races including other races at aintree,especially the topham chase which is a similiar race to the grand national have casualties.
the topham chase is 2m 5 furlong 110 yards and has only 26 runners, and no casualties.
Steve Shaw is uninformed in his comments and appears to know nothing about racing other than having an annual bet on the grand national.
The obvious step is to reduce the amount of runners,I would reduce it to 20 runners., and reduce the distance to 3 miles 7 furlongs.
Glenfarclas Cross Country Handicap Chase is a similiar race run at Cheltenham but is only 3 miles 7 furlongs, Fatalities are very rare.but it is still a great test of jumping ability.
The Grand national is a bit of red herring[ however it is a problem easily solved ,a much more serious problem are the abandoned horsest hat are left half starving all over the country

Subject: RE: BS: The Grand National!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 06:43 PM

Nice dig there, Dick. Seeing that in your post was like finding a turd in a pile of turds.

Subject: RE: BS: The Grand National!
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 05:39 AM

Steve, you said
"Well, as with thousands of other people, my one and only contact with racing is the Grand National. I have a little flutter every year, but I think I'm packing it in after this race. Synchronised, a horse that was clearly unsettled at the start, threw his jockey before the race had even started. He was then allowed to delay the start of the race by about ten minutes while he was recaptured and calmed down. I'm a Dutchman if this didn't unsettle all the other horses and riders who were raring to go. Synchronised and his jockey should have been told to bugger off - immediately disqualified. As that would have amounted to about a million bets being repaid, I can imagine why he was allowed to continue. There was then the fiasco of two false starts and a tragi-comic session with two blokes struggling to refix a crude tape - in the richest race in the world! - across the start line. The horses were clearly spooked by all the loud-hailer shouting and bawling from officials at the start line while all that lot was going on. Everything felt wrong about the race from the word go, and, of course, two horses had to be put down, both victims of Becher's, a "drop-fence" lower on its landing side than on its taking-off side."
you said you only bet once a year, you also said two horses had to be put down as a result of Bechers, that is incorrect, THATS WHY I CALL YOUR COMMENT UNINFORMED, It is also uninformed because these horses are horses that are very experienced race horses they are used to crowd noise and have encountered false starts before.
you can interpret my comments about being uninformed how you like, thats your problem.

Subject: RE: BS: The Grand National!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 05:59 AM

I don't really care what you say or how you say it. It's perfectly clear that I write as a once-a-year flutterer, one of those people the National is supposedly catering for. It is as such that I offer my opinion, no more. Your first intervention in this thread, was, I must say, very unfocussed and even a bit daft in places, and your pejorative dig at me was unnecessary and certainly uncalled for. No wonder you get into trouble all the time.

Subject: RE: BS: The Grand National!
From: Stu
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 06:13 AM

"It is a rare privilidge to watch a greyhound or a racehorse at full stretch...a thing of beauty."

Do you know why happens to greyhounds after they've fulfilled their usefulness of entertaining us? They might look wonderful running at full stretch, but a night at the dogs means you are complicit in an industry that is institutionally cruel and causes suffering on a scale almost beyond comprehension.

From three days ago: Watch the video. Google 'greyhounds' and weep.

Subject: RE: BS: The Grand National!
From: Silas
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 08:47 AM

It's OK SJ - they are, after all, only machines.

What a wanker that bloke is.

Subject: RE: BS: The Grand National!
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 09:07 AM

The race has become just too big. Yet again previously healthy horses had to be destroyed and it seems to be accepted as a matter of fact. Just before the race began when the horses were being walked around it was chilling to think that some of them would be put out of their misery by that afternoon. Was it Synchronised that threw his rider and ran off, the animal should have been disallowed to run and the jockey's backside kicked for creating such a fuss for it to run.   Racehorses are beautiful to watch at full speed I agree but how many on average are destroyed in comparison to any of the other races? I can remember going back a while ago there was an expose about the Grand National and there was a call for the jumps to be modified then. It obviously didn't make any difference or there are still far too many horses being entered into the Grand National.

Subject: RE: BS: The Grand National!
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 09:58 AM

Steve,what is daft about reducing the number of horses? what is daft in pointing out that you are mistaken in saying 2 horses had to be put down as result of bechers, what is daft in suggesting shortening the distance to 3 miles 7 furlongs?
some equine experts[ im not sure i agree] argue that by making the fences easier, that the horses travel faster, so that in fact it is not safer at all, their argument is the stiffer the fence the horse has to jump,forces the horse to jump it more slowly., I do not know whether this means that more or less horses are likely to break their legs, but it a point worth considering.
neither is it daft to point out that abandoned horses all over England are suffering more cruelty than 2 horses AT THE NATIONAL that had to be put down.

Subject: RE: BS: The Grand National!
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 10:16 AM

Abandoned and cruelly treated horses, racehorses, greyhounds etc are all a scandal IMO. The fact that animals suffer in one context doesn't at all reduce one's concern for all the others. NO animal in this so-called animal-loving country should be suffering AT ALL. End of.

Subject: RE: BS: The Grand National!
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 10:59 AM

racehorses are generally treated well [because of their value] in comparison to many horses that were bought by people as a pet and then the saidpeople decide they can no longer afford to look after them.
I do believe that reducing the number of runners in the grand national will result in less horses having to be put down

Subject: RE: BS: The Grand National!
From: Stu
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 11:16 AM

"What a wanker that bloke is."

There's no call for that sort of personal insult. Are the Mudelfs going to allow this?

Subject: RE: BS: The Grand National!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 11:18 AM

""Just after the race an official, in 'justifying' putting the two injured horses down, said the harness used to lift them would result in the horses catching pneumonia!
I have just watched a TV program where a cow was lifted using a harness so I assume the real reason for killing the horses was purely economical. Shocking.""

You misunderstood what the man said and quoted only part of the sentence Jim.

He wasn't talking about lifting the horse at the track at all. That bit is easy and perfectly safe for the animal.

What he said is that you can't keep horses still, so while the break is healing the horse has to be immobilised by using a sling to take the weight off its legs. It is that which restricts its breathing and generally leads to pneumonia.

It is also a fact that during the healing process the horse is in constant pain and there is never any certainty that the bones will knit, so success is infrequent, to say the least.

Is it really credible that anybody, however wealthy, would willingly destroy an asset worth twenty or thirty thousand pounds if there were a realistic alternative?

Having said that, fewer runners and no fences at corners would seem to be the only sensible way forward, short of an outright ban.

Banning is not a particularly good idea for the following reasons:-

1. It would most likely lead to illegal racing where the safety of the horses wouldn't even be a consideration.

2. We have lost most of the commercial and agricultural activities which used good quality horses and we are fast approaching the point where there will be no more heavy horses or thoroughbreds except in horse racing. I don't relish the thought of the day when all that's left in England is worn out hacks, trudging along country lanes with weekend riders.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: The Grand National!
From: Silas
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 11:41 AM

"It would most likely lead to illegal racing where the safety of the horses wouldn't even be a consideration."

So saftey of horses IS a consideration - my arse.

"I don't relish the thought of the day when all that's left in England is worn out hacks, trudging along country lanes with weekend riders."

Sounds ideal to me.

Subject: RE: BS: The Grand National!
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 01:49 PM

I think Jack, that Silas's dazzling wit was aimed at me!

I've been called worse.

Subject: RE: BS: The Grand National!
From: Stu
Date: 17 Apr 12 - 05:17 AM

I realise who it was aimed at ake, I was just hoping we could have a discussion on a contentious subject without the insults (which don't count as argument or discussion).

This being Mudcat, it was a forlorn hope.

Subject: RE: BS: The Grand National!
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Apr 12 - 06:19 PM

Well, thanks for that Jack.....you've risen several notches in my estimation.

Dont know about Ireland Jack, but I am attached to Shawfield Stadium in Glasgow and all greyhounds are microchipped, registered with the GBGB and must be rehomed after their racing days are over.
I have been involved in greyhound racing for almost fifty years and the bad eggs who mistreated their dogs are gone from the sport.

In fact threre was one case which came to light a few years ago, and the person concerned was dealt with by other owners.
He has been banned from keeping dogs, attending any track in Scotland and has been fitted with nice new teeth.
There are branches of the Retired Greyhound Trust all over the country, which are run by committed people who have the welfare of the dogs at heart, they vet all new owners and keep an eye on ex racers till they are sure the dogs are settled and happy.

Retired greyhounds make excellent pets and need very little exercise, contrary to popular belief.

Personally, my dogs have always been part of our family and loved almost as much as our children.