BS: Can we afford Democracy?

Subject: BS: Can we afford Democracy?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 02 Jun 12 - 12:45 PM

One of the most shocking (and most radical)state government actions in recent years IMO,is Michigan's appointment of city managers to run the local governments of financially troubled cities. This action allows a single non-elected manager to disenfranchise local voters, overrule elected officials, void contracts and pensions, and generally act as an unhindered dictator. And yet nobody (except for some liberal cable TV talk shows) seems to even mention it.
    What gives?

Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy?
From: gnu
Date: 02 Jun 12 - 12:51 PM

"city managers" are simply spies for the state government. They report poor management, graft, whatever. They don't actually "run" the show... they police it.

Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Jun 12 - 12:53 PM

That's very odd.

I would like to add that, yes, we can afford democracy, but we cannot afford a chronic addiction to fighting wars in distant places. However, that's another subject.

It sounds like big business has become the de facto ruler of Michigan, as well as of the United States Congress. They have forgotten that money was created to serve the people, not the other way around.

Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Jun 12 - 01:46 PM

gnu, your interpretation holds for Canada, but not for what is happening in Michigan.

This excerpted from New York Times:
Benton Harbor, Michigan, concerning city's elected commissioners"
"But as of this month, they (the commissioners) are literally powerless, and hold no authority to make any decisions. Not even on potholes.
"The city is now run by Joseph L. Harris, an accountant and auditor from miles away, one of a small cadre of "emergency managers" dispatched like firefighters by the state to put out financial blazes in Michigan's most troubled cities.
.....
"Mr. Harris has been handed sweeping new powers under recent state legislation that emergency managers like him say was needed to remedy dire situations.
.......
"Michigan's state-appointed emergency managers do have the authority to set adide union contracts, giving the state [Republican administration] in the eyes of some, the opportunity to crush any localunion deals in the name of budget repair."
..............
"Only four entities in Michigan, including Detroit's public school system, currently are deemed distressed enough to require oversight by emergency managers. But some economists predict those ranks will grow, given cuts in aid from tje state and stagnant tax revenues."

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/27/us/27michigan.html?pagewanted=all

article by Monica Davey, published April 26, 2011.

Dick Grenhaus is rightly concerned about this form of "dictator" rule.

What will happen to Detroit's troubled public school system under emergency management?

The administrations of other states, like Indiana, have suggested similar takeovers.

Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy?
From: Crowhugger
Date: 02 Jun 12 - 02:10 PM

I wish I could identify the root problem and how to fix it. Dick, you've posed a tough one. That sort of disengagement is growing in Canada too and I wouldn't be surprised if it is growing in some form or another in all the other states.

As another example of the degree of disengagement from the true essence of life--doing things, not just sponging up endless programming or tedium offered by others--I know more and more people who make a living walking dogs for people who don't turn off their computer or TV to go walk their own pets.

One thing I'm sure of: We can't afford not to have democracy.

The other day I obtained a meeting on short notice with local civic staff where we were to share information on a plan for recreation areas, a plan that so far fails to meet the needs of a huge contingent of users of the space. I couldn't find anyone with a vested interest in the same issues who would or could rearrange their schedule to attend with me. (These are people who are typically available to do things during the daytime.) Finally a friend came along simply because she's a friend and I asked her; I wanted a witness in case something was said on which I needed another perspective. Lovely that a friend does that for me, but depressing that people with a vested interested don't do it for themselves and each other. [sigh]

Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 02 Jun 12 - 03:44 PM

Dick Greenhaus: "One of the most shocking (and most radical)state government actions in recent years IMO,is Michigan's appointment of city managers to run the local governments of financially troubled cities. This action allows a single non-elected manager to disenfranchise local voters, overrule elected officials.... "

Democracy we can EASILY afford. However, what you described is NOT Democracy. The same 'model' is used for the federal government's use of appointed 'czars', or regulatory department heads. This is primarily a tactic to avoid making those oppressive and controlling decisions, of which there is NO accountability!

The same model is in place for our 'Federal Reserve', hence, because they, in conjunction with 'special interests' dictate every notion that they come up with, to further THEIR agendas, while leaving us to pay the bill...WITH INTEREST!...and that includes a lot of 'pet' social programs' and 'social engineering'....to accommodate them...though it is 'sold' to us as either 'patriotic', 'progressive', 'liberal', or 'conservative'!

Leaving us alone, without their meddling, would be a far MORE productive, and profitable way for everyone concerned......unless they FEAR of losing control of their dominance!

....and the musical version of what I just posted.......

Regards,

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 02 Jun 12 - 06:02 PM

I'm not the one who thinks we can't afford Democracy. I'm also not the governor of Michigan.
What I find especially troubling is the aklmost-complete lack of coverage of this outrage in the mass media.

Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 02 Jun 12 - 06:12 PM

Fr'instance:
Don Weatherspoon's recent edict declaring the end of the Muskegon Heights public school system and the start of a charter school entity shocked believers in democracy. This emergency manager made the decision to lay off all of the teachers and staff and told them to reapply for a limited number of jobs. Weatherspoon closed all of the schools but three, and dissolved all contracts and union agreements. This abuse of power was granted to him by Republican legislators in the state House and Senate and Gov. Rick Snyder.

Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy?
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jun 12 - 06:34 PM

What is going on in Michigan is totalitarianism... The state government gets to pick and choose which local governments it wants to occupy... It is tyranny...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 02 Jun 12 - 06:55 PM

**rolls eyes**

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy?
From: Amos
Date: 02 Jun 12 - 07:30 PM

It makes you wonder what the nature of a city is, in Michigan, anyway; how does the State acquire the right to wholly bypass and ignore local government? Can it do this to counties, as well? Has anyone studied the fundamentals of these levels?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy?
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jun 12 - 07:44 PM

How can they do it Amos??? It's called "Republicans"... Republicans are going for broke... No compromise... Just their way or the highway... Rig elections... Occupy cities... Bust unions... Wahtever it take to impose their views on everyone else... The American taliban...That's how it happened in Michigan...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy?
From: Crowhugger
Date: 02 Jun 12 - 07:54 PM

I like Amos' question--it would help with understanding the whole picture to understand the mechanism that allows or triggers such an intervention. Ontario municipalities exist solely at the pleasure of the provincial legislature, so the provincial gov't can un-exist any township, town, city, regional municipality etc. at any time for any reason that the legislature deems adequate. But I don't know if there is a mechanism to replace elected mayor & council with an appointed person or body. I would bet there is.

I've only been aware of this sort of takeover here of an occasional hospital or Community Care Access Centre (the entity that manages home care, retirement & nursing home waiting lists, school medical supports etc.). In the 2 or 3 cases I can think of, arrival of such a manager marked the beginning of a swift end to media coverage and letters to the editor. Before the appointment was a significant period of problems or serious complaints brought to light by either honest investigative journalists or "gotcha" journalists--couldn't say for sure which. But once the manager was in place, the media & public reaction here suggests to me that people thought it was a good solution. Or their attention span was all used up.

But that is more and more the case with every issue--potholes, gun violence, pension restructuring, tax policy, etc. Often it does seem to be "gotcha" journalists working hard to prop up dwindling circulation numbers, or self-promotting bloggers, so much so that I honestly don't know where to look these days for actual public discourse on public/civic issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy?
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jun 12 - 08:01 PM

Republican governor and Republican state house is a formula for corruption unlike anything seen since the 1890s in America...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy?
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Jun 12 - 08:09 PM

The only regular media coverage that I get is as a regular viewer of Rachel Maddow, it is an ongoing story which she revisits quite often. I think this clip will explain it all. This one aired back in March and the story has been updated at least once every week or two since then. I LOVE RACHEL!!!!

Rachel tells it all......


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy?
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Jun 12 - 08:22 PM

MORE......

Repubs gone mad in Michigan

Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy?
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jun 12 - 08:26 PM

Like you, I am a Maddow'r, Spawz...

Yup, she's been on top of this going way back... I mean, if folks were told that something like this would occur in the US of A 10 years ago there wouldn't be 1 in a 100 who would believe it...

Believe it, folks... What we are witnessing is the Republicans last push to wipe out the New Deal and turn American into their own Ayn Rand Somalia...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy?
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Jun 12 - 08:27 PM

Rachel on Benton Harbor, Part One

Benton Harbor,pt. 2

Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy?
From: GUEST,Guest from sanity
Date: 02 Jun 12 - 09:23 PM

Somehow you guys missed the point, while stumbling over yourselves to play the blame game, and point fingers...across the division:


Dick Greenhaus: "One of the most shocking (and most radical)state government actions in recent years IMO,is Michigan's appointment of city managers to run the local governments of financially troubled cities. This action allows a single non-elected manager to disenfranchise local voters, overrule elected officials.... "

Democracy we can EASILY afford. However, what you described is NOT Democracy. The same 'model' is used for the federal government's use of appointed 'czars', or regulatory department heads. This is primarily a tactic to avoid making those oppressive and controlling decisions, of which there is NO accountability!

....and the musical version of what I just posted.......

GfS

The same model is in place for our 'Federal Reserve', hence, because they, in conjunction with 'special interests' dictate every notion that they come up with, to further THEIR agendas, while leaving us to pay the bill...WITH INTEREST!...and that includes a lot of 'pet' social programs' and 'social engineering'....to accommodate them...though it is 'sold' to us as either 'patriotic', 'progressive', 'liberal', or 'conservative'!

Leaving us alone, without their meddling, would be a far MORE productive, and profitable way for everyone concerned......unless they FEAR of losing control of their dominance!

Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy?
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jun 12 - 09:30 PM

Absolute tin foil reasoning... No, well beyond it...

(((Sigh)))

Yup... Truly the GUEST from Insanity...

You need help...

Serious...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy?
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Jun 12 - 09:43 PM

More like "Inanity".......................


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 02 Jun 12 - 10:04 PM

Ahhh....Is that the best you could conjure up, because you can't live up to your own double standards???..(MP)
Why is it wrong locally, but OK in the federal government??
Maybe the 'controllers' are NOT either Republicans or Democrats...and why are some void of understanding to consider that FACT?

If the tin foil fits, wear it, I guess.

Any plausible reasons??

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy?
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jun 12 - 10:20 PM

Inanity, insanity??? Mox nix...

Messed up thinkin' no matter...

BTW, reading GfinS is like listening to Bobby Goldboro's "Honey" over and dover and over...

Says that both side are the same but always picks the right wing side???

Go figure???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 02 Jun 12 - 11:06 PM

Well, only you would listen to Bobby Goldboro's 'Honey' over and over again......ya' think that's how you got so numb in the brain???
Even when you walk away from the computer, wouldn't you want to know the answer to that question??..I mean, just to settle it for yourself??
Don't you want to be knowledgeable enough to define who is who, in your 'dedicated' adherence to the political system??..Wouldn't you like to abe able to answer that question, at least to not always have to give third grade insults??...or are all Democrats AND Republicans full of the shit that's been drummed in their heads??
Wouldn't even want to know???

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 02 Jun 12 - 11:46 PM

"One of the most shocking (and most radical)state government actions in recent years IMO,is Michigan's appointment of city managers to run the local governments of financially troubled cities. This action allows a single non-elected manager to disenfranchise local voters, overrule elected officials, void contracts and pensions, and generally act as an unhindered dictator. And yet nobody (except for some liberal cable TV talk shows) seems to even mention it.
    What gives?"

Dick, you have asked one seriously difficult question and made a brilliant observation. First, the brilliant part: it isn't mentioned imo because the majority of daily newspapers are 'right-of-center' owned. If Republicans saw any mileage to be gained from what's going on in Michigan (union busting, disregard of existing contracts and pension agreements, etc) it would be in the mainstream. This way on a relatively micro scale the federal Republicans can say "Hey, that's got nothing to do with us.", but if it 'works'--and how can it not in the short term. If ya wanna see what the USA would be like under another Republican government, take a look at Michigan. I'd never thought of it like that, so thank you.

A similar scenario happened in Alberta back in 1994(?). Government wanted to address the Provincial debt and set out a plan to do just that. In short shrift, public service workers were relieved of 5% of their income. That lasted for a few years. The issue is described here in this link, but it's a dry history (which I have found to be accurate and unbiased). Note I was an ATA member.


http://www.teachers.ab.ca/teaching%20in%20alberta/history%20of%20public%20education/pages/the%20nineties.aspx

Anyway, the dealing with the debt: it was predicated on the assumption that human services and needs were the main cause of the debt. So, with oil then at $17 ($32?) a barrel, Albertan began to pay on its debt. Then oil jumped over the years to $100 a barrel and has probably averaged out near $50 a barrel. Alberta paid off its debt before its self-set deadline and accredited that in/out cash payment to adroit assessment of the initial causes of the debt. They played that like a fine violin and were able to sidestep the issue that oil was three times its value when they budgeted for the debt.

############################################

What I see at play is the business model that failed all over the world, but countries like ours know damned well that a good idea is worth fighting for, even after it is dead and buried, mostly. However, this time it will be enforced by people who should be addressing crime on the street AND crime in the boardroom, but they will no longer do that because crime today has begun to be seen as a subjugation of rich people by poor people. I do believe that a free press is the most important bastion we have to stand between what-is-served-is-for-us, and what is left is for you. The ideological aspect to this is way overlooked. That is a mistake we've made as a society.

############################################

Anyway, I gotta go. With winter solstice coming up and all, I'll be skinning moose for a warm jacket and a roast dinner. And thinking about Michigan. Thanks, Dick

PS I've been so nice because I have seen you in shorts and I figure than any man who's lived his life with legs like yours deserves all the friendly commentary he can get.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Jun 12 - 12:04 AM

Guest,999,....being as you have displayed a bit more intelligence than the average 'so-called liberal' Democrats, in here, who only resort to silly name calling, maybe you could take a stab at answering my question, to Dick, in regards to the same model is OK(?) in the federal government but now screwed up when it's the 'other party' pulling the same shenanigans.

Here's the premise, again:
"Democracy we can EASILY afford. However, what you described is NOT Democracy. The same 'model' is used for the federal government's use of appointed 'czars', or regulatory department heads. This is primarily a tactic to avoid making those oppressive and controlling decisions, of which there is NO accountability!....."
"....without their meddling, would be a far MORE productive, and profitable way for everyone concerned......unless they FEAR of losing control of their dominance!.."

Isn't this a double standard?

Respectfully, Bruce,

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 03 Jun 12 - 12:59 AM

I don't recall that I supported 'czars' at any level of government.At the Federal level, though, I haven't seen 'czars' deposing state governments, or voiding exiting contracts or eliminating pensions or disenfranchising anybody.
I question the concept that an appointed dictator at any level is a better (I'll grant faster) means of dealing with financial problems than an electorate is. And I still would like to know what' with the media's almost-total lack of coverage of the situation.
   And Bruce, I never knew you had such a fixation about my legs. They may not be svelte, but they're what has separated me from the ground for a hell of a long time.

Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jun 12 - 01:23 AM

Best regards, Michael.

It's easy to misread Dick. He contains within himself a knowledge about recorded folk history second to none, and that informs his views of an America he grew to love and cherish. I perceive his thoughts to be those of an honest and outspoken voice, when he remarks. That said, he asked an honest question I think prompted by fundamental questioning of what he holds to be true. His question is heart-wrenching, and I know that because when I ask the same of my own country I get the same feeling.

############################3

I reached the conclusion on the front porch a few minutes ago when I was outside watching the stars through a clouded sky that what we can't afford anymore is rich people.

I have one brilliant though per decade. This may or mayn't be 'er.

Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Jun 12 - 01:24 AM

That was me.

Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Jun 12 - 01:34 AM

It's not quite a fixation; more like a wonderment concerning the genetic insurmountables of cross-breeding stilts and ostriches.

However, important stuff aside, Michigan is the first open slap in the face from an arrogant collection of people, and I fear its a barometric 'social' study, the results from which we could easily find proofs for anything from flat-earth to self-generating electricity. Do a blog called "Views of News" or something like that. You may help in an important manner to bring American pictures back to the faces of Americans.

Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy?
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Jun 12 - 09:34 AM

Very good posts, brucie...

Yes, when you strip off all the various dirty tricks that the Republicans have pulled on the working class, going back to Reagan, under all of them is a desire to make the working class bow down to them and take whatever management wants to give them in the way of crumbs...

This all started with Ronald Reagan using the full force of the federal government to bust the Air Traffic Controllers Union... That was like the Republican Party crossing the Rubicon and they haven't turned back... They have re-niged on pensions, health care, wages and anything that our grandfathers fought so hard to get...

The working class's actual wages (after inflation) have been flat-lined going back to Reagan's first administration... Managements wages have increased over 600% (after inflation) in that same time...

And the worst part about it is that the working class knows there are not too many things, short of violence, to change things around...

Boss Hog certainly has the upper hand... He has his boot on the working class's neck and everyone know it... Kids coming out of college today are taking jobs with pay levels that put them at or near the poverty level...

It's very frustrating...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Jun 12 - 09:43 AM

Dick Greenhaus: "I don't recall that I supported 'czars' at any level of government.At the Federal level, though, I haven't seen 'czars' deposing state governments, or voiding exiting contracts or eliminating pensions or disenfranchising anybody."

Well, we have a plethora of department heads in the federal government, who make decisions that affect us all...and they are not elected, nor does there seem to be any recourse, other than to 'go with it'. I've pointed out Immelt several times, who was granted $500 billion dollars, and appointed 'jobs czar' under the Obama administration..who went to China to start jobs there..with our tax money. Then you have 'Homeland Security', and EPA..jeez, you could just Google them..and see how many we have, in governing positions..and they have great latitude to pretty mush do whatever they wish, within their departments...
..as for: "Can we afford Democracy?"...I don't know, we haven't had one, in a long time!
Perhaps, after reading your last post, and Bruce's, "It's easy to misread Dick.." Maybe you meant 'capitalism'...I'm not sure if that's what you're meaning.

Anyway, Thank you Bruce and Dick...for an intelligent, sober thread!

Best Regards,

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 03 Jun 12 - 12:37 PM

I suspect that actual democracy isn't feasible considering the size of the country and that number of decisions that are required to be made...can you imagine what would be accomplished if there had to be a referendum on every problem that arose? 'Czars' of some sort may well be a practical necessity. But Czars with unlimited power? Last time we had one of those, there was a sizable revolution in Russia.
   Democracy, like Free enterprise, requires limits. The argument facing us is just where those limits should lie.
   And Bruce...I think you're recalling someone else's legs. Mine are more of the tree stump or fireplug style.

Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy?
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Jun 12 - 12:45 PM

We have grown so far away from democracy it isn't worth discussing...

Thomas Jefferson warned US that in order for it to have a chance it would require an informed electorate... We clearly don't have that with the right-leaning half the country that denies science, history, economics, current events, etc., etc...

I know that sounds what they gleefully call elitist, as if knowledge is a bad thing... Fine, I'd rather go down as someone who bothered with education than one who proudly disses it...

Either way, democracy ain't working right now...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Jun 12 - 01:12 PM

Bobert: "Thomas Jefferson warned US that in order for it to have a chance it would require an informed electorate... We clearly don't have that with the right-leaning half the country that denies science, history, economics, current events, etc., etc..."

He also warned us against the very banking system that we have now...let's not be selective, in our quoting from Jefferson....and BTW, your post was somewhat better...but you HAD to slip in the 'right wing' thing..keep in mind, that the 'right wing' and 'left wing' are on the same bird..and neither one is up and flying!
You REALLY NEED to walk out of your intelligence limiting stance about those two. They both are corrupted beyond ANYTHING they were supposed to stand for...just try it...it'll sober you up!...a new high!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy?
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Jun 12 - 01:56 PM

If we want a meaningful democracy, we must start by treating others with respect, and allowing countries to develope their own style of government...without interference.

As I have said before Western "democracy" is only a tool to facilitate manipulation of the masses by the rich and powerful.

How can president Obama talk about democracy at home, when he has increased the number of drones and drone stikes very substancially.
These strikes are in many cases personally authorised by the president and are killing thousands of innocent men women and children.

How many innocents is the death of a "terrorist" worth?
How long before socialists are designated terrorist?
How would the US like it if Russia or china decided to "take out" some Western terrorists in the "national interest"?

If you are interested in worldwide democracy, drone warfare and the idea of "expendable humanity" must be stopped immediately.
Obama and his supporters are exposed as hypocrits if they allow the slaughter to continue.

Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jun 12 - 02:04 PM

The real root of the demise of democracy (by which I mean a form of government that actually honestly and decently represents the people)...at any rate, the real root of the demise of democracy in the USA can be traced to:

1. the fractional reserve lending system which allows the banks to create vast amounts of money out of thin air...thus enriching themselves, causing rampant inflation, and putting the whole society into unpayable levels of debt....and most particularly, the handing over of financial power (money creation) to the Federal Reserve Bank in the early 20th century.

2. the evolution of political parties, which have become self-promoting entities whose only real concern is the pursuit of power, and holding onto that power once they have it. These political parties create permanent psychological divisions between most of the members of the public, and those divisions grow far worse with time, as they are tied to a negative mindset in regards to the "other" party (or parties). This basically divides a nation into mutually incompatible groups of people who hate and despise each other. In the long run this can only lead toward disaster, because as Abe Lincoln said, "a house divided against itself cannot stand". That applies just as well to the existing situation as it did in Lincoln's day.

And we see the results of that becoming ever more exacerbated in the present day USA where demonization of Democrats by Republicans and Republicans by Democrats has reached the level of becoming a national mental illness...and has made rational political discussion between the two more or less impossible for a lot of people. You can't have a rational discussion with someone you regard as "evil" and for whom you have no respect.

Where does such a situation end? It ends in a civil war...or in the imposition of some sort of severe authoritarian rule from above to keep the lid on the pot, so to speak. Either way, it ends in the destruction of what could be termed "freedom" or "democracy".

Freedom is established through unity...through joining together on the many things we share in common, which far outweigh the things that divide us. Unity is achieved through mutual respect. I see very little mutual respect being shown nowadays, either in the political arena...or on this forum.

And that's why I don't participate much in the political threads anymore, because it just depresses me and makes me feel hopeless.

And I'd rather not be depressed, you see. Why should I add to the already existing challenges of my life in that fashion? How could it possibly help?

And how does it help you? (the tiny handful of people on Mudcat who fight with each other every day on the political threads...while most people here can't be bothered to) It doesn't really help you at all. That's clear. But you can't let go of it, can you?

Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 03 Jun 12 - 04:11 PM

I'm rather glad you transatlantics have met up with Gutless Loony, he normally only haunts Brit threads where the assumptions are rather different.

Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy?
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Jun 12 - 04:38 PM

Who in God's green Earth is defending the banking system, GfinS??? Where do you even come up with this mythology??? You got a dart board with BIG LIES on it and Chongz throwing darts blindfolded in the general direction of it???

Sheesh...

Defending the purpose of the Federal Reserve and defending the crimes that rich people do with other people's money are worlds apart... Dodd-Frank is a step in the right, make that correct direction!!!

If we taxpayers are on the hook, thru FDIC for our fellow citizens deposits then I don't want that money used for gambling...

Obama has it half right in regulating the big boys and they hate it... You Tea Party hates it... Romney hates it... Seems that the righties are arguing for the same deregulations that caused the near collapse in '08...

Now if Congress would just add the other half of the regs that Obama couldn't get passed in Dodd-Frank, we'll have some sanity...

Sorry, I forgot that you don't actually do sanity...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy?
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Jun 12 - 04:58 PM

Said from the heart Little Hawk.
I can disagree with not a word,

When I get dejected by what I see as willful stupidity and self centred attitudes, I always go back even further than Lincoln....to the fourteenth century. This guy certainly knew the score,

The People

By Tommaso Campanella

(Italian philosopher, 1568–1639. Translation by John Addington Symonds)

THE PEOPLE is a beast of muddy brain
That knows not its own strength, and therefore stands
Loaded with wood and stone; the powerless hands
Of a mere child guide it with bit and rein;
One kick would be enough to break the chain,         5
But the beast fears, and what the child demands
It does; nor its own terror understands,
Confused and stupefied by bugbears vain.
Most wonderful! With its own hand it ties
And gags itself—gives itself death and war         10
For pence doled out by kings from its own store.
Its own are all things between earth and heaven;
But this it knows not; and if one arise
To tell this truth, it kills him unforgiven.

Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 03 Jun 12 - 07:42 PM

If we don't have democracy in the U.S. our country will pay a terrible price by internal revolution and the disrespect from the rest of the world. Fascism will not prevail in the U.S.
It's not in the American "DNA".

Romney and Obama better take that into account.

America's business is not business but democracy built into our Constitution.

Our Deist Founding Fathers warned us about our democracy and as Ben Franklin has said, "It's great and I hope we can keep it."

This July Fourth, we ought to be thinking about this.

Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 03 Jun 12 - 07:47 PM

"Isn't this a time, a time to try the souls of man"............from Tom Paine, Lee Hays and Walter Lowenfels.

BTW Peter, Paul and Mary did not write this song as displayed on the Net.
The Weavers were the first to sing it.

Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Jun 12 - 10:52 PM

I'm glad this thread has got back to being a serious thread. normally, I guess I'd counter Bobert who fires off with ridiculous insults. I'm going to hold back this time, so the thread doesn't turn into a snipe-fest. maybe someone else can explain to them, about why the federal Reserve has gotten out of hand...and that they are private bankers etc. etc.

..and one correction goes to Little Hawk, whose post I thought was brilliant. You attributed the quote, "A house divided against itself cannot stand" to Abraham Lincoln..he was quoting Jesus Christ, on that one.

Regards to all,

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 04 Jun 12 - 12:46 AM

To return to the specif point:



Gov. Rick Snyder put Louis Schimmel in charge of Pontiac last September, invoking Public Act 4, a recent law that lets the governor name appointees to take over financially troubled cities and enact drastic austerity measures. Under the law, passed last March, these emergency managers can nullify labor contracts, privatize public services, sell off city property, and even dismiss elected officials.

Schimmel got to work quickly, firing the city clerk, city attorney, and director of public works and outsourcing several city departments. City fire fighters were told that they would be fired if their department was not absorbed by Waterford Township's. Schimmel has proposed putting nearly every city property up for sale, including city hall, the police station, fire stations, water-pumping stations, the library, the golf course, and two cemeteries.
Williams (City Councilman) and his six colleagues on city council have been stripped of their salary and official powers. "

Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jun 12 - 04:24 AM

I am slightly reminded of Thatcher's destruction of the GLC primarily because it afforded a powerbase that might threaten her.

I would however ask - to whom is the expression "Gutless Loony" intended to refer?

Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Jun 12 - 09:12 AM

could this be a clue?...along with...
This

More on this..if you care.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy?
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Jun 12 - 09:14 AM

Democracy???

Ask the African American Bill Internicola who lives in Florida about it... Yup, he has been stripped of his voting rights... BTW he is 91 years old, fought in WW II and earned a Bronze Star for his heroics in the Battle of the Bulge...

This ain't democracy, folks... This is Banana Republic pseudo-democracy...

There ain't enough voter fraud to warrant taking the votes away from so many people... I mean, 10 or so cases warrants taking away voting rights for upwards of a million people??? Give me a break... This is like expelling the entire student body 'cause one kid got caught smoking in the boys room...

Sheesh???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Jun 12 - 09:56 AM

Let's not divert the thread, into this stuff, Bobert. We all have heard of your panting about the 'civil rights' thing with your racial overtones...Time to get caught up to date. Okay?

BTW, you still haven't responded to my two earlier posts, because it requires you to think outside your 'comfort zone box'!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy?
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Jun 12 - 09:59 AM

BTW, when I moved from Wes Ginny back to Va'ginny I had to get a Va. drivers license... Even though I had my original birth certifiacte and a copy of "certificate of live birth" from Washington, D.C, they required a "certified birth certificate"...

Were do you get them??? Well, seems there was one, and only one, private company that issued them... Cost; $35... That pissed me off so I wrote the governor who made a few phone calls and I got me license without have to be fleeced outta $35...

This kinda shit is what Republicans are doing in order for older black folks who were born at home and don't drive to ***continue*** to have the right to vote...

Disgusting and un-American...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Can we afford Democracy?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Jun 12 - 12:05 AM

Bobert: "This kinda shit is what Republicans are doing in order for older black folks who were born at home and don't drive to ***continue*** to have the right to vote..."

I thought you were 'white'....so your racist accusation, though emotionally charge, is inaccurately applied...but that don't matter to you....does it???

....but it sounded like you really care....(that's show business!!)

GfS