BS: Mobile + skateboard: legal or not?

Subject: BS: Mobile + skateboard: legal or not?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Jul 12 - 12:16 PM

Everyone knows it is illegal to talk or text on a mobile phone while driving or cycling. This morning I drove past a boy, estimate early-teens, skateboarding along a narrow pavement beside a busy road, leading a large dog in his left hand and talking on a mobile in his right. Suppose he had lost control and fallen into path of traffic while thus distracted.

Serious question, perhaps of interest to some of lawyers among us ~~ Was he breaking any law?

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile + skateboard: legal or not?
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Jul 12 - 12:27 PM

Suppose he had lost control and fallen into path of traffic while thus distracted.

Then we'd be free of another congenital idiot. Its past time we stopped short-circuiting natural selection.

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile + skateboard: legal or not?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Jul 12 - 01:09 PM

I must say, Mike, that I incline toward Greg's viewpoint.

I can't imagine what legal statute he might be infringing, since suicide has been removed from that category.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile + skateboard: legal or not?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Jul 12 - 01:12 PM

An interesting point!!

Does the law regarding mobile phone use apply to pedal cyclists on public roads??

I rather think it should.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile + skateboard: legal or not?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 01 Jul 12 - 01:13 PM

Absolutely, and this would apply to the baby buggy pushing, Croydon Facelifted, fat and black leggings wearing slappers as well!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile + skateboard: legal or not?
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Jul 12 - 01:43 PM

I hardly think the ban should be applied to walking-speed locomotion. Now, a baby buggy being propelled at high speed on a mountain trail- well, that is somewhat different.

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile + skateboard: legal or not?
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Jul 12 - 02:00 PM

This has been floating around the internet for a few days at least. It tells its own story.

CLICKY

The texting pad was still in the driver's hand. (His head was in the back seat.)

Don Firth

P. S. While traveling in my electric wheelchair down the sidewalks of a nearby business district, I have to be alert at all times and ready to yell at someone, otherwise, they would wind up in my lap. Either texting or with a cell phone grafted to the side of their head, they seem to have no awareness of their surrounding area. I am really looking forward to the time when one of them walks, forehead first, into one of the metal light poles. They make such a satisfyingly mellifluos "BONNNNG!!"

I get sworn at by kids on skateboards (with their pants at half-mast) when I use the curb ramps to cross streets at intersections because they apparently think the city put the ramps in for their benefit.

I saw one skateboarder knock over an elderly woman just as she was coming out of a shop. By the time Medic One got there, the kid was long gone.

And I've seen one helluva lot of near misses.

Morons!!

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile + skateboard: legal or not?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Jul 12 - 04:50 PM

Wow!! The accident was so powerful that it put a back seat in a corvette? :-p

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile + skateboard: legal or not?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 01 Jul 12 - 07:07 PM

It depends on whether a skateboard is legally considered a mode of transportation. If so, then skaters are subject to the same laws as motorists. If not, they're only subject to the laws governing pedestrians. If it's legal to do it while walking, it's legal to do it while skating. That doesn't mean it's prudent, just that it's not illegal.

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile + skateboard: legal or not?
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Jul 12 - 07:15 PM

Metaphorically speaking, Jack.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile + skateboard: legal or not?
From: gnu
Date: 01 Jul 12 - 07:20 PM

The idiots can't even STAND STILL when they are on the cell! One stunned twit backed up quickly today whilst looking for an item on the shelves at the grocery and talking on the phone and knocked Mum's (85, almost blind) grocery cart to one side and she lost her balance and nearly fell. He apologized. I wanted to say something nasty but Mum wouldn't have been pleased. Seriously?... they can't even stand still?

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile + skateboard: legal or not?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 01 Jul 12 - 07:53 PM

While driving along a national route near Galway in the West of Ireland recently, I spotted an old lady in an electric wheelchair, zipping along the hard shoulder - chatting away on her mobile phone! It was hard to know whether to salute her courage - or report her to the police! ;>)>

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile + skateboard: legal or not?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 03:36 AM

Can't see any mention of skateboards at all in The Highway Code (UK) and as such, the comment about being legally pedestrians is probably as good as you will get.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile + skateboard: legal or not?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 03:43 AM

Strange? I thought I had put a Blue Clicky link in that posting.
Highway Code (UK).
The content does change, and all UK drivers should check it to keep up to date with new signs and rules.
You can also get daily reminders by e-mail or follow them on Twitter.
Quack!
GtD.

---------------- Minor error in HTML invalidated original link... Mudelf.-------------------------------

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile + skateboard: legal or not?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 03:58 AM

Thanks, Geoff; but somewhat question-begging, perhaps; in that you gave us the Code's rules for pedestrians, while surely the point at issue is whether a skateboarder is a pedestrian, or the user of a wheeled vehicle? BWL did not, as I read his post, suggest that skateboarders were legally pedestrians, but that it was a matter for question. Which was of course my original point.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile + skateboard: legal or not?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 04:37 AM

The link was supposed to be main index page for Highway Code - I expect I accidentally pasted a different web link.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile + skateboard: legal or not?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 08:35 AM

I think it's only illegal if the kid is skateboarding, texting, listening to his iPod and getting a tattoo all at the same time.

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile + skateboard: legal or not?
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 10:18 AM

Slight thread creep: I've noted elsewhere in the past that in Greece it seems compulsory for drivers to have their mobile in one hand, leaving the other free for waving to friends, holding their cigarette or takeaway frappe, crossing themselves when passing church or cemetary, or, occasionally, the steering wheel.
As well as skateboarders, I find adult cyclists now claim the pavements as their own (compounded in my area where there are "shared" pavements/cycle lanes), and seldom have lights at night or bells during the day. If they come from behind on my deaf side I often have to take evasive action when walking.

RtS

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile + skateboard: legal or not?
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 10:33 AM

Several cyclists have nearly come to grief approaching me on the canal towpath from behind. It's narrow and very wet by the side, adn too deep for me to reach in and pull you out so remember to use your bell.

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile + skateboard: legal or not?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 02:20 PM

Have just Googled this and found a BBC article from 2006, which states that 'unpowered scooters and skateboards' cannot legally be used on footpaths or pavements. But it adds that the Police deem it 'difficult to enforce' Why? You just stop the offender and charge him/her. So presumably, even without his mobile phone, this youngster was technically breaking the law. The trouble is that the Police are too lenient and decline to act when such behaviour occurs. Result: people do just what they please. My friend's 86 yr old mum was knocked flying by a woman positively whizzing along in Sainsbury's on a mobility scooter. She broke her arm, but the culprit zoomed off and was never identified. Doesn't this all boil down to consideration for others?

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile + skateboard: legal or not?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 03:21 PM

And the use of the Pavement (Sidewalk in USA) by cyclists with or without Mobile phones is something else the police dont seem to be concerned with .

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile + skateboard: legal or not?
From: olddude
Date: 02 Jul 12 - 08:00 PM

Well you can get a DWI for drunk driving a bicycle but I doubt they consider a skateboard a vehicle

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile + skateboard: legal or not?
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 04:46 AM

"difficult to enforce" means: prowl cars can't be arsed/too busy, beat constables non-existent, Community wardens (in our area) too overweight to catch anyone young & fit, and all put off by paperwork and court time without expectation of effective sentence.
IMNSHO

RtS

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile + skateboard: legal or not?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 06:47 AM

I suspect that drivers kill, maim and otherwise injure far more people than all the skateboarders, cyclists, buggy pusher, wheelchair users and mobility scooter users put together could ever hope to. That's not to say people shouldn't have an awareness of those around them, but let's have some perspective, please! As a (responsible) cyclist, I take my life in my hands every time I hit the streets. That's something the average driver could never understand, judging from how many of them act like I'm invisible....

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile + skateboard: legal or not?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 10:21 AM

Speel Cringe, while I have every respect and sympathy for you on your bike, as a driver I come across quite a few cyclists in the dark without lights. In our rural county, with no street lighting, that's incredibly foolhardy and dangerous. A couple of years ago, a young chap was cycling on a main 'A' road near us at night, no lights, and a friend's son knocked him down and ran over his head. He died instantly and the poor kid who 'did' it was totally traumatised. The cyclist was a known drug addict who was on his way to a dealer. He was riding almost in the middle of the road. A very tragic event for all concerned. If I'm passed on the pavement by someone on a bike I tend to request they go onto the road as they should. But I've had an earful of abuse many a time!

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile + skateboard: legal or not?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 10:24 AM

I am also an experienced responsible [and back in my politicised student days, somewhat militant] cyclist.
I still insist on my right to cycle on roads, claiming my place in traffic
amongst all the fuckwit boy racers
and other miscellaneous potentially lethal arrogant aggressive motorised arseholes;

and I make sure I am aware & assertive enough to survive every ride and get home safely.

I am also sick of grown men cycling fast on pavements and risking collision with pedestrians;
even when the road is relatively empty of traffic, or vehicles are slow moving.

They are complete wankers and a disgrace to cycling.

Children riding on pavements these days, is of course understandable and acceptable,
providing they could be better instructed and supervised by school or parents...


Do schools still do 'Cycling Proficiency' courses and testing
as we received back in the late 60's ???

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile + skateboard: legal or not?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 10:27 AM

Yes, our local village school does a lot of these courses for the children, it's excellent.
Spleen Cringe, sorry I mispelt your name!

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile + skateboard: legal or not?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 06:20 PM

Two things to think about with respect to pedestrians, bicycles, skateboarders and motorcycles - the weaker parties.

1. Most drivers have it drilled into their heads for years to drive defensively - to watch out for the bad driver who is going to hurt them. In time they become inured to people that they could hurt - the weaker parties,

People need to be more aware of this kind of danger.

2. It's all very well to say that drivers should watch out. but the bikes, etc need to act rational. For example, riding your bike through the bar district at 11 pm with no lights while wearing dark clothes is insane. (Saw that a couple months ago.) No helmet of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile + skateboard: legal or not?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 06:29 PM

Thread drift, but I've always wanted to be able to skateboard! As a child I was dead keen on all those sorts of things, bogie carts, roller skates, pogo sticks, scooters, hula hoops, spacehoppers etc. But skateboards hadn't been invented, and now it'd be dangerous for me to try,as I'm far too old and a bit frail. Shame really!

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile + skateboard: legal or not?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 06:37 PM

""That's something the average driver could never understand, judging from how many of them act like I'm invisible....""

Every driver is also a pedestrian, and many have been or still are cyclists too.

And for every cyclist who has been scared rigid by a bad driver, there are ten pedestrians (mostly, but not all, elderly) who have been terrorised by cyclists on the Pavements (sidewalks in the US).

Moving around in and out of towns in England, it is the rule, rather than the exception, to see cyclists ignore red lights and controlled crossings (zebra, Panda and Pelican), ride at breakneck speed on crowded footpaths and travel in pitch darkness without lights and dressed in black (even on country lanes on moonless nights).

Then they whine about not being noticed by motorists.

They have no insurance, they pay little or nothing towards the cost of the roads and footpaths they use, and they are virtually immune to the consequences of any damage they cause (to humans or property), and they DO cause damage and injury to both.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile + skateboard: legal or not?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 09:42 PM

Well you can get a DWI for drunk driving a bicycle but I doubt they consider a skateboard a vehicle ...

There have also been several publicised reports of persons convicted for drunk driving on a lawnmower, so it would seem that any legal or customary definition of "vehicle" is sort of a "maybe" in the case of almost anything that moves. (In my area, movement of a "farm implement" on public roads is legal, but only within specific distances of land the operator legally "farms.")

"Reckless Endangerment" is hard to apply in criminal cases, without an underlying specific violation of laws, but can be a significant factor when a Civil Suit for damages is filed - if damage has occured.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile + skateboard: legal or not?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Jul 12 - 09:55 PM

It's my not unreasonable contention that most of the irresponsible arsehole adult male cyclists
behave exactly the same but potentially far more dangerously
when let lose on the roads driving fast motor vehicles...???

In this respect sensible cyclists and motorists, and vulnerable pedestrians would surely be united against a common enemy.

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile + skateboard: legal or not?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 04 Jul 12 - 12:14 PM

What PFR said! I'm convinced most dodgy cyclists are just wannabee dodgy drivers.

Eliza (I quite like the name Speel Cringe, by the way!), I agree that there are some cyclists who shouldn't be allowed out. Cyclists are like motorists in that respect: the good, the bad and the ugly. I just think most of us tend to be quite careful.

Now to Don T!

"And for every cyclist who has been scared rigid by a bad driver, there are ten pedestrians (mostly, but not all, elderly) who have been terrorised by cyclists on the Pavements"

I'm not talking about being scared rigid, I'm talking about being killed or injured. I don't think there is a scrap of evidence for your statistics. This is what RoSPA says about deaths and injuries amongst cyclists, and they note that cycling injuries tend to be under reported. By comparison, in the EIGHT YEARS from 2001-2009 the number of pedestrians killed by cycles was 18, and seriously injured by cycles was 434. In the same period 3,495 pedestrians were killed and 46,245 seriously injured by cars (Source: Department for Transport).

Fianlly some stats from CTC

- In 2010, 99% of killed or seriously injured (KSI) pedestrians in urban areas – i.e. where pedestrians are most likely to be – were the result of a collision with a motor vehicle.
- Out of the 11,716 car/pedal cycles collisions in Britain in 2010, no car occupants died.
- In 2010, cyclists and pedestrians accounted for about 28% of all road fatalities (405 pedestrians and 111 cyclists out of the 1,850 road fatalities altogether).
- About 2% of all trips are made by cycle as the 'main mode'4, but cyclists accounted for about 6% of fatalities and 12% of serious injuries in 2010.

"Moving around in and out of towns in England, it is the rule, rather than the exception, to see cyclists ignore red lights and controlled crossings (zebra, Panda and Pelican), ride at breakneck speed on crowded footpaths and travel in pitch darkness without lights and dressed in black (even on country lanes on moonless nights).

Again, where is your evidence? It's all anecodotal. I could give you stories about cyclists who would rather put themselves in danger than endangering a pedestrian and would not dream of ignoring lights or not using lights. And I suspect I know rather more cyclist than you do.

The CTC, whilst not condoning bad behaviour from a minority of cyclists have this sensible comment to make:

"To gain widespread respect from cyclists, road traffic rules and their enforcement need to protect and not undermine) cyclists' safety. Cyclists should not be placed in situations where they feel they must choose between acting legally and protecting their own safety (e.g. riding on a footway to avoid a lorry; moving safely into open space at signalised junctions rather than waiting for the following traffic to accelerate into that junction when the lights turn green). In the interests of all road users, therefore, it is important to consider the reasons behind any offending behaviour and to address them. In the case of cyclists, these can include the fear of onroad riding, a lack of cycle training, parental or other instruction, poor infrastructure, unhelpful traffic regulations etc. Whilst CTC cannot condone law-breaking, much could be done to amend laws and regulations that endanger cyclists unnecessarily (e.g. one-way systems or major junctions that fail to address cyclists' needs). Equally, enforcement and the way it is applied should take into account the reasons behind the offending behaviour."

"Then they whine about not being noticed by motorists."

Look at the stats and you'll see we have good reason to "whine"!

"They have no insurance, they pay little or nothing towards the cost of the roads and footpaths they use, and they are virtually immune to the consequences of any damage they cause (to humans or property), and they DO cause damage and injury to both."

Again, look at the stats. And consider the carbon footprint left by a cyclist as opposed to a motorist.

But Don's post is full of just the sort of ill-informed beliefs we're up against. Hope this post helps you see sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile + skateboard: legal or not?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 04 Jul 12 - 01:15 PM

"They pay little or nothing towards the cost of the roads and footpaths they use"

Cyclists are council tax payers too! And many also drive and therefore pay road tax. I suspect the wear and tear on the road infrastructure from cyclists compared with drivers is pretty minimal anyway.

"Moving around in and out of towns in England, it is the rule, rather than the exception, to see cyclists ignore red lights and controlled crossings (zebra, Panda and Pelican), ride at breakneck speed on crowded footpaths and travel in pitch darkness without lights and dressed in black (even on country lanes on moonless nights).

Without wanting to get all gestalt on yo' ass, you tend to see what you want to see (there's even evidence for this if you want me to find and cite sources). This means you'll remember all the times you see someone cycling badly and probably not even notice all the cyclists who are cycling responsibly. I know this because I do it too: I've never said to whoever I'm with, "look at that cyclist! He's on the road, wearing fluorescent clothing and waiting at the lights!"

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile + skateboard: legal or not?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 04 Jul 12 - 01:16 PM

All this would be solved if only we had proper cycle tracks everywhere, especially on the main highways. I believe Holland has them, and folk there cycle far more than we do here in UK. I expect rollerskaters and skateboarders could use them too. I might even have a go myself, with a cushion tied to my rear end in case of a mishap.

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile + skateboard: legal or not?
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Jul 12 - 02:49 PM

Okay, I'm all in favor of cyclists. Those equipped with brains or an instinct for self-preservation or both, that is. The advantages of using a bicycle for transportation rather than a CO₂-belching automobile are legion.

Portland, Oregon, 175 miles south of Seattle, where I live, has a city sponsored program involving placing bicycle racks all over the city in which there are a number of bicycles, painted yellow. The idea is that a person can take one of these bicycles, pedal to their destination, and leave the bicycle in the nearest bike rack for someone else to use. It makes it easy for many people to get around the city without having to use a gasoline-consuming, air polluting automobile. The program, as I understand it, is quite popular, and there are mutterings here in Seattle of instituting a similar program. The only problem here is that Seattle is considerably more hilly that Portland is, but it should work well here in certain areas of the city.

One BIG problem, however:   a distressingly large number of times, I have sat at the wheel of my automobile (Toyota Corolla) at a stop light, then, when the light turned green and I started moving across the intersection before the driver behind me hits his horn, some Kamikaze on a bicycle, hell-bent on suicide, would shoot across my bow and I'd have to romp on the binders to keep from creaming him - and risk getting tail-gated.

Usually it's guys - apparently with more testosterone than brains. Women tend to be more intelligent in this regard.

The way Seattle's traffic lights are set up, when a light changes, it shifts from green to amber and sits there for several seconds before it goes to red, so the cyclist has plenty of warning. But it's mind-boggling the number of times a cyclist will shoot a red light, right in front of a bunch of cars that are accelerating into the intersection.

Darwin in action? Nature's way of weeding the stoopud ones out of the gene pool?

Don Firth

P. S. Perhaps the most unreliable component of a bicycle is the nut that holds the handlebars?

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile + skateboard: legal or not?
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Jul 12 - 02:55 PM

And unless I have a regiment of witnesses, if a cyclist tries to shoot the light in front of me and I do knock him on his keister, it's, ipso facto, my fault!!

Sumpin's wrong somewhere!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile + skateboard: legal or not?
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Jul 12 - 03:39 PM

Per punkfolkrocker: "miscellaneous potentially lethal arrogant aggressive motorised arseholes"

However, lets not forget the potentially lethal arrogant aggressive bicycle arseholes, who hog the middle of the lane on 2 lane roads when there is a perfevctly good 4 foot shoulder/bicycle lane to accommodate them, without causing motorists to either run them down or have a head-on collision with a large truck coing the other way.

"Share the road" doesn't mean that the cyclists can legally behave like jackasses.

And its way past time that law enforcement started issuing tickets to cyclists who violate the law.

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile + skateboard: legal or not?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 12:38 PM

The "arrogant aggressive bicycle arseholes, who hog the middle of the lane on 2 lane roads when there is a perfevctly good 4 foot shoulder/bicycle lane to accommodate them" are generally safer there than on the 4 foot shoulder(which generally is 4 foot wide in some places and non-existant in others), because motorists frequently drift onto the shoulder, and because they turn on to cross streets without looking, let alone yielding to the cyclist.

The road that runs by here has a wonderful cycling lane on each side, replete with signs and special lane markings. There are also two "white bike" memorials to cyclists who were killed while using those lanes.

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile + skateboard: legal or not?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 01:11 PM

Agree with Stim & Spleen above. I'd rather see an "agressive" (confident? safe?) cyclist occupying the centre of the lane (as he is entitled to do) than one being driven onto the dangerous ruts and holes often littering the side of the road, by a car user who believes that by virtue of the loud noise and pollution they create, that they own the road.

As a pedestrian who has been used to village life (with little or no pavement on many lanes) being progressively dominated by speeding commuters -who in fact never so much as set foot in the village beyond their double garage doors- I also would contend that most motorists are in fact barely ever pedestrians.

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile + skateboard: legal or not?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 05 Jul 12 - 01:19 PM

....not that I'm anti-car - or indeed motorbike - by any means. I love it when you get conventions of classic car users driving through. I can enjoy high speed motorbikes too, in the right context. But too many motorists -particularly commuters- are too arrogant, ignorant of the needs of others, and road-greedy by far!