BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?

Subject: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 31 Jul 12 - 08:37 AM

Some British sportsmen have been criticised for not joining in the playing of the national anthem.
Well, I don't believe in god, and I don't believe in the queen, and so I never join in with "God save the Queen".
I've checked the lyrics of a number of anthems and I'm suprised that quite a few make reference to god ( The USA does, of course).
I'm impressed that Sweden makes no reference to God or the monarch!
It's nice to see that Australia doesn't mention god or the queen.
Canada doesn't mention the queen but does mention god (that's what comes of existing next to the USA!)

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Jul 12 - 09:10 AM

Some British sportsmen have been criticised for not joining in the playing of the national anthem.

I must be fair, I haven't seen any athlete joining in the playing of the anthems.
Should they be using discusses as cymbale, or playing a drum solo on the podium?

As for the comment: I don't believe in the queen, I can confirm she exists, I have seen her in real life. Of course, you may not accept my assurances, but your unbelief seems to make you the ultimate sceptic!

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: Wesley S
Date: 31 Jul 12 - 09:15 AM

"I've checked the lyrics of a number of anthems and I'm suprised that quite a few make reference to god ( The USA does, of course)."


Actually not:


Oh, say can you see by the dawn's early light
What so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming?
Whose broad stripes and bright stars thru the perilous fight,
O'er the ramparts we watched were so gallantly streaming?
And the rocket's red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there.
Oh, say does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 31 Jul 12 - 09:35 AM

Didn't see the men's game but as far as the women's was concerned the two Scottish player's stood in line as the anthem was played. They offered no direspect. As to whether one actually sings along to the anthem or not is surely a personal choice? There are various reasons why one might not wish to. It's a non story whipped up by the Daily Mail during one of its let's have a go at the Scots etc rants. Its edition in Scotland had Kim Little on the first page and it basically gave the entire page 4 to hounding her family etc. More like North Korea every day. Thou wilt comply with our idea of what British is etc etc. One other thing mentioned on the same page was the fact that the Cornish flag was banned from the stadium. Any on show will be confiscated. The paper made no comment so presumably saw nothing wrong with the measure. A clear attack on the identity of a corner of England and Britain!

Keeping up its sense of good journalism and fair play one female columnist yesterday bemoaned the fact that in the women's road race the Briitsh cyclist had a heroic race but ended up coming in second to a "bitch from Holland". Doesn't one just love the British press. I know it was meant to be funny but.....

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 31 Jul 12 - 10:02 AM

Wesley S, well, actually yes!
Like the Brits you may only know the first part of the anthem but the following occurs if you keep singing!

"And this be our motto: "In God is our trust":"

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: Megan L
Date: 31 Jul 12 - 10:16 AM

perhaps any Scots who didn't sing knew the contents of verse six

Lord grant that Marshal Wade
May by thy mighty aid
Victory bring
May he sedition hush
And like a torrent rush
Rebellious Scots to crush
God save the King

So much for nations united

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Jul 12 - 10:34 AM

It was written in a different time, when times were very different.
That verse is irrelevant today, and it's never sung anyway.
Some of you people need to get a friggin' life, get over your precious selves, get into the real world and find something important to bitch and piss about.

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Jul 12 - 10:36 AM

And the British Olympic Committee decided to stick to verses 1&3 because verse 2 was considered against the olympic ideals:

O Lord our God arise,
Scatter her enemies
And make them fall;
Confound their politics,
Frustrate their knavish tricks,
On Thee our hopes we fix,
God save us all!

Please note, the penultimate line is not "and cut off all their dicks"
I must have learnt the wrong version in junior school.

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: Wesley S
Date: 31 Jul 12 - 10:41 AM

Tunesmith. Actually no. What you refer to is the poem that Francis Scott Key wrote. Our national anthem only uses the first verse. The last verse is NOT part of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 31 Jul 12 - 11:13 AM

Well, Wesley, the following would seem to make it clear that your congress adopted multiple verses.

http://www.flagsbay.com/flag/2008/03/11/protocols-and-the-national-anthem/

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 31 Jul 12 - 11:53 AM

"perhaps any Scots who didn't sing knew the contents of verse six"

It is a verse that is never sung but you are right some Scots will point to that verse as being anti-Scottish and give that as a reason for not singing. Others may not want to sing the British national anthem because politically they are nationalists. Some others may not want to sing it because they are not monarchists. Then there is the more petty reason. Because the English national teams continue to use the British national anthem as their own then some Scots simply associate it as the English anthem. Incorrectly fair enough - but some do! Then there are the darker reasons which maybe many people in England wouldn't grasp. The British national anthem is associated with one half of the sectarian divide by some in Scotland. It may irritate many completely innocent British unionists here but the fact is that some people view both GSTQ and the Irish natioanl anthem as sectarian songs which they want no truck with. The sad fact is that if you hear someone singing GSTQ in Scotland it could be quickly followed by Hang The Pope From An Orange Rope. Britain is a diverse country and what is regarded as a completely innocent song in one part is not necessarily regarded the same way in other parts.

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: ranger1
Date: 31 Jul 12 - 11:54 AM

Tunesmith, why are you stirring the shit? Just asking.

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: catspaw49
Date: 31 Jul 12 - 12:33 PM

Well let me make this fuckin' clear......I don't give two shits about the SSB as it really speaks very little to what this country could be and yet sadly still speaks volumes about what it is after all these years. Why worry about any references to gods and let's hear about all the anthems that refer instead to war! I know of only one.

I'd much prefer Woody's TLIYL or even better the Emma Lazarus poem on the Statue of Liberty set to music, both of which proclaim what the best of this country could be.

I don't sing it and I don't salute or face the flag.......But I do have a love/hate relationship with my country and that alone makes me a patriot.


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 31 Jul 12 - 12:38 PM

Well, I am surprised that some people are getting hot under the collar about certain sportspersons not getting involved in the national anthem.
I would guess that at least a third of the UK would love to see the back of the monarchy.
Bearing that in mind, probably four players in every football team would be anti-royals and would not be willing to join in singing - or showing enthusiasm - for "God Save the Queen".
Clearly we need a new national anthem devoid of god and the queen!

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 31 Jul 12 - 12:51 PM

I would guess that at least a third of the UK would love to see the back of the monarchy

Yes, you're clearly guessing - the figure's about 20%

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 31 Jul 12 - 01:12 PM

Well, 20% is clearly someones guess! ( no government body has ever asked my opinion!)
But, using that figure, over 100 UK Olympic competitors will not relate to "God Save the Queen".
Time for a change of anthem!

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 31 Jul 12 - 01:50 PM

Well, 20% is clearly someones guess!

No it's not, it's the result of recent Mori and ICM polls.

So, what about the majority who don't want it changed?

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 31 Jul 12 - 02:36 PM

Maybe 'God Save the Queen' should be reserved for occasions involving a member of the royal family. On other occasions I would suggest 'Rule Britannia' - it is triumphant, it includes the whole of Great Britain, and it could be stretched to include Northern Ireland. I have noticed on several occasions that when a group of British people find themselves in a situation where they feel the need to sing something proud or defiant, this is what they choose.

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 31 Jul 12 - 03:04 PM

Well 80% might want to keep the monarchy but do they want to keep "God Save the Queen".
Have we had a poll on that?
So, we have 20% - at least - who don't want "God Save the Queen", and a fair number of the 80% who would prefer Rule Britania, Land of Hope and Glory, or whatever.
The present anthem is clearly divisive. It's time for a change!

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: catspaw49
Date: 31 Jul 12 - 03:14 PM

No problem.....When E2 gives it up ....LOL....you can go with saving the King instead!!!!!


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 31 Jul 12 - 03:21 PM

I think the answer is fairly simple, every follower of sport in the UK associates GSTQ with the English national anthem.

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 31 Jul 12 - 04:12 PM

So the Scots and Welsh don't like it!
Daley Thompson - Britain's greatest ever athlete - is English, and we're pretty sure what he thinks about it!( i.e. he doesn't like it.)
It's a disaster!
Get rid of it before there is some really embarrasing - for the country - protest against it

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 31 Jul 12 - 05:12 PM

"over 100 UK Olympic competitors will not relate to "God Save the Queen"."

Absolutely. Over 100 would not relate to it for that particular reason. There could well be other reasons too. Let's be honest had an english player not sung the anthem then no one would have bothered or even mentioned it. It is the usual Scot baiting. When world cups are on some members of the media obsess over whether Scots will be supporting England or not. Now we're in the same team it is whether we sing the anthem or not :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Jul 12 - 05:56 PM

Just another stupid, shit-stirring thread with much ado about nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 31 Jul 12 - 06:04 PM

"So, what about the majority who don't want it changed?"

Though to be fair no-one is being berated for singing it. It is the other way around. Fatima Whitbread suggested that anyone not prepsred to sing it is not proud of Britain and should not be representing Britain at the Olympics. One example of someone not realising that not everyone shares her narrow vision of what it means to be British. Also for example should Scottish nationalists be barred for competing in the Olympics? They don't exactly qualify to compete for anyone else!

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 31 Jul 12 - 08:02 PM

""Well, 20% is clearly someones guess! ( no government body has ever asked my opinion!)
But, using that figure, over 100 UK Olympic competitors will not relate to "God Save the Queen".
Time for a change of anthem!""

As an anti monarchist, I suppose you would favour a democratic republic, Tunesmith.

Right?

So why are you suggesting that changes be made, based upon the will of a 20% minority, and against the wishes of the 80%.

Hardly democratic!! In fact suggestive of various recent totalitarian regimes.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 12:10 AM

No-one seems to have made the suggestion that not everyone likes singing but some prefer listening. Some are probably modest about the quality of their voices and prefer not to let them be heard in public. I can think of many reasons for refraining from joining in apart from purely ideological ones. I am sure nobody would be in favour of making singing compulsory on these occasions.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 02:40 AM

Right, below is the first verse of the national anthem. The only verse most people know well. The verse that will be sung if the UK strike gold.
Now, I ask you, is this a national anthem. I anthem that relects the aspirations of a nation, or simply a song praising the Queen?
No other country - apart from North Korea - has just a sycophantic anthem.

"God save our gracious Queen
Long live our noble Queen
God save the Queen
Send her victorious
Happy and glorious
Long to reign over us
God save the Queen"

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 03:25 AM

Not all anthems 're[f]lect the aspirations of a nation'. The US one (tune written by an Englishman!) relates a specific occasion in 1812 when a flag kept flying at Fort McHenry under gunfire, visible with each explosion. The French one is literally bloodthirsty, all about throat-cutting, raising bloody flags, irrigating plough-furrows with blood ~ oh, most aspirational! is that really the 'aspiration' of the French nation in the intervals of eating cheese & surrendering [JOKE! honest!].

GSTQ is rather a sweet antique with a long tradition behind it. And lovely & short! ~~ crowds aren't left waiting for what feels like hours for the match to begin while it 'drags its slow length along' (Pope), unlike with so many of them.

It's harmless [even tho I don't believe in God or hold all that much of a brief for royalty but let's not go into all that again just now]. A pleasant hummable tune.

Leave it alone, do!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 08:21 AM

I just had a thought.
Now obviously I don't know how many non-Brits have tuned into this thread; but I wonder how many nations' citizens actually object to the content of their national anthem.
I don't mean here that they don't think much of the melody or that the lyrics are a bit twee, but rather find the lyrics objectionable!
Not many I would guess, but I bet Britain would win the gold medal for the proportion of their citizens who find their national anthem distasteful!

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 08:55 AM

I bet Britain would win the gold medal for the proportion of their citizens who find their national anthem distasteful!

I'd very much doubt it. I am pretty sure that most people don't give a toss.

I wouldn't read too much into whether players lined up before a game sing or not. After all, has anyone ever seen an American player sing their national anthem at a big game? They always seem to stay silent while some entertainer murders it.

The one's who really seem to love to sing are the Italian players who always seem to be channelling Pavarotti. Whereas the Spanish simplify matters by not having any words to their anthem, and it doesn't seem to hurt their game.

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 09:06 AM

I have always been interested that HM Herself never seems to sing along; but I suppose she would have to sing "God Save My Gracious Me", which would sound a bit odd!?

〠☺〠~M~〠☺〠

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 09:07 AM

For example Italian footballers national anthem

In contrast American and English players at 2010 World Cup - well, some of their their lips are just about moving.

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 09:20 AM

I am pretty sure that I saw, and heard, Missy Franklin singing along enthusiastically on the podium as they played Star Spangled Banner after she had received her swimming Gold.

That Italian anthem took 1½ minutes; The Queen took just over 30 seconds. See what I meant above···

GSTQ is rather a sweet antique with a long tradition behind it. And lovely & short! ~~ crowds aren't left waiting for what feels like hours for the match to begin while it 'drags its slow length along' (Pope), unlike with so many of them.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 09:27 AM

McGrath of Harlow seems to be missing the point!
I'm sure lots of citizens are not interested in - or at the very least have a neutral position on - their national anthem, but how many of them find their anthem distasteful?
Not millions - as it is in the UK!

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 09:30 AM

Millions?

What, Tunesmith, your statistical basis for that assertion?

Seriously, now...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: MikeL2
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 09:39 AM

Hi

The Spanish athletes don't sing to their anthem....but maybe that is because there are no words !!!

Mind you at the moment the Spanish have nothing to sing about. Their football team not qualifying and as I type no Spanish performer has reached the podium.

Perhaps they need some stirring words to spur them on.

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 09:45 AM

People in Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales dwho want to break away from the English connection don't see God Save the Queen as their anthem not because they particularly object to it's words, but because it's seen as English. Change it for anything else and the same objection would arise.

As for people in Engkand, I'd say only a tiny number care much about it. I'd prefer Jerusaem, but you'd probably find more peop

le object to that. As for Rule Britannia or Land of Hope and Glory... I've sometimes suggested that Yellow Submarine would do fine, with its inclusive message.

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: MikeL2
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 09:47 AM

Hi

Just watched the ceremony for the Gold Medal awarded to Team GB for the Double sculls rowing.

Both sang ( mouthed) the National Anthem and the huge crowd lining the banks of the lake sang heartily.

By the way Heather was educated in Scotland.

Well done Helen & Heather - the first British women to win a rowing gold medal.

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 12:35 PM

MtheGM' well, Mori has said that 20% of the population want to get rid of the monarchy.( I would estimate that the actual figure is higher. i.e. I don't trust poll takers - or their motives/affiliations, and I'd love to see how they conduct these polls).
Even, on 20%, that's 10 millions plus.
So let's say only 20% of those really find "God Save the Queen" distasteful and divisive, we are still talking over 2,000,0000 people.

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 12:46 PM

I just had a thought, I wonder if the type of person who believes in the monarchy, is also the type of person who believes in god.
Maybe Mori could conduct a poll to try to establish if such a connection exists.

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 12:56 PM

For many decades we had the National Anthem at the end of a film in the cinema, but I don't recall anyone actually singing along. Similarly in theatres etc. It was played, but it was not expected that one sang. As a Brownie and Girl Guide, we learned verses one and two (Thy choicest gifts in store etc) It's only fairly recently that sportsmen/women have been 'expected' to sing the words.
I go along with Billy Connelly; the Archers tune is far jollier.

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 12:56 PM

Hey, this is spooky!
I've just done a bit of checking, and I've found that 20% of the UK population are atheist!
Now this is exactly, the same percentage as want to get rid of the queen!
I know this needs further investigation, but it is food for thought!

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 01:29 PM

Or if you say it's 2% of those really find "God Save the Queen" distasteful and divisive...

Incidentally the tune has been used as a national anthem by a remarkable number of countries,including France, Germany and Russia. And of course there's the USA's My Country 'Tis of Thee.

Here's an arrangement of it as the Prussian National Anthem. A versatile tune... (And this Wikipedia entry provides links to a wide range of different sets of words written for it.)

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 01:58 PM

Tunesmith: "I don't trust poll takers - or their motives/affiliations, and I'd love to see how they conduct these polls"

MORI research techniques
Statistical reliability

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 02:14 PM

Guest, that has my head spinning a bit!
I'm not sure how I would approach finding out the percentage of the UK ( GB plus N.Ireland) population who supported/didn't support the monarchy.
Indeed, if a referendum was held to decide the future of the monarchy - and it was preceded with lengthy TV debates dicussing the pros and cons of a monarchy, I'm pretty sure that the 20% figure would double at least!
I see people's support for the monarchy mirroring people's belief in god; that is, they are born into a family that instills those beliefs into them.
Or, if you like, they simply keep the status quo going.

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 03:13 PM

Japan has a very short anthem with an unusual text. A poem of the Heian Period. Music now used added in 1880.

Kimi Ga Yo

May Japan's reign
Continue for a thousand, eight thousand generations
Until the pebbles
Grow into boulders
Lush with moss

Kimi ga yo wa
Chi yo ni ya chi yo ni
sa za re i shi no
I wa o to na ri te
Ko ke no mu su ma de

(Japanese words from musical score, Wikipedia)

Can be heard on youtube, musical score in Wikipedia.

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 03:59 PM

As I understand it a more acccurate translation would have that first line as "May your reign continue for a thousand generations..."", addressed to the Emperor.

Which I suppose is a wee bit more extreme than "Long may she reign", but essentially the same.

National anthems aren't meant to make sense. Poland's got a great one starring Napoleon. Romania's got a very stirring one featuring the Emperor Trajan. Italy has Scipio's helmet...

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 04:49 PM

Kimi -the emperor, or one's lord. (Also an informal word for 'you', see Tale of Genji).
In the new Constitution of 1947, the emperor no longer was a sovereign who ruled by divine right.
Definition acc. new Constitution, affirmed by 1999 premier Obuchi: kimi means "the emperor as the symbol of Japan," and the entire lyric "wishes for the peace and prosperity of Japan."
Furhtermore, "kimi ga yo" "indicates our State, Japan, which has the emperor enthroned as the symbol of the State and of the unity of the people by the consensus-based will of Japanese citizens. And it is reasonable to take the lyric of "Kimi ga yo" to mean the wish for the lasting prosperity and peace of such a country as ours."

The explanation by Premier Obuchi obscures the simple beauty of the original poem.

A more literal translation of the poem, approximate meaning at the time of composition of the original 31 syllable poem:

May the reign of the Emperor
Continue for a thousand, nay, eight thousand generations,
And for the eternity that it takes
for small pebbles to grow into a great rock*
ans become covered with moss.

http://japanese.about.com/library/weekly/aa030400.htm

*an old legend about a certain kind of rock that can grow.

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 04:58 PM

The music for the Japanese anthem waws "composed in 1880 by Hiromori Hayashi, Imperial Court musician, and later harmonized according to the Gregorian mode by Franz Ekert, a German bandmaster."
Original verse composed by Ki no Tsurayuki, ca. 872-945.

http://www.japanorama.com/kimigayo.html

I have been remiss in not checking mudcat for previous threads on anthems, and comments on the Japanese Anthem.

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 05:05 PM

Kimigayo does not seem to have been posted previously.

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 05:49 PM

The Mori polls over how many support the monarchy actually vary. Probably depends on whether there's been a wedding or other celebration or perhaps what scandals are going on. Last month their poll showed a 77% support for the monarchy whilst April 2005 showed only a 65% support. Big majority fair enough but it still means than many millions of Britons don't support the monarchy. Hence the said UK anthem isn't for everyone! A recent ICM poll however showed that support for the monarchy north of the border only stood at 50%. I'd imagine from my own experience though that real ardent royalists or real ardent republicans constitute quite a small percentage.

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 03:53 AM

But surely the whole point is that the anthem is "The National Anthem". You do not need to buy-into every one of its phrases in order to sing (or just stand and salute) it.
Singing 'God save the Queen' is a statement of loyalty to the queen as the figurehead of the country. Just as a Scout's promise to "Do my duty to God and to the Queen" is not a promise to go round to Buck House, and clean up after the corgis, but a pledge of loyalty to the country which the Queen represents.

To say that it should be dropped because 20% are republicans is pointless. In Wales, the fervour with which the National Anthem (Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau) is sung (paticularly at rugby matches) is amazing. But for many it is just memorised. I would be surprised if as many as 20% could tell you what the words actually mean. But the anthem has a single meaning, Welsh patriotism. The words (as the Spanish would tell you) hardly come into it.

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 06:36 AM

But it's far from an ideal situation!
How about having Tv show devoted to finding new national anthem; one that 99% of the population were happy about. An anthem that could reflect the aspirations and wishes of the people. One we could be proud of.
But, of course, that would be seen as an insult to the queen.

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 06:56 AM

If we did, Tunesmith, I will give you plenty of 9-to-5 that you would still be a member of that dissident & unhappy 1%; because you are quite patently one of those who can never be content with what normal people manage to live their lives making do with. An awkward compulsive professional malcontent, that's you. We know your sort. So, as Socrates would have advised you ~~ know yourself.

Best wishes

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 07:36 AM

I'm not the problem! It's the brainless ones who always accept the status quo, and never think outside their narrow little comfort zone!

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 07:45 AM

"To say that it should be dropped because 20% are republicans is pointless."

I'd actually agree though Republicanism is only one reason people may not like the said anthem. The point I was making was not that it should be banned as the National Anthem but that people shouldn't be publicly pilloried for not singing it. ie That people shouldn't be pressurised into singing it. Not that anyone seemed to mind the fact that Wiggo didn't sing it yesterday. As said before it is just a stick which certain sections of the media have decided to bash Scots (and now the Welsh too) with.

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 10:51 AM

But surely just as bad, Tunesmith, to assume that the status quo can never be acceptable ~~ which it seems to me tends to be your assumption.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 01:06 PM

That wasn't my point! A particular "status quo" might make sense ( but not the rock band!); however, it's those that simply accept a given situation without questioning if it is valid.

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 01:22 PM

Nigel has stated views that I agree with.

Sing the songs as a patriotic gesture and sign of respect to your country; many are old and perhaps politically or culturally out of date, but so what?

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 02:05 PM

Someone who is 'brainless and lives in a narrow little comfort zone' is probably ever so much more content and settled than you appear to be, Tunesmith!

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 03:01 PM

Eliza, what you said is probably true:

"Someone who is 'brainless and lives in a narrow little comfort zone' is probably ever so much more content and settled than you appear to be, Tunesmith!"

But that's the weight that us free-thinkers must bear.

I have observed that lots of people who believe in that great tooth-fairy in the sky seem very content.
And lots of those who exist in the relected glory of our great and noble queen also seem content.

I, myself, feel that I would be a happier and more content person if I could convince myself that Father Christmas really does exist, but I've examined the evidence and I just can't accept him as real.

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 03:21 PM

If Emily Pankhust had accepted the status quo where would we be now?

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: Megan L
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 03:21 PM

Actually truly intelligent people do not suffer from an inferiority complex so they feel no need to go picking fights with people over their ideas.

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 04:29 PM

Well, a previous poster mention Emily Pankhurst.
Well, she picked a bloody big fight with the British Government because they had the idea that giving women the vote would be a waste of time.
As a woman, you should count your blessing for people who do feel the need to go picking fights with people over their idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 06:03 PM

If Emily Pankhust had accepted the status quo where would we be now?

Probably we'd be in much the same place. I rather think that female suffrage would have come about even if the suffragette campaign had never happened. Probably around the same time, in the wake of the Great War.

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 02:43 AM

"You do not need to buy-into every one of its phrases in order to sing (or just stand and salute) it."

But this is looking at things from what appears to be quite an anglo-centric viewpoint. God Save The Queen doesn't tend to automatically bring up a swell of emotion and turn on the patriotism autopilot for all Scots. Remember the Scottish football team itself up until the 1980s or so had God Save The Queen played as their own anthem - and it was mercilessly booed by large sections of their own supporters. Eventually after years of this fiasco the out of touch blazers at the SFA backed down and played Flower Of Scotland instead.

Support for the monarchy seems to be about 79% in the UK at the moment but that figure is not steady across the UK's four parts. The figures are heavily influenced by the views of England. As previously mentioned an ICM poll showed it as only about 50% support in Scotland. A BBC poll in 2009 showed it only as 58% in Wales. Breaking that down further 65% of over 65s supported it in Wales but only 42% of under 35s. I couldn't find the figures for Northern Ireland but wouldn't expect support to be considerably more than in Scotland, if at all, and of course it is much more of an contentious issue there.

So if you have an anthem supposedly there to represent 'the union' then you'd expect it to be something that is acceptable to all parts of the said union - and not just to the largest part! Now I am not saying that it should be scrapped as the anthem for UK competitors. I am just suggesting that the argument put forward by Tunesmith is not as invalid as is being suggested by some posters.

What has been actually happening in the real world is that sections of the anglocentric UK media have taken objection to the fact that not all British competitors hold the same viewpoints etc as what is or is supposed to be held in middle-England. One wee Scots lass stated when asked if she would sing the anthem that she wouldn't. She didn't abuse it at all. She stood in line along with the rest of her team as it was being played as did her other Scots team-mate. But that was enough to set off the bloodhounds who then turned their attention to the Welsh men who then also made a decision not to actively sing it. That is their personal choice too. Not one of them has said that the anthem shouldn't be played - they simply made a personal choice for whatever their own reason is not to sing it. Why should there be a fuss? The English journalists and commentators who were involved just have to accept that you can't force people to feel patriotic towards a certain song! They have to recognise that Britain is a diverse place. Likewise you can't just tell everyone to just sing it and buy into it - if they don't want to sing it and don't buy into it.

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 04:47 AM

McGrath of Harlow, you're not really saying that Emily Wilding Davison, who threw herself under the King's horse at Epsom Race course in 1913, died in vain?

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 05:15 AM

Depends what you mean by "died in vain", surely, Jim? Certainly a magnificent gesture {tho it was purely adventitious that it happened to be the King's horse, one of a ruck, that did for her!}; but do you really think it had any significant effect on the eventual outcome, or that women wouldn't have got the vote if she hadn't done it? Honest, now!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 05:35 AM

Last year, when the NFL played at Wembley, Jeff Beck played GSTQ before the game, and I thought it was extremely boorish of a large section of the crowd to insist on singing along.

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 06:06 AM

I, at my age, am distressed when football crowds sing the anthem in the stands as part of the general repertoire of singalongs, along with, e.g., When Sts Go Marching In, That's Zamora, &c. Seems most disrespectful.

Probably just another example of my old-age pissing in the wind! Or does anyone else feel the same?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 06:54 AM

""But that's the weight that us free-thinkers must bear.""

One man's free thinker is another man's arrogant, pretentious twit.

"Free thinker" is the name given to themselves by those who wish to claim superiority over their fellow men, but lack the talent, wisdom, or imagination to be truly superior.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 09:55 AM

I think Emily Davison's sacrifice was a turning moment in the people's perception of the suffragettes. To say, ach well, it would have happened anyway, I think is shameful to her memory.

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: Megan L
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 10:09 AM

Women in the first world war were more free than they are today The slave masters of the modern woman is female fundamentalism that looks down on her if she doesnt want to be come the president of some corperation but would rather stay at home and look after the family

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 12:28 PM

Sorry, Jim. No intention to diminish your admiration or to dishonour anyone's memory. But I cannot share either your admiration for that quixotic self-destructive gesture, which, by its very immoderacy, was as likely to be counterproductive, as productive of the desired outcome; or your assessment of its ultimate effect. The winning of the female franchise was surely far more influenced by women's selfless and positive contribution to the 1914-18 War Effort, than by anything else.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 12:53 PM

Don(Wyziwjg)T, I think YOUR inferiority complex is showing through here:

"One man's free thinker is another man's arrogant, pretentious twit.

"Free thinker" is the name given to themselves by those who wish to claim superiority over their fellow men, but lack the talent, wisdom, or imagination to be truly superior.

Don T. "

A series of counselling sessions might help!

BTW I don't think I'm superior to anyone - just different!

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 01:05 PM

Dearie me, so Emily Davison's ultimate sacrifice in the cause of women's franchise was no more than a "quixotic self-destructive gesture".
End of conversation.

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 02:43 PM

Subject of thread lost.

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 03:33 PM

Since Emily Davidson had a return ticket in her pocket it's perhaps unlikely she intended to die. She wasn't a suicide bomber.

However brave her act was, it should be remembered she wasn't the only casualty. It was only by lucky chance that the jockey, Herbert Jones only received a concussion. In fact he is said to have suffered long term flashbacks, and in 1951 he gassed himself.

This thread really is drifting far from home...

................................. The suggestion that some other anthem would be welcomed by nationalists in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland just doesn't make sense. Any anthem that was intended to uphold the Union could never be acceptable to people who reject the Union. It wouldn't make any difference whether it mentioned the Queen or God or was given over to descriptions of the scenery, or stuff about being nice to each other.

If you don't think a nation should continue to exist, that nation's national anthem isn't your national anthem.

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 04:50 PM

Thanks, McGrath: Jim might want it to be 'end of conversation', but I don't have to bow to his authority. It is traditionally mothers-in-law who insist on having the last word, not antagonists on open forums.

Apart from fact that E Davidson did not intend any 'ultimate sacrifice' [& if she had I can't see why this should be so praiseworthy to one of Jim's well-known pacifist views], she certainly intended to make her point by harm to jockeys - hardworking men doing their skilful job - and horses. Her aim was disruption, not sacrifice. A thoroughly quixotic and ill-considered gesture, far from entirely admirable to my mind; and just as likely to lead to "How can we be expected to give the vote to such irrationally irresponsible characters?" as to "Wow, what inimitably marvellous self-sacrifice: give them all just what they want immediately!".

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 08:00 PM

""Don(Wyziwjg)T, I think YOUR inferiority complex is showing through here:""

It should be patently obvious from my posting recordhere that the last thing I am suffering from is an inferiority complex.

I just have an extreme dislike and disdain for pretentious twits!

Sorry about that, but, if the cap fits, I'm afraid you'll just have to wear it.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 04:32 AM

"The suggestion that some other anthem would be welcomed by nationalists in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland just doesn't make sense"

That is absolutely true! If someone dislikes the idea of an anthem solely because it represents a union they wish to sever - then it doesn't matter which song is used. Plus I think as far as Scotland goes many people mix up the idea of Scottish Nationalism and Republicanism. Of the two biggest political parties here the SNP have republicans in their midst but so do Labour! The SNP however are not a Republican party. On independence the Queen would remain Queen in Scotland. The plain fact is that many Scots had issues with GSTQ before the SNP became the major force they are now. Nationalism is only one of the reasons why many Scots don't feel close to this song.

Subject: RE: BS: Olympic Games National Anthems?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 08:58 AM

Now there's the challenge!
Why not have a Tv talent show to find a unifying national anthem.
Surely, some genius wordsmith could produce lyrics that please almost everyone( well, 99.9%).
And, of course, other counties have strong regional differences ( Spain, for example, with Catalonia and the Basque region)
Come to think of it, I don't think Spain's national anthem has any words!
Maybe, that was their solution to the problem!