BS: Right wing Relatives

Subject: : Right wing Relatives
From: Elmore
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 09:09 PM

My youngest stepson (age 42 ) and his wife and 4 beautiful kids dropped in from Denver today. I'm not allowed to argue with him , despite the fact that he spouts right wing b.s. the minute he walks in the door. We only see them once or twice a year. I have learned to keep my mouth shut, but it's such a drag. I'm not seeking advice, just wondering if anybody out there has the same problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 09:48 PM

Oh yeah. Cousins, even my brother for a while. Now my brother and I agree: toss them ALL out, regardless of party affiliation. Put in strict term limits (he imposed them on himself when he did politics!).

Problem is, EVERYTHING becomes grist for the mill. Your neighbor's aunt's hairdresser's best friend's brother-in-law's puppy is run over and it's all the fault of the the Liberals. The Conservatives are responsible for the drought in the Midwest. And the Moderates of both parties caused the killings in Syria and the collapse of the Euro.

You can't even talk about the weather anymore. As Utah Phillips said, we assign blame in our own best interests.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 10:05 PM

Don't quite understand what you mean by "not allowed to argue with him".

Why? Who says? Not allowed by whom? With what authority?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 10:21 PM

As Utah Phillips said, we assign blame in our own best interests.

Brilliant! Might be a good quote to post at the top of the BS section...

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 10:24 PM

I don't know just how right-wing some of my relatives are. That's because they fear my mouth. *g* Although I expect they do plenty of talking about me and my views amongst themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: meself
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 11:32 PM

Elmore you've got it backwards - it's supposed to be the son who has to bite his tongue while the old man delivers the right-wing diatribe - and the son tells himself, well, the old man had a hard life, he grew up in different times, he doesn't get out much, they've changed his meds, etc.   - least that's how it was in our house. Can't imagine how I would do it if I couldn't make up all those excuses for the party in question. Ah well, I guess that's the cost of true love later in life ....

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Janie
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 11:56 PM

Same issue in my family, Elmore.

My little family-of-origin is surrounded by a sea of conservative to reactionary right-wing aunts, uncles and cousins. For us, it is not a question of not being allowed, it is awareness of the futility, and our own decision to refuse to engage in futile arguments with the true right wingers. We love them and they love us. We all have a strong sense of family obligation, and my most right wing uncle is also absolutely awesome at showing up when family needs some one to show up - and he ain't looking for glory. Just doing what he believes is his obligation for family and also for love of my mother.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 12:04 AM

You may not be allowed to argue. But I don't see why you can't put up a sign along the lines of "No horse shit zone" With a picture of O'Reiley with one of those "Ghost Busters" circles around him.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: artbrooks
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 12:23 AM

I remember my brother saying that he wasn't sure about Mr. McCain until he picked Ms. Palin as a running mate - than he was ok. We don't talk much.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 01:07 AM

My niece glowed: Oh, we just love her!

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Amergin
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 01:26 AM

Lot of relatives back home are uber right wing...all they watch is Faux News....so when you go visit you're inundated with bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Megan L
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 03:26 AM

In our house no topic of conversation was out of bounds if people talked quietly and respeced others views. However anyone who became agressive either in word or deed quickly discovered that 5foot 2 did not mean small and fragile as mum escorted them outside where they had to stay till they could behave.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 03:34 AM

How can you love a fascist, relative or not? Surely the most you can do is tolerate them out of duty. At least that's the way I see some of the right wingers in my family (but they are all from my late wife's side).

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 04:16 AM

There seems to be a general rule or law emerging from this discussion, i.e. people with left wing views tend to be more respectful of other people's feelings than people with right wing views. Says it all really!

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 04:42 AM

Shimrod ~ Your last post seems to me directly to contradict Richard's which immediately precedes it! Talk of self-satisfied self-righteous lefty wankers...!

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 04:52 AM

You stick to your sex life, MtheGM and I'll stick to mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 05:54 AM

"Talk of self-satisfied self-righteous lefty wankers ...!"

Yes, MtheGM, that does seem to be a characteristic of many left wingers. But then are many, self-proclaimed, left wingers really left wing? Look at British Labour Party supporters, for example, who kept their mouths shut whilst their leadership instituted right wing policies and collaborated in illegal wars. They still managed to remain smug and self-righteous though!

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 06:00 AM

Shim - Your post of 0416 seems to contradict what seems to be your position elsewhere - esp in this last one. Did you confuse the sides, or am I missing something?

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 06:08 AM

you can be in the uk labour party and have left views but many thousands of us have given up on them since the betrayal of progressive ideas by new labour and the disgrace of blair following bush into an illegal and devastating war in iraq. i still like to think of labour as capable of change and putting up a bit of a stand against the vicious cruelty of free market economics - but i'm not very hopeful. they are sort of a family i used to know who have lost their way and purpose. we socialists cling to the promise of say occupy or chavez and anti-monetarist protests but it is up to all members of our family to reject this neo fascist economic doctrine and start working for the interests of all the 99%

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 06:11 AM

No, MtheGM, there is no contradiction because I don't consider myself to be a rigid idealogue. I tend to oppose right wing views because, at their root, they seem to me to be based on greed and selfishness. On the other hand I think that the left has failed - particularly in the UK. It (the left) has become a gross caricature of its former self and those who purport to lead it are, I believe, pink on the outside and deep, dark blue on the inside ... whilst still managing to remain smug etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 06:26 AM

Yes, I see, Shim. Thanks for the clarification. Not a million miles from the confusion I tend to labour [no pun!] under myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Will Fly
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 07:22 AM

I had to put up with a bigoted father from the day I was old enough to reason until the time I left home, when I was 21. The man was entitled to his own opinions, of course, as I was to mine, but it was impossible to reason or argue with him without being told to shut up. He just hated to be contradicted so, eventually, I ignored him - and have continued to do so to this very day.

He hated wops, wogs, eyeteyes, niggers, catholics, fenians, yids, etc. etc. Naturally, he never went to church unless compelled to. It always tickles me that, having done a great deal of research into the family, to find out that one set of his grandparents was from Co. Kildare, catholics and as Irish as me hat!

As for "leftie wankers", Michael, I'm with Shimrod. I would consider myself, on the whole, a liberal socialist and a humanist but not a Socialist with a capital S. I've never voted Conservative, but hated Blair as much as I hate Cameron and Milliband! To my mind, the greatest obstacle to progress in this country is the dogmatism of party politics - but what's the alternative?

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 07:46 AM

Part of being a Liberal is the ability to allow others to have a different opinion on politics.
However, when one of them takes advantage of all the left wing programs, Social security, Medicare, minimum wage, overtime, etc. and still runs his mouth spitting venom about "America haters", I find that reason, facts and logic are lost on these poor victims of acute tunnel vision. They can not hear for the noise in their heads.

I have relatives and friends who think Faux noise is fair and balanced in spite of the evidence to the contrary. I tell them, "No amount of belief can create a fact."

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Deckman
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 08:04 AM

I run into this problem occasionally, but the older I get, the less tolerant of BS I get. About a year ago, I found a very simple answer that has worked very well for me:

The first ultra right wing political comments that come out of anyone's (yes ... ANYONE'S) mouth, I simply open the front door and tell them (politely) to leave. They always do, and usually quite humbly.

One of the added benifits of this simple solution is that I now have fewer visits from very annoying relatives. And yes, I also sleep much better! bob(deckman)nelson

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 08:36 AM

Birds with only one wing, can't fly.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 08:50 AM

- but what's the alternative?
, WELL WE SEEM TO BE GOVERNED BY EUROPE so cut the number of MPs,also cut their wages, and spend a little more and have a few more ambulances

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: SINSULL
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 08:53 AM

Very wise, Grasshopper.


When my son was about 9 we had a visit from an aunt who spouted vileness on every racial group imaginable. During a lull in the conversation, my son asked "Why is she allowed to say things like that in our house?"
I just smiled proudly at him. She shut up.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 08:58 AM

Yup. My Mother- and Father-in-Law live by Faux News. Insist that it is the only news that "shows both sides".
But they are pushing 90 and it upsets the wife if I challenge them on their utter horseshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 09:34 AM

MGM. "self-satisfied self-righteous lefty wankers...!"

Do please tell. Are those of the opposite political persuasion "self-satisfied self-righteous right handed wankers..."?

I raise the point entirely out of curiosity as to whether this is the self satisfied, self abusing MtheGM we know of old, whether he is of the right handed persuasion, and whether he is liable to change hands when he learns how to count up to 99?

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 09:43 AM

None such have posted.
I do have some Lefty relatives who I tolerate politely, and I am not even Right Wing.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: kendall
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 09:51 AM

I find that it's more effective to ask questions, such as, Do you approve of Social security? Medicare? minimum wage? child labor laws? women's suffrage? They usually say YES, and I reply, "THANK THE DEMOCRATS" The republicans have fought them all, tooth and claw for over 70 years.

I had three right wing friends who would not let up on the right wing horse shit until I told them, one more load and I block your emails.
Two of them never did respond.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Elmore
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 09:54 AM

Some people have asked why wasn't allowed to respond to my step son's b.s. arguments. Well, I'm passionate about my politics, and can be quite sarcastic in such a discussion. This has led to some harsh words directed to me my wonderful, LIBERAL wife. It's just not worth it, but trust me, this guy is a total pain.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Megan L
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 10:02 AM

Views around here are like swings and roundabouts everyone is so busy looking at thier own wee bit pie in the sky they cant see the useless monotenous turn of the endless round of same old same old.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: kendall
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 11:52 AM

Elmore, it is perfectly reasonable to insist that you and your company stay away from politics to keep the peace. If he insists on using his unfair advantage he's not much of a man.
He's lucky doe doesn't know me!

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Wesley S
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 12:22 PM

I had a friend that I used to argue with by e-mail until he sent me some nude photos of someone that looked like Barack Obama's mother. When I said that was a low blow his response was - you know the democrats would send something like that around if they had it { Eww - nude photos of John McCains mother? Please! }. I gave up and told him never to contact me again. He hasn't.

My brother in law and sister in law send me stuff that I refute with facts. But sure enough - they know that Scopes is just a shill for the liberals.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 12:41 PM

Scopes? I assume that's Snopes.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 01:20 PM

Is there a political party I can join where the members are happy?
Is there a political party I can join where they admit they may have been wrong; EVER?
Is there a political party I can join that doesn't blame absoluteoly everything that ever went wrong on the opposition:?
Is there a political party I can join which doesn't preach hatred of the other lot?
I find both main parties miserable grudging and unforgiving.
I find any party that complains about their members being ground down by the opposition, do exactly the same when they are in power.
In other words they's all a mean spirited, selfish, self serving, bunch of hypocrites.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Elmore
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 01:22 PM

Kendall, thanks for the advice. I'll keep it in mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 01:45 PM

Best thing to do is tell _______________, "Hey, we're family and we disagree on politics so lets just talk about other stuff" and stick to it... Sometimes, it takes a second or third reminder but it eventually works...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: kendall
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 01:47 PM

You don't have to be rude or loud. Just state firmly that you will no longer listen to his politics. If he persists, walk away.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Elmore
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 01:53 PM

God, I wish you could hear him. Not good for my blood pressure.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 02:09 PM

You have a right to tell him to cease and desist while under your roof.

Especially if his mom is gagging you.

Even better, make her tell him to stop. Fair is fair.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: olddude
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 02:28 PM

I got to the point now where I just say, the beautiful thing about America is the right to express your opinions and I completely respect them. I may not agree but that is my right also, People need to work together as we are losing out lately in this world economy .. It usually ends with a smile instead of a word fight

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Elmore
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 02:43 PM

Funny, I didn't start this thread for advice, but to express my frustration. However I got some excellent ideas. I love Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 02:57 PM

Elmore I think people naturally think of themselves in the same position and think of, or in some cases remember their own reactions.

Olddude I am not exactly sure what you are saying. But I think I agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Bert
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 03:21 PM

Elmore, you get back at him on Facebook. If he's young he's most likely got an account.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 03:30 PM

It's a matter of common politeness to refrain from contentious conversation when visiting someone in their own home. My late brother-in-law provoked terrible arguments with my late father (who was right-wing and his son-in-law left-wing) It's ok to have an interesting discussion with each side listening to and respecting the other. But with politics and religion this rarely happens. It upsets the company and causes family feuds. This happened with us. Now they're both dead, I wonder if the fierce altercations continue in the next world! Someone needs to be very firm and insist it stops.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 03:55 PM

When he does this, completely ignore what he says, and maybe talk to the four beautiful kids about music and food and stuff like that.

I'd imagine he probably does it to get a rise out of you. The normal way people deal with these kind of differences is to avoid the subjects which stir things up unpleasantly, as part of normal courtesy.

That doesn't rule out lively discussions, which recognise the differences and explore them. The real trouble is when someone talks as if they assume you share views you detest.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: kendall
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 03:59 PM

When my ex and I got into an argument, one of us would say "Innit awful what they did to Marie Antoinette. That was our flag of truce.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Will Fly
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 04:04 PM

There are good reasons why three topics - religion, politics and women - were traditionally banned from being discussed in the officers' mess...

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 04:06 PM

Football can be another topic best avoided in some families.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 04:50 PM

right wingers, greedy types, racists, capitalists, conservatives, bigots, establishment lickspittles etc need to be challenged at every point. theirs has been the prevailing argument since the '80s and it has failed ordinary folk in every country ever since. who are generally too kind and well-mannered to object. if you are arguing with a family member-so what? there should be enough love there to survive a healthy exchange of views. people of the 1%-and their defenders- need to be reminded whenever possible that they are evil vermin, predators on the rest of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Wesley S
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 08:17 PM

I've been known to tell conservatives at my church that I retired because I made a pile of money after fixing the Presidents birth certificate....

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: olddude
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 08:22 PM

Jack
see it works LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: kendall
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 08:26 PM

I said to one of the Obama bashers, "What is this world coming to when a democrat is allowed to get rich." Blank stare.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Janie
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 08:39 PM

Right wing and conservative are not synonyms.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 08:48 PM

rightwing and backward looking are

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 10:15 PM

Whereas leftie and...

Oh, hell. Let it pass, let it pass!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Elmore
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 10:54 PM

Saw my stepson again at his father-in law's 80 th birtthday bash. Lots of people there. No politics. He was charming.Hell, he charmed me. He's had serious problems with his in-laws over the same political issue in the past.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: meself
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 02:00 AM

Maybe he's been getting advice on how to deal with you on some other internet forum ... !

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 03:19 AM

"Oh, hell. Let it pass, let it pass!"
Just as well, given your support for the lady (or should that be Lady) who helped prevent a mass-murdering war criminal from coming to trial.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 04:22 AM

I don't see Tony Blair as being any less culpable than General Pinochet Jim. Unless you count the fact that only a small percentage of the lives he wasted under a false premise, were his own countrymen and women.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 05:56 AM

She did all sorts of other things also, Jim; not all ones which one would expect those of your overall views to approve I daresay, but in accordance with the majority national [i.e. democratic] will at that. We could both trawl back over old threads & find lots of little bits of mud to chuck at one another, but it seems a bit of a pointless exercise I must say ~~ and I expect we could find also some broad areas of concordance on other matters.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 06:42 AM

"She did all sorts of other things also, Jim; "
Yep - she tore the country in half and threw hundreds of thousands on the dole - using the police as a private army to do so.
Her support for Pinochet acts as a warning of just how near we came to having a fascist government in Britain.
As far as your own politics are concerned, when I read your "leftie" jibes I can't help remembering that it was not too long ago that you and your idiot mate were conducting a MacCarthyite-type trial to find out my politics - spooky or what!!
Scratch a Tory and you never know what you'll find under the veneer.
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 07:26 AM

Who you calling a Tory? You know no more of my precise politics than you claim I know of yours. Best left that way...

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 08:13 AM

Whoops, sorry, THATCHERITE Witchunter will do fine
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 08:40 AM

"but in accordance with the majority national [i.e. democratic] will at that"...

The suggestion that Thatcher ever had a majority of votes should never be allowed to go uncorrected. The British electoral system doesn't work that way. Most people always voted against her party.
...........................
But this is drifting the thread way too far. There might be interesting stuff here still to come about family conficts and suchlike, and they'll be squeezed out if it turns to rehashing political arguments which belong on oter threads.

In fact its just the kind of thing which Elmore found so unpleasant in meetings with his step-son.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 08:43 AM

Agree with MoH.

If the British thread-humpers will let me post on-topic...

(If you want to talk about British politics in a thread primarily about a guy in the and his son-in-law in the US, would you start your own thread and fight for the on-top position there? Please?)

No politics seem the way to go. Perhaps there can be an agreed-upon penalty for the first person to defy that rule. Either both sides refrain, or no one does and the evening is ruined.

There are people I know because of music who post so much political/conspiracy shit on the internet that I avoid them. Then, I see them again in Real Life and they're the same fun-to-be-around musicians.

Abraham Lincoln:

"We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained, it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic chords of memory will swell when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature."

The internet can nurture our worse sides because it's harder to get us to shut up. Family gatherings would likely be a place where people would come down hard and fast on disruptive behavior.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Megan L
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 08:58 AM

A friend and I were talking about the hatred that seemed to pour from a mutual aquaintance I recounted an incident from my childhood that might bear retelling here.

I remember as a child when the boys were teasing me I would get to the point where I shouted "I hate you" mum always told me Hate hurts that I could hate what people did but never hate people if you do it is one step from forgetting they are human.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Mooh
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 08:59 AM

Luckily, my immediate family (brother, sisters, kids) is at least liberal, and most of us NDP. I am probably the furthest left of us all. I doubt my cousins agree with us politically, except one, but they're practically strangers to me, except one.

One of the girls dated a rightwingnut for a while. They fought. He was a dick. She kicked him to the curb, thankfully, with a "what was I thinking" sort of self awareness.

Most of Canada's elected Conservatives nowadays aren't of the Robert Stanfield or even Joe Clark kind, not of thoughtful, well-considered, less partisan, respectful, and tolerent kind.

No subject is taboo for family discussion for us, but we haven't been severely tested on the political front.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Brian May
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 12:04 PM

I wish I had a dwelling that big . . . they're much closer in my house

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 02:08 PM

"You know no more of my precise politics than you claim I know of yours."

Come off it M. You are at least as far to the right as anyone who's ever posted on this site.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 06:00 PM

The Catherine Tate Show - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Catherine_Tate_Show
Lauren Cooper is an argumentative and lazy teenage girl who gets out of
awkward situations by repeating her catchphrase, "Am I bovered?"

.,,.,.

Now what on earth could have made me think of that!?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 06:09 PM

Well, I suppose it's a concise way of saying something like: "We could both trawl back over old threads & find lots of little bits of mud to chuck at one another, but it seems a bit of a pointless exercise I must say."

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Janie
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 07:45 PM

An observation about my own extended family- the women tend to value and understand the importance of relationship more than the men, and the women tend to all leave the room when the men start arguing politics, be their points of view liberal or conservative.

When my Dad was alive he simply refused to argue, and had no problem telling both of Mom's brothers to stop forwarding right wing e-mails or he would have to block all of their e-mails. His own family would argue religion but not politics, and he refused to engage in any of those debates when he realized, early in his adult life, that no one was actually communicating or listening to one another.

I was fortunate to have two parents who were more thoughtful than ideological, and whose political and philosophical views changed over time based on their own life experiences, compassionate observations, life education, and who accepted that there are no "one size fits all" answers to the business of living life on life's terms to the best of our abilities. They were two people who were willing to grapple with complexity, who were deeply compassionate, and also deeply respectful of the validity of different points of view, even when the same was not afforded them.

We have a more familiar and familial relationship with one of Mom's right wing brothers than the other. With the more familiar brother, we are all comfortable telling him to shut up, we ain't gonna talk politics, and he largely has shut up. With the less familiar brother, Mom is not comfortable confronting him, so often avoids his calls. She has no desire to alienate him, however, and understands that he does not have the capacity her youngest brother has to tolerate differences at least to the point of shutting up. She also understands he is absolutely sincere when he calls to check on her well-being and when he has made clear he is there for her in any way he can be. She simply accepts his limitations in the ways he can be "there" for her.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 05 Aug 12 - 04:55 AM

Janie, your Mom is obviously a born politician (of the compassionate, caring kind)!

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 05 Aug 12 - 06:27 AM

"Now what on earth could have made me think of that!?"

Wouldn't know. I never watch junk tv.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Aug 12 - 06:32 AM

To understand the right of a person to hold a point of view opposite to your own, is realism.
To deny them to hold any point of view opposite to your own, is bigotry.
You may argue with them, you may try to persuade them that they are wrong.
When you descend to the realms of personal insults, and denial of their right to hold such views, you have lost the argument.
All you have proven then is your own lack of balance
Think of the old saying about people who swear. That doing so shows a lack of vocabulary.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 05 Aug 12 - 07:07 AM

JM. Absolutely. Makes me wonder why he bothers.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Aug 12 - 02:09 PM

==="Wouldn't know. I never watch junk tv."===

.,,.

And it's

WOODSON ~~~~~

Double Gold Medal for

Resolute Point Missing

and

Extreme Illiteracy!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: GUEST,sturgeon
Date: 05 Aug 12 - 02:45 PM

I've asked this before, but why the heck do right-wing trolls inhabit a site devoted to songs (largely) of the oppressed?

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Elmore
Date: 05 Aug 12 - 04:18 PM

Ha! To create dissension.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: GUEST,999
Date: 05 Aug 12 - 04:38 PM

Easiest way to handle it is to ask the relative to explain his/her core beliefs in detail. That will take about 5 minutes. Then declare politics off-limits for the remainder of the evening/gathering.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: John P
Date: 05 Aug 12 - 07:34 PM

I have one right-wing relative that I can have civil political conversations with. But his right-wingness is tempered with a sharp intelligence. He actually voted for Obama -- not because he agreed with his politics (he doesn't) but because the Republicans ran Sarah Palin for VP. He doesn't have much use for ignorant stupidity.

The rest of my right-wing relatives, like most right-wingers apparently, can't string two logical thought together to save their lives. Their conversations consist of idiotic slogans, and they just get made when you ask them to support what they are saying, or ask what happens next (as in, how do those policies actually play out in real life). I just don't engage anymore.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Aug 12 - 07:47 PM

"Easiest way to handle it is to ask the relative to explain his/her core beliefs in detail" 9

As John P said, they lean heavily to one liners. I have had absolutely no luck with that approach. The strange thing is that on other subjects they are articulate, even voluble, and persuasive. I have one brother who is an absolutely excellent teacher on his subject (mechanics) but ask him just a simple Why? when he says he supports someone politically and he resorts to dismissive end-of-the-subject cliches.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: GUEST,999
Date: 05 Aug 12 - 09:22 PM

That's fine, and that's what I meant. They will have had their say and after that no more. If it takes a lesser amount of time than five minutes, so much the better.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 01:38 AM

sturgeon clearly thinks that anyone who happens to like folk music but doesn't buy the entire lefty package from Marx to Castro must be 'a troll'. Sez it all about lefties, really, doesn't it?

〠☺〠~M~〠☺〠

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 02:47 AM

... & I suppose O Woodson will regard that as a post

"as far to the right as any ... ever posted on this site".

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: GUEST,Marianne S.
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 02:59 AM

"I've asked this before, but why the heck do right-wing trolls inhabit a site devoted to songs (largely) of the oppressed? "

I have analysed the logical structure of this sentence and I cannot see on what basis MtheGM thinks this means 'anyone who happens to like folk music but doesn't buy the entire lefty package from Marx to Castro must be 'a troll'. One might logically infer from the original comment that *all* right wing trolls inhabit one or more sites devoted to songs etc, but not that they all inhabit this site. The sentence structure implies they have a choice of sites. However I cannot see how it can be taken to mean that all non-left wing persons are trolls.

Perhaps this is an example of distorted right wing thinking?

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 03:09 AM

With respect, Marianne ~~ I don't think you had 'analysed' the precise sequential context, in relation to other posts, of the posts to which I was responding. I could probably do so if I had the least belief that you would pay sufficiently 'analytical' attention: but I suspect that, for all the grandiloquence of your claim, you are just not a sufficiently 'analytical' person to make the effort involved worthwhile.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: GUEST,Marianne S.
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 03:18 AM

M****** G******** M***

I remember your articles in folk magazines in the past. You haven't improved any.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 03:31 AM

Ah well ~~ a backhanded compliment is better than none, eh? Thanks for remembering a poor old yesterday's man, anyhow!

~Michael~

Anyhow; how could one possibly improve on perfection?

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: GUEST,Marianne S.
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 03:38 AM

Faulty logic again.

If, for example, I remember a performer from the past as the worst I ever heard, it would not be a compliment. Merely being remembered is no compliment.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 03:48 AM

You wait till you are over 80 and see if you still think so!

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 03:48 AM

What Mike was saying, is something I have remarked upon before. Folkie people as a species are largely left wing/socialist in their politics.
This might explain why so many schoolteachers are involved ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 03:54 AM

I am not awatre of any Right Wing Trolls who are memnbers here.
I am aware of a tendency for those of a Far Left persuasion to brand any dissent as Far Right.

The most Right Wing here would be US Republicans.
US Democrats broadly compare with the Right Wing of UK politics (Tories).
We have a few UK members who might be from the Tory Left, but none further Right than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: GUEST,Marianne S.
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 04:00 AM

MGM - and leaping to conclusions!

I'm old enough to remember your contributions to folk journalism - this might well indicate an age in excess of 80.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 04:17 AM

Your logic not unassailable, MS, whatever your age. My last contribution to Folk Journalism, iirc, was The Guardian's obit of Bob Copper ~~ not all that many millions of years ago [8, to be precise]. I only took up journalism on a regular basis in 1969, at the age of 37. My Folk Review columns & reviews, TES & Guardian folk record & Times folk book reviews, were written in my 40s-60s. You could easily have been 30+ [or even 40+] years younger than me when you read them, them, couldn't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: GUEST,Marianne S.
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 04:36 AM

I might even have been an unusually talented toddler! However you assumed that I am under 80 ("You wait till you are over 80") whereas the only justifiable conclusion from what I said is that I was old enough to read (or to have had the articles read to me but old enough to understand them) some articles of yours in the past.

(In fact it was mostly Folk Review.)

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 05:01 AM

"... & I suppose O Woodson will regard that as a post"

No Mr M. It was merely a comment on the insufferable reactionary smugness with which you continually pervade this forum. Tell you what. You stay in your ivory tower and I'll stay in the real world.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 05:17 AM

"Nobody loves me. Everybody hates me. I'm going down the garden to eat worms." Traditional song

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 05:29 AM

Still -

insufferable reactionary smugness... continually pervade... ivory tower ... the real world
.,,.

10 unarguably & indubitably emotively loaded words in a post 35 words long ~~ including vocatives & such phatic signifiers as "tell you what". And that seems to be Mr Woodson's concept of rational argument.

Ah well, I rely on Catters' ability to estimate from this whose tower is ivory and whose world is real.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 06:15 AM

From the look of this thread most people have already decided. I can only speak for myself of course, but I'm from a working class background and I long ago qualified as a horny handed son of toil. There were no ivory towers where I was brought up. There were no silver spoons either.

I do engage in rational argument now and then though. You really should try it.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 06:18 AM

Oh, Folk Review was it, MS? Ah, happy days. Oh dear me, the obloquy I used to collect for sometimes suggesting in my monthly column {you have a monthly column anywhere, did you MS? Ah well...} that one ought to have an occasional chance of hearing a bit of folk music at a self-styled folk club. And here's darling old Marianne, still fighting that old battle. And she sez that isn't a compliment, LoL!

Teeheehee

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: GUEST,Marianne S.
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 07:05 AM

Just the occasional article, MtheGM, and (if I couldn't get out of it) the occasional review. I remember you for your elegant prose. I remember on occasion agreeing with you. I remember being astonished from time to time that an intelligent person could hold such views. I remember your fight for traditional music. I still remember your suggestion that if singer-songwriters thought they were so popular they should run singer-songwriter clubs instead of infesting folk-clubs.

I think you demean yourself when you resort to cheap insults. I can't imagine it impresses many people and I doubt it converts anyone to your point of view.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 09:30 AM

Not aware of having resorted to any cheap insults. Apologise for anything I have said to you that was read as such. {Different for truculent old horny-headed Woodenhead, mind; but he started it, Sir!} Glad you remember some of my writing with what appears to be a measure of affectionate agreement.

But when you write "I remember being astonished from time to time that an intelligent person could hold such views," that is where I feel you put your finger on the weakness of your left-orientated position; which seems to me [correct me if I am wrong] to be predicated on the postulate that morality and leftwing views are in some way synonymous or identical. They aren't. If they were, it would be hard to fathom why all leftwing societies from Cromwell's Commonwealth to Stalin's Soviet Union to Ceauescu's Romania to Ulbricht's East Germany have been such popular paradises to live in that they lasted for ever with no need for any sort of oppression of anybody within them.

The only actual political party I have ever actually been a member of, in the sense of paying subscription to belong, was Labour. I was on the ward committee of Hampstead Labour Party with a member of the then Shadow Cabinet & future cabinet minister Patrick Gordon-Walker, in 1960. Then moved to Cambridge, where my home was a ward committee room for the 1964 election. And then we got Wilson; & Kinnock; & Brown...

So enjoy your leftwing views, and the feel of moral superiority which possession of them clearly affords you. But have at least the modesty to recognise that some people possessed of all their faculties fail to share them, unthinkingly and unquestioningly, with you.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 09:39 AM

Forgot to say, thank you for that "elegant prose"!

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 10:05 AM

"Not aware of having resorted to any cheap insults."

God almighty. That one surely has to be on a par with Enoch Powell's claim that he never said anything to encourage racism.

BTW. It's horny handed, not horny headed. That means I used to earn my bread by the sweat of my brow. You should have tried it while you were still capable.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 12:56 PM

I was talking to Marianne, not you. Who asked you to butt in? I specifically excluded you from my disclaimer, as I can't think of too many insults for you, Woodentop. Mind you, I needn't really bother, as you are making a pretty good job of making a thorough fool of yourself with no outside assistance. I can scarcely believe it; but you actually are using a cliché like "horny-handed" in all seriousness, aren't you? Do you genuinely not realise what a caricature you are making of yourself, with your foolish, horny-headed, chippy-shouldered idiocies?

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: GUEST,Marianne S.
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 02:54 PM

You're doing it again, M. (I hope you don't mind my being informal.) Have you any idea what your posts seem like to other people? Leaping to conclusions is dangerous exercise.

'Correct me if I am wrong'? I wouldn't even try. Anything I can say will just bounce off that carapace of certainty.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 02:57 PM

What was that about no cheap insults? If you wish to enter into private conversation with Marianne, then a public message board is hardly the place to do it.

What is wrong with the term 'horny handed' anyway? Not that I can imagine the silver spooned Michael Grosvenor Myer ever having engaged in anything which remotely resembled hard physical labour.

I could be wrong though. Come on Mike. Frighten us all to death with your tales of how you once brushed the floor up.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 02:59 PM

"leftwing societies from Cromwell's Commonwealth.....". Whaaaaaaaaatttttttt!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 03:06 PM

I think this thread has gone somewhat off topic...

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 03:42 PM

when most top politicians in the uk are proposing a very narrow definition of political differences, is it time to forget the major parties when talking about left and right? i was just reading 'homage to catalonia' this afternoon where orwell was clearly accusing the communists of the day as little different from the right in their desire to manage capitalism rather than offer a genuine alternative. while in the '30s we had the whole range from anarchists to fascists all with a reasonable chance of a bit of power (in spain anyway)- today the free market fascists are in the saddle in many parts of the world. the left is still there outside of parliament (in uk and usa and in all the countries they terrorise)but we are struggling to make any inroads in curbing the power and wealth of the 1%. good music helps though. and lively argument. and beer. i have plenty of arguments with my old man but apart from him i never meet anyone prepared to seriously propose right wing views. i don't think we will ever change each others ideas on forums like this but for me, its quite interesting to see what they think. they seem to be have plenty of points to make but never really say why they hold such a depressing view of humanity.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 03:48 PM

I really can't think of a more depressing view of humanity than Karl Marx's. Can you?

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 04:07 PM

'workers of the world unite-you have nothing to lose but your chains' - is just about the most hopeful and positive message there is. a bit of community, mutual support, treating each other with respect and fairness. who could object to such idealism? depressing is the fact that throughout history in all parts of the world people have been enslaved and set to fighting each other for the benefit of a small number of men -warmongers, greedy, racist, parasites - with seriously disturbed and depressing views and the power to persuade us mugs to pick up a gun on their behalf

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 04:07 PM

Of course. Reagan, Bush, Palin and smuggins the ignorant theocrat.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 04:10 PM

And while I am at it, yes, I do see reactionary politics - conservative republican, whatever, - and morality as mutually exclusive.   The one is devoted to the supremacy of man over man, while the other asserts the commonality of humanity.

If you don't, Mr Meyer, you are as venal a moneygrabber as Dave or Gideon.

And rightwingers are not welcome in my house.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 04:26 PM

"'workers of the world unite-you have nothing to lose but your chains' - is just about the most hopeful and positive message there is."

Yeah, right. Sure worked out for the Russians, didn't it?

In fact many did lose more than their chains they lost their lives. Most of those who didn't got new chains, shiny communist chains.

Political slogans are very very cheap. And best of all realities lies somewhere between the political extremes.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 05:55 PM

"...those from the Left can never admit they can be wrong-because they assume that they embody virtue itself.
Accordingly, they demonise and sneer at all who dare disagree. Pinning their faith on Utopian fantasies, they tend to regard theoretical ideas as having more substance than what is going on under their noses."

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 06:05 PM

Trolls always win around here, don't they?

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 07:30 PM

"I really can't think of a more depressing view of humanity than Karl Marx's. Can you?"

Jack. Have you ever read Marx? He is difficult, baffling at times, and - I've got to say it - hopelessly out of date. But a view of society where everybody pulls together for the betterment of everybody has got to be the most noble vision anyone ever expounded since Jesus Christ.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 07:49 PM

can you see any demonising or sneering in my posts? karl marx had theories, some of them were pretty astute. not his fault that monsters like stalin or mao distorted those theories. i am just saying that all people are deserving of respect and all have the right to try to have a happy life. we would all be better off if we treated everyone else fairly and did not fall for the lies (and money)of the men of violence. it is global capitalism that is the cause of so much misery and injustice in the world today - the fact that a few people have so much while much of the rest of the world are really struggling is not a problem of the right or left, it's just wrong. if we had compassion and tolerance for each other and co-operated rather than fighting.....well, it is such an obvious point it hardly needs making. the world is run largely for the benefit of -mostly american- a very small group of incredibly wealthy and powerful white males. anyone care to explain why that is a good thing?

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Elmore
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 08:13 PM

But, what about my annoying stepson?

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: meself
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 08:28 PM

Oh - you mean Karl Marx is NOT your stepson? I'm confused.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 08:31 PM

True, many of the views expressed by Karl Marx and Jesus Christ were similar. They differed in the use of force to justify the end as Jesus was more pacifist, but his old man was more of a warmonger than Marx! Now if Elmore thiks he has family problems I suspect a lot of arguing around the heavenly throne as a left wing son tries to teach compassion to his right wing father. Trouble is the old man refuses to take advice to perhaps improve this less than perfect world that he claims as his creation.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Janie
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 08:44 PM

It was an interesting topic, Elmore, about people and relationships. Sorry it got hijacked.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 08:47 PM

"Jack. Have you ever read Marx? "

Not everything he wrote. What I did read was more criticism than optimism. "Let the workers grab the factories by force and own them themselves" is not exactly what Jesus taught. But it was a Labor Economics course. The prof apparently thought that Marx best expressed the workers' point of view. Lots of crapping on the status quo for sure. Marx made some good points and was an incisive economic thinker. But Ayn Rand also made a couple of good points in her clumsy stories. I am sure the best system, while far form perfect for all, is between those two poles.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Elmore
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 09:07 PM

Janie: No big deal. I actually found the thread creep interesting, and amusing.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 09:09 PM

I kind of thought the topic was covered when you thanked people for the advice you didn't ask for. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: meself
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 12:55 AM

Who exactly IS the thread creep? Has that been decided yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 01:10 AM

When Lenin was accused of betraying the Revolution, he responded, "What's the point of having a revolution if you don't betray it?"

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 07:04 AM

When you say "Right wing", Elmore. I think you mean EXTREME right wing, as there's surely a bit of right wing in all of us!

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 08:57 AM

We have the same problem with puritanical, self satisfied, judgemental "leftie" relatives. They berate the old folks about everything from shopping at big stores, not buying local,singing the national anthem, believing in God and all the way to how they vote. We've told the intolerant buggers to stay away, they have, we are grateful

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: GUEST,sturgeon
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 11:44 AM

Speak for yourself, John Mackenzie. But then you just have!

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 11:50 AM

Well spotted me old fish. (Does that make you a trout instead?)

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 11:52 AM

Jack the sailor: agreed. Still, I probably should have used a different title, since rude behavior is not confined to the political right. ( I can hear people out there yelling "No shit!)

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Elmore
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 12:36 PM

That was me just above, without my cookie.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 01:06 PM

My Dad is pretty right wing. He's Canadian. So that means sticking to his principles means no health care or Old Age Pension. The arguments are short. My wife is pretty left wing. No fracking, No coal, no war, no military.

I am grateful for all that we have and realize that there is a price to be paid at both ends of the spectrum. What does that make me?

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Elmore
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 01:20 PM

part of a small minority.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 02:53 AM

Away yesterday so didn't open Mudcat. Back now. Oh, yes, old Woodieface. Does he really not see how unintelligent he comes over, having to reduce everything theoretical to the purely personal, just because he doesn't like what he erroneously perceives as extreme rightwing views, to which I am perfectly entitled on a free forum in a free society; and then expressing all his foolish resentments in such shallow cliché: "Horny-handed son of toil," I ask you!

As to my supposed "silver spoon": my upbringing was thoroughly bourgeois. My father was deputy editor of a small specialised newspaper; my mother the seventh of eight children of a Hoxton grocer. I was educated free at a grammar school, had my Cambridge fees & maintenance paid by Middlesex County Council; and did lots & lots of the sort of work he goes so proudly on about during the National Service I had to do in between ~~ cookhouse duties, coal shovelling, barrackroom floor scrubbing & polishing... Didn't even get my commission till succeeding mandatory three years Territorial service. Some 'silver-spoon'!

So be off with you Woodentop, with your jejune predictable class-resentments and chippy-shoulder, and learn to dispute with a bit of objectivity & courtesy. You are evidently a man of some education, & have no need for such fatuous posturing.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 03:42 AM

1. The price is always paid by the poor to the rich.

2. Very privileged to get a free degree, Meyer. The cuntservatives put a stop to that.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 03:58 AM

I thought you meant me above, Richard. Please note my name is actually Myer.

I by no means discount the value of the system of grant-maintained degrees in force in my youth; but as it was the system which then obtained, I see no reason why I should be made to feel in any way guilty about having benefited from it. I too greatly regret its replacement by a system of loans.

And I repeat that it does make Woodson's 'silver-spoon' jibe peculiarly inapposite. I can't think why he appears so incapable of disputing in a civilised fashion without coming across as being so peculiarly SPITEFUL!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 04:30 AM

And with regard to Marianne's denunciation of my 'carapace': I honestly cannot see that I express myself in any greater tone of dogmatism or certainty that anyone else expressing opinions on this thread. She saw fit to rake up some old controversies from Folk Review of nearly 40 years ago, which I endeavoured to answer with reasonable courtesy. If I may so put it, I genuinely can't see what she has to get her knickers in such a twist about.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 05:27 AM

If I might be permitted a speculation as to what might be the answers of Mr Woodson & Ms Marianne.S to the questions I have put to them:

I suspect that they regard the views of those on the left to be so morally unquestionable, so intellectually unassailable, that, by a leap of logic whose basis I must confess escapes me but seems to be general among those of their persuasion, they have no need, and cannot be expected, to abide by the norms of general societal courtesy or civilised social intercourse. "You rightwingers are all such despicable forms of lowlife that we have no need even to pretend to treat you or your views with any sort of respect or consideration," would appear to be their watchcry.

I need hardly add that I consider such views to be wholly mistaken, and their consequences entirely baleful, from any possible pov.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 05:45 AM

What, in all seriousness, do others think? Does not Mr Woodson's shrill abusiveness tell more cogently against, rather than in favour of, his arguments?

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 05:52 AM

... and would a cry of 'tu quoque' or 'same to you with brass knobs on' be justified with regard to Ms S's 'carapace of certainty'?

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 06:23 AM

Thank God for that. For one awful moment I thought MtheGM had given up living.

Sorry M. Two year's compulsory national service does not qualify you as a horny handed son of toil, even when it is done at squaddie level.

You are almost correct though. I am a man of considerable education, as well as being a horny handed son of toil.

To elucidate. I educated myself by making liberal use of our splendid public library system, whilst working by day as a delivery boy, french polisher, building worker, lab technician and quality controller. Of course, several night school courses played their part, as did the desire to immerse myself in the writings of Karl Marx, Trotsky and Lenin, to say nothing of the works of numerous social historians such as EP Thompson, Christopher Hill, EJ Hobsbawm and the Hammonds. That of course, was in addition to immersing myself in every book on music I could lay my hands on, plus various tomes on literature, poetry and drama.

Sad to say that, Marx apart, I didn't manage to embrace many of the other social philosophers, although I eventually spent three years at university, which sorted that one out nicely. That of course was three years which, when I wasn't studying, was spent brushing floors, scrubbing toilets, delivering Christmas post, and anything else I could find to support myself.

Silver spoon be damned!

Anyway, you haven't told us yet how you conceive of Cromwell's commonwealth as left wing. If Cromwell was left wing, where does that place Adolf Hitler? Yes I know somewhere to the left of Michael Grosvenor-Myer.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 07:02 AM

I didn't say it did so 'qualify' me, Owen. I have no wish to be regarded as a HHSOT as such. But you averred that I could *never* have performed such tasks; and I am here to tell you that, during Nat Serv, esp in the first 4 months or so, one is required to perform many such. And I did them; & survived. I had had to do them at various youth camps previously, for that matter, which I never silverspooned out of. Had there been any silverspoon, such would presumably have choked me ~~ tho we all, whatever background, had to do them. But you still haven't justified your silverspoon accusation, either, have you?

I greatly respect your educational efforts and achievements. Please do not imagine I don't. But why such vituperative and immoderate and [I will use the word again] spiteful despising of anyone to whom they were not altogether so necessary? I can't help my father having happened to be a journo rather than an engine-driver or a miner, can I? And my education was far from silver-spoon, as I have pointed out ~ entirely within the maintained system up to 18, & then grant-maintained at university.

"All things in common", I learned, was the watchword of Cromwell's Commonwealth. Sounds pretty leftwing to me as an aspiration. Didn't achieve it, of course; but no left-wing society ever has achieved its stated aspirations, has it? ~ which was my point in mentioning Cromwell along with all those others, which you have not yet responded to, have you? Why have all left-wing paradises, I ask again, been such hell to live in while they survived, which was never for very long?

Thank you for the much more restrained and moderate tone of your last post, which makes it far easier to respond without the necessity for resentment.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 07:06 AM

Sorry about the name, Myer. At the end of the day you defend those who take from those less fortunate than themselves. To do that or to defend it cannot morally be justified.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 07:11 AM

Not aware of having made any such defence, Bridge. Can you point me to anything I have posted which could be so interpreted ~ at any hour of the day?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 07:15 AM

anybody else read naomi klein's 'shock doctrine' detailing the strategies of milton friedman's chicago boys and their attempts to export shock capitalism to economies they don't approve of across the world? started with support for pinochet, and with the help of reagan and thatcher has developed since then with all the upheavals and misery of the free-market adventure that we have become used to - from south america, far east, soviet union, poland etc and now uk and usa. i've always looked at things from a left perspective but had never realised the extent of the viciousness and mendacity of global capitalism. i'm shocked on every other page - a real horror story.

it seems there is no ordinary person around the world who benefits from this and no-one outside the 1% who is prepared to support it. yet it has become the model and only system that we must accept. why? many countries are democracies - why have we let that power be stolen from us? why aren't we more angry? next thing there will be financiers from the IMF in the cabinet, sidelining the wishes of old democracies like greece. oh.....

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 07:33 AM

Sorry Mr M, but you misrepresent me yet again. Nowhere in this or any other correspondence have I suggested that you couldn't do hard physical manual labour. I said that I couldn't imagine.

Anyway, thanks for the correction. Your stint of sweating your brow was of course four months, not two years. Roughly from about now until Christmas in fact.

BTW., I've got nothing against people having been born with silver spoons in their mouths. It would hardly have been their fault when all's said and done. What I detest is the heritage of racial/biological/cultural Superiority which so many such people thought this gave them; and that the rest of us deserved the hovels and heartbreak to which our lowly status befitted us.

And your old man never rose to anything more than deputy editorship of a small specialised newspaper? There was me thinking you were one of the bourgeoisie. By all the riches in the kingdom of heaven, as one of my Gaelic speaking forebears might not have said, We surely do live and learn.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 07:53 AM

Gold medal for the To-Conclusions Jump!

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 10:42 AM

You defend them, Myer, from the "lefties" - there is enough in your dislike of opposition to and sneering at "lefties" to vindicate my charge. Those who are not with us are against us.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 10:51 AM

Very facile, Mr Bridge. I had expected better of you in justification of such an accusation; but I must evidently have overrated your intellectual abilities. Pity.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 10:55 AM

Richard, in the days when Mike went to uni, it was as he said grant aided. Said grant was not automatic, and was still means tested.
However the salient point is this, in those days there were only about 48 "Universities", whereas now there are over 400, (alleged) universities. Since it was decided to turn everything including the local toilets into a university, (Pee HD?)the grants required overtook the budget allocated, and therefore charges had to be made. I agree that it's sad that it's come to that, but it has been the norm in many countries for years, and people still managed to get through their courses.
Unless of course you'd rather they upped your taxes to pay for it ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: GUEST,Marianne S.
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 11:12 AM

MGM -"If I might be permitted a speculation as to what might be the answers of Mr Woodson & Ms Marianne.S to the questions I have put to them"

I am unable to find any questions which you have asked and I have not answered. Please repeat same.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 11:27 AM

Marianne ~ please see my post of 6 Aug, 0930 am, which had an implied interrogative tone, I thought, and took up points you had made; but which you refused to respond to on the plea of my 'carapace of certainty'; which I have since questioned as to whether you have not yourself demonstrated something of the same sort [today 0552 am].

I should be happy to debate courteously with you; and thank you again for recalling my 'elegant prose': but cannot feel you do your argument any credit by falling back on refusals to answer because my postulated but non-existent 'carapace' is so allegedly 'impenetrable'.

I say again that I do not admit to having expressed myself in any tone of dogmatism or certainty greater than that demonstrated by any other poster to this thread ~ yourself included.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: GUEST,Marianne S.
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 11:49 AM

"that is where I feel you put your finger on the weakness of your left-orientated position; which seems to me [correct me if I am wrong] to be predicated on the postulate that morality and leftwing views are in some way synonymous or identical"

Ah - 'correct me if I'm wrong'.

You're wrong. Consider yourself corrected.

Since you are unaware of my personal circumstances, you cannot assume that if I do not reply I am refusing to answer your questions. You might, for example, take into account the possibility that because of other commitments my visits to Mudcat are of short duration and do not occur on a regular basis.

Yes, I am left-wing. Yes, I am aware of the record of far-left governments. Yes, it saddens me that it has so far been impossible for a nominally far-left government to behave with humanity towards their citizens. Yes, it saddens me that revolutions have always so far fallen into the hands of the self-interested.

No, I do not believe that we should therefore sign resignedly and give up the fight for justice and fairness.

No, I do not believe that all right-wingers are "all such despicable forms of lowlife that we have no need even to pretend to treat you or your views with any sort of respect or consideration." In face to face debate I have frequently made the point that that attitude is counter-productive and will in fact prevent the people so accused from listening to the points the speaker wishes to make.

Yes, I am depressed when debate turns into childish insults and name-calling.

Please do not assume that your response to this, if any, is being ignored because I do not respond immediately. I am unlikely to have time for Mudcat for the next few days.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 12:06 PM

Sincere thanks for so reasoned and courteous a response, Marianne. I hope you may return in a few days, to develop some points, to which I might rejoin, and some sort of productive interaction might ensue. In fairness to myself, I think I must say that made no such assumptions as postulated in your sentence above about your 'personal circumstances'. You must admit you did positively decline to answer on the plea of the impenetrability of my 'carapace of certainty'.

Still, let us proceed from here, as time and commitments may permit.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 02:49 PM

"I do not believe that all right-wingers are "all such despicable forms of lowlife that we have no need even to pretend to treat you or your views with any sort of respect or consideration." In face to face debate I have frequently made the point that that attitude is counter-productive and will in fact prevent the people so accused from listening to the points the speaker wishes to make."
.,,.
Just as a question arising from this: How is this compatible with your having , back when you used to read my Folk Review columns,   "be[en] astonished from time to time that an intelligent person could hold such views" [your post of 6 aug 0705am]. Why should he not, if, as you now say, you do not find such views intrinsically despicable?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 03:28 PM

Tax and spend? Yes.

Myer - a characterisation optimistic on your part but without basis or rationale. You are sunk.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 03:44 PM

My, what a valuable and meaningful contribution to the discussion, Bridge!

[Anyone out there the remotest conception of what he is on about?]

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Elmore
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 04:10 PM

I might have to deal with my stepson next week before he returns to Denver.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 04:19 PM

"How is this compatible with your having , back when you used to read my Folk Review columns,   "be[en] astonished from time to time that an intelligent person could hold such views" [your post of 6 aug 0705am]. Why should he not, if, as you now say, you do not find such views intrinsically despicable?"

That just doesn't follow. I am sure that most people can't understand why other people like all kinds of things, or hold all sorts of beliefs, but I doubt if too many would would jump from that to deciding that those things and those beliefs must necessarily be "intrinsically despicable".

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 04:22 PM

Feeble, Myer. Pwned.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 05:33 PM

More & more cogently expressed, dear old Bridgey.

Whisper: Tell me, are you on something ~~ or what?

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 09 Aug 12 - 08:15 AM

sorry to interrupt you pedantic squabblers by returning to the question here of how to deal with family members with whom you disagree. you lot do seem familiar with each other, yet don't listen to each other's points-are you by any chance related?

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: artbrooks
Date: 09 Aug 12 - 08:48 AM

Would one of our illustrious mods please change the title of this thread to "Ad hominem and other personal attacks", please.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: John P
Date: 09 Aug 12 - 10:28 AM

For me, the big difference on whether to engage with family members (or friends and co-workers) who disagree with me politically is whether or not they can carry on a rational discussion. I'll usually give someone one chance to answer questions or otherwise support what they say, and if they can't or won't, I simply don't try to have further discussions with them. When they say things that are strong enough to leave me feeling bad if I don't respond, I just say, "I disagree" and leave it at that.

I'm not sure what I would do if they were in my house and saying destructive or hateful things and I didn't feel like I was able to respond. That would be an intolerable situation and would need to get fixed in one way or another. The usual way is to demand silence on the subject from all parties. Anyone who can't keep a civil tongue in their head while in someone else's house shouldn't be catered to emotionally.

Many years ago, I told my then wife that her biological father wasn't welcome in our house again. Fortunately, she was as pissed at him as I was so she accepted it. He peppered his right-wing political speech with the most offensive and far-ranging bigotry I've ever heard. Her adopted "real" father, on the other hand, was a hard right militaristic conservative who I loved dearly and with whom I had many polite conversations in which we disagreed completely.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Songwronger
Date: 09 Aug 12 - 07:43 PM

I prefer to discuss policies with the people I meet instead of personalities. When Bush was president he expanded the federal governdment. I would talk to right-wingers about their positions, then point out how Bush had violated every tenet they believed in, like smaller government.

Same with Obama. Sure he's a socialist, but he's a national socialist (nazi). He's in the pocket of the corporations and the banks. Witness how his Obamacare imposes a murderous tax on the poorest ten percent in America. Hitlerian. For the good of the insurance companies' financial statements.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Elmore
Date: 09 Aug 12 - 07:48 PM

But, What about my stepson?

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: John P
Date: 11 Aug 12 - 11:41 AM

But, What about my stepson?

Tell him that political comments are off limits in your house.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: Elmore
Date: 11 Aug 12 - 12:30 PM

John P. Just joking. I was serious when I initiated this thread, but never expected it to last so long, and morph into something entirely different. Just strikes me funny. Thanks, Elmore

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Aug 12 - 05:52 PM

We've had that S*********r person illustrating the problem. Fortunately it's a lot easier here just to ignore that kind of unwanted guest than it is in a real family situation.

But the same principle applies as with online trolls - the safest thing to do probably is to assume it's coat-trailing to annoy and provoke, and refuse to reward it.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing Relatives
From: GUEST,A regular
Date: 11 Aug 12 - 06:10 PM

I was once elected to a town council. The town was small enough that everyone knew everyone or about everyone. When I was approached on the street with a complaint about this or that I would say, "My memory might get some of this wrong. Would you be kind enough to put the complaint in writing, sign it, drop it at my place or the town office and I will be sure to bring it before council." Never heard a thing.

When relatives or friends have brought up politics or religion in my place, I have on occasion said, "I don't wanna hear this bullshit but I will read it. Would you write it for me?" Nhat.