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US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ?
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Subject: Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Jon Bartlett Date: 03 Aug 12 - 02:51 AM Guidance please for a Canuck with several naval Civil War songs in his head: is it civil to sing them or do backs still go up? Maybe it's OK for US singers, but not for foreigners? I don't sing them in Canada because they're not specially relevant, but with all these Civil War things happening in the US, I'd like to share them - but not if it makes folks uneasy/unhappy. Jon Bartlett |
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Subject: RE: Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Jon Bartlett Date: 03 Aug 12 - 02:52 AM Sorry, second point: is it "Civil War" or "War between the States"? Jon Bartlett |
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Subject: RE: Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Henry Krinkle Date: 03 Aug 12 - 03:09 AM Actually, it was the War of Northern Aggression. And you can sing any song you like. I'm a big fan of Blackface Minstrelsy. I love Mr.Bones and Mr.Tambo and Mr.Interlocutor. It seems like everyone wants to censor the past . But Jimmy can go crack some corn. Because I don't care. (:-( ))= |
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Subject: RE: Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: IanC Date: 03 Aug 12 - 03:56 AM Perhaps need to be a bit clearer ... in the UK, we think "Civil War" is something which happened in the 17th Century. There are still a lot of songs, but they don't cause much concern these days. :-) |
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Subject: RE: Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Richard Bridge Date: 03 Aug 12 - 04:51 AM Oh, the legacy of Cromwell - and the atrocities on both sides - can still cause a fair amount of dissension. |
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Subject: RE: Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: IanC Date: 03 Aug 12 - 05:01 AM But not the songs, on the whole. |
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Subject: RE: Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Bonzo3legs Date: 03 Aug 12 - 05:02 AM Go ahead and sing what you like - if someone takes offence then they must wrestle with their own demons. |
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Subject: RE: Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: matt milton Date: 03 Aug 12 - 06:00 AM "It seems like everyone wants to censor the past . But Jimmy can go crack some corn." Well that's an interesting example to pick, cos "Jimmy Crack Corn" would certainly pass muster from the PC brigade: it's arguably a song in which a slave/servant delights in the death of his master. |
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Subject: RE: Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: matt milton Date: 03 Aug 12 - 06:10 AM As always, it depends what the song is! You can't simply say "you should/shouldn't sing song X because it's "about" this or that". I recently learned "The Kaiser" by Pink Anderson. It is sung from the (ironic) point of view of Kaiser Wilhelm II. It contains the immortal line "We conquered little Belgium/and France will soon be ours". It has a fair bit of jingoistic flag-waving about Uncle Sam's boys. It is distinctly un-PC. Why do I like it? Ultimately, I reckon, cos it's ridiculous: it boils down global warfare and killing on a massive scale into a puerile scrap between "our boys" and "their boys" in a playground. There's a kernel of truth there. Pink Anderson sings it with just the right amount of deadpan and humour. Of course, you certainly couldn't sing it if it were about, say, the Bosnian conflict, if it concerned Ratko Mladic for instance. (Unless you were trying to make some kind of confrontational art statement, I suppose.) That's the thing about history. Ultimately, the passage of time turns today's mass murderers and serial killers into boogiemen and folklore. |
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Subject: RE: Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: matt milton Date: 03 Aug 12 - 06:16 AM Another example: I really love the lyrics in a lot of Orange songs, as found in corners of the repertoires of Len Graham, Paddy Tunney and in Sam Henry's Songs of the People book. Those songs are often chock full of bizarre references to Templars, and arcane rites. (There are northern irish Masonic songs that have a similarly occult pomp to them.) It's one thing for Len Graham to sing them. But for me they've got too much recent-history baggage for an Englishman to sing them. I'd have to ask myself, 'would I sing this in an Irish folk club?', and the answer's no. And, as far as I'm concerned, if you wouldn't sing it there, then it's disingenuous/cowardly to sing it anywhere else. In the case of US Civil War songs, I imagine you'd be OK, that these days, singing them would only be contentious or divisive in very particular corners of the southern US. But I really wouldn't know, I leave that to the much better informed US residents on here... |
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Subject: RE: Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: MGM·Lion Date: 03 Aug 12 - 06:22 AM No, Matt ~ he doesn't delight, but regrets him: perhaps because he was a tolerable master, and his death would have meant the break up of the estate and his thus becoming liable to being sold to another master who might not be so reasonable? There are so many attitudes to the American Civil War [as it is generally known over here in my experience] - from The Blue & The Gray to The Red Badge Of Courage to D.W. Griffith's unspeakably loathsome The Birth Of A Nation, a 'revered landmark of early cinema' which actually relates how the KKK saved the South when the Nigras were getting uppity after the North's victory! - that it's hard, especially to ousiders like us, to judge what attitudes to the conflict and its aftermath would be appropriate at this time of day. But, as to singing songs, that must surely depend on the song, its attitude, and several other such variables and imponderables? ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: matt milton Date: 03 Aug 12 - 06:33 AM He delights when I sing it. |
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Subject: RE: Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: matt milton Date: 03 Aug 12 - 06:45 AM As with any good folk song, there are plenty of subtleties and ambiguities. If you wanted to, you could make a case for the song even suggesting that the master's death was in fact ENGINEERED by the servant. The first verse describes a bunch of menial stuff the slave had to do when he was a kid, stuff the master could perfectly well do himself. Basically, the child has to all but wipe his master's arse. Not very dignified.: When I was young I used to wait On master and hand him his plate Pass him the bottle when he got dry And brush away the blue-tail fly In the second verse, we see how the master is in fact dependant on the slave for his safety. A vulnerability is revealed, and revealed rather coyly in the faux-genteel "the pony being rather shy" line: When he would ride in the afternoon I'd follow him with my hickory broom The pony being rather shy When bitten by the blue-tail fly Note the "chanced" in the third verse: the slave's testimony is very careful to emphasise contingency in his account (he'd be executed if there was any suggestion of negligence on his part, let alone - perish the thought - actively having engineered his master's death) One day he rode around the farm Flies so numerous that they did swarm One chanced to bite him on the thigh The devil take the blue-tail fly Note "the jury wondered why" and the reported "the verdict was". Again, a reminder that there's real jeopardy here. But also that, if the jury wondered why, so might an attentive listener to the song: Well the pony jumped, he start, he pitch He threw my master in the ditch He died and the jury wondered why The verdict was the blue-tail fly Chorus Last verse: that master has literally been knocked down off his high horse to lying "beneath" the tree. Bit of irony there, considering how the slave used to water him when he was dry in the first verse; now that won't be a problem. The word lie crops up twice in that verse. (One might ponder the words "I'm forced to lie" here!). The epitaph is another kind of testimony (a verdict set in stone): it was definitely the blue-tailed fly's fault. No question. Oh yes, definitely the blue-tailed fly. Just look at the epitaph. Just hear the jury's verdict. Nobody could possibly ever suggest that it was anything other than that pesky blue-tailed fly being responsible for the death of that guy. Oh no. Not for nothing does fly rhyme with sly... Now he lies beneath the 'simmon tree His epitaph is there to see Beneath this stone I'm forced to lie The victim of the blue-tail fly |
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Subject: RE: Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Phil Cooper Date: 03 Aug 12 - 07:15 AM Jon, I don't think you'd have a problem doing civil war songs in the states. My brother and his son do some of the re-enactments and they'd fit right in with the historic interest and context. |
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Subject: RE: Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Bat Goddess Date: 03 Aug 12 - 07:15 AM Jon, to actually answer your question (about what name to use), you can't go wrong with "The American Civil War" or even "The War Between the States". "War of Northern Aggression" is usually used by Southerners or Southern sympathizers still fighting it. There are other names, too, with social and political overtones. I've never heard any objections to any of the songs, but I've always lived in either the Upper Midwest or New England (where tempers run higher about the War of 1812). Nuances might be better explained by some of our members from the FSGW, especially those who have recorded CDs of Civil War songs. (American Civil War or just plain Civil War is by far the most common name -- at least from the Dakotas to Maine and as far south as Pennsylvania which covers my experience from school to adulthood.) Linn Linn |
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Subject: RE: Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: GUEST Date: 03 Aug 12 - 12:24 PM Last time I looked, some southerners were still calling it "The Recent Unpleasantness" |
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Subject: RE: Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Bonzo3legs Date: 03 Aug 12 - 01:21 PM 400,000 - 800,000 were killed in that civil war - call it what you will - sounds like fucking slaughter to me! A great pity the south lost. |
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Subject: RE: Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: GUEST,mg Date: 03 Aug 12 - 01:27 PM If they are respectful and non-inflammatory we should all sing them. Some need a bit of tweaking. They are songs that meant to much to people who died tragic deaths for a tragic cause. Most did not own slaves..they were too poor themselves..it is very sad that people can't sing Dixie any more..it is a song about pancakes for heavens' sake...it is not meant to offend anyone..although the land of cotton is obviously hard to swallow... So don't sing Dixie. Look at the words to the Bonny Blue Flag... Many are universal..tenting tonight...tramp tramp tramp the boys are marching..about the pOWs...battle hymn of the republic... They are beautiful songs. I would sing songs from both sides. I would call it the Civil War. I would not assume that everyone on the Southern Side was inhuman or wishing to perpetuate slavery..most were uneducated hill people who would have profited from the abolition of slavery as they would have been more needed in the job market. No need to get on any high horses. Sing the beautiful songs, amend slightly the ones that could be offensive and explain why. |
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Subject: RE: Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Elmore Date: 03 Aug 12 - 01:34 PM The late Jim Taylor, Sheila Kay Adams' husband used to specialize in songs of the American civil war. Sparky and Rhonda Rucker do them as well. There was a 2 hour presentation of civil war songs at the Old Songs festival this year. Seems perfectly acceptable to me. |
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Subject: RE: Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: GUEST,Stim Date: 03 Aug 12 - 03:09 PM Maryland's State song, "Maryland, My Maryland" was written at the outset of "The Unpleasantness", and expresses sentiments such as "Huzza! She spurns the Northern scum!", and says of our Beloved Father Abraham "The despot's heel is on thy shore, Maryland!". There is a certain amount of discomfort about this, since, despite our dubious history, we are amongst the Bluest of the Blue States, but we stick with it because it is one of the few historical state songs that anyone actually likes, and all the new lyrics people have written for it are lame. |
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Subject: RE: Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Bert Date: 03 Aug 12 - 03:25 PM It depends on the company. For example one wouldn't sing "Marching through Georgia" at any venue in The South; that would be be plain rude. |
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Subject: RE: Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Ebbie Date: 03 Aug 12 - 03:34 PM "The Recent Unpleasantness" ? I've never heard it referred to as such. Sounds much more like a Britishism to me. From the Digitrad: "note: as sung by The Highgraders, San Francisco, early 60s - the traditional chorus, which makes no sense, is "Jimmie Crack Corn"; I prefer "Gimmie crack'd corn" - whiskey] ES Could be. Also might not be. Logic often leads to fakelore. RG DT #669" |
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Subject: RE: Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 03 Aug 12 - 04:31 PM Know your audience. No one except the most deeply neurotic of the deep South should be offended by many Yankee songs, because by general consent they're now considered "American." But know your audience. Minstrel songs sung in minstrel dialect are out of bounds for reasons of taste (call it "PC" if you wish). African Americans and many others find it weird and creepy, and maybe scary and insulting for white people to sing even "Jimmy Crack Corn" in minstrel or even "Black English" dialect. Normal English will work for songs without a racial component. "Dixie" by common consent is kind of off limits, though you might get away with the melody alone. The "Battle Hymn of the Republic" is probably too pompous, pretentious, and apocalyptic to be sung for fun. (Check out *those* lyrics! Lucky that few people took that stuff 100% seriously.) The sentimental stuff (like "Lorena" and "Aura Leigh" and "The Vacant Chair") is nonpartisan and always acceptable. "The War of Northern Aggression" is a consciously tendentious name. Southerners supposedly prefer "War between the States" to "Civil War," but I don't know that anybody's ever monitored their actual usage, and frankly I haven't it heard it in conversation nearly as often as I've read it in books. "I'm a Good old Rebel" was written as satire, but many will take it at face value unless you explain what's up with it. Any non-minstrel song without any obvious politics in it is fine. Never sing the "n-word" or the corresponding "d-word," unless it's clearly understood to be part of an educational, historical performance, preferably on a college campus. Just speaking from my experience. Carry on. |
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Subject: RE: Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Bobert Date: 03 Aug 12 - 04:53 PM There's an excellent song that came out by the band "Hearts Field" and written by Fred Dobbs entitled "Drummer Boy"... If you can find this song you'll love it... I've performed it over the years but the best one was just me on guitar with a drummer playing just a snare.... B~ |
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Subject: RE: Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: GUEST,Stim Date: 03 Aug 12 - 05:42 PM "The recent unpleasantness" is not that recent, of course, but the phrase, and similar, are still used among those who consider themselves to be Southerners. The idea that, though sentiments and situations may be well known, for the sake of politeness, it isn't desirable to make them the center of every interaction. There is a rather unfortunate tendency for certain people who do not know the South to view it as some sort of repository for bigots, illiterates, and homicidal hillbillies. It is often overlooked that the sentiments for secession were far from universal in the antebellum South, and that the strongest feelings against slavery came from those who saw it firsthand. |
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Subject: RE: Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: GUEST,mg Date: 03 Aug 12 - 06:16 PM There is great superiority and condescension coming from the north to the south. ANd there is not common consensus that Dixie should not be sung or even played as an instrumental. That was a sacred song to many people, an anthem, which unfortunatley made others very uncomfortable, because of slavery, cotton references etc. If you read at least the verses I am familiar with..although no one would say "Injun batter" these days, you would probably say what in the world is the problem...makes you fat or a little fatter, look away, look away, look away Dixieland. I wish I was in Dixie, hooray, hooray..it is a song of people who loved their country, or part of the country, and it is very sad when a beloved song is killed. But sometimes it has to happen. But it should happen respectfully, and it didn't. mg |
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Subject: RE: Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: GUEST,Gerry (channelling Tom Lehrer) Date: 03 Aug 12 - 07:03 PM There are innocuous folk songs/But we just treat 'em with scorn/The folks who sing 'em got no social conscience/Why, they don't even care if Jimmy crack corn. |
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Subject: RE: Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Bobert Date: 03 Aug 12 - 07:07 PM I know the South purdy good... Born here, educated here and other than living in Wes Ginny with a bunch of Confederate flaggers for 20 years, have lived here all my life... No, it ain't all about bigots... But the South has more than their fair share... Now back to music... Hope ya'll found "Drummer Boy"... The band is outta Georgia and it's one fine song... B~ |
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Subject: RE: Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Joe_F Date: 03 Aug 12 - 08:10 PM I think "Marching through Georgia" is a good deal worse than rude; it is *mean*. I wouldn't sing it anywhere, except as documentation. |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Henry Krinkle Date: 04 Aug 12 - 02:41 AM Nobody has referred to The Star Spangled Banner. Only one verse ever gets sung. There are four of them. And the third one refers to slaves and hirelings.Even our sacred national anthem is politically incorrect. I think it should be replaced with This Land Is Your Land. But the banks foreclosed on our lands. Maybe Helter Skelter? |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Henry Krinkle Date: 04 Aug 12 - 03:04 AM Oh,by the way. It was just another war the in which the wealthy people sent the poor people off to fight. Just like all of them.Abe Lincoln was a Republican after all. Just like George Bush.War criminals and murderers. They murdered their own people. (:-( P)= |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Jon Bartlett Date: 04 Aug 12 - 04:03 AM Thanks to all who replied. One song in particular I'd like to sing is "The Cumberland's Crew". It includes such lines as "An ironclad frigate down on us came bearing High up in the air her rebel flag flew An emblem of treason she proudly was waving Determined to conquer the Cumberland's crew." I'd like to hear particularly from Southerners, since I've met so (relatively) few. It seems to me that the US is really two nations, and I don't know about the tensions still existing between the two. Jon Bartlett |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Ged Fox Date: 04 Aug 12 - 04:25 AM I'm from the wrong side of the pond for this discussion, although my great-grandfather fought for the Union. However, I am puzzled as to who determines the 'common consent' that Dixie should not be sung any more. |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Henry Krinkle Date: 04 Aug 12 - 06:44 AM Yankees |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: John P Date: 04 Aug 12 - 11:15 AM Maybe you should ask some black people what they think of songs that glorify the Confederate States of America. |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Bill D Date: 04 Aug 12 - 11:43 AM Jon...many folks sing these songs. Mudcatter SongBob (Bob Clayton) is part of a group which does them... and if you haven't already, check out The 2nd South Carolina String Band, who do very 'authentic' versions. (There are examples of YouTube) Many years ago, Ernie Ford had a fine LP of Civil War songs. Now... the naval songs are not nearly as common, so well done examples would be welcome. (Bill... who sang "The Hippies & the Beatnicks" back at you at the Cook's in Maryland several years ago.) |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Elmore Date: 04 Aug 12 - 12:09 PM I highly recommend "The Civil War Collection" and "The Civil War Collection ll", by Jim Taylor, both available at Amazon. |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 04 Aug 12 - 12:19 PM If the U.S. is "really two nations," the division isn't geographical. It's between the relatively sane and everybody else. |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Bill D Date: 04 Aug 12 - 12:44 PM awww... Lighter, that is not really a useful definition. Isn't whatever truth there is in it true of every country? "Two nations"... ummm...that depends on what the topic of conversation is. Yes, you CAN find a belligerent attitude from 'some' southerners on 'some' topics... and it may be different in Texas than it is in Mississippi or Georgia. And yes, there are songs that one might not sing in certain areas without disclaimer or pre-clearing from the hosts. I assume the same situation exists in other countries. The band mentioned above sings ALL the songs...and they explain why. If you were going to perform in Georgia, you might ask if there are any local 'rules'. |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: JedMarum Date: 04 Aug 12 - 01:22 PM Please do sing them!! It is entirely appropriate. And yes, when there are sensitivities because of language or terms used then, as opposed to now, take the time to explain - but these songs and stories should be heard!! As for Civil War vs War Between the States - us southerners can get riled over the term Civil War, but that is a modern aversion. If you read correspondence or hear quotes from Robert E, Lee or Stonewall Jackson or Jeb Stewart or Nathan Bedford Forrest or virtually ANY of the great southern Generals from they period, the term was Civil War. |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: JedMarum Date: 04 Aug 12 - 01:24 PM I have yet to push this website, since it will be released to world with my next album, but it is up and operational. Here it is: CSA Banjo.com |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: JedMarum Date: 04 Aug 12 - 01:40 PM And though we focus today on the divisions, there were plenty who grew to feel comradeship with any who participated in the battling over the years. I once met a soldier who was just back from active duty in Iraq. I working a pub gig near the army base in Killeen TX and he'd been asking for and singing along heartily with lots of warrior songs. When he asked for "The Green Fields of France," I said "Isn't that an anti war song" and he said, "Yeah, but it's still about war!" So I was struck by a comment from Shelby Foote in the Ken Burns series, when an old southern Civil War soldier said he felt a real kinship, a true brotherhood with ALL the soldiers who fought the war, blue and grey ... and looked forward to being reunited with them in the next world. Here's the song I wrote from those words. |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Bonzo3legs Date: 04 Aug 12 - 01:43 PM Isn't there a civil war song about a general playing with his privates? |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: JedMarum Date: 04 Aug 12 - 01:54 PM Dixie is sung frequently just about everywhere in the US. I've never been shy about playing it or singing it. Like any other song, of course; there's a time and place ... There are also a very large number of blacks in the US who celebrate their Confederate heritage. And they are vocal supporters. I once played a festival in Louisiana and finished by concert there with a song about a young Confederate daughter who was accidentally killed by a Yankee cannon barrage. She was cared for by her black nanny. After my show was over a black man who worked at the venue came to talk to me for a while about the story. He told me a bit about his family and their experience during the war - after a few minutes I realized the ball cap he wore had a confederate battle flag embroidered on the front. I commented on it and he said, pointing to the flag, "That's my heritage! I had black ancestors and white ancestors that fought for that flag!" The Civil War is not simply black and white, and most of us who've studied know that there are many shades, many stories and many sides. I've read the personal accounts of several slaves who picked up rifles, joined the with the Confederate infantry and killed Yankees. Some didn't question the reason why, others were simply loyal to their master's side. If we simply look today with our own judgment of the issues, and fail to understand the human side of black/white relations, they times and the way people lived and loyalties they had - we will miss so much. |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 04 Aug 12 - 02:15 PM > Isn't whatever truth there is in it true of every country? Yup, including the U.S. - which remains saner than some I could mention. |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Henry Krinkle Date: 04 Aug 12 - 02:28 PM (:-( P)= |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Nancy King Date: 04 Aug 12 - 05:41 PM Seems to me there are lots of really good songs from that era, and it would be a shame NOT to sing them. But explaining the historical context is important. |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Greg F. Date: 04 Aug 12 - 06:10 PM There are also a very large number of blacks in the US who celebrate their Confederate heritage. Very large number? Hardly. Name two. A great pity the south lost. Why is that, precisely? second point: is it "Civil War" or "War between the States"? Actually, at the time and up thru the re-birth of the Klan in the 1910s & 20's, it was called The War Of The Rebellion. And rightly so. *** Footnote: Shelby Foote is a novelist, not an historian.- |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Greg F. Date: 04 Aug 12 - 06:31 PM slaves who picked up rifles, joined the with the Confederate infantry and killed Yankees. Such slaves were an anamoly and the number of them was miniscule & statistically insignificant. Some didn't question the reason why, others were simply loyal to their master's side. Some were suffering from Stockholm syndrome, the fear of being killed or "corrected" if they didn't side with Ol' Massa, and genererations of brutalization. Collaborators from oppressed populations are nothing new- there were Jews that aided the Nazis. Its unfortunate that Neo-Confederate dogma & distortions have of late captured the imaginations of so many otherwise intelligent persons. Thomas Dickson, Jr. would be proud. |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 04 Aug 12 - 07:02 PM Greg F.: generally correct. However, besides being a novelist, Shelby Foote was a popular narrative historian whose carefully researched, three-volume history of the Civil War has been in print for nearly fifty years. It focuses on the Confederate side, much as Bruce Catton's carefully researched, three-volume history of the Civil War - in print for roughly as long - focuses on the Union. Both trilogies are beautifully written. |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Henry Krinkle Date: 04 Aug 12 - 07:57 PM It was a war over real estate. Look at all the coastline the United States Government would have lost. The lands. The propagandists turned it into a morality conflict. Made us recite that stupid Pledge of Allegiance. The North invaded the South when they wanted out.President Grant wanted to deport all the Negroes to the Dominican Republic. Abraham Lincoln said he never intended the Negro to be the equal of white people. Remember the riots in the 70's in Boston over integrating the schools? The Yankees didn't want them. They wanted to maintain control. |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Greg F. Date: 04 Aug 12 - 08:23 PM So, Krinkle: what planet do you spend most of your time on? Or are you trying (unsuccessfully) to be amusing? |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Henry Krinkle Date: 04 Aug 12 - 08:30 PM If the colonies had lost their battle against British tyranny George Washington and Co. would be considered treasonous terrorists and reviled to this day. If the South had won Robert E. Lee and Co. would be called great patriots instead of rebels. The winner gets to write the history. And tell any lie they want. What would the story be in Britain if Adolf Schickelgruber had triumphed? Germany freed the English people. |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Henry Krinkle Date: 04 Aug 12 - 08:34 PM And I ain't just whistlin' Dixie....... (:-( D)= |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Henry Krinkle Date: 04 Aug 12 - 08:53 PM And there's Greg F resorting to insults. I suppose namecalling comes next. |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Greg F. Date: 05 Aug 12 - 08:05 AM Lighter: generally correct. However, if you check the reviews & etc., you'll find that most serious historians of the Civil War - both North & South - have major problems with Foote's 3-volume |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: JohnInKansas Date: 05 Aug 12 - 09:25 AM It seems that most references here to "Civil War Songs" are to songs that have been the better known ones, some of which are remembered simply because they were "fightin' words" at the time (and some still are). While that's probably the more important part of the subject, it might be worth mentioning that I've seen quite a few "Civil War Songbooks" (in antique shops, mostly) that are quite a bit different than what most people think of in that context. If would seem that every "civilized community" both in the North and in the South had a piano teacher (that's how they decided civilization had arrived) and every piano teacher with a pretense to competence must have produced a "self-published songbook" of the songs that they composed while all their students were off at the war. Most of the ones I've seen are ... I suppose the gentlest term would be "unsophisticated" ... but "maudlin" also comes to mind; but if one looked at enough of them it might be possible to get an idea of the "community feelings" of the time in particular places. Arranged for performance a few might be decent prospects for "audience education"(?), perhaps with a little background on their origins. "Civil war songs" shouldn't necessarily mean just the ones we all know, although all of these "minor sources" offer pretty scant possibility of finding much that's really outstanding. I can say that the quality of composition, and even most of the lyrics, tend to be a little better than the (political) "party songbooks" and prohibition songs from times nearer those war/reconstruction years. John |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Greg F. Date: 05 Aug 12 - 09:42 AM Also under the heading of "Civil War Songs" would be the entire Stephen Collins Foster catalog - sung North and South. |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Henry Krinkle Date: 05 Aug 12 - 10:36 AM If Nathan Forrest was a war criminal, what was William Sherman? Waging war against women and children. Shameful. |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Greg F. Date: 05 Aug 12 - 12:00 PM IF Forrest was a war criminal? Its a documented FACT. I suppose in your cosmos he had nothing to do with the KKK either, which was only a social club, after all. Get a life, Hank. Or go watch "Gone With The Wind". |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Henry Krinkle Date: 05 Aug 12 - 12:12 PM You haven't answered my question,sweetcheeks. What was William Sherman? A parson and schoolmarm? (:-( O)= |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Greg F. Date: 05 Aug 12 - 12:38 PM Mommy, Mommy! But Johnny did it, too! Time for you to read up on Sherman & his tactics without your neo-Confederate specs on. Man, next thing you'll be defending Goebbels. |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Bill D Date: 05 Aug 12 - 01:01 PM Jeez, folks... the question was about singing the songs!. It is not necessary to re-fight the entire war to answer the question. We get enough of that in threads about the Middle-East... and not long ago, about Ireland. No matter WHO wanted what, or who tended toward excess to win, it was long and sad and emotional... and it led to songs to express the many emotions. The songs tell much of the story, and ought to be heard. Carry the debate over naughty soldiers to PMs! Or have a separate thread. |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 05 Aug 12 - 01:34 PM For the benefit of our international friends, Confederate General Forrest, a former slave trader and postwar founder of the KKK, would not or could not but certainly did not prevent his troops from slaughtering hundreds of African-American prisoners at Ft. Pillow, by far the worst such incident of the Civil War. (And they weren't very common.) When Union General Sherman, a graduate of West Point, marched on Georgia he gave orders that property was to be destroyed but that civilians were to be left unharmed in their persons. Of course, neither fact bears on the relative justice of the Union and Confederate causes. |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Greg F. Date: 05 Aug 12 - 01:49 PM Thanks for the assist, Lighter. Well done. |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Amos Date: 05 Aug 12 - 01:49 PM I wonder about the assertion that The Unreconstructed Rebel was a parody. There's nothing in it that strikes me as parodic; certainly not comedic. There are thousands of songs about unpopular views and about grim events people would just as soon forget. But the solution to a distasteful past is not forgetting; it is confronting fully and honestly. Forgetting the Civil War is one of the things that produced the brutal slaughters of the Civil Rights era--dramatizing the buried anger instead of facing it squarely. Singing those songs is a good way for those long-ago positions and actions to be remembered. Not glorified but understood. That's my humble opinion anyway. Of course, that requires the intention to understand on the part of the listener, and there are some folks who can't hear "The Bonnie Blue Flag" without wanting to kill a few more Yankees. Maybe you just have to choose your audiences wisely. A |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 05 Aug 12 - 02:20 PM Amos, I can't prove that "I'm a Good Old Rebel" was intended satirically, but it seems likely. The author, Major James Innes Randolph, Jr. (1837-1887), was a Confederate topographical engineer as well as a lawyer who had been educated in New York State. After the war, he became a newspaper editor and an occasional sculptor. The song is printed in a semi-illiterate backwoods dialect, which tells me that Randolph is manufacturing a backwoods speaker utterly unlike himself. When nineteenth-century poets intended to be serious, they almost always wrote formally and with as much artistry as they could muster. What's more, the first critical mention of the song, in 1869, comments on its "happy vein of broad humor." Randolph's song (the one usually sung) differs considerably from the much nastier and more xenophobic version collected by the Warners many decades later. But the point is that it doesn't matter what Randolph intended. Nowadays, without some kind of explanation, the average audience will take his song as a straight glorification of killin' Yankees and hatin' the Freedmen's Bureau (not to mention the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence and the Yankee Eagle, etc., etc.). As I've said on another thread, most people just don't seem to "get" irony. |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Bonzo3legs Date: 05 Aug 12 - 02:24 PM "They bought him a box of tin soldiers He threw all the Generals away He smashed up the Sergeants and Majors Now he plays with his Privates all day." |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Henry Krinkle Date: 05 Aug 12 - 02:26 PM He burned their farms and made them starve. I attended a KKK rally once at Stone Mountain ,Georgia out of curiousity. The cross burning got rained out. But everyone was very nice to me. I wonder if there are any good Klan songs out there. (:-( D)= |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Aug 12 - 02:39 PM Of course you could refer to it as "the Second Civil War", in recognition of the fact that as many Americans were on the other side back in the time of the Revolution. But I imagine that might be too confusing for many people. |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Henry Krinkle Date: 05 Aug 12 - 02:48 PM You know Clark Gable channeled Groucho Marx for his role as Rhett Butler. (:-( P)= |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Amos Date: 05 Aug 12 - 03:07 PM The countryside was dark and still The old cross stood upon the hill. The cross it bore a flaming hood To hide its rotten heart of wood. He who travels with the Klan, He is a monster, not a man. For underneath his thin disguise I have seen him to his eyes. Mother I hear the iron sound Of footsteps on the frozen ground. (Segment from a poorly-remembered Klan song) The Klan are often chivalrous and mannerly individuals, some quite charismatic. They are none the less despicable for the acts they have undertaken collectively in the name of racial purity. If you want a real slice of life, I recommend Morris Dee's "A Lawyer's Journey". He spent forty years pulling those strings and exhuming the facts often at the risk of his own life. Brilliant guy. A |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Henry Krinkle Date: 05 Aug 12 - 03:15 PM Morris Dee. He should be hung,drawn and quartered. Him and his Southern Poverty shenanigans. (:-( P)= |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Henry Krinkle Date: 05 Aug 12 - 03:41 PM Morris Dees. Not Morris Dee.....see? http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2009/06/23/morris-dees-pathological-narcissist-and-ultra-creep/ |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Richard Bridge Date: 05 Aug 12 - 03:55 PM There would be I think legitimate concerns particularly outside the religion-obsessed USA (I would add, despite the treaty of Tripoli) that there is a risk that the USA may, historically, regress and become a heavily armed theocratic threat to the rest of the world. I submit that songs from the secessionist causes should be no more acceptable than the Horst Wessel Song or Die Lindenbaum. |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Henry Krinkle Date: 05 Aug 12 - 04:56 PM You sing what you want. You say what you want. And if someone doesn't like it they don't have to listen. |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: JedMarum Date: 05 Aug 12 - 08:54 PM Wow. I thought I was participating in a serious and genial discussion on a subject in which I have spent many years of study, and in which I still have a great deal of interest. But the vipers jumped in, spewing their ignorance and venom. Thankfully, the reasonable comments from reasonable people are easy enough to sort out - and the fools easy enough to ignore. |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: DannyC Date: 05 Aug 12 - 09:10 PM "The best estimate is that between 1880 and 1930, Southern lynch mobs summarily executed, without recourse to legal niceties, 3,320 blacks and 723 whites." (from "Better Day Coming" / Adam Fairclough) FDR created a Civil Rights Section (CRS) within the Justice Dept. in 1935. In 1942 the CRS instituted the first federal investigation of a lynching. This grim reality sits squarely between us here in the present and songs from the 1861-1865 Bloodbaths. I'd be very careful in selecting material - or perhaps I would first make sure that I'd read and thought about Ida B. Wells, W.E.B. Du Bois, Julian Bond and the martyred Medgar Evers - before I went out and sang a song from the Civil War Era here in Kentucky. |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: GUEST,mg Date: 05 Aug 12 - 09:40 PM I don't see why you couldn't sing one that was respectful and fairly generic..I miss my home/girl/mother/cow type of song. Southerners had an indefensible cause in the slavery issue, but Northerners were far from decent in their taking advantage of the terrible situation post-war. Misery enough on all sides. What is not needed is a feeling of superiority, condescension, scorn, holier than thou. We all participate in some sort of slavery..unless we consciously don't..in terms of our buying habits etc. And one thing is that is strangely not mentioned in discussing the Civil War is that a war was actually fought over it...oh yeah..forgot about that..that people left their homes and families to stamp out slavery..and they died horrible deaths in horrible battlefields or concentration camps to do so and they are almost never mentioned in that context. They might just have been unable to escape the draft and not known all the sociopolitical ramifications, but I think the average Irish or German immigrant (on either side)..or the Kentucky rifleman, or the Southern gentlemen thought he was doing the right thing. |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: DannyC Date: 05 Aug 12 - 10:40 PM My wife and I go out and sing nearly every Thursday night in downtown Lexington. In doing so we are playing music within 200 yards of a place where human beings were sold like livestock (in chains rather than in pens), within a few hundred yards of the family home of Mary Todd Lincoln who witnessed these barbaric human auctions, and within three (3) City blocks of Transylvania University where Jefferson Davis attended school. I've stood over the mountainside graves of my wife's Orphan Brigade ancestors, (Capt. This and Lt. That) and in the hollar where Red String bushwhackers sought, caught and killed her "rebel scout" relation on a snowy night in his home (Jan. 1864, I think). In fact, The Red String were opportunists seeking to grab the land (and the mineral rights attached thereto) The Red Strings' killing spree that night initiated Kentucky feuding that lasted for generations and nearly to our present day. Some people still call the County "Bloody Breathitt". Nah... Prolly best to just keep singing songs about lonely train whistles, long black veils, n' Blue Moons n' such... |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Bill D Date: 05 Aug 12 - 11:31 PM ...........amen, Jed. |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Henry Krinkle Date: 06 Aug 12 - 05:15 AM Have they changed the state song of Kentucky yet? My Old Kentucky Home?And the namecalling has begun. Vipers? Idiots? Fools? Stick to reasonable discussion rather than fighting words and you might have a tiny bit of credibility. If you are going to namecall, do it face to face instead of behind the safety of your cowardly keyboard. And I was born in Kentucky too. |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Richard Bridge Date: 06 Aug 12 - 07:11 AM I am struggling to see what you are going on about, Krinkle. Why do you want to sings songs (at least it seems you want to sing songs) glorifying slavery and lynch mobs? Do you offer a justification other than "I'll sing it if I want to"? Is that your real name? This is mine. |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: matt milton Date: 06 Aug 12 - 07:56 AM "You sing what you want. You say what you want. And if someone doesn't like it they don't have to listen." Yes. And if you have a repertoire of songs so hateful that all your audiences walk out, you won't get very far. Equally, not only do they not have to listen, but they can also elect to slow-handclap you, greet you with a sustained stony silence, heckle you or boo you offstage. These negotiations are what makes live music situations superior to recorded music albums: performer/audience interaction, which is in my experience more common in folk clubs than at rock gigs. Ususally it's of the genial variety, but that's not to say that an edgy or tense situation is a bad one. |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: GUEST,mg Date: 06 Aug 12 - 03:22 PM If you are getting state or federal money to put on a performance, I would hope that songs are not put in a performance intended to insult one side or the other, but to honor those who fought on either side..brother against brother, father against son in the border states. Ancestor against ancestor. Singing combined with smugness is not a pleasant combination. Singing combined with some sort of humbleness, as in there but for the grace of God go I, is, it seems to me anyway. |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: GUEST,mg Date: 06 Aug 12 - 03:29 PM I think I shall call that musical narcissism..as in I know all the answers, all the facets of any situation. My opinion is the only one, my song is the only one. I just avoid singers like that like the plague and would never sing most of the songs with that attitude. Other songs and singers I flock to.."as I have suffered so have you."" as Kipling said... |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Greg F. Date: 06 Aug 12 - 06:21 PM Well, Mary, I'll let Frederick Douglass comment on your post: Neither the victors nor the vanquished [in the Civil War]can hurl reproaches at each other, and each may well enough respect and honor the bravery and skill of the other. Each found in the other a foeman worthy of his steel. The fiery ardor and impetuosity of the one was only a little more than matched by the steady valor and patient fortitude of the other. Thus far we meet upon common ground, and strew choicest flowers upon the graves of the dead heroes of each respectively and equally. But this war will not consent to be viewed simply as a physical contest.... We must not be asked to put no difference between those who fought for the Union and those who fought against it, or between loyalty and treason. ... There was a right side and a wrong side in the late war, which no sentiment ought to cause us to forget, and while to-day we should have malice toward none, and charity toward all, it is no part of our duty to confound right with wrong, or loyalty with treason. ... Frederick Douglass Excerpts, Speech delivered at Union Square, New York City, on Decoration Day, May 30, 1878 |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Henry Krinkle Date: 06 Aug 12 - 07:24 PM I just want everyone to be able to sing what they like. No PC censorship. I love Blackface Minstrelsy. I don't care about singing in clubs. I don't drink or smoke and I don't like being around it. So I stay away.If I want to put on some greasepaint and burnt cork you can like it and stick around or you can go away.If you want to curse me, go ahead. I should be able to curse you back. It's called freedom of expression over here. Do you have freedom of speech and expression over there? |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Greg F. Date: 06 Aug 12 - 09:07 PM No Henry, its called being a jackass and a fucking idiot. And yes,unfortunately, you can find jackasses anywhere. |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Henry Krinkle Date: 07 Aug 12 - 03:25 AM Oh my goodness Greg F....Cursing and namecalling. Is that something your parents taught you to do? It's a substitute for violence,you know. Why do you want to be violent? It's immaturity of the highest order. I should think you nedd a spanking. Cheerio! |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Henry Krinkle Date: 07 Aug 12 - 03:28 AM Need. Sorry for the misspelling. (:-( D)= |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Henry Krinkle Date: 07 Aug 12 - 03:39 AM And the spanking would be me freely expressing myself. (:-( P)= |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: GUEST Date: 07 Aug 12 - 03:57 AM "I just want everyone to be able to sing what they like. No PC censorship. I love Blackface Minstrelsy. I don't care about singing in clubs. I don't drink or smoke and I don't like being around it. So I stay away.If I want to put on some greasepaint and burnt cork you can like it and stick around or you can go away.If you want to curse me, go ahead. I should be able to curse you back. It's called freedom of expression over here. Do you have freedom of speech and expression over there?" Well if you're only singing songs to yourself at home, there's nothing really to talk about. Nobody around to hear the song, so "you can like it and stick around or you can go away" doesn't really apply, does it? There isn't much "expression" there to be free about: defending freedom of expression is wholly unnecessary when there's not even anybody else around to get offended. But were you to "put on some greasepaint and burnt cork" in public and start performing, you should be aware that "freedom of expression" cuts both ways. It does not simply mean anyone has the right to say anything and the other person should just put up with it or leave. It means the audience has the right to "stick around" and boo, heckle etc. |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: GUEST,matt milton Date: 07 Aug 12 - 04:12 AM post above = cookieless moi. |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Henry Krinkle Date: 07 Aug 12 - 04:59 AM Boo me. Heckle me. Just don't resort to violence. And cursing in public is cosidered Disorderly Conduct. A misdemeanor. You'll be carted off to jail. And when you're online, you are considered to be in public. A friendly warning. (:-( D)= |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Henry Krinkle Date: 07 Aug 12 - 05:53 AM And about lynchings. If George Bush and Dick Cheney were lynched by a mob, eould you cheer? Or protest? Some folks deserve to be lynched. (:-( 0)= |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Henry Krinkle Date: 07 Aug 12 - 05:57 AM would. another misspelling.these tiny smartphone keypads are a pain in the arse. (:-( D)= |
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Subject: RE: US Civil war songs - civil to sing them ? From: Henry Krinkle Date: 07 Aug 12 - 07:04 AM And someone has to play the Devil's Advocate. Preaching to the choir is pretty dull and lifeless. (:-( D)= |
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