Why do people mess with the rhythm

Subject: Why do people mess with the rhythm
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 06:31 PM

Why oh why do they mess up..to me..some might just love it..the rhythm of a song.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhrvGwlmr9Q&feature=bf_next&list=PLC6D9494228C3EB27

Beautiful song, beautiful voice, wonderful orchestra in the background. I would not listen to it again for that reason. I really hate it when they do it..is it to be cute? Creative? Show that they are not bound to rhythm like people have been for millions of years of evolution?

Do others like it when this is done? mg

Subject: RE: Why do people mess with the rhythm
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 06:38 PM

I think Martin Carthy started it with Byker Hill - you better ask him.

Subject: RE: Why do people mess with the rhythm
From: Leadfingers
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 06:50 PM

Al - The Carthy 'Byker Hill'in 9/8 was to (I believe) the original tune - 'Elsie Marley' , so NOT a bastardisation like the Link
Though I have heard worse Allendales , MY gripe is that its a shortened (Only two verses) of an ENGLISH Victorian parlour ballad
from early Eighteen Forties .

Subject: RE: Why do people mess with the rhythm
From: Anglo
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 07:03 PM

I do believe that tune was Dorrington Lads. The Elsie Marley tune has a song of it's own:

Do you ken Elsie Marley, honey
The wife that sells the barley, honey
She lost her pocket and all of her money
At back of The Bush in the garden, honey.

A fun jig in 6/8.

Subject: RE: Why do people mess with the rhythm
From: Tootler
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 07:06 PM

Surely you know the rule by now. If the singer is Irish, the song, by definition MUST be Irish.

(regardless of the true origin)

Subject: RE: Why do people mess with the rhythm
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 07:12 PM

Well for that particular song, The Rose of Allendale (or Allandale) I'm never sure what is the "right rhythm" as the first version I ever heard was by the Corries and they do it in 4/4/ time, whereas in English sessions it seems to be sung slower and in 3/4.

One thing that really gets up my nose is having 4/4 tunes made into oom-ching-ching waltzes, notably "A Man's a Man for A' That" - it nearly makes me throw up every time I have to play it!

Subject: RE: Why do people mess with the rhythm
From: Leadfingers
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 07:23 PM

Back in History , Folk On Two had a Session Pianist and a Session tenor sing the Rose as published 1840 something , and Martin Carthy's
version as collectedfrom The Coppers in 1960 . There was , as I recall
one change of Lyric , and two changes in melody , as passed on from GrandDad Coppers book , transmitted through the Oral Tradition since it was a popular song in the eighteen forties . Written in London , so
defiantely NOT Irish - Allendale may even be in either Scotland or the
Borders !

Subject: RE: Why do people mess with the rhythm
From: meself
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 07:51 PM

"composed by Andrius Mamontovas" according to the link above. Now that doesn't sound very English OR Irish ... !

Subject: RE: Why do people mess with the rhythm
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 07:59 PM

That's pretty close to the way I've always hear the song. Can anyone provide a link to someone singing it in the "correct" rhythm?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Why do people mess with the rhythm
From: michaelr
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 08:20 PM

mg -- I think what they're trying to do is something like the Irish sean-nos ("old style") singing, in which the (unaccompanied) singer is not bound by the underlying meter of the lyrics, but is instead free to emphasize and stretch syllables, as well as improvise melodic ornamentation. This is a venerable tradition in the Irish-speaking areas (gaeltachts). Here is an example. Here is a man singing. I don't find it annoying at all.

Subject: RE: Why do people mess with the rhythm
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 11:07 PM

I listened for a few measures, mg. (I refer to the video referred to in the first post.) I don't like the goofy timing, the electronic echo effect in the voice, or the adenoidal singing. I nominate that recording for The Great Wastebasket in the Sky.

Subject: RE: Why do people mess with the rhythm
From: JedMarum
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 11:32 PM

I think it' lovely.

Of course I've heard other versions that I like too; other rhythms but this is still quite lovely.

Subject: RE: Why do people mess with the rhythm
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 14 Aug 12 - 01:43 AM

I once had an idea for two songs I thought would go really well together, me singing one while my daughter sang the other. She, who actually knows something about music, pointed out that one of the songs was in 3/4, the other, 4/4. But we did it anyway - I think we stretched the 3/4 into 4/4 to make it work.

I felt that, to paraphrase a quote from the war in Vietnam, we had to destroy that song in order to sing it.

Subject: RE: Why do people mess with the rhythm
From: banksie
Date: 14 Aug 12 - 02:36 AM

I noticed the announcement of a `composer' for this, though I think they really mean `arranger' or even just `record producer'. Here is the individual's Wikipedia entry - or at least a likely individual with that name:
`Andrius Mamontovas (born August 23, 1967 in Vilnius, Lithuania) is a Lithuanian rock musician, songwriter, actor, performer and record producer. He was one of the co-founders of the Lithuanian rock band Foje (in 1983). He is also one of the masterminds of the LT United project'.
Some how, I have my doubts.......

Subject: RE: Why do people mess with the rhythm
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 14 Aug 12 - 03:35 AM

I'm not sure what mg is getting at. To me the rhythm sounds a bit too regular, though not bad for an arrangement. At least it hasn't been forced into strict 3/4 or 4/4 which is one of pet hates - someone starting an air at a session and people joing in and trying to force it into strict waltz etc tempo.

Subject: RE: Why do people mess with the rhythm
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Aug 12 - 03:39 AM

Just listened - I don't think he has messed with the rhythm. I've certainly heard it sung at that speed before - just trying to think where.

Subject: RE: Why do people mess with the rhythm
From: Leadfingers
Date: 14 Aug 12 - 04:07 AM

From Wikipedia

"The Rose of Allendale" is an English song, with words by Charles Jeffreys and music by Sidney Nelson, composed in the 1840s. Because the song has been recorded by Paddy Reilly and Mary Black, many people mistakenly believe the song to be a (traditional) Irish song. Sometimes it is also believed to be a Scottish song.

Subject: RE: Why do people mess with the rhythm
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 Aug 12 - 04:11 AM

Why do people mess with the rhythm

Why do people mess with anything, you might say. We're all at liberty to do whatever we want with any musical form we try our hands at - and thank heavens that we have that kind of freedom. Think of Prokofiev and Shostakovitch in Stalinist Russia, being guided into composing the music that the state required (and adroitly subverting that requirement whenever they could).

We can do what the devil we want - and the devil take the hindmost. Have what you will - and pay for it. The listening public will, in the end, pronounce it a hit or a miss. As for that particular YT clip, I only know the tune vaguely and I don't care for that particular type of breathy singing and vaguely ambient orchestral backing - just my taste.

But let's not get straight-jacketed into never experimenting and playing around with things. If you were irritated by that YouTube video, here's one (by me) that will probably get you really annoyed :-)

Staten Island Steps

Subject: RE: Why do people mess with the rhythm
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 14 Aug 12 - 04:26 AM

Well said Will, why do people bother to tell us what they don't like? What is the point? Is to keep us from listening to something?

At least one someone enjoys something we have the possibility of liking it also.

L in C#

Subject: RE: Why do people mess with the rhythm
From: Musket
Date: 14 Aug 12 - 04:34 AM

I noticed years ago that some traditional songs can work with the tune everybody knows and expects but playing with the tempo or sometimes even the rhythm can put a whole new dimension to it.

I'm not saying every one that works for me works for others, but I do sometimes wonder why people get out of their armchair, tie their shoe laces, get in the car and travel to a folk club just to tell some poor sod they have got it wrong, it should sound like this....

There again, perhaps I'm the dozy sod for walking into the trap in the first place? I love the few local clubs I enjoy going to to these days. As well as being nice people, my interpretations are accepted and enjoyed rather than analysed.....

Subject: RE: Why do people mess with the rhythm
From: GUEST,Don Wise
Date: 14 Aug 12 - 04:46 AM

When one takes the time to read and look at the transcriptions made by Cecil Sharp, Percy Grainger etc., one quickly realises that theit source singers rarely sang in strict tempo- it was more a case of 'Rubato rules,OK'. The singers weren't uncertain about the timing since their variations were constant- same verse, same place every time. Our 'obsession' with the right 'rhythm' is surely a product of the old songs being forced into the straitjacket of our modern musical notation system.

What about Carthy's "Sovay"?

Can't say I like the version of "Rose of Allendale" under discussion here, but that's got nothing to do with any 'tampering' with the rhythm.

In the end, "It ain't what you do, it's the way that you do it!"

Don

Subject: RE: Why do people mess with the rhythm
From: Mo the caller
Date: 14 Aug 12 - 04:53 AM

In my view there are ways and ways of 'messing with the rythm'

If you are singing/playing and you want to stretch and bend for 'artistic effect', well it's up to you. (Others may like or loathe your interpretation)

If there are dancers and your playing, you'd better keep the beat going or you'll trip them up (unless it's Morris 'slows' when tempo is dictated by how high the dancer can leap, I think)

If someone has started a tune in a session and you don't keep to their rythm, then iyou are being rude - and if they are playing it in an 'expressive' way and you can't join in, then it had better be a solo.

My personnal moan is that many tunes (e.g. waltzes) have a note at the end of the line that shoul last 2 bars, and some session players cut it short.

Subject: RE: Why do people mess with the rhythm
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 Aug 12 - 04:56 AM

Quite right Mo - I was referring particularly to solo interpretations of tunes/songs in my post. Playing in sessions and for dancing certainly requires more conventional discipline.

Subject: RE: Why do people mess with the rhythm
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Aug 12 - 05:09 AM

Because they can. It's part of the folk process.

Subject: RE: Why do people mess with the rhythm
From: Mo the caller
Date: 14 Aug 12 - 05:14 AM

Of course there are some dance musicians who like to tease the dancers.
E.g. Playing the rhythm straight but without a strongly accented first beat. Maybe a syncopated tune
Or with a dance like Swedish Masquerade that has a tempo change in it, playing the the parts and a different speed each time so that you never quite know what's coming.

Exhilarating if you are an experienced dancer and good listener, but at a PTA you wonder who the band are there for.

Subject: RE: Why do people mess with the rhythm
From: Bert
Date: 14 Aug 12 - 07:19 AM

Because they are singers. I do it all the time.

Subject: RE: Why do people mess with the rhythm
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 14 Aug 12 - 07:55 AM

I believe that he original tune to 'Byker Hill' was, according to Allen's Tyneside songs, 'Off She Goes'. But the premise that the originator of this thread states, is pretty much correct. Try playing, 'Jingle Bells' using any notes or indeed no notes (just bang it out on a table) it will still be recognisable as 'Jingle Bells' because tunes are defined mostly by their rhythm rather than their tonality. This means that in changing the rhythm you are essentially changing the tune.

Subject: RE: Why do people mess with the rhythm
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 14 Aug 12 - 09:46 AM

Why do people mess with rhythm?

1. For the joy of it

2. To emphasize important concepts in the song

3. So they can claim copyright on a piece of commercial schlock. Somebody else has already done most of the work, but they want $$$ off the efforts of the original composer.

I think reason 3 applies to that rendition.

Subject: RE: Why do people mess with the rhythm
From: Howard Jones
Date: 15 Aug 12 - 06:18 AM

The arrangement isn't to my taste, but I'm not sure that they've "messed up" the rhythm. I've never seen the music or lyrics for the original song, and for me the definitive version is the Coppers', and some of the phrasing in this version seems to echo theirs. Taking that as the benchmark, Nic Jones altered the rhythm more than this with his (wonderful) version.

If they've put it into say reggae or tango rhythm then I can see why you might complain, but I can't see myself that they've done anything particularly disrespectful with this arrangement, although it's not my cup of tea.

Subject: RE: Why do people mess with the rhythm
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Aug 12 - 06:52 AM

I wonder who the best 'messer up of rhythms' is. I think we all get an uncontrollable urge to speed up, and fiddle about with songs. Its just our fingers playing about, most of the time.

A sort of musical delinquency. like smashing up telephone boxes.

Subject: RE: Why do people mess with the rhythm
From: Musket
Date: 15 Aug 12 - 07:08 AM

Messing with the rhythm makes you last longer..

Allegedly.

I'll get me etc

Subject: RE: Why do people mess with the rhythm
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Aug 12 - 10:02 AM

As a lifelong Rhythm Guitar player I take an interest in all this.

For whatever reason this recording from the original soundttrack of a sombre Lithuanian movie
came to anyone here's attention
I've listened to it twice...

errrrmmm... what rhythm ????

it's a new-agey boring dirge !!!

Where's the throbbing bass guitar and pounding drums
this thread title lead me to hope for !!!???

Subject: RE: Why do people mess with the rhythm
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Aug 12 - 10:05 AM

i believe that some people are doing this sort of thing to draw attention to themselves, and to be different for the sake of being different a bit, who was that did somemusical irrelevance in the middle of lovely joan, i dont mean vaughan williams but one of todays up and coming folk pop stars

Subject: RE: Why do people mess with the rhythm
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Aug 12 - 10:20 AM

"Where's the throbbing bass guitar and pounding drums
this thread title lead me to hope for !!!???"

Here ya go. Crank the volume.

Subject: RE: Why do people mess with the rhythm
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 15 Aug 12 - 10:42 AM

I think what your hearing (I hear it too, and it's damned annoying), is a distortion created somewhere in the editing process by the use of a time-compression application, which they use to stretch or shrink sound samples so they match up in length(and so a piece of music matches up with a certain number of frames of film)

This is the sort of thing they use in rap/hip-hop recordings to make bits of speech match the beat. It is the audio equivalent of "justify" button in the word processor that lines up the ends of all the sentences on a page by either adding to or subtracting from the spaces between words to create a nice clean block effect.

The thing is that, depending on how well or badly the editing is done, some to all of us can hear the places it was squeezed to fit.

Subject: RE: Why do people mess with the rhythm
From: GUEST,foggers
Date: 15 Aug 12 - 12:33 PM

I agree it is not an inspiring version of the song, and the breathy, new Age-y Cod-Celtic vibe is worse than instant mashed potato for that cloying plastic quality.

However I think there is some mileage in the points being made; singer of ballads in a number of traditions will play around with tempo for dramatic emphasis.

In this instance I think Stim is spot on in suggesting the use of some time compression tech in order to synchronise with the frames of the film it accompanies.

Subject: RE: Why do people mess with the rhythm
From: Allan Conn
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 02:22 AM

"Allendale may even be in either Scotland or the
Borders"

Try saying that is a pub in Kelso, jedburgh or Hawick :-)

Subject: RE: Why do people mess with the rhythm
From: Allan Conn
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 02:23 AM

Sorry type! try saying that in a pub......

Subject: RE: Why do people mess with the rhythm
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 03:30 AM

Tacky shmaltzy version of a tacky schmaltzy arrangement of a tacky schmaltzy song. Shoot everyone involved.

Subject: RE: Why do people mess with the rhythm
From: Ole Juul
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 05:24 AM

The rendition is arrhythmic and I think the singer in that video is particularly unsavoury, in the musical sense. Out of respect for the original poster, I tried several times to listen to it, but it makes feel really bad. What an unpleasant experience! It just makes me angry and depressed. Music isn't supposed to do that to a person.

Subject: RE: Why do people mess with the rhythm
From: CET
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 08:01 PM

Talking about Byker Hill, I don't think there's much to complain about the rythm I this performance:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VBzwXDyOo4o

But it certainly is weird. The counter tenors add a certain je ne sais quoi. (can somebody convert the link to a blue clicky?)

Subject: RE: Why do people mess with the rhythm
From: Tootler
Date: 17 Aug 12 - 03:36 PM

Blue Clicky

http://youtu.be/VBzwXDyOo4o

Agreed about the rhythm, but perhaps a little too polite. I'm used to hearing Byker Hill belted out in a pub!

Subject: RE: Why do people mess with the rhythm
From: Tootler
Date: 18 Aug 12 - 02:30 PM

That said, the singers were clearly enjoying themselves.

Subject: RE: Why do people mess with the rhythm
From: kendall
Date: 18 Aug 12 - 03:58 PM

Singers are free to do a song any way they wish; but in this case I'm with MG. Just do the damn song! If it's a good song it's doesn't need anyone screwing around with it.
I like Mary Black's version of this one.

Hearing someone mess with our national anthem is like waving a red flag in front of a bull to me!

Subject: RE: Why do people mess with the rhythm
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 08:16 PM

Ok, the 2 time signatures for the same song!

Mary Black in 3/4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMGywGqf7wI


The Corries in 4/4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQPR-kNAWqQ

And the Dubliners in 4/4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RglO3ONxFAg


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: RE: Why do people mess with the rhythm
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 08:25 PM

Allendale: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allendale,_Northumberland

And there's an Allandale between Cumbernauld and Falkirk - not nearly such a romantic ring to it!

Subject: RE: Why do people mess with the rhythm
From: Allan Conn
Date: 26 Aug 12 - 03:52 AM

Though the village of Allandale near Falkirk was only built in the 20thC! Was the area already known as that?

Subject: RE: Why do people mess with the rhythm
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 Aug 12 - 10:30 AM

Problem here is that the OP hasn't really thought about the subject box. mg is trying to criticise one particular arrangement of a song, but the thread title is actually much wider ranging. Of course one of the things that gives us the main characteristic of folk song is the variation, and that can apply to text, tune, rhythm, pitch etc....