Can a pop song become traditional?

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 04:19 AM

"I want to lick your balls until you come"??

I think 'traditional' songs are usually a little more subtle than that example, often with innuendo & humour

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Jim Bainbridge
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 12:57 PM

First time I heard Bob Davenport in 1964(he's well known for plain speaking) a floor singer got up and spent fully 3 minutes explaining the song he was about to sing. Bob stood up and shouted from thn back- 'Sing the fucking song man, stop talking about it'
The current discussion brought this to mind, can't think why

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 01:49 PM

exactly Jim, its called the Dunbeacon reply, HAVE YOU DUN SPEAKING THEN DUN BEACON

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 03:38 PM

Discussion's cool. Surely much of the appeal of a song is its provenance; I'd go so far as to say that its provenance accounts for its numinosity (or is it numinouness?). At a Fylde Festival singaround earlier today (about 2 hours ago) I happily sourced my rendering of Out With my Gun in the Morning to the singing of Jimmy Knights with reference to both the Broadside in the Axon Collection and Jim Causeley's track on the Woodbine & Ivy Band album. If someone had said Sing the fucking song man, stop talking about it I would have told them that whilst never being numinous ourselves, we Traddies are nevertheless drawn to the mystery that, in the pure sweet communion of simply singing a song, radiates its divine charge in our hearts / souls and in this way are our lives made complete. This is but one of the Bounties of Traditional Song and we do well to explore the source and account for it by way of as wide a credit as we can. Chapter and, indeed, verse. Amen, amen, amen, amen.

Who said Folk was a religion?

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 04:09 PM

Jack,
It's a case of time and place. I can easily talk for an hour on the provenance/history/geography of some of the songs I sing, but wouldn't dream of doing this in a singaround where you're often lucky to get 2 songs in. If I'm perfoming to a historical group I might do this but to people who've come to hear singing the briefest of intros suffices. I'm afraid I veer more towards Bob's colourful and brief statement.

And we'll all be glad when you've got to the end of the dictionary and got it out of your system.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 03:43 AM

I'm not talking of a lecture, Steve - just a wee introduction to place the song in its context, for the benefit of those who don't know, or might not be familiar with it. It's nice to do that without having some pumped up boor bawling out to Sing the fucking song man - much less resort to personal sidewipes about dictionaries.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: theleveller
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 05:02 AM

"First time I heard Bob Davenport in 1964(he's well known for plain speaking) a floor singer got up and spent fully 3 minutes explaining the song he was about to sing. Bob stood up and shouted from thn back- 'Sing the fucking song man, stop talking about it'"

Ignorant bastard! There's plain speaking and there's downright fucking rude. If anyome said that to me they'd get a pretty curt response at the time and a warning afterwards that it they ever did it again they wouldn't be able to sing until they'd had a lot of cosmetic dentistry.

Personally, I like to hear the provenance of songs (OK, maybe not so much in a singaround). When he ran the Osmotherly Folk Gathering, Richard Grainger has a Sunday lunchtime session where singer/songwriters were invited to talk about the background to their songs before singing them. I really enjoyed that.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Musket
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 06:29 AM

I like to give a bit of background to a song, not too much but a bit. I suppose that if we are to call something "folk" it includes the provenance as the idea is to preserve old traditional songs as well as introduce new songs to the genre.

Which of course is why a pop song can become traditional.



If a song is about an event, a person, a capture of time in any event, it is preserving an experience, which is precisely what we want to preserve traditional songs for.

Cool for Cats describes my life at the time. I Don't Like Mondays was sung by Dave Burland whilst in the charts and he described it as a new folk song. Smoke on the Water is about a fire in Switzerland. Etc etc etc

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 10:06 PM

See my lyric request for Run, Joey Run?
A pop song very likely to become traditional one day.
Just you wait and see.
(:-( ))=

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 11:56 PM

Just a thought-
Since this discussion is pointless, and has been for the past century or so, why not start over by soliciting definitions of "folk" and "traditional"? Otherwise we wind up with arguments about whether an elephant is a quadruped, a vertebrate, a mammal, or a beast of burden.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Ole Juul
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 04:37 AM

Since this discussion is pointless, and has been for the past century or so, why not start over by soliciting definitions of "folk" and "traditional"? Otherwise we wind up with arguments about whether an elephant is a quadruped, a vertebrate, a mammal, or a beast of burden.

That's easy. "Folk" is a mammal and "traditional" is a beast of burden. :)

Seriously, there is indeed an elephant in the room. That, is the tendency to slide effortlessly back and forth between academically aware practitioners, such as we mostly see here, and society in general.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 05:47 AM

Second try!

Jack, apologies, it slipped out, but you do have a strong tendency to use vocabulary no one else on here understands.

Dick, agreed, and I really like Ole's follow-up.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,raymond greenoaken
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 02:42 PM

I understand it all! Honest. I have a dictionary too.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 03:24 PM

'Sing the fucking song man, stop talking about it'

I'm always amused (or possibly bemused) when people make the effort to post to a music discussion group to complain that discussing music is boring and a waste of time.

Also agree with theleveller: I hope the singer went and punched the offending heckler on the nose for such bad manners.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,raymond greenoaken
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 06:11 PM

Punch Bob Davenport? Are you hard enough?

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 06:45 PM

Even as I wrote it, I was thinking about kicking Bishop Brennan up the arse...

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: theleveller
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 03:14 AM

"Punch Bob Davenport? Are you hard enough?"

Fortunately I've never come across this "gentleman" whoever he is, but let's just say that I doubt if he can hold a candle to the hunt followers, dog-fight organisers and badger-baiters I've come up against in my time.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 03:53 AM

leveller ~"Whoever he is" ··· Are you serious! He might have his yobbish and aggressive side; but Bob is one of the most distinguished singers of the British Folk Revival. Try googling if you don't believe me.

~M~

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: theleveller
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 07:43 AM

Yes, vaguely recall the name from way back in the mists of time. He didn't have much impact of the Yorkshire folk scene I was involved in and I don't think I've ever seen or heard him. He obviously has an over-inflated sense of his own importance.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 02:44 PM

Bob certainly had an agenda and didn't suffer fools gladly, but under the brash exterior is a heart of gold. He lives in London nowadays and still turns up at the occasional do. He was an influential singer in his early days being backed by bands like the Rakes. Impact on the Yorkshire scene? I saw him perform in my neck of Yorkshire many times.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 06:35 AM

Of course there are certain cunning individuals who can turn their scolarly intros into golden entertainment without veering into the Badlands of Folk Comedy even in the setting of one of the Fylde Festivals less desirable venues. We witnessed this on Saturday night even as the MC fumbled about the place trying to figure out how to work the lights and the ghostly ectoplasmic fug of the Wheeltappers and Shunters club hung in the stale air undisturbed by anything brighter than a lighter since 1970 at least (somehow, you just know the Shirley Bassey Sink anecdote is set here). But, undaunted, and with the sort of gifted artistry that sorts out Men from Boys, we were lifted (nay transported) into the more wholesome realms of Traditional Song & Ballad (& more besides) in such a way as to quite ignore the oppressive horror of the place. Mr Brian Peters, to you, sir, I doff my cap.

We didn't stay long enough to see The Emily Portman Trio, but we loved her set the following day at Moseley. Her music is an exquisitely woven filigree tenderness ideally suited for the rainbow colours, smiling painted faces & verdant parkland setting that typifies the Psychedelic Arcadia that is MoFo. I couldn't help but wonder how her particular flower would have faired in the sinister gloom of the Gasworks Club. Shame we didn't hang round long enough to find out really, but, like Brian, I bet she sent the shadows fleeing away...

Then, doubt not, ye fearful
The Eternal is King
Up, heart, and be cheerful,
And lustily sing:
What chariots, what horses
Against us shall bide
While the Stars in their courses
Do fight on our side?

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 08:15 AM

I think the key words here are "3 minutes" and "floorsinger"!

Effectively that's making your intro the same length as someone else's entire floorspot! That's saying "my song is more important than your song". I'm willing to bet that that floorsinger probably went on to sing a song that was a lot longer than everyone else's too. There's always one...

(I went to a screening of "Cracked Actor", the 1974 David Bowie documentary, at the ICA on Sunday. Afterwards there was a Q&A with the director. One particularly obsessive audience member just didn't seem to understand the concept: his question turned out to be a three questions, prefaced by a lengthy rambling preamle, and the microphone had to be positively wrestled away from him)

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 08:18 AM

otoh many traditional song benefit from a programme note. Obviously, discretion as to length and detail is essential, but it would be a pity if all traditional material were to be sung entirely 'from cold', perhaps to the mystification of much of the audience.

~M~

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 08:28 AM

at the risk of sinking up to my neck into the "what is folk?" quagmire...

it has often struck me that the closest thing we have to a folkloric "shared song culture" today is that provided by Glee and X Factor.

After an episode of Glee, there will suddenly and instantaneously be hundreds of thousands of people who know the song "First Time Ever I Saw your Face" or "Hallelujah", or whichever song from the last 50 years of recorded popular music the programme's producers have decided to recuperate.

The next day, children in school playgrounds know the song, and share it on their phones.

One might say something analagous about the function that superhero movies plays in terms of narrative and myth: today's equivalents of folktales and mythical archetypes are Batman, Spiderman et al. The speed at which the film companies decide to "reboot" the franchise with different actors is in its own way testament to the mythic potency of Iron Man, Hulk and co.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 08:56 AM

Blandiver,

It's quite possible that I'm very dim, but I really don't understand what Psychedelic Arcadia that is MoFo means.

Could you elucidate please?

Thanks,

Ed

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 10:20 AM

I really don't understand what Psychedelic Arcadia that is MoFo means.

MoFo = Mosely Folk Festival - or so it said on our handsome purple plastic wrist bands.

Psychedelic - Well, the whole vibe was like Glastonbury 1984 in miniature & it brought me back to the whole free festival scene that I used to revel in as a younger man, only it wasn't free, but the vibes were beautiful and the music was beautiful too. We heard amazing sets from Emily Portman, Sunjay Brayne, Telling the Bees and Ian A Anderson's False Beards and it felt utterly idyllic. Even several hallowed members of Steeleye Span said how much they enjoyed our set.

Arcadia - This is mythic realm of Nymphs, Shepherds, sunshine & idleness. Backstage we were handfeeding the wildfowl on the wooded lake before going on to do our set of Field-Hollerin' Mom 'n' Pop Feral Weirdlore and I looked out and - things was cool, you know? I saw beautiful nymphs laughing with handsome young shepherds and all in perfect contented idleness. Wandering around the festival site afterwards we bought beautiful clothes for autumnal wear; there were storytellers, jig-dolls, pole lathes, tarot readings, Chinese zither players and lots of happy painted faces and not a curmudgeonly folky in sight.

Thus : the Psychedelic Arcadia that is MoFo. And all a very long way from the Gasworks Club in Fleetwood.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: theleveller
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 10:40 AM

"I think the key words here are "3 minutes" and "floorsinger"!"


No, the keywords are: 'Sing the fucking song man, stop talking about it'. A quiet word afterwards might have been appropriate but to speak that that to someone in front of the whole room is disgusting. Only an ignorant boor would behave like that - I don't care what his credentials are in the folk revival. No-one, but no-one would ever get away with speaking to me like that.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 10:59 AM

Thank you, Blandiver.

A google search for MoFo suggested something entirely different...

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 11:01 AM

Well he used a naughty word which he shouldn't have. He could of course have said something a little less hostile. Like "are you going to sing this song then?" or something.

But I've been tempted to heckle when I've experienced people hogging other people's time in situations like that. it's inconsiderate.

Like when you're at an Open Mic and you get three songs each: there's always one (usually a pony-tailed middle-aged guy with an expensive guitar) whose first song is about the length of other people's three. And then his second's even longer. And then his third... you get the idea.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: theleveller
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 11:20 AM

No, it's not the naughty word - it's the arrogance to think that you can bawl someone out in public and get away with it. Yes, I agree it can be annoying and inconsiderate when someone hogs the 'stage' but that's not the way to deal with it unless you want a full-scale brawl on your hands - which is exactly what would have happened (and frequently did) if you'd shouted at someone like that in a Hull docklands pub on a Saturday night.

A good MC can handle situations like that in a diplomatic way.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 11:45 AM

I've bawled people out in public and gotten away with it. I've bawled people out in public and not gotten away with it. On the (few) occasions I've done it, across decades of gig-going, I don't think arrogance has had anything to do with it: it's always been because I thought the guy onstage was being an asshole.

Yeah, this particular one's a bad example, because the guy in question probably wasn't an asshole; he just didn't have a very good sense of floorspot etiquette.

But let's say the guy had been wittering on for longer - FIVE minutes, say. Would I be "bawling him out in public" if I said something like "We haven't got all night mate!" or something? Cos I don't see anything wrong with it - and have been known to make those kind of comments. In fact, I'm by no means unique: one of the NICE things about folk clubs is that a lot of the audience will know each other, and so heckling (generally of the genial/appropriate/humorous variety) is a direct result.

Of course, outside folk clubs - at small-venue rock/indie/punk venues I've played at - you hear far worse things. In fact, at a punk gig, depending on tone of voice "just play the fucking song" could even generate a laugh: I wouldn't be at all surprised if I've played gigs at which someone might have shouted that, given the number of pisshead musicians I've played with over the years.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,raymond greenoaken
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 12:48 PM

We're getting a bit worked up here about an anecdote from nearly fifty years ago. Jim Bainbridge hasn't been back to put his original post into context, so we're left with several questions unanswered.

1. "fully three minutes" Did Jim actually time this floor singer's peroration? Or did it just "feel" like three minutes? Sometimes even half a minute can feel like considerably longer. We don't even know from Jim's account whether time was at a premium on this occasion.

2. Did Bob Davenport know the singer personally? That would make a big difference in terms of the social dynamics.

3. Did BD utter his words in the boorish tone the account suggests? Or was it good-humoured badinage?

4. Was BD familiar with the song in question? He may merely have been impatient about hearing stuff that he already knew.

Without knowing any of the above, it's hard to form any general principles. Personally speaking, when it comes to traditional songs in performance, I'm always hungry for any information about them. Even the Child number can come in useful. And some songs just need more explication than others. It's all down to the performer's judgement at the end of the day.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 01:04 PM

Thanks, Mr. Blandiver, for the kind words and that rather hilarious account of the Fleetwood Gasworks Club. It might surprise one or two readers to know that regular Mudcat adversaries can greet one another like long-lost friends when they meet. It's only a bit of chat, after all.

Glad you enjoyed Moseley, and I'm sorry I missed Emily Portman. Now back to the Davenport trial.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 03:25 PM

It is worth noting that theleveller has chosen to pass harsh judgement on words spoken a half century ago by someone who he knows nothing about, in a situation that he knows nothing about, and which were recollected only for the purpose of telling any amusing story.

Those of us that the teller sought to amuse know certain things about such tales:

1.) They are intended to entertain.

2) As such, they may not be strictly factual.

3) Even if, on the odd chance that they are factually accurate, the statute of limitations on offenses committed has expired long ago.

4) Even if there were a fourth item for this list, it wouldn't be worth bothering about it.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 03:29 PM

Thanks for the perspective reality check, Raymond.

50 years ago many folk clubs were not the gentile, sedate arenas that survive today. Many of those present were rising working class background and quite heavy drinking was the norm, before the drink-drive laws. Bob liked a drink like most of the others. Just adding a little bit of context.

I'll get me coat!

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 03:41 PM

Do you think a TV theme song can become a traditional?
Gilligan's Island? Hazel? The Love Boat? Three's Company?
(:-( ))=

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 03:45 PM

Absolutely!

I'm Popeye the sailor man.....
Try telling the playground song collectors it's not traditional!

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 05:48 PM

I read as much of this as I could stand, then skipped to the bottom to add my two cents' worth. Some of you already know my position on this topic ~ so feel free to skip this, if so inclined..

As a (retired) street performer, acoustic guitar and vocal, I always made it a point to construct my repertoire using selections (A) that I know and can perform credibly and (B) that people, in general, like and recognize ~ and might, for example, be motivated to sing (i.e., "sing-along") on a long bus ride or around a campfire.

Such a repertoire includes quite a few "popular" songs written and recorded in recent decades, and does NOT include songs that are without-a-doubt "traditional" but which are obscure and unlikely to arouse audience interest.

Does this define "folk"? For many (e.g., Cecil Sharp), obviously not.

But for me, such songs DO comprise the "folk culture" of our 21st-century, electronically-linked, world-wide community of musicians and listeners ~ in very much the same way that a given selection of traditional songs may have defined the folk culture of a 19th century fishing village or an 18th-century farming community.

I would consider, for example, that a number of Beatles songs have attained "folk" status under my definition ~ but that a precious few compositions by "folkie" singer-songwriters have achieved anywhere near the kind of widespread recognition that earns a place in our contemporary canon of "people's music."

Another thought: if you consider blues to be folk music (even if you restrict your definition to acoustically-played blues songs), it is almost impossible to exclude many songs with known composers.

I will draw the line somewhere though; to me, the Coke commercial about teaching the world to sing is NOT a folk song. But maybe that's only because I don't like it very much at all...

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 11:08 PM

So, you think something is a folk song if folks are singing it? Works for me.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Sep 12 - 12:56 AM

Aaaaarrrrrggggghhhhh! ~~ Bring on the Bloody Horse...!

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: theleveller
Date: 05 Sep 12 - 02:48 AM

"quite heavy drinking was the norm, before the drink-drive laws."

...and the onset of weak bladders! Ah, happy days :)

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 05 Sep 12 - 04:35 AM

Re: Bob Davenport

Has no-one heard of the ancient art of folk club heckling? Too many soft southerners amongst the respondents here?!

Re; Pop Songs - It depends if you think the term has any validity outside the semi-academic world of the current folk club/festival environment. Folk is a term used by the semi-academics that dwell there/here and describes whatever they want it to mean. In the world they seek to describe (rather than the one they inhabit)I would say it had no meaning. True some "traditional" singers would distinguish between songs of different heritage but I doubt they used the classification "folk".

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: theleveller
Date: 05 Sep 12 - 05:19 AM

"Too many soft southerners amongst the respondents here?!"

You looking for a fat lip, sunshine? I was born and bred in Yorkshire, playing folk clubs there from the age of 16 and spending many a happy Saturday night in the rougher pubs of Hull dodging the fists (not always successfully) of trawlermen and dockers.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Ole Juul
Date: 05 Sep 12 - 05:25 AM

AC: Has no-one heard of the ancient art of folk club heckling? Too many soft southerners amongst the respondents here?!

I remember at one gig, someone piped up from the back of the room: "play something you know!". I knew the person, and thought it was quite amusing. Indeed it was a friendly gesture and I wasn't the least offended.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 05 Sep 12 - 05:28 AM

Gosh!
You sound like a real stampeder!
(:-( O)=

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Ole Juul
Date: 05 Sep 12 - 05:42 AM

Folk is a term used by the semi-academics that dwell there/here and describes whatever they want it to mean.

To be fair, I don't think it's that vague. They clearly use the term to describe their particular kind of popular music from their particular culture. That's pretty specific. I note that there is little talk of Chinese music in this context, and even (as I pointed out at the beginning of this thread) Danish "folk" music does not fit the current English/American use of the word - and Denmark is only a few miles away.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Sep 12 - 03:31 PM

Ole,
Welcome. I have a great fondness for Danish ballads. I have a Danish dictionary which I occasionally use but sadly I don't speak Danish (and it's quite likely your English is better than mine). I'm intrigued about the Danish use of the word 'folk'. Can you enlighten us on this please?

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Sep 12 - 03:46 PM

I only understand anglo saxon, which has proliferation of four letter words.
try folk off cos this fred is much ado abaht nowt

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Sep 12 - 05:26 PM

And Dick's English is obviously much worse than mine.

Subject: RE: Can a pop song become traditional?
From: johncharles
Date: 05 Sep 12 - 06:52 PM

Hwæt! We Gardena         in geardagum,
þeodcyninga,         þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas         ellen fremedon.

Just for Dick.