BS: Too obese to execute

Subject: BS: Too obese to execute
From: Wesley S
Date: 18 Sep 12 - 02:33 PM

Maybe I'm weird but this story stuck me as funny. Especially the part about "Indeed, given his unique physical and medical condition there is a substantial risk that any attempt to execute him will result in serious physical and psychological pain to him,"



Convicted killer says he's too fat to be executed
11:42 am September 18, 2012, by George Mathis AP


A convicted killer who became "morbidly obese" in prison says he's now too fat to be executed.

Ronald Post, who pleaded guilty in 1985 to killing a hotel clerk in Ohio, now weighs almost 500 pounds. He is scheduled to be executed in January, but has filed papers in federal court arguing his death by lethal injection would create severe problems for executioners.

First of all, his thick layer of fat would make it difficult of doctors to find a vein. Ohio executes inmates with a single dose of pentobarbital, usually injected through the arms.

And then there's the matter of the flimsy metal gurneys. Post thinks his immense girth would break those.

"Indeed, given his unique physical and medical condition there is a substantial risk that any attempt to execute him will result in serious physical and psychological pain to him, as well as an execution involving a torturous and lingering death," the federal filing said.

Post, 53, has tried to lose weight. His request for gastric bypass surgery was denied. He's been encouraged not to walk because he's at risk for falling, and severe depression has contributed to his inability to limit how much he eats, his filing said.

While at the Mansfield Correctional Institution, Post "used that prison's exercise bike until it broke under his weight," according to the filing. He now uses a wheelchair.

Post killed Slumber Inn hotel clerk Helen Grace Vantz Dec. 15, 1983, in Elyria, Ohio. He shot the 53-year-old woman in the back of the head twice and escaped with $100 and a 13-inch black and white TV set.

Vantz's son, William, laughed Monday when he heard about Post's request, according to The Cleveland Plain Dealer. Then he became serious.

"I don't care if they have to wheel him in on a tractor-trailer; 30 years is too long," William Vantz said.

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: gnu
Date: 18 Sep 12 - 02:45 PM

If they still have the murder weapon, I have a suggestion.

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Sep 12 - 02:45 PM

I'd say the correct thing to do is truck in a couple hundred Big Macs and let the boy go out happy with a heart attack...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Sep 12 - 02:48 PM

He is in prison. They supply his food. He doesn't need surgery. They need to cut his portions.

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Sep 12 - 02:58 PM

Or following Bobert's lead, how about a steady diet of bacon-cheeseburgers, topped off with a dessert of deep-fried twinkies?

Lotsa between meal snacks. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: meself
Date: 18 Sep 12 - 03:07 PM

"First of all, his thick layer of fat would make it difficult of doctors to find a vein."

Are there actually "doctors" involved in the process of execution? If so, I wonder how they reconcile their behaviour with the Hippocratic Oath?

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 18 Sep 12 - 03:08 PM

He committed the crime in 1983. It's 2012. When people wait for a long period of time, they tend to get hungry

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Sep 12 - 03:22 PM

It wouldn't be the first time that we here in the Buckeye state had a problem in executions.

One of the last and most bizarre executions here in Ohio before they stopped the death penalty (it's on again now obviously) was actually held on Halloween in 1953 at the Ohio Penitentiary in Columbus. Frank Howard had been an employee of the Baltimore and Ohio railroad for almost 25 years. He had started out as flagman on freight trains and eventually worked his way up through the ranks to become the conductor on one of the B&O's most prestigious passenger trains, the Cumberland Valley Limited.

After a few years on that run he had come up with a small gang of porters and baggagemen to aid in his scheme which involved the theft of specific items of value from the rooms and luggage of wealthier passengers. He had this carefully crafted so as not to be blatantly noticeable, ie, they never took entire cases or anything that would lead anyone to believe they had been robbed, but rather had perhaps misplaced or lost a particular item....or left it at home. Being the conductor on the train, Howard would listen to the passengers and generally be able to convince them that a report wasn't needed and on the few occasions it was, the railroad saw no problem. Things were reported missing on trains all the time.

It worked pretty well and wasn't a huge moneymaker, but it effectively doubled the salries of all involved with a few extra bucks for Howard, over and above his share. This became apparent to one of his henchman named Washington who confronted Howard on it. Howard was a man with a hot temper and perhaps Washington was cowed by the rage. In any case, he backed down and came up with a new plan. Washington decided he'd do a little freelancing. This of course blew the whole carefully done scheme of Frank Howard. Howard walked into Union station in Columbus and in full view of a hundred people, shot Washington dead.

Howard claimed that Washington was a thief and escaping which sounded good, but before too long, Howard's other men began to talk and the whole thing was exposed. Howard was arrested, charged, and convicted of first degree murder along with the assorted thefts. He received the death sentence and after all of the appeals had been exhausted, he was scheduled for execution in the electric chair for October 31, 1953.

He was strapped in and shaved, wet-down and hooked up. At the appointed time the switch was pulled and Howard's body became rigid and then trembled violently. After 20 seconds the switch was turned off but Howard was still alive. After a brief conference it was decided to increase the voltage and time. First they checked the equipment which seemed to be functioning. This done, after 45 seconds and smoke coming from his body, Howard was found to still be alive! Once again they upped both voltage and time, but again the result was a living and breathing Frank Howard.

At this point, the priest, the warden, and the doctor decided that the humane thing to do was to give him an injection. The only thing the doctor had was morphine with which they overdosed him and 20 minutes later he was declared legally dead. After removing the body they went through another series of tests on the chair and the wiring and once again found that everything was in working order and should have killed Howard in the first 20 seconds. No one knew why it didn't work, but they surmised the problem was that Frank Howard was simply a bad conductor.


Spaw

Please don't kill me

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 18 Sep 12 - 03:41 PM

Frightening.

Still, keep banging the rocks together and one day, the whole rather than sections of The USA can call itself civilised.

Still murdering your citizens and discussing the technicalities rather than the crime of state murder

How the flying fuck did you manage to get men on the moon?

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Sep 12 - 03:43 PM

Spaw, you're my man!

I'm gonna torment all my friends with that one!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: Becca72
Date: 18 Sep 12 - 03:55 PM

LOL Spaw!

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Sep 12 - 04:22 PM

Maybe he had a bad disconnection???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: Wesley S
Date: 18 Sep 12 - 04:25 PM

"How the flying fuck did you manage to get men on the moon?"

I was going to say that those are two different subjects - but both involve a certain amount of technological expertise and good old American know-how.

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Sep 12 - 04:36 PM

"Only in America".

Thank God.

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Sep 12 - 04:46 PM

Ya'll remind me to tell ya' my Hog-falls-out-of-pickup-truck-doing- 60-mph story sometime...

Not now...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: gnu
Date: 18 Sep 12 - 05:01 PM

Yes, it IS tragic, McGrath, that the US penal system does not have better nutricians on staff to help this poor lad lose weight so they ice his sorry ass without feeling guilty.

WTF? He shot a 53 year old clerk in the head TWICE... TWICE!... for $100 and a 13" TV and you holier than thou fuckers are shitting on those that would off this piece of trash... in a HUMANE way? Fuck him... he needs to lose weight? needs to cut his dietary intake? Cut his fuckin throat. That'll reduce his weight and his burden on society.

Now, if he came from a "bad home" and was on drugs and blah, blah, blah... yes I can see rehab and all the rest of it. But, I haven't read the trial transcript. Have youse read it and based your posts for clemency on that reading at this point in time? Don't answer because it's obvious you haven't or you would have posted to that effect.

"... serious physical and psychological pain to him,..." Bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Sep 12 - 05:35 PM

Ya' know, it seems to me that as they talk of "humane" killings its just dumb. Physical pain and pschological pain..........uh, yeah..........Look, if you are so barbaric that you must have a death sentence than here's some options. Give the inmate the decision from a list of possibilities. Hanging, firing squad electrocution....Its all on the table........just choose. I think they need to include another that's not mentioned. If it were me choosing, I'd request a 12 gauge magnum in the mouth or a handgun such as a 44 or 357 that would be guaranteed to do the job. A bit messy but no apin or suffering which sounds more humane to me than lethal injection or gas.



Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Sep 12 - 06:01 PM

As I said, only in America, Thank God. Where the murder rate is four times as high as it is in Western Europe.

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Sep 12 - 06:02 PM

I find myself quite conflicted about capital punishment.
I see clearly that far too many innocent people have been sentenced to death, and that we MUST avoid such things.
I also see 'reality shows' about prisons where there are an increasing number of very dangerous prisoners sentenced to 'life without parole' for some very heinous crimes... and who take the view that "it can't get any worse", so they take up a 'hobby' of trying to kill or injure other inmates or staff. We spend 30-50,000 a year just 'guarding' and feeding people who are totally dedicated to being as big a problem as possible and who CANNOT be released.

Add to this the strange confusion about avoiding inflicting 'temporary' pain on someone who will in a few minutes have NO pain, and it just doesn't all make sense. IF you have a death penalty, why is technique so important?

I don't know what to suggest!!~.... but I **predict** that IF trends continue, in a few years down the road, much resistance to capital punishment will weaken as we run out of spaces and money to build new prisons and can't hire guards willing to risk THEIR lives....

we shall see, hmmm?

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: gnu
Date: 18 Sep 12 - 06:06 PM

The murder rate is higher because of the social problems not addressed by the government. The murder rate is not that much higher because trash like this guy is legally murdered. Matter of fact, that plus or minus part of the statistics? I'd say it's a plus in his case.

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Sep 12 - 06:09 PM

It's real easy to point fingers and accuse, but it's something else to come up with a viable solution.

'Twas ever this.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Sep 12 - 06:29 PM

"...social problems not addressed by the government."

Umm... right. Care to outline briefly just how to 'address' those problems? Or even to define the problems clearly?

Education? Jobs? Kindness? Fewer violent TV programs? A psychological test to determine if one should be allowed to have children?

(It seems that 'fewer firearms' that allow 'easy' murder is off the table)

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: gnu
Date: 18 Sep 12 - 06:33 PM

The solution is to nuture... to clothe, to feed, to save from harm, to eductae, to value, to...

Not to throw young babes to the wind and wolves. That is the downfall.

But, that does not negate culling society of such a monster that would execute a hotel clerk in this manner.

Prove he was a victim and I'll read him bedtime stories. If not, lights out, time to go to sleep.

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Sep 12 - 06:45 PM

Those solutions sound very nice..... "the devil is in the details"

...but execute this obese guy in a non-painful way, and the protesters will line up by the thousands.......... no easy answers.

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: gnu
Date: 18 Sep 12 - 07:01 PM

"The devil" is the society that doesn't nuture the child. No details.

How do you nuture every child? Apparently ya can't or that motel clerk might still be alive. That's the real debate. That's the real challenge.

As for non-painful, I agree with that. But he doesn't wanna go that way soooo... ?

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Sep 12 - 07:12 PM

Basically killing people is bad for an individual, and it is bad for a society. And it doesn't work as a way of making murder less common - if anything the evidence points the opposite way.

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Sep 12 - 07:15 PM

You can get 17 different views of what is 'good' nurturing. Do you just define failed nurturing by pointing at failed people?

I personally know people who tried all sorts of love and 'nurture' and had a kid with real problems.... and there are many examples of it going the other way and good people coming from bad environments.

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Sep 12 - 07:28 PM

Let's just work on the idea of sanctity of life... That means no capital punishment as well as more opportunity for success, better education and way less hand guns...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: gnu
Date: 18 Sep 12 - 08:01 PM

NO hand guns. Health care. Education. People fed and clothed and housed. Not forcing poor people into planes to take them 8000 miles away to kill poeple who are more poor than they are with weapons that cost far more than it would take to provide all of them health care, educate them, feed them, clothe them and house them.

But the fat guy? If he wasn't in dire straights, fry his ass and don't get all sappy about it. The families of his victim have been paying tax dollars to keep that piece of trash alive and gettin fat fer far too long.

ONE last time... if it wasn't his fault, free him. If it was his fault, fry him.

Next thing I'll be hearing is that MacDonald's is at fault for makin fat people fat. Gimmie a fuckin break.

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Sep 12 - 08:41 PM

Having looked at only the thread title, I think there is a song in there.

Too obese to execute, dah dah,
Too obtuse to sub se quent ly
Send your moth er flowers on the phone.
Too obese to elocute, dah dah,
I am the dez ig nate ed driver,
Call the police and let them know
That fats is drivin' 'round.

Has the makings of a shanty, no?

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Sep 12 - 09:08 PM

You've written better stuff, brucie... lol...

Hey, the way I look at it, the prison has fattened this guy up over the last 30 years and he ain't gonna live all that long so...

...just pardon him... He's already been punished with 30 years of crappy food...

Like who is he gonna kill now... I mean, other than himself...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: gnu
Date: 18 Sep 12 - 10:15 PM

30 years of crappy food? He's fat. It couldn't have been THAT crappy.

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Sep 12 - 10:38 PM

Nah, Gn-ze... Obesity has been traced to crappy food... Another report on it just this evening on NBC news...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 19 Sep 12 - 04:45 AM

This whole scenario is disgusting and appalling. The Death Penalty should be abolished everywhere. I just can't imagine people coldly discussing how to kill a man by different methods, it's sinister and chilling. I'm very glad we don't have such horrors in UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: CET
Date: 19 Sep 12 - 05:00 AM

Gnu, I suppose that you would be equally in favor of executing someone found guilty, beyond reasonable doubt, of raping and murdering young girls (Guy-Paul Morin, Stephen Truscott) or raping and stabbing a nurse and leaving her to die in the snow (David Milgaard). As a Canadian, you should know what those three have in common.

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 19 Sep 12 - 05:25 AM

This man has been in prison for 30 years. What kind of country imprisons people for 30 years and THEN kills them? I find this thread quite horrible, along with some of the sentiments in here..I'm not excusing what he's done, but when people fail to see that 30 years in prison is punishment enough, then that worries me bigtime.

I find the American Justice System to be one of the most vile in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Sep 12 - 05:54 AM

Ah, well; as the old legal saw has it, the hard cases make the bad law. If there were any solution to the problem of how to dispose of the irredeemable psychopath, the imprisonment of whom puts all his guards, nurses, carers, fellow-prisoners, and indeed all of society [if we are to let him out after 30 years, Lizzie, then just hope he doesn't chance your children's way] at undeserved risk, while many people's morality revolts at the very idea of deliberately and judicially ending anyone's life by whatever means ---

--- then surely such solution would have been found by now.

Meanwhile we shall just have to do the best we can ~~ which is not very...

Something to be said, as I have remarked before, for the concept, in not a doctrinal but a practical sense, of Original Sin.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: johncharles
Date: 19 Sep 12 - 06:29 AM

Tarring all Americans with the same brush seems unfair. As I understand it there are currently 17 states which do not support capital punishment. The second largest state Texas does have capital punishment and since 1976 has executed 484 people,about 36% of the total number of executions in the USA.
john

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: Stu
Date: 19 Sep 12 - 06:42 AM

No revenge because he's too fat? You couldn't make it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Sep 12 - 07:00 AM

I cannot help but observe that, in his condition, he is hardly a danger to society.

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: kendall
Date: 19 Sep 12 - 09:40 AM

The population of America is over 300 million. What is the population of western Europe?

Maine has 1.1 million people, no death penalty and it is one of the top 3 safest states to live.
We are not all gun wielding assholes.

Ignorance and despair are the real culprits.

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Sep 12 - 01:01 PM

Lizzie, your blanket condemnation of the "American Justice System" graphically demonstrates your ignorance of that which you condemn. There is NO "American Justice System." Within guidelines set by the Constitution, which all the individual states must adhere to, each state makes most of its own laws. Capital punishment is practiced in some states and is banned in others.

Your all-too-frequent blanket condemnations of whole groups of people for the offenses of a few grow tiresome, display your ignorance of that which you condemn, and are the hallmark of the bigot.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Sep 12 - 03:39 PM

The population of Western Europe is just under 400 million. Rather higher than the USA's 300 million. And a whole lot fewer murders. Though the significant thing is murder rate, not overall numbers

And there the position is that Western and Central Europe has a murder rate of 1.5 per 100,000 while the United States has 6.1 per hundred thousand.

Of course there are a lot pof countries with higher murder rates than the USA, some a lot higher. But in all cases they are countries where people are far poorer, and which aren't really comparable to teh USA in the way Westen Europe is.

Of course poverty and so forth aren't by any means the only factors involved - and of course there are a whole lot of far poorer countries which have a much lower rate than the USA.

I doubt if the actual numnber of executions is too significant in such respects. More relevant might be the impact that the existence of government authorised killings has on the mindset of some people. More especially perhaps drawn out death sentences over many decades.

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: gnu
Date: 19 Sep 12 - 05:26 PM

CET... he pleaded guilty. Maybe you missed that? He DID it by his OWN admission... no false witnesses, no DNA required, no fuck all. Gimmie a break EH? Yeah, I am a Canuck and I know what you mean. Do YOU know what *I* mean?

Seriously, I want your answer. On accounta your post makes no sense as far as this case is concerned. The fact that you say you, "... suppose that you {meaning gnu} would be equally in favor of executing someone found guilty, beyond reasonable doubt, of raping and murdering young girls..." implies that you think I cannot discern the difference between an accused and someone who has ADMITTED IN A COURT OF LAW THAT HE DID IT! WTF do you not understaand about that? Seriously, I find your character assisination of me of the worst and most virulent kind and I am truly offended.

Tell ya what, all your warm and fuzzy bears out there... I say he should live! Do NOT execute him! But, if he loses weight, hang the fucker. Lethal injection costs money and rope can be recycled... I am all about being green, me.

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Sep 12 - 08:36 PM

This sounds like a problem Eddie Whatnoll might run into if they had capital punishment in the UK...and if Eddie got sentenced to it. Fortunately, they don't. In Eddie's case, even getting him to the prison might prove to be exceedingly difficult.

Olive's been trying to just get him off the couch for years. Kind of like Mohammed and the mountain.

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: CET
Date: 19 Sep 12 - 10:41 PM

So you would execute people who plead guilty, but not those who present a defence and lose? How many guilty pleas do you think there are in first degree murder cases in the real world?

The point I wanted to make about the death penalty is that where it exists, innocent people are found guilty and killed by the State. That is a fact. If you want to kill this fat guy, you have to accept killing people like Morin, Milgaard, Truscott and all the others.

There are only two verdicts on any charge: guilty and not guilty. There is no "really, really guilty" or "guilty beyond the shadow of a doubt" or "guilty plus he admitted it". I don't think you really want to put Guy-Paul Morin to death, but you have not thought through the logic of what you wrote.

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 04:18 AM

It isn't to do with who pleads guilty, who doesn't, what they did or why. A person kills another person. That is not a reason to cold-bloodedly take their life. How does that make you any better than them? It is never right to take a life. That is why murder is the most heinous crime. To execute a murderer is murder too. Vengeance is a very basic and primitive reaction, and in some parts of the world we have evolved beyond it now.

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: Musket
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 04:33 AM

A murder is a murder. Two murders are two murders.

Hopefully, those who murder on behalf of their ragged tattered Stars and Stripes manage to sleep at night. If not, there are medications available, but like the ones used for lethal injection, wouldn't it be funny if The UK refused an export licence for them too, if they had to get them from the first world.

Eliza has a point, and a point shared by many friends I have in The USA. It shouldn't be the fear of executing innocent people that drives abolition, it is the act of killing people itself. Incarceration is to protect society. Anything over and above that is understandable with regard to the victims's friends and family, but unforgivable with regards to everybody else.

We, including The USA, have courts and juries in order to look at facts without emotion or bias. If you give the death penalty, you might as well not bother with blind justice, as you are pandering to emotion rather than protecting society.

And that is what makes it so sick.

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: CET
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 04:50 AM

For me, it isn't the fear of executing the innocent that makes me opposed to the death penalty, it is the certainty.

I do agree rationally that the death penalty is wrong in itself, but in all honesty that is not really what drives my opposition. There are plenty of murderers whose execution I would not regret, and I would not regard their killing as murder. However, if the State can kill these people, then it WILL kill the innocent.

Subject: RE: BS: Too obese to execute
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 05:09 AM

When quite young, I used to be very severe in my opinion that a murderer deserved to die etc. I was all for the Death Penalty of 'hanging by the neck until dead', and sorry to see it abolished here in UK. But my old father (who'd seen death in all its forms during the War) once asked me to imagine the felon in his last moments being pinioned, led to the scaffold, a bag put over his head, the rope noose placed around his neck and the lever ready to push for the 'drop'. He asked me, "Now, in all sincerity, would YOU push that lever?" And I had to admit I couldn't have done so. He asked me why not, and it was because to take a life like that in cold blood seemed so obviously wrong. I have to add that the last British Executioner, Albert Pierrepoint, in his autobiography, came to the same conclusion, that hanging was no deterrent, that it was pointless and wrong, and he had no regrets that it had been abolished.