BS: Opening windows on airplanes???

Subject: BS: Opening windows on airplanes???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 04:37 PM

Did Mitt really say that passengers should be able to open airplane windows? I've seen it quoted a couple of times but don't trust the sources or agree with the meanness of the commentary. .... From wonkette...


"I appreciate the fact that she is on the ground, safe and sound. And I don't think she knows just how worried some of us were," Romney said. "When you have a fire in an aircraft, there's no place to go, exactly, there's no — and you can't find any oxygen from outside the aircraft to get in the aircraft, because the windows don't open. I don't know why they don't do that. It's a real problem. So it's very dangerous. And she was choking and rubbing her eyes. Fortunately, there was enough oxygen for the pilot and copilot to make a safe landing in Denver. But she's safe and sound."

Subject: RE: BS: Opening windows on airplanes???
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 04:55 PM

According to the L.A. Times he said it:


http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-romney-beverly-hills-fundraiser-20120922,0,2317962.story

However...

If it's the kind of small plane that lacks a pressurized cabin because it flies at low altitudes, there's no need for the windows to be unopenable in an emergency.

However...

Ann was on Canadair Regional Jet, a large jetliner whose windows really need to be sealed.

Subject: RE: BS: Opening windows on airplanes???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 04:59 PM

I am imagining passengers in seats on an airliner behind the Romneys reacting when Mitt says, "I think I need some air."

Subject: RE: BS: Opening windows on airplanes???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 05:46 PM

It depends on which kind of airplane. It also depends on the altitude and whether there is cabin pressurization. There ARE a number of emergency exits on large airliners which can quickly be opened when on the ground...or on the water, in the case of ditching the plane. Those suffice. It wouldn't be technically practical or sensible to make all the windows on those large planes into emergency exits.

Large planes also have oxygen masks which drop down in the case of an emergency, and that covers the problem Romney is alluding to. It seems quite odd that he would talk about opening the windows on such a plane.

Subject: RE: BS: Opening windows on airplanes???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 05:55 PM

If airline windows could be opened by passengers, the terrorists wouldn't need bombs.

Subject: RE: BS: Opening windows on airplanes???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 06:09 PM

That's for damn sure!

Subject: RE: BS: Opening windows on airplanes???
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 06:11 PM

HAWK.....What you just posted is the simplest common knowledge known to anyone who flies much. Perhaps someone who never flew or on a first flight or never saw one of about a zillion movies where there's an explosive decompression. Romney?

With Bain he had to log a shitload of hours and yet had no rudimentary interest it planes except as toools. This guy is one of the true elite and completely and wholly out of touch with anything even halfways approaching normal life.   He's been pampered his entire life and has no idea how the rest live.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Opening windows on airplanes???
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 06:48 PM

"The Medical Background

Adequate oxygen saturation of haemoglobin is vital to human function. Although ambient air pressure reduces with increasing altitude and, as a direct consequence of this, the partial pressure of oxygen reduces too, oxygen saturation of haemoglobin is initially little affected. Between the surface and 10,000 feet altitude, even though air pressure decreases by 25%, the saturation of haemoglobin with oxygen only declines from about 98% to 90% which makes little difference to most human functions; the exception to this is a gradual onset of significant deterioration in night vision sensitivity, which has been found to reduce by 30% by 10,000 feet altitude. However, above 10,000 feet altitude, the amount of haemoglobin in the blood begins to decrease much more rapidly, much faster than air pressure which continues to decrease at a similar rate. By 20,000 feet altitude, the concentration of haemoglobin in the blood is only 65% saturation and at these levels, normal human function is materially interrupted and the effects are cumulative over time. At higher altitudes, the effects worsen quickly."

If anyone has Mitt's address, send him the above. It's from Wikipedia, but it's accurate.

Subject: RE: BS: Opening windows on airplanes???
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 06:54 PM

Yeah B, but at 20 or 30 thousand if you "open a window' O2 sat is irrelevant....LOL...........You'll like be sucked out so damn fast you'll be well over halfway to the ground before you even try to breathe!


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Opening windows on airplanes???
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 07:09 PM

This Mitt character: he could become your president? No offence, but "God Bless America."

Subject: RE: BS: Opening windows on airplanes???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 07:12 PM

Y'mean God help America.

Subject: RE: BS: Opening windows on airplanes???
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 07:17 PM

Aircraft have been known to have explosive decompression. I don't know how likely it is that a person would get sucked out a small window, but the "bends", ruptured ear drums, and the like would happen. Once the pressure equalized (which would be pretty soon if a lot of people opened their windows at once), there would be no more stuff getting sucked out windows. That's when hypoxia would happen. Well, it would if people didn't manage to figure the oxygen masks out.

Subject: RE: BS: Opening windows on airplanes???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 07:27 PM

Yup, that's right, Spaw. It's common knowledge.

Subject: RE: BS: Opening windows on airplanes???
From: olddude
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 07:31 PM

LOL well there ya go Mitt, I open doors on airplanes right before I jump out at 4000 ft.   Maybe he sky dives

Subject: RE: BS: Opening windows on airplanes???
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 07:33 PM

Maybe he just meant that the skipper should be able to roll windows down in an emergency. From the cockpit.

After he's brung 'er to a safe altitude.

I mean, you know, roll 'em down just a crack. For fresh air.

What Mitt said was just inelegantly phrased, is all.

Subject: RE: BS: Opening windows on airplanes???
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 07:55 PM

I figure that if he's elected Air Force One (which is the designation for any plane carrying the US president) will incur some redesign. I can see USAF personnel lining up for the pilot and copilot jobs. Line forms to the right . . .

You do realize that that scenario could lead to some seriously bad problems if say Stephen Harper were aboard and Mitt wanted the windows open at 15,000 feet and the gusting messed up our prime minister's hair. Y'all think ya got troubles with Afghanistan and Iran, well, "You ain't seen nothin' yet, buh-buh-buh-baby, you just ain't seen nothin' yet . . .".

A word to the wise, no offence.

Subject: RE: BS: Opening windows on airplanes???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 08:08 PM

Look on the bright side, Bruce. Harper might get sucked right out the window.

Subject: RE: BS: Opening windows on airplanes???
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 08:49 PM

Yeah Jeri, its not common and far more of a movie thing but there have been some interesting cases of humans going out through small opening or the impact of something from the decompression increasing the size of the hole.

On the other hand, a great novel could use a rigged O2 system with the pilot on a different system. Variants of that them have been used but not where the perp was trying to stay clean.



Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Opening windows on airplanes???
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 09:57 PM

Think of all the house flies it would let into the aircraft at 39,000 feet yup they would be buzzing around your peanuts and soda water .. May even land on one of the flight attendants

Subject: RE: BS: Opening windows on airplanes???
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 09:59 PM

" . . . there have been some interesting cases of humans going out through small opening or the impact of something from the decompression increasing the size of the hole."

I find myself at a loss for words.

Subject: RE: BS: Opening windows on airplanes???
From: frogprince
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 10:03 PM

"humans going out through small opening"

uh, yuh; been there, done that...

Subject: RE: BS: Opening windows on airplanes???
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 10:09 PM

Hey, Spaw: somebody gets sucked out an airplane window. Know what the last thing to go through his mind is?

...............

Subject: RE: BS: Opening windows on airplanes???
From: Charley Noble
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 10:09 PM

From "A Cowardly Act" by Charlie Ipcar

Them Russians loaded up that cow on a military jet,
They'd not been flying long before Bossy became upset;
She began to thrash about and threatened to stampede,
In panic they opened the cargo doors at thirty thousand feet!

And so it was that cow dashed out into the skies so blue,
She struck the trawler far below-w-w, and sore perplexed her crew;
But them fishermen they all survived and lived to tell the tale;
They'll soon be milking royalties when their agent makes a sale.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Opening windows on airplanes???
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 10:17 PM

Good one, Charley. Where's the rest of it for a LYRIC ADD ?

Subject: RE: BS: Opening windows on airplanes???
From: Duane D.
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 10:38 PM

Does Romney get his advice from George Dubya???

Subject: RE: BS: Opening windows on airplanes???
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 11:07 PM

Bruce, Charley posted his song in a Song Challenge thread some years back when the aforementioned cow fell onto the trawler!

and here it is Song Challenge! Part 49

Subject: RE: BS: Opening windows on airplanes???
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 11:23 PM

Thank you, Sandra. I don't think I was around then. Thanks for the link to that thread. I have it bookmarked. Looks like there more than a few good lyrics on there.

Subject: RE: BS: Opening windows on airplanes???
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 11:33 PM

Wikipedia has a nice article on cabin pressurization. It points out, when you read it, that outside air flow INTO the cabin (under pressure) as the plane flies and LEAVES the cabin via exhaust valves. In short, there are already holes in the aircraft, ones planned for and quite necessary.

Consider: you board the aircraft, the doors are sealed, and the compartment in pressurized. Without a regular inflow of "new" air and an outflow of "used" air CO2 would build up rather quickly and that would have consequences more immediate than explosive decompression.

If you shot a small (say, 1/2 inch across, or .50 caliber) hole from the inside of an aircraft flying at, say, 39,000 feet (11,887 meters) the pressure inside the aircraft is equal to that of about 8,000 feet above sea level, what would happen?

The cabin decompressed. The compressed air quickly flows out, but it does NOT take the seats and passengers with it (you could sit on the hole and plug it -- unpleasant, but a nice thing to do even though you'd freeze part of ass off, literally). The seats are bolted down, and the passengers are, relative to the decompression, too heavy. Put a plastic mattress over the hole and it would stop the air flow.

Consider the equivalent when the pressure OUTSIDE is greater than the pressure INSIDE -- in a boat. Drill a hole in a boat and water flows in. Shoot a hole in a boat and the water flows in. Put an explosive charge on the side of ship (a limpet mine, for instance) and you not only put a hole in the boat, you also push the water AWAY from the hole, and when it comes back it comes back with great force and tears the hole bigger (unlike air, you can't compress water).

If a whole aircraft structural panel fails (as happened on the Hawaiian Airlines flight some years back), that a MASSIVE hole and will suck out passengers, etc. But a little one wouldn't normally cause explosive decompression, ASSUMING that it doesn't hit a tank of compressed air or a fuel line or something like that.

A bomb going off inside an aircraft would likely blow a good-sized hole in the plane and cause ugly things to happen, but the plane would not NECESSARILY be blown apart or spiral into the ground/ocean. Too many questions -- What type of explosive? How much? Where did the explosion happen (blowing the tail off a plane is a good way of making it fall from the sky, but blowing a hole in the side might not do it)? Shaped charge, linear charge, how was the charge configured? Too many questions to answer easily.

Mind you, I'll be flying the BWI on Thursday and I would NOT want any of these things to happen while I'm aloft! But I'm not afraid of them. "A boring flight is a good flight" is my motto.

Subject: RE: BS: Opening windows on airplanes???
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 25 Sep 12 - 04:13 AM

Small, unpressurized planes frequently have a small window or two that can be opened in flight, and the effects of opening one should be fairly minimal. Most planes likely to have such an opening that'a intended to be openable in flight can't fly above 10,000 feet. In the US, at least, any flight at 10,000 feet above MSL the pilot is required to be on oxygen if the cabin is unpressurized, and it would be exceedingly poor practice not to have all passengers also equipped.

Some small unpressurized planes don't have such a window, since their higher speeds tend to rip little holes into bigger holes.

Smaller pressurized airplanes are generally pressurized to fairly low differential pressure, with 3.2 to 4.2 psid being fairly common. These planes can fly in "controlled airspace" above 10,000 ft MSL, but each plane may have different maximum legal altitude restrictions depending on the available differential. By FAA regulations, a pressurized airplane carrying commercial passengers must maintain an internal atmosphere for everyone onboard equal to a 10,000 ft. or lower altitude.

Most kinds of decompression likely to occur with 4 psid differential pressures would be unlikely to cause very great damage, but few of these aircraft have openable windows since even that differential applies a very substantial force against any movable "window" that might be made openable, so the windows usually are just omitted.

Even very large "passenger aircraft" are seldom pressurized above about 10.5 psid, although a few exceptions do exist. Even at that differential the forces on a square foot of door would be on the order of 144+ pounds. To prevent accidental "blowout" opening, all such openable areas need to "open inward" so even a small window would be quite difficult to open since one would have to pull against that force to get it open. (A passenger door on one larger passenger airplane with which I have some familiarity is "closed" by a differential pressure force of more than 30,000 pounds when pressurized at normal flight differential. We hope it's very sturdy.)

On the larger aircraft, a "hole" up to about a square foot will cause partial, albeit explosively rapid, decompression, but the normal inflow, if engines reamain normally functional will maintain some effective differential between cabin and outside atmospheric pressures. Anything larger is quite likey to "suck things through the hole," but not just because of the airflow but because any "large hole" is very likely to span through structural members that will allow a "rip" that may (explosively) make a much larger hole.

Windows that open in flight are a very bad idea in any pressurized airplane, and measures to prevent inflight opening of any openings in flight are generally extensive in higher performance craft. Some of the more modern pressurized aircraft do design air intake and circulation to provide smoke clearance and maintenance of some differential altitude in the event of a "leak" up to some "remotely expected" possible size, but such features aren't universally included.

Effects of altitude are insidious and lethal, and even a partial loss of pressure at altitude can have very rapid and serious consequences. It may be little known, but the possibility of an unnoticed change is considered serious enough that on commercial passenger carrying aircraft it is MANDATORY that the pilot be on full oxygen whenever any other member of the crew leaves the cockpit. (Somebody has to watch the pilot, and someone else needs to watch the watcher, since most people don't know that they're passing out in a hypoxic atmosphere.)

John

Subject: RE: BS: Opening windows on airplanes???
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Sep 12 - 08:38 AM

I dunno' Jeri....What?


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Opening windows on airplanes???
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Sep 12 - 08:53 AM

Sandra-

Thanks for finding "A Cowardly Act", my first success in a Mudcat Challenge thread. Of course I had already composed the song before the challenge and just had to copy and paste it in when my old pal Brett pointed out the opportunity. Sure sucked me into the whole Mudcat morass! Here's a MP3 sample link (go to "Lyrics" and click on "MP3") to how I sing it: http://www.charlieipcar.com/

I'm not sure if I find the Romneys much source of inspiration.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Opening windows on airplanes???
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Sep 12 - 09:38 AM

To avoid someone setting off a bomb on a plane.

The chances are high that there will not be a bomb on any plane on which you travel.
However, the chances of there being two bombs on a plane are infinitesimal.
So:
Carry a bomb when you travel & you can be almost certain that no one else is carrying one!

Cheers
Nigel


The logic of this argument is somewhat false!

Subject: RE: BS: Opening windows on airplanes???
From: Megan L
Date: 25 Sep 12 - 10:04 AM

Weel beuys captain Peace aftin opened the windae oh the plane as we wur cummin in tae land an ah kin tell you it wur cauld enough tae freeze the milk in the coo. Mind you it wis usually the coo whit wis the cause oh the trouble in the first place an he opened the widae tae yell at the fairmer tae get his coos aff the landin field.

Min he hid tae be gey quick at shuttin the windae again landin in a field oh coos sharn is nae fun.


Translations can be had at retail rates from messers MacKenzie & Owen esquire.

Subject: RE: BS: Opening windows on airplanes???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Sep 12 - 12:10 PM

The possibility of 3 bombs on one plane is even more unlikely. So carry a bomb yourself, and get your partner (if you have one) to do likewise. You will be able to relax and enjoy your flight in perfect peace and security.

Subject: RE: BS: Opening windows on airplanes???
From: olddude
Date: 25 Sep 12 - 12:16 PM

Hey any politician that wants to open a window and jump outta jet planes can't be all bad. Yea ... well I will watch him do it first before I try

Subject: RE: BS: Opening windows on airplanes???
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Sep 12 - 12:19 PM

Better still, fly on a bomber and the chances of a bomb on board are so close to zero it's all but immeasurable.

Subject: RE: BS: Opening windows on airplanes???
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Sep 12 - 01:25 PM

I would think the probability of becoming bombed on an airplane would be much higher than described above.

I'll drink to that!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Opening windows on airplanes???
From: Tiger
Date: 25 Sep 12 - 01:33 PM

You guys waste a lot of time and bandwidth.

And, we haven't even heard from Bobert yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Opening windows on airplanes???
From: gnu
Date: 25 Sep 12 - 02:16 PM

Bobert don't need no plane to fly.

On the off channce you were referring to me, Megan, it's OwenS. The "s" was branded onto our family name when we were throw out of Ireland for sheep stealing and we are are damn proud of it.

PS If you really wanna "translate" for yourselves, read it as fast as you can out loud. It make take a few tries but it weel work an yersels nae hafta gie them shysters a penny. (Yes, Megan, I know I can't spell proper... so skelp me.)

Subject: RE: BS: Opening windows on airplanes???
From: olddude
Date: 25 Sep 12 - 02:29 PM

Last I heard tell Bobster was sipping some good ole boy shine with his chainsaw so he ain't got time for air -O- planes and stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Opening windows on airplanes???
From: Megan L
Date: 25 Sep 12 - 02:49 PM

Weel a wid me darlin beuy but me spellin is as bad as yer ain I kent there wis an S in there somewhere but Sowen jist didny luk right :)

Subject: RE: BS: Opening windows on airplanes???
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 25 Sep 12 - 04:23 PM

I get it now. it finally sunk in. He made his money how ?? He is DB Cooper Oh yea !!

Subject: RE: BS: Opening windows on airplanes???
From: Kim C
Date: 25 Sep 12 - 04:39 PM

Even my conservative husband thinks Mitt is an idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Opening windows on airplanes???
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Sep 12 - 04:42 PM

Kim-

I wouldn't do that far. I'd simply say that "Romney acts like an idiot."

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Opening windows on airplanes???
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Sep 12 - 06:05 PM

Romney is a great method actor if Charley's right.

Subject: RE: BS: Opening windows on airplanes???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Sep 12 - 06:29 PM

Would this be fair to say?

Romney's analytical and communication skills seem to be demonstratively short of presidential.

Subject: RE: BS: Opening windows on airplanes???
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Sep 12 - 06:56 PM

Wouldn't an open plane window require screening to keep the angels out?

Subject: RE: BS: Opening windows on airplanes???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Sep 12 - 07:10 PM

screening to keep the angels out?

or screaming to keep the angels out.

Subject: RE: BS: Opening windows on airplanes???
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Sep 12 - 10:06 PM

I flew down and back from Seattle to the 1964 Berkeley Folk Festival. On the return flight, there were not that many passengers, maybe as many as a dozen on a Boeing 727. The stewardess (what they called "flight attendants" back in the Dark Ages) apparently had an oversupply of those little booze bottles and she kept plying me with Manhattans.

I wound up flying back to Seattle at about 39,000 feet.

Now the plane was at about 35,000 feet. . . .

Talk about getting "bombed" on an airliner!

They poured me off the plane.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Opening windows on airplanes???
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Sep 12 - 11:29 PM

Had the same sort of experience coming back from California to Ohio once, Don. Only it was carafes of wine, about a liter each.

Subject: RE: BS: Opening windows on airplanes???
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 26 Sep 12 - 11:14 AM

AEROPLANE WINDOWS:-
This is your starter for ten.

Why do the manufacturers find it necessary to put frosted glass in the windows of toilet compartments??

Subject: RE: BS: Opening windows on airplanes???
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Sep 12 - 12:33 PM

There are at least 5 doors including the wing exit hatches which you can call windows if you like.

However feeding oxygen to a smoldering smokey fire can cause flash over which has killed many people on airplanes on the ground.

BTW David Koch was in a similar fire situation that did flash over when he jumped from the front airplane door while others headed for the rear exits. He was one of the few survivors and says if he had gone to tell the others that the front door was clear, he would surely have died along with the all the others.