BS: Reinstate the Draft Mr. Obama

Subject: BS: Reinstate the Draft Mr. Obama
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 11:10 AM

Then the government will have to rethink foreign policy. It's too easy to send our people off to die with the volunteer military. Draft everyone under the age of 65 for two years. No deferments. No excuses. Everyone can contribute. How easy do you think it will be to get everyone behind you for our illegal wars? You'll see protests like in the 60's.
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Subject: RE: BS: Reinstate the Draft Mr. Obama
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 11:19 AM

Bit late for that Krinkle. Haven't you heard, there's no need for American blood to be spilled fighting them commies/terrorists/bugaboos under the bed/brown skinned foreigners - in their own lands - anymore, yoose all have drones for that now!

Subject: RE: BS: Reinstate the Draft Mr. Obama
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 11:26 AM

Somebody has to peel potatoes. Everyone can take a turn.
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Subject: RE: BS: Reinstate the Draft Mr. Obama
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 12:25 PM

I think you're quite right, Henry. A re-instatement of the Draft would indeed result in a massive public protest movement that would end these ruinous wars. The USA government was clever to replace the Draft with a volunteer military. They can suck in the unemployed, the poor, and the foolish to fight their illegal wars and dodge the kind of public resistance that arises from a Draft at the same time.

There's also been a very big move toward privatizing the US military. Private companies like Blackwater now provide paramilitary forces to fight in and occupy and administer the invaded lands, and it all happens under the public and media radar. It's like a secret war, more or less, and it's paid for with public funds. It's the rise of Big Government through private enterprise...using the public purse to pay for it. Very clever. Very deceitful.

Subject: RE: BS: Reinstate the Draft Mr. Obama
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 12:33 PM

They wanted us to believe they have a shred of compassion. And so many fell for it.
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Subject: RE: BS: Reinstate the Draft Mr. Obama
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 12:37 PM

Uh-huh.

Looks like people here are avoiding commenting on an interesting subject merely because you opened it, Henry. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Reinstate the Draft Mr. Obama
From: Arkie
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 01:15 PM

Henry, did you mention this when Bush, or rather his handlers, were making up reasons for going to war?

Subject: RE: BS: Reinstate the Draft Mr. Obama
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 01:18 PM

Yup...

Had we had a draft then we wouldn't have had Iraq... And maybe not Afghanistan...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Reinstate the Draft Mr. Obama
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 01:45 PM

Since the Selective Service Act was passed in 1948 it seems that Krinkle's argument is flawed.

Subject: RE: BS: Reinstate the Draft Mr. Obama
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 01:49 PM

You aren't American Mr. Bridge. People register but don't have to go in. They might still draft doctors, but everyone else volunteers.
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Subject: RE: BS: Reinstate the Draft Mr. Obama
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 02:11 PM

The Draft was around for some considerable time before the Vietnam War, Richard, but it didn't become hugely unpopular until it was being used to draft many middle class white people into a hugely unpopular war. It was the fact that the draft was affecting EVERY class of people that made that war politically unsustainable. If it had only been affecting the poor, you wouldn't have seen very much organized opposition.

And that is the main point. Henry is quite correct that if we still had a Draft in the USA, the last 2 administrations would not have been able to keep their Middle Eastern wars going. Public opposition would have been too strong.

As I say, they were clever to move to a volunteer army...and a further army of hired private industry fighters and contractors (mercenaries). They dodged the risk of a huge antiwar movement by doing so.

Corporations have think tanks who constantly analyze the best way of manipulating and controlling the general public so as to achieve a corporate objective. They do it in peace, they do it in advertising, they do it in propaganda, and they do it in war. Discontinuing the Draft has worked very much to their advantage by keeping public opposition to the so-called "War on Terror" quite muted.

Subject: RE: BS: Reinstate the Draft Mr. Obama
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 03:08 PM

A smaller share of Americans currently serve in the U.S. Armed Forces than at any time since the peace-time era between World Wars I and II. During the past decade, as the military has been engaged in the longest period of sustained conflict in the nation's history, just one-half of one percent of American adults has served on active duty at any given time. As the size of the military shrinks, the connections between military personnel and the broader civilian population appear to be growing more distant.

See the whole Pew Research Center survey here.

Here's
an interesting site, brought to you by the NDPAC (National Defense PAC). This page is for the Supremes, but you can click for other information in the frame on the left.

Subject: RE: BS: Reinstate the Draft Mr. Obama
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 03:11 PM

And that's how you keep down public opposition to a war! Directly affect less than 1% of the home population at any given time.

Subject: RE: BS: Reinstate the Draft Mr. Obama
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 03:24 PM

Oh, I remember the draft well... I kinda dropped out of college in December of '65 'cause I was trying to transfer from Va.Tech to what was then Richmond Polytechnic Institute (now VCU) and withdrew the 1st week of the month and got a Christmas card from Uncle Sam December 23rd... Remember that day well... It was the same day that my uncle, who was a mafia, threatened to rough me up for saying something bad about the mafia??? What was that all about???

No matter, flunked my per-induction physical because I had had a collapsed lung the year before...

But lotta my buddies went and a couple of them got killed and my cousin (the son of Uncle Mafia) got severely messed up...

Bring it back 'cause if Romney gets in there will be another big war with Iran...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Reinstate the Draft Mr. Obama
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 03:26 PM

Yeah, the growing gap between civilians and military mean that those who served are becoming more and more angry about the policies of those who did not. There are no studies that I know of on this so you'll have to take my word that it's happening.

A conversation with a Vietnam vet I had years ago:

Lloyd: Do you thing the Vietnam vets have gotten screwed?
Me: Fuckin' aye.
Lloyd: Yeah, I think so too.

Subject: RE: BS: Reinstate the Draft Mr. Obama
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 06:06 PM

Even draftees have to be paid, so Henry's idea of drafting everybody is pure BULLSHIT. We can't afford it.

With or without a draft, the military can only use a certain number of people, and at present the need has been met without a draft.

Drafting more people, limited by the numbers needed, will only, at best, bring in more people from the lower economic strata for whom even army pay is better than what they have at home, so Henry's real objective of getting rid of more of "the ones that don't matter" would be well served. (At least that's the real objective implied by the RepubliTeaPissers who have most frequently made this recommendation recently.)

One might get some of the "public rejection" that Henry postulates by drafting, automatically with no exceptions and no appeals, anyone whose daddy made more than a million in the past year; and perhaps drafting all the "sons of politicians" would also help. I'd guess that even that might be ineffective due to the number who'd just think it "simplifies the inheritance tax."

Otherwise this whole thread is a crock.

[I "volunteered" and served nearly nine years, but under conditions that don't apply to most draftees.]

About all I can say to those in the military now or recently is "Thanks for trying." They all already know that the real problem is that there's far too much profit - for somebody else - in making war.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Reinstate the Draft Mr. Obama
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 07:25 PM

Apart from the obvious objection that making war and using the tools of war is now so specialized (yes, this includes the Infantry!) that the military neither wants nor needs those without at least a high school education AND the ability to learn, recent studies by the Department of Defense show that more than 85% of the eligible age group would be rejected for that, obesity, or both.

Subject: RE: BS: Reinstate the Draft Mr. Obama
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 08:13 PM

Henry's idea of drafting everybody is pure BULLSHIT.

As are most, if not absolutely ALL of Stinkle's "ideas".

Subject: RE: BS: Reinstate the Draft Mr. Obama
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 08:43 PM

Oh, for the record, it's President Obama, not Mr. Obama... Thats the way it works in America...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Reinstate the Draft Mr. Obama
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 10:00 PM

A new tech tool has just been announced that could be a very serious threat to some people here.

The headline reads:

"Tool Blocks Internet Users Who Lack Empathy"

Unfortunately, as described the tool appears to lack the ability to block those without empathy who do not lack the ability to lie, bloviate, and spew trash fluently so I think I'll wait for the second version before providing a link.

I'm sure it will be along shortly. Consider this an "Alert" rather than a "Warning."

John

Subject: RE: BS: Reinstate the Draft Mr. Obama
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 10:46 PM

A separate new scientific report is encouraging, since it suggests that it might even be possible for us (the US) to survive a significant "success" by RepuliTeaPissers in the coming election.

Judge for yourself, at Republican hopes?.

[I have been warned about my attempts at humor, but ...]

John

Subject: RE: BS: Reinstate the Draft Mr. Obama
From: GUEST,marks(on the road)
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 12:22 AM

Easy way to avoid service if you are drafted is to proclaim yourself gay. Lots of guys did that during the Vietnam era.

Oh wait.............never mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Reinstate the Draft Mr. Obama
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 04:40 AM

We can replace overpaid federal employees with draftees. Think of the savings. And no labor union to represent them.
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Subject: RE: BS: Reinstate the Draft Mr. Obama
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 05:30 PM

Why shouldn't someone call him "Mr Obama", Bobert? I can call our prime minister "Mr Harper" if I want to, and no one takes it as an insult. He is Mr Obama as well as being President Obama.

Henry's idea is not to draft everybody, Greg. No nation ever drafts everybody. It's not even possible to do that. His idea is to re-instate the Draft, meaning to make everyone within certain designated parameters eligible to theoretically BE drafted. That was the situation in the USA in the 50's and 60's and during the Vietnam War. The existence OF the Draft was one of the main factors in the American middle class gradually turning against supporting that war, because it was affecting their children in large numbers.

Subject: RE: BS: Reinstate the Draft Mr. Obama
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 05:39 PM

Yes, he did say literally TO draft everyone in his first post, but I would think that was to make a satirical point, wouldn't you? The point is, more USA citizens would oppose America's illegal wars if more were directly affected by them.

Subject: RE: BS: Reinstate the Draft Mr. Obama
From: gnu
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 06:28 PM

I think most do oppose the "wars". They just don't have a say.

Protests? They only work if people are shot.

Subject: RE: BS: Reinstate the Draft Mr. Obama
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 08:59 PM

Draft everyone. If nothing else they can wash windows.
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Subject: RE: BS: Reinstate the Draft Mr. Obama
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 09:10 PM

That was the situation in the USA in the 50's and 60's and during the Vietnam War.

No shit, LH- I was one of them draftees. Will you ever stop trying to teach your grandmother to suck eggs?

Subject: RE: BS: Reinstate the Draft Mr. Obama
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 09:42 PM

But, Greg! My Grandmother spent her whole life baffled by the complexities of the fine art of eggsucking. I did the best I could to teach her what I knew about it, but she finally passed away never having satisfactorily sucked a single egg! Can you imagine the load of guilt I have had to carry ever since? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Reinstate the Draft Mr. Obama
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 03:51 AM

Go blow an egg, Greg.
Mmmmm. Very poetic.
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Subject: RE: BS: Reinstate the Draft Mr. Obama
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 04:58 AM

Little Hawk commented:

That was the situation in the USA in the 50's and 60's and during the Vietnam War.

In the US, that IS THE SITUATION NOW. (with reference to LH's description of the situation)

Selective Service

It is still a requirement that all our young men (I'm not sure about the others) are required to register so that their availability to be drafted can be determined. [Enforcement of the requirement may(?) be less rigorous than when some still were being called up(?).]

Although it's been several decades since I've been asked for it, I still carry my "draft card" in my wallet, "just in case," since technically I'm required to do so, but mostly because it states that I did my time and cannot be recalled even by act of Congress.

[The card is of course very faint and tenuous assurance ..., and my ancient and venerable age is likely a better protection against being drafted. Feebleness of mind and body may also help.]

Just to be clear on the issue.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Reinstate the Draft Mr. Obama
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 05:05 AM

Not in my army mister. No exceptions. I don't care if you're the CEO of Boeing or Halliburton. You'll do a minimum of two years. And be eligible until you're 65.
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Subject: RE: BS: Reinstate the Draft Mr. Obama
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 05:37 AM

Speaking: the Hero by Felix Pollak

I did not want to go. the inducted me.

I did not want to die. the called me yellow.

I tried to run away. they court martialed me.

I did not shoot. they said I had no courage.

They ordered the attack. A shrapnel tore my guts

I cried in pain. They carried me to safety.

In safety I died. They threw taps over me.

they crossed out my name And bured me under a cross.

They made a speech in my hometown I was unable to call them liars.

They said I gave my life. I had struggled to keep it.

they said I set an example. I had tried to run.

They said they were proud of me. I was ashamed of them.

they said my mother should be proud. my mother cried.

I wanted to live. they called me a coward.

I died a coward. they called me a hero.

Subject: RE: BS: Reinstate the Draft Mr. Obama
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 05:40 AM

Henry -

Sorry old fart, but I did my 9 years and hsven't been 65 for almost a decade.

What did you do?

John

Subject: RE: BS: Reinstate the Draft Mr. Obama
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 05:41 AM

Pat Tillman?
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Subject: RE: BS: Reinstate the Draft Mr. Obama
From: Charmion
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 08:09 AM

Oh, Mr Krinkle, you surely know how to kick over the hornets' nest.

What you're describing is how the Canadian militia was organized from earliest colonial times until 1855: a Sedentary Militia comprising every able-bodied male adult, from which each county or district would form units of "embodied" militia in time of war, usually by ballot. It worked well in 1812; why not now?

And why limit yourself to men? Women make excellent soldiers, especially in combat support and combat service support roles, and their conscription would *really* get the public's attention.

John in Kansas: You don't have to house, feed, clothe and pay all of your conscripts; only those on active service at any given time. The rest can be designated the Supplementary Reserve (or some such) and required to support themselves while waiting for the famous brown envelope.

I rather like Mr Krinkle's requirement that the armed forces be completely self-sufficient to the extent of peeling their own potatoes and scrubbing their own toilets. Enough of this mercenary employment, I say! No more contractors!

Subject: RE: BS: Reinstate the Draft Mr. Obama
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 08:49 AM

I kinda like the idea of draft everyone... But then again I lean toward Marxism...

But seriously, national service should be part of everyone's life... I'm not talking their entire life but just part of it... I'd love to see a national "Vista" program where the government would pay for your college if you gave back 4 years living on subsistent wages... I mean, a lot of folks could work in hospitals which would bring down the costs of health care... Others could work for Habitat for Humanity building low cost housing for the poor... Others could work in community gardens helping people grow their own food...

The possibilities are endless...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Reinstate the Draft Mr. Obama
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 09:31 AM

National service..... there's this thing called The Peace Corps......

Subject: RE: BS: Reinstate the Draft Mr. Obama
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 10:16 AM

Ah, but it's not compulsory.

Perhaps compulsory national service, such as Switzerland, Israel and other countries have, would be appropriate -- it needn't be military (except in the case of a DECLARED war, with the usual CO status). Perhaps it would provide a sense of actual "ownership" of the country -- and perhaps increase the number of voters who actually vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Reinstate the Draft Mr. Obama
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 10:44 AM

Ah, but Rap, that's creeping Socialism - you'd never get the TeaPublicans and their Fellow Travellers to go along with that- even worse than "Obamacare"[sic]

Subject: RE: BS: Reinstate the Draft Mr. Obama
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 02:07 PM

So right, Greg! ;-) The thing that's so lovely about the government hiring all these private contractors like Blackwater to provide fighting forces instead of having the government train soldiers to do it is...when those guys fight, they do it for profit! No confusing altruistic, socialist motives there like defending the nation or serving some higher purpose or ideal...just pure greed for cash, and who cares where it comes from or what happens because of it? THAT's the spirit that makes America great, yessir!

Subject: RE: BS: Reinstate the Draft Mr. Obama
From: Stringsinger
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 02:37 PM

L.H. is correct. The privatization of wars is ably described by journalist
Jeremy Scahill who has written the definitive book on Blackwater and other private warriors. It's a must read to understand what is going on in the Mid-East.

Romney would be right at home with privatizing wars as he is with all the other
public government functions. He has shown that he will be (if he gets in) a dictator on the order of Benito Mussolini who defined the original meaning of fascism, the takeover of government by corporations. Guess what we have in the US now?

The draft might be reinstated if he gets in just as a "patriotic power play".

I agree with Margaret Mead, however, that young people should be drafted not to fight wars but to serve in a constructive community service very much like the Peace Corps.

Subject: RE: BS: Reinstate the Draft Mr. Obama
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 04:03 PM

LH, as much as it pains me to say so- and believe me, it pains me a great deal - on this 'un you may have hit the nail on the head.

Subject: RE: BS: Reinstate the Draft Mr. Obama
From: gnu
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 04:48 PM

Ahhh, ja, ze Sviss. Zey vear lederhosen tooo... DON"TTHEY!?

Subject: RE: BS: Reinstate the Draft Mr. Obama
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 05:32 PM

Everyone talks about the Peace Corps but Vista was like a domestic Peace Corps... That's what we need the most... National service...

Hey, here's an idea... How about education??? It is apparent that there are way too many Americans who are severely under-educated and therefore susceptible to propaganda and irresponsible voting... That is a danger to everyone...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Reinstate the Draft Mr. Obama
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 05:43 PM

The best education might be to visit other nations (in a peaceful manner, I mean) and find out how the people there think, and why.

Subject: RE: BS: Reinstate the Draft Mr. Obama
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 06:09 PM

Thank you, Charmion. I love kicking hornet's nests. Askour resident egg sucker, Greg.And yes, I want to include women in the draft. And John in Kansas, I have two Honorable Discharges. Air Force and Army. I was an Engineer in the army. Heavy Construction Equipment Operator. I don't just talk the talk, I walk the walk. No brag, just fact.
I even want to draft convicts, the mentally ill, crippled folks, you name it.

Subject: RE: BS: Reinstate the Draft Mr. Obama
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 06:17 PM

And what about Chimps?

Subject: RE: BS: Reinstate the Draft Mr. Obama
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 06:39 PM

We can use them in the space program. Test pilots for the first trip to the moon.
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Subject: RE: BS: Reinstate the Draft Mr. Obama
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 07:51 PM

Chimps would make great hand-to-hand combat instructors. They're acknowledged masters of the ancient martial art of Flung Poo.

Subject: RE: BS: Reinstate the Draft Mr. Obama
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 07:56 PM

Yezzir, Beeze... You done hit the poo chucker on the head...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Reinstate the Draft Mr. Obama
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 08:23 PM

There you go AGAIN! Shocking specism! ;-) Hang your heads in shame!

Subject: RE: BS: Reinstate the Draft Mr. Obama
From: gnu
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 08:31 PM

"I was an Engineer in the army. Heavy Construction Equipment Operator."

Two jobs? Did you get paid for each?

Subject: RE: BS: Reinstate the Draft Mr. Obama
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 02:49 AM

Engineers: Branch of the U.S. Army that handles construction and demolition.
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Subject: RE: BS: Reinstate the Draft Mr. Obama
From: Charmion
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 06:25 AM

We call 'em sappers, gnu-zer; they're the guys with the beaver cap badge who aren't Van Doos. New Brinswick is full of them, especially around Gagetown.

Subject: RE: BS: Reinstate the Draft Mr. Obama
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 06:39 PM

Nice name Charmion.
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