BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition

Subject: BS: Good old Theresa May
From: Silas
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 08:43 AM

I didn't really think she would do it......

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 08:48 AM

About the only thing so far this Nazi government has done which is right!

Gary McKinnon extradition to the U.S. blocked by Theresa May

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May
From: theleveller
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 09:03 AM

I agree with Lizzie. The US were simply using bully-boy tactics to disguise their red faces. As a spokesperson from Liberty said on the radio, they shouldn't be trying to prosecute him, they should employ him.

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 04:27 AM

Credit where it's due. Full marks.

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 05:06 AM

Theresa May is a hellhound but on this she is (most unusually) right. Indeed let us hope she attacks the very basis of the UK/US extradition treaty. And while she may be going OTT on EU "justice" reforms, a reform of the European arrest warrant is overdue.

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May
From: GUEST,Seayaker
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 05:22 AM

I think she made the right call here and the US should vent their spleen on the people who were responsible for their computer security.

Interesting timing though; it looks as if Abu Qatada had a case to resist extradition on these terms.

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 05:33 AM

I'm no fan of Theresa May by any stretch of the imagination, but just this once I think she got it about right. Congratulations.

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 05:35 AM

Mr Ahmad's family said: "Why within the space of two weeks, a British citizen with Asperger's accused of computer-related activity is not extradited, while two other British citizens, one with Asperger's, engaged in computer-related activity are extradited. A clear demonstration of double standards"'

seems to be the point ref'd in last post. But it does not follow: no 'double standards' obtain, but simply a judging of each case on its own individual merits which must surely always be the procedure.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 06:12 AM

Please particularise the other two cases to which reference is made.

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 06:29 AM

The medical grounds she cited in her house of commons statement would appear to have been as valid 10 years ago when this affair started, as they were yesterday when the statement was made.

Why so long?

The question now is this. Will they use his mental health as an excuse to not prosecute him at all. For what is after all, a criminal offence, committed in the UK; albeit against the US. If they do so, just how cross will the US authorities be, and what punishment will they mete out to the UK, for refusing to bend the knee?

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May
From: Penny S.
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 08:43 AM

I can't help thinking that she has done this as cover for something else she is about to do - but then I get a bit paranoid every now and then.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 09:00 AM

It fits with her rebuttal of EU justice systems.

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May
From: GUEST,Ebor_Fiddler
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 06:21 PM

I've never had a good word to say for the woman. This is a refreshing change - will it continue?

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 02:49 PM

Good old Theresa May my arse, it was a vain attempt to prove that the Tory's care about people , to try and improve their image.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 19 Oct 12 - 03:57 AM

I am pleased that McKinnon is not to be extradited, but I have wondered if the timing of the announcement - in the middle of a US Presidential campaign. Was it designed to stir up a reaction in America which Romney could use against Obama.
Theresa May does not do anything out of "Goodness".
Mind you, I am disgusted that Blair didn't do anything when he was in power.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: Bert
Date: 19 Oct 12 - 12:04 PM

I am continually surprised at the number of people who rush to blame the victim the US should vent their spleen on the people who were responsible for their computer security..

This crook caused over $700,000 worth of damage. But that's OK. 'cos the poor little bastard is sick.

Next time you spend hours rebuilding your system because some other asshole has damaged it; think about how you should let the poor sick hacker go free.

These guys cause billions of dollars worth of damage to computers throughout the world and should be made to pay restitution in full when they are caught as well as serve long sentences.

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Oct 12 - 01:53 PM

Where are the rendition teams? He needs a few years in a penitentiary.

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Oct 12 - 02:12 PM

The US can sue him in the UK. Or perhaps they don't want to do so in a country where the judiciary stands up to the government.

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: Bert
Date: 19 Oct 12 - 03:08 PM

The UK should put its money where its mouth is and pay for the damage that he caused.

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Oct 12 - 06:18 PM

That's stupid. The UK did not cause the alleged damage.

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Oct 12 - 02:56 AM

Mr. McKinnon should be tried for the crimes he is alleged to have committed, in the country in which those crimes took place - the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Had an American citizen, sitting in his bedroom in the USA, hacked into the UK government's computer system, the USA would not agree to extradite him to the UK, so why do US-Ian's demand and expect the UK to extradite Mr. McKinnon?

It's reported that some loud-mouth yank politician playing to the gallery stated that Mr. mcKinnon 'should fry' as punishment for his crimes. It's a pity that politician seems to have no understanding of the nature of Asperger's Syndrome, and what effect that statement would have on Mr. mcKinnon.

The US government, far from seeking extradition of Mr. McKinnon and 'frying' him, should award him the Congressional Medal of Honour (note the OED - and therefore correct - spelling of 'honour') for exposing a security system which, at best, could be described as 'shitty', and at worst as 'totally unfit for purpose'.

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 20 Oct 12 - 11:49 AM

Aspie's are not whining little weenies that become suicidal every time anyone wants to hold them responsible for something they've done, and Aspie's *are* perfectly able distinguish right from wrong.

They tend, in fact, to be quite good with rules and logic, which is why they are so good with computers in the first place.

If you want to give the US a slap in the face, for whatever reason, fine and all, but please don't misrepresent Asperger's Syndrome to do it, and please, please, stop characterizing Aspie's as being sick or any of that.

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Oct 12 - 12:15 PM

""This crook caused over $700,000 worth of damage. But that's OK. 'cos the poor little bastard is sick.""

O.K. Bert. Care to tell us how hacking into a computer did $700,000 worth of actual damage?

Or is that what they had to spend on better security to make it impervious?

Because, if the latter is true, he did them a big favour putting right the incompetence ofthe original programmers.

Aspergers is only one form of autism, and while it is true that autistic individuals are not ill and do know right from wrong, many of them are incapable of leaving a task uncompleted, so when something piques their curiosity, they follow it through to the end.

I've worked with autistic children who couldn't function during playground breaks, if they hadn't finished what they were doing just before.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: Bert
Date: 20 Oct 12 - 12:16 PM

I think you should change your handle to Backwardsman.

By your reasoning, if somebody in, say Cuba, launched a missile at the USA; then they should be tried in Cuba.

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Oct 12 - 12:28 PM

That, Bert, is how territoriality works. The world is not the US's colony. The US has no juridical power to legislate as to what is or is not unlawful in Cuba. Cuba is an independent country. Perhaps you do not recognise this concept.

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Oct 12 - 12:39 PM

Thanks Richard. Perhaps I'm not so backward after all, eh? :-). :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Oct 12 - 12:42 PM

Well, I may still disagree with some of what you say, but not this time!

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Oct 12 - 01:17 PM

It's a miracle! :-)
You'd probably be surprised by the number of things on which we do actually agree. Unfortunately, when we disagree we tend to be in complete diametrical opposition, and I guess we both tend to express ourselves in unequivocal terms. But I try never to hold a grudge! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 20 Oct 12 - 03:09 PM

McKinnon left this message one one of the computers:

"US foreign policy is akin to Government-sponsored terrorism these days … It was not a mistake that there was a huge security stand down on September 11 last year … I am SOLO. I will continue to disrupt at the highest levels"

That's why he did it. Not because he was depressed, not because he had Asperger's. Claiming that he was a loony who just got caught up in his search for classified UFO information is a lot easier than dealing with the point he was trying to make.

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Oct 12 - 09:31 PM

Hard to see how that cost anybody $700,000 though!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Oct 12 - 01:44 AM

It'd be hard to see McKinnon's defence to proceedings under the Computer Misuse Act - brought in the UK. Sections 4 to 9 deal with jurisdiction.

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: GUEST,Noddy
Date: 21 Oct 12 - 06:25 AM

take a visit to Blogger. com and read what Living Large in Rural Perthshire has to say on it. Very Funny.

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: theleveller
Date: 21 Oct 12 - 07:10 AM

"I think you should change your handle to Backwardsman."


hahahah...this coming from someone who lives in a country where they still practice juducial murder, allow their citizens to run around indisicriminately wielding guns and whose idea of international justice is rendition, torture and Guantanemo Bay. Let me tell you, sunshine, you're not just backward, you're bloody barbarians compared to the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Oct 12 - 08:04 AM

Where's that "like" button?

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: GUEST,Noddy
Date: 21 Oct 12 - 08:14 AM

As Living Large in Rural Perthshire says using "Password" as the password is not the best defence.
It reminds me of that great oxymoron

American Intelligence!

Oh yes if you work for American National Security you might need someone to explain that one to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Oct 12 - 03:19 PM

So sorry about that $700,000 worth of damage to the US war machine Bert, hahahaha. (Pity it wasn't more.)

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 21 Oct 12 - 03:52 PM

I am extremely pleased that he is not to be extradited. I heard (on the radio) someone from the US military complaining about how unfair it is that he will not be. My own feeling is that if the UK has no right to extradite US citizens, how can "we" (i.e. the US) possibly expect the UK to simply hand over its own citizens just because we demand it? (And why on earth did Mr Blair & co consent to such a ridiculously one-sided agreement in the first place? But that's a different question...)

Anyway, HURRAH!

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Oct 12 - 03:59 PM

Nice one, YY. My sentiments precisely.

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: Bert
Date: 21 Oct 12 - 04:22 PM

YY That is a different issue which of course should be fixed.

As to jurisdiction; if somebody puts a virus on my computer they are committing a crime in my home. Hackers cause billions of dollars worth of damage throughout the world and you guys think it is some kind of game and the poor kids should go unpunished.

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Oct 12 - 05:17 PM

Nonsense. No one is advocating that Mr. McKinnon should go unpunished, but that he should face the legal process in his own country because that's where he was when he committed the offence.

The principle of Territoriality, which is a foundation of International Law, has already been explained here by a lawyer. For goodness' sake knock it off, Bert, you're starting to make yourself look foolish.

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 21 Oct 12 - 06:10 PM

In defence and having an Autistic daughter, may I just say that they have obsessions and many are very intelligent. I just feel sorry for him, in as much as nobody was controlling his obsession.

I doubt if he is dangeous as such, but by god how he managed to do what he did defies logic. Just how secure were things.

Just trying to look at it from an autistic persons point of view.

Most people do not understand their behaviour. Much is the pity.

OK I have my anti missile shield attached :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Oct 12 - 06:35 PM

"No one is advocating that Mr. McKinnon should go unpunished"

Actually a lot of people (in both countries) do share the view that in exposing flaws in these government computer systems he was actually doing the US government a great service, and it ought to be grateful rather than wanting him punished.

It might be embarrassing for the US Defence Department to be shown up in this way, but so what?

As has been pointed out, this figure of $700,000, or whatever it is, is almost certainly made up mostly of the cost of blocking the gaps in security which McKinnon showed up, before someone with genuinely hostile intentions can make use of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Oct 12 - 07:44 PM

Why is the US afraid to press for a UK trial? Is it afraid of a fair trial?

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Oct 12 - 03:41 AM

McG, I agree, and have stated so several times on this thread and the 'computer hacker' thread that, far from demanding extradition of the unfortunate Mr. McKinnon, the US government should invite him as a guest, and award him the Congressional Medal of Honour for the outstanding service he has given their nation in exposing the hideous weakness of the security on their computer systems.

Arthur, I understand the nature of Autiism/Asperger's, sadly others (Americans BTW - go figure!) don't appear to - if they did, their loudmouth, showboating politicians wouldn't be demanding the death sentence for Mr. McKinnon, and they certainly wouldn't use appalling language such as "He should fry".

Richard - I think you're right, they're not interested in a fair trial, they just want revenge. Plus ca change.......(sorry, don't know how to do a cedilla in HTML).

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 22 Oct 12 - 10:01 AM

Lest we forget, the "unfortunate Mr. McKInnon" was responsible for undermining defense security systems on 9/11/2001, which obstructed the response to the bombing of the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: GUEST,Peter K (Fionn) in Jordan, sans cookie
Date: 22 Oct 12 - 10:46 AM

Sorry Bert and everyone else, the 21 Oct 12 - 03:19 PM post was mine. Didn't mean to hide.

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Oct 12 - 11:00 AM

""Lest we forget, the "unfortunate Mr. McKInnon" was responsible for undermining defense security systems on 9/11/2001, which obstructed the response to the bombing of the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.""

Says which red faced US government minion, and based on precisely what evidence?

If that crap had any basis in fact, it would not have taken the US government twelve years to get him tried, convicted and jailed for life.

Use your head man!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: theleveller
Date: 22 Oct 12 - 11:15 AM

"Lest we forget, the "unfortunate Mr. McKInnon" was responsible for undermining defense security systems on 9/11/2001, which obstructed the response to the bombing of the World Trade Center and the Pentagon."

Utter bollocks!

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 22 Oct 12 - 03:23 PM

From this document:

Neutral Citation Number: [2007] EWHC 762 (Admin)
Case No: CO/5897/2006
IN THE HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE
QUEEN'S BENCH DIVISION
DIVISIONAL COURT

Royal Courts of Justice
Strand, London, WC2A 2LL
03/04/2007
B e f o r e :

LORD JUSTICE MAURICE KAY
and
MR JUSTICE GOLDRING
____________________
:
Gary McKinnon
BetweenAppellant
- and -

Government of the USA
Secretary of State for the Home Dept

Respondents




The allegations

Mr McKinnon is British and lives in London. Between February 2001 and March 2002 he gained unauthorised access to 97 computers belonging to and used by the US Government. He was acting from his own computer in London. Through the internet, he identified US Government network computers with an open Microsoft Windows connection. From those computers, he extracted the identities of certain administrative accounts and associated passwords. Having gained access to those administrative accounts, he installed unauthorised remote access and administrative software called "remotely anywhere" that enabled him to access and alter data upon the American computers at any time and without detection by virtue of the programme masquerading as a Windows operating system.
Once "remotely anywhere" was installed, Mr McKinnon proceeded to install his "suite of hacking tools" – software that he used to facilitate further compromises to the computers which also facilitated the concealment of his activities. Using this software, he was able to scan over 73,000 US Government computers for other computers and networks susceptible to compromise in a similar fashion. He was thus able to lever himself from network to network and into a number of significant Government computers in different parts of the USA. The relevant ones were:
1.        53 Army computers, including computers based in Virginia and Washington that controlled the Army's Military District of Washington network and are used in furtherance of national defence and security [charges 1 to 2]
2.        26 Navy computers, including US Naval Weapons Station Earle, New Jersey. This was responsible for replenishing munitions and supplies for the deployed Atlantic Fleet [charges 6 to 8]
3.         16 NASA computers [charges 12 to 15]
4.        1 Department of Defense computer [charges 17 to 18].
Once the computers were accessible by Mr McKinnon, he deleted data including:
(1)        Critical operating system files from nine computers, the deletion of which shut down the entire US Army's Military District of Washington network of over 2000 computers for 24 hours, significantly disrupting Governmental functions [charges 1 to 3]
(2)        2,455 user accounts on a US Army computer that controlled access to an Army computer network, causing those computers to reboot and become inoperable [charges 1 to 3]
(3)        Critical Operating system files and logs from computers at US Naval Weapons Station Earle, one of which was used for monitoring the identity, location, physical condition, staffing and battle readiness of Navy ships. Deletion of these files rendered the Base's entire network of over 300 computers inoperable at a critical time immediately following 11 September 2001 and thereafter left the network vulnerable to other intruders [charges 8 to 10 and 11].
He also copied data and files onto his own computers, including operating system files containing account names and encrypted passwords from 22 computers. These comprised:
(1)        189 files from US Army computers [charges 4 and 5]
(2)        35 files from US Navy computers, including approximately 950 passwords from server computers at Naval Weapons Station Earle [charges 9 to 10]
(3)        6 files from NASA computers [charges 15 to 16].
Mr McKinnon's conduct was intentional and calculated to influence and affect the US Government by intimidation and coercion. As a result of his conduct, damage was caused to computers by impairing their integrity, availability and operation of programmes, systems, information and data on the computers, rendering them unreliable. The cost of repair totalled over $700,000.
In 2002 the compromises installed in three NASA computers were traced to Mr McKinnon's home computer in London. On 19 March 2002, pursuant to a request for mutual legal assistance, his computers were seized. Forensic analysis of them confirmed the above allegations. It provided evidence that:
(1) Mr McKinnon's computers contained administrative account names and passwords for 39 of the 97 compromised computers
(2) Of the 44 or so versions of "remotely anywhere" available on the internet, one of the many versions found on his computer was found on 71 of the 97 compromised computers
(3) 72 of the computers had "remotely anywhere" installed in a directory location selected uniquely by him
(4) A document found on his computer recommended the renaming of the "remotely anywhere" software to "ra.exe" and the "remotely anywhere" files found on 19 Army computers had been so renamed
(5) A further document found on his computer entitled "themethod.wri" contained detailed instructions as to how to undertake the above conduct
(6) His computer was not the subject of remote access from any other computers.
Pursuant to the request for mutual legal assistance, Mr McKinnon was interviewed under caution in London on 19 March 2002 and again on 8 August 2002. During those interviews he admitted responsibility for the intrusion into US Government computers and networks and the installation of "remotely anywhere" on them. This included the Army's Military District of Washington network and the Naval Weapons Station Earle network. He stated that he had copied files from the American computers onto his home computers and had deleted log files on the American computers so as to conceal his activities. He stated that his targets were high level US Army, Navy and Airforce computers and that his ultimate goal was to gain access to the US military classified information network. He admitted leaving a note on one Army computer that read:
"US foreign policy is akin to Government-sponsored terrorism these days … It was not a mistake that there was a huge security stand down on September 11 last year … I am SOLO. I will continue to disrupt at the highest levels … "
Like the District Judge, we have based that summary of the allegations on the written summary prepared by Mr Summers who appears on behalf of the United States Government. We emphasise at this stage that they are allegations, no more and no less.

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 22 Oct 12 - 03:43 PM

Hi Bert,

I agree with what you said here: "...if somebody puts a virus on my computer they are committing a crime in my home."

But Mr McKinnon did not put a virus on US govt computers, nor (as far as I am aware) did he do any serious damage (if any).

Yes, I know the military are saying he caused millions in damage and "undermined defense security systems on 9/11/2001", but - strangely (and sadly!) enough - I don't believe them. I wish I had enough trust in the US Military to believe that they aren't just trying to persuade everyone that what McKinnon did was so terrible that they should be able to do whatever they want to him... but I don't. Which is possibly the saddest thing of all.

And I don't think McKinnon deserves the treatment he'd likely get if he was imprisoned in the US... are you aware of how Bradley Manning has been treated?

- held in a 6x8 ft cell for 23 to 24 hours a day. In addition, when not sleeping, Manning was banned from lying down, or even using a wall to support him.

- punished through "degradation and humiliation", notably by forcing him to stand outside his cell naked during a morning inspection (apparently this was "retaliatory punishment" for speaking out over his treatment)

- awoken at 0500 hours and required to remain awake in his cell from 0500 to 2200 hours, and not permitted to lie down on his rack during the duty day. Nor was Manning permitted to lean his back against the cell wall; he had to sit upright on his rack without any back support.

- only allowed 20 minutes of "sunshine call" a day. In addition, he was permitted by guards to take no more than five minutes in the shower. On the rare occasions that he was allowed out of his cell, Manning was forced to wear shackles with metal hand and leg restraints. At least two guards accompanied him at all times.

The conditions were imposed, the US military has claimed, for Manning's own protection under a so-called "prevention of injury" order, or POI. But Manning's lawyer says there is clear evidence showing that the conditions were not imposed because of a risk of self-harm, and were instead used as a form of punishment. "The Brig's arbitrary policy to keep Manning subject to the harshest conditions possible shows an intent to punish Manning," the document says.

Coombs cites an incident in which Manning was forced to strip for an inspection after he remonstrated over his treatment at the detention centre. "It is well established that forced nudity is a classic humiliation technique. The only permissible inference is that the Brig intended to punish Manning by subjecting him to humiliating treatment because Manning correctly pointed out the absurdity of his POI status," it is claimed.

Complete article(Bradley Manning treatment in 'flagrant violation' of military code – lawyer) here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/aug/10/bradley-manning-military-code-lawyer

Or there's this article: UN Torture Chief: Bradley Manning Treatment Was Cruel, Inhuman
which includes such details as:

- For much of the time he was allowed to sleep only in boxer shorts and was told the restrictions were meant to prevent him from harming himself.

- After authorities denied an appeal from the soldier to ease up on his conditions and cited risk of self-harm as justification, Manning quipped to prison personnel that he could just as easily harm himself with the elastic waistband in his boxer shorts. A chief warrant officer at the brig subsequently ordered Manning stripped of his undershorts as well, according to Manning's civilian defense attorney David Coombs, who recounted the incident on his blog.

- Manning ...was abruptly placed on suicide watch by the commander of the brig. During the suicide watch, Manning was confined to his cell around the clock, while a guard sat outside watching him. He was also stripped to his underwear, and his prescription eyeglasses were taken from him and returned only during the one hour a day when he was permitted to watch television and read.

(The Defense Department had responded to Coombs' complaint saying Manning's undergarments were taken from him out of "concerns for PFC Manning's personal safety" and that Manning "at all times had a bed and a blanket to cover himself. He was not made to stand naked for morning count but, but on one day, he chose to do so. There were no female personnel present at the time. PFC Manning has since been issued a garment to sleep in at night. He is clothed in a standard jumpsuit during the day.")

Can't remember where I heard/read it, but I also believe Manning was prevented from sleeping for days (weeks? months? don't know) on end by being woken every hour or so in order to confirm that he was "all right"/had not self-harmed - again, out of "concerns for his personal safety".

All you need to do is Google "bradley manning torture" and you'll find all kinds of stuff (much of it from reputable sources).

So... that's the kind of treatment I could certainly see making someone feel suicidal... even if they did not have any "mental problem" at all to start with. Yes, the Military have been promising they'll treat McKinnon reasonably/not torture him... but I get the very strong impression that what I consider "reasonable/not torture" is very, VERY different from what the US Military considers it to be. And it also strikes me as entirely likely that if they could get away with it, the Military would be more than happy to treat McKinnon in a strikingly similar way to how they've treated Manning.

So... it seems to me completely appropriate that McKinnon does not serve time in a US jail (and especially not a US Miliary jail), and I'm truly pleased that he won't have to.

(And if you've read all the way through my post - thank you & well done.)

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Oct 12 - 05:29 PM

All that list "GUEST,Stim" gave us does is to bring out more clearly what an absolute shambles the Defence Department computer system must have been to make it possible for a young man in a bedroom with a computer to do that stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Oct 12 - 05:55 PM

Stim, read carefully, from the report you have provided. "We emphasise at this stage that they are allegations, no more and no less"

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 22 Oct 12 - 08:08 PM

This is actually a sad situation for Mr. McKinnon, because he has been deprived of the opportunity to argue before an American court that:

A) He is entitled to hack through any and every computer system, no matter what damage it might do, because he's looking for evidence of UFOs, as he contends

B) That he is entitled to hack through any and every computer system, no matter what damage it might do, because the systems were poorly designed, as Backwoodsman and others contend,

C) that he is entitled to hack through any and every computer system, no matter what damage it might do, because he can do it from the privacy of his bedroom, as McGrath contends.

Also, and I only say this, because I believe that Mr. McKinnon is sincere in his desire to expose the conspiracy to conceal UFOs, he has been deprived the opportunity to subpoena the very documents that he was seeking, and to use them to vindicate himself.

Those of us who have seen the "X-Files" know that finally, had Mr. McKinnon shown us that "the truth is out there", he would have been embraced by all, even by his adversaries.

That's a lot to take away from a man.

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 22 Oct 12 - 08:23 PM

Stim, the UK has not said he will not be tried/punished/serve time in jail - just that it won't be in the US.

And BTW, anyone who thinks that spending 10 years of your life terrified of what's going to happen to you and fighting for (what you believe to be) your life is "getting off scot-free" might want to think again...

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Oct 12 - 08:31 PM

But, Stim, those are not his defences. Do try to keep up.

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 23 Oct 12 - 01:03 AM

My impression is that he actually does not have a defense, as such. He does say that he was stoned for much of the time, which may work in the UK, but, to my knowledge, has not been notably successful here (Bobert may know more about this than I do, however).

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Oct 12 - 01:40 AM

Stim, he doesn't want to be tried in the US because he's afraid that he won't get a fair trial (ask the internees in Guantanamo about American justice). And he's terrified that having been tried unfairly, he would be fried - literally fried (he suffers from a well-understood symptom of Asperger's syndrome, the inability to understand language in context - which, in case YOU don't understand that, means he takes everything literally so, when your big-gob idiot politicians say "He should fry", his understanding is that he will literally be fried).

And he has spent the past ten years of his life in a mental prison created by the vengeful US. Long enough, too long in fact.

If the CPS decide he has a case to answer, he will face a fair trial in his home country and, if found guilty, he will receive a fair sentence which certainly won't involve the death penalty that some of your idiot countrymen have demanded.

You really do need to button it, Stim, you really are making yourself look very foolish.

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: theleveller
Date: 23 Oct 12 - 03:16 AM

"The allegations"

I think the second word is the key. Obviously, in your eyes he's already guilty. Seems to sum up US justice.

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: theleveller
Date: 23 Oct 12 - 03:31 AM

On the other side of the coin, the US government thinks that it's fine for them to hack into our computers, mobile phones and other communication devices through its base at Menwith Hill

Talk about double standards.

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: Silas
Date: 23 Oct 12 - 07:03 AM

"B) That he is entitled to hack through any and every computer system, no matter what damage it might do, because the systems were poorly designed, as Backwoodsman and others contend,"

And there, Stim old chap, is the problem. The worlds greatest military power has a computer system that is hackable from a guy in his bedroom on a laptop.Thankfully his interest was harmless, it don't do to think too long about just what hostile hacker could have done.

This guy may, for all we know, have prevented a nuclear war, and you want him executed?

Sounds like a typically mad American insular response to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 23 Oct 12 - 10:02 AM

And he has spent the past ten years of his life in a mental prison created by the vengeful US. Long enough, too long in fact.

If the CPS decide he has a case to answer, he will face a fair trial in his home country and, if found guilty, he will receive a fair sentence which certainly won't involve the death penalty that some... have demanded.

Spot on, BW!

As I mentioned before, it's hard for me to believe he caused the hundreds$ of thousand$ in damages that are claimed. Seems much more likely that's what it cost to bring the security up to speed, once they realized how dire it was (as someone above has already suggested - sorry, can't remember who now), in which case, it's like telling the court that a burglar should pay "damages" - for the locks you installed on your doors after you realized (thanks to his visit) that you really ought to have had some...

IMHO, the US Military is embarrassed and incredibly angry at Mr McK for making them look stupid, and want (in addition to revenge) to make such an example of him that nobody will ever dare to even THINK of trying to hack their computers ever, ever, EVER again.

Dream on, guys...

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Oct 12 - 11:37 AM

Good post YY.
BTW and FWIW, by no means do I consider all US politicians to be idiots, just the ones baying for this poor guy's blood, and who refuse to acknowledge that the UK is not the 51st State.

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Oct 12 - 12:11 PM

""Critical Operating system files and logs from computers at US Naval Weapons Station Earle, one of which was used for monitoring the identity, location, physical condition, staffing and battle readiness of Navy ships. Deletion of these files rendered the Base's entire network of over 300 computers inoperable at a critical time immediately following 11 September 2001 and thereafter left the network vulnerable to other intruders [charges 8 to 10 and 11].""

So, it would appear that they allege after the planes crashed into the twin towers, he left the US Navy network vulnerable What might, as a result, have happened to the navy, which wasn't being attacked, isn't altogether clear.

""US foreign policy is akin to Government-sponsored terrorism these days … It was not a mistake that there was a huge security stand down on September 11 last year … I am SOLO. I will continue to disrupt at the highest levels … ""

Surely, if this is anything more than an opportunist and boastful claim of responsibility for something which was not actually of his doing, there would be evidence of his actions on 9/11. So where is it?

""Like the District Judge, we have based that summary of the allegations on the written summary prepared by Mr Summers who appears on behalf of the United States Government. We emphasise at this stage that they are allegations, no more and no less.""

Finally, something believable, that all this is a series of allegations, nothing more, nothing less.

Of course, the representative of a government which has the hots for making an epic example of the man who highlighted the porosity of its security systems wouldn't lie.................would he?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 23 Oct 12 - 04:42 PM

Given that Mr. McKinnon will not be extradited, and given that no charges have ever been made against him at home, it is all over.

Regrettably, this thread reminds all of us in America that many of our "friends" from across the pond carry bitter anger toward us, and it doesn't take much to bring it out.

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Oct 12 - 05:12 PM

The current trend of the USA towards unthinking bigotry and theocracy, and its arrogance in its remaining power to cause "shock and awe" makes the rest of the world wisely cautious.

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 23 Oct 12 - 05:47 PM

There you go again!

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 23 Oct 12 - 05:48 PM

"...this thread reminds all of us in America..."

Including Canadians? (Actually, I'd be extremely interested in knowing what most Canadians think on this issue.) That's America, too (not to mention Mexicans, and folks who live in Central and South America)...

And - just in case you think I'm someone from across the pond the pond and "carrying bitter anger" - I want to make it clear that I'm a US-ian and I do love my country.

I'm even proud of it sometimes. But there are also times (and sadly, not just a few here & there) when its/our behavior is arrogant, petty, ignorant, foolhardy, selfish and bullying, and I am not proud of us then. And before you ask, I felt like that before I moved to England (for love - not because I didn't want to live in the US anymore). Although living abroad has certainly made me more aware of how the US looks to other countries - and it is not always pretty (that's a sample of English-style understatement, BTW).

Can't imagine why the following incident from my childhood has just come to mind:
My (two) brothers were fighting, and when Mom came over to settle things, one piped up in his own defense, "He hit me back first!"

Cheers,
A sadder but wiser US expat

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: Will Fly
Date: 23 Oct 12 - 06:19 PM

Regrettably, this thread reminds all of us in America that many of our "friends" from across the pond carry bitter anger toward us, and it doesn't take much to bring it out.

I don't believe that for a minute, Stim. It's quite possible to believe that the American people as a nation are decent and civilised. I've corresponded with many Americans over many years and found friendship and humanity. My partner has visited the US on many occasions and been treated with kindness and civility - open arms, in fact - wherever she and her friends went.

What I object to is the thuggery of governments - in whatever country they are - which threaten, bully and attempt to coerce just to get their own way. And I would apply that to aspects of the government in the UK as much as those in the US. Let's not confuse anger at régimes with anger at individuals in the countries governed by those régimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Oct 12 - 07:18 PM

What Will said!

No problem with the ordinary US man in the street, tho' we do tend to feel he needs to broaden his spectrum of news gathering, and pay more attention to what, exactly, he is voting for, rather than against.

The US government, however, we trust as far as we can see it, bearing in mind that it is over 3000 miles away and the horizon just 8 miles!!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Oct 12 - 08:27 PM

I am following the US election as closely as I reasonably can. The fact that the election is so close at present indicates to me that about half Americans are beyond the pale. What I have seen on others' facebook threads is full of extraordinary ignorance an bigotry from Repuglicans - yet there is a risk that they may win this election. It's very alarming.

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 23 Oct 12 - 10:07 PM

Will-I didn't say "all" , or even most, and, I most certainly did not say "Will Fly" as you are alway a gentleman, and are nowise an exception in that regard-

Comments like these pop up with a tiresome frequency, hence my comment:

"hahahah...this coming from someone who lives in a country where they still practice juducial murder, allow their citizens to run around indisicriminately wielding guns and whose idea of international justice is rendition, torture and Guantanemo Bay. Let me tell you, sunshine, you're not just backward, you're bloody barbarians compared to the UK."

"Sounds like a typically mad American insular response to me."

"The current trend of the USA towards unthinking bigotry and theocracy, and its arrogance in its remaining power to cause "shock and awe" makes the rest of the world wisely cautious."

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 12:22 AM

I'm in complete agreement with Will and Don.
Stim, you'd be we'll advised to engage your brain before opening your mouth. Blaming negative comments about the US simply as 'bitter anger' is nothing more than the cop-out of someone who slavishly accepts and believes that there's only one valid 'side' to any debate, and that the US is always right.
I'm often impressed by the pride US-Ian's have in their country - something that the PC-brigade have tried hard to make us in the UK feel is immoral or unethical - but that pride seems often to blind them to 'the other side' of the debate, and to refuse to try to understand that other nations and nationals can actually be right. This is what gives rise to comments like the one about 'mad insularity' - it's because that's how you present yourselves.
I've said all I intend to say on this one, other than to suggest you read, re-read, and re-read again and again the last few sagely posts from Yorkshire Yankee, Will Fly and Don T with an open mind, and learn from them.

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: theleveller
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 03:13 AM

"hahahah...this coming from someone who lives in a country where they still practice juducial murder, allow their citizens to run around indisicriminately wielding guns and whose idea of international justice is rendition, torture and Guantanemo Bay. Let me tell you, sunshine, you're not just backward, you're bloody barbarians compared to the UK."

Was, of course, in response to:

"I think you should change your handle to Backwardsman."

Not only are you blinkered, you have a very short (or selective) memory. If you start a fight, don't whine when someone stands up to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: theleveller
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 03:32 AM

"Regrettably, this thread reminds all of us in America that many of our "friends" from across the pond carry bitter anger toward us, and it doesn't take much to bring it out."

No, no...we love you because you make such intelligent comments about us:

"England [sic] is just a small island. Its roads and houses are small. With few exceptions, it doesn't make things that people in the rest of the world want to buy. And if it hadn't been separated from the continent by water, it almost certainly would have been lost to Hitler's ambitions." Mitt Romney.

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 03:54 AM

And, Stim, friends - real friends - don't just agree with you no matter what. Real friends are the ones who tell you the hard truth when you're wrong, the ones who help you to see another, better, more human, way even when your arrogance and aggression is directed towards them. Works exactly the same for nations as it does for individuals.

Think on that, lad.

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: Howard Jones
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 08:28 AM

The current extradition treaty was brought in as a response to terrorism. The US constitution imposed some safeguards for US citizens, unfortunately the same doesn't apply in the UK.

If its use been restricted to terrorist suspects then (I'm sorry to say) public opinion would probably not have been too concerned with their human rights. However it has been used to extradite people for some very technical white-collar crimes. Seeing a pensioner handcuffed and put in prison and while awaiting trial for allegedly getting export paperwork wrong strikes many here as disproportionate and harsh. It is cases like this which have turned public opinion against the extradition arrangements.

Where an alleged offence has been committed by UK citizens on UK soil then we expect the matter to be dealt with firstly by a UK court. If extradition is sought we expect the grounds to be tested in a British court rather than it just being rubber-stamped. That is not being anti-American, it is about standing up for our own rights under our own legal system.

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: GUEST,Noddy
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 10:28 AM

From the vpoint bof view that it was easy for him to gain access to so much information of such high security . Think what could have happened if he had done so with malice in mind. ....as a terrorist .


The US simply left their rather posh and expensive car at the top of a hill with the hand break off and are now upset that it ran down the hill and got badly damaged. They are trying to shift the blame of their inadequacy onto the guy hwho pointed it out to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: Howard Jones
Date: 27 Oct 12 - 09:50 AM

One of those the US successfully extradited, Christopher Tappin, is reported to have agreed a plea bargaining deal

To Americans no doubt this seems perfectly normal, but to us it looks highly suspect. Is he actually guilty? I don't know, and I suspect he doesn't either, faced with a very technical charge based on whether he knew, or should have known, that the stuff he was exporting could potentially be used for military purposes. However faced with a 35 year jail sentence (at the age of 66) on one hand, and a few months which could very well be served in a British prison where his wife can visit him, this looks like a pragmatic decision. What it doesn't look like is anything resembling justice. If he's truly guilty he's got off lightly and if he's innocent it's a miscarriage of justice.

It should be a fundamental right that if someone is to be extradited to a foreign country to face charges they should know what those charges are and have them presented to a court. Americans certainly believe that, which is why their constitution insists on a proper court hearing before an American can be extradited to the UK.

The Blair government was wrong to agree to this in the first place. British public opinion sees this as the US throwing its weight around, and hauling British subjects off to face a suspect system of justice on what appear to be, in some cases at least, dubious and possibly politically-motivated grounds. The Times today points out that this is actually damaging US-UK relations.

No one is suggesting that extradition should be stopped, just that requests should be fully tested in the British courts.

Subject: RE: BS: Good old Theresa May-blocks extradition
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 04 Nov 12 - 03:51 AM

Whales are the most intelligent creatures on earth.

Dave H