BS: Tall Ship Bounty Abandoned in Storm!

Subject: RE: BS: Tall Ship Bounty Abandoned in Storm!
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 29 Oct 12 - 07:20 PM

CBC reports that Claudene did not survive.

This news will affect many tall ship folks around the world and all their friends.

Captain is still missing.

Subject: RE: BS: Tall Ship Bounty Abandoned in Storm!
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 Oct 12 - 07:23 PM

Sad news for her family.

The Coast Guard certainly are doing all they possibly can, and maybe even more.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Tall Ship Bounty Abandoned in Storm!
From: maeve
Date: 29 Oct 12 - 07:43 PM

gnu: '...living close to salt water, knowing freinds and relatives who "go to sea"... that makes some situations more "personal"? '

Not just you, gnu.

Subject: RE: BS: Tall Ship Bounty Abandoned in Storm!
From: michaelr
Date: 29 Oct 12 - 08:20 PM

Apparently the decision to sail was made because the risk of the ship being battered to shreds when tied up in a storm surge was deemed greater than the risk of sailing.

Subject: RE: BS: Tall Ship Bounty Abandoned in Storm!
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 Oct 12 - 08:37 PM

CBC Halifax update at 8 pm:

"Bounty crew member Claudene Christian is in critical condition in an Elizabeth City, N.C., hospital after being found by the U.S. Coast Guard on Monday evening.

An earlier report said Christian, 42, had died."

Maybe there is hope. This story is now confirmed by Reuters.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Tall Ship Bounty Abandoned in Storm!
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Oct 12 - 08:42 PM

**crossing fingers**

Subject: RE: BS: Tall Ship Bounty Abandoned in Storm!
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 29 Oct 12 - 08:44 PM

What a loss, so damn sad. There are few things as beautiful as a square rigged ship under sail. Or a Brig, or a barque, barquentine or brigantine...The Coast Guard cutter Eagle is a Barque.Gorgeous.
Damn.

Subject: RE: BS: Tall Ship Bounty Abandoned in Storm!
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 29 Oct 12 - 09:11 PM

The U.S. Coast Guard has recovered the body of a woman from the HMS Bounty replica sinking.

Claudene Christian, 42, was located by an MH-60 Jayhawk helicopter Monday evening. Her body was taken to Albemarle Hospital in Elizabeth City, N.C. The hospital confirmed the death of Christian to CBC News.



Still no sign of the captain.

Subject: RE: BS: Tall Ship Bounty Abandoned in Storm!
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 29 Oct 12 - 09:15 PM

It is Atlantic time:

Bounty in pictures
UPDATED 9:52 p.m.

Bounty crew member Claudene Christian died in a Elizabeth City, N.C., hospital after being found by the U.S. Coast Guard on Monday evening.

Hospital officials said Christian, 42, died just before 9:30 p.m. AT after being listed in critical condition upon arrival at the hospital.

A premature report from the U.S. Coast Guard said Christian had died earlier.

"She was unresponsive when we located her," coast guard Petty Officer 1st Class Brandyn Hill said in an interview around 7:15 p.m. Atlantic time.

Subject: RE: BS: Tall Ship Bounty Abandoned in Storm!
From: bobad
Date: 29 Oct 12 - 10:24 PM

UPDATE: Missing crew member, Claudene Christian, 42, was pulled from the water unconscious and later confirmed dead by the Coast Guard. Captain Robin Walbridge is still missing.

CBC News is reporting: Claudia McCann, whose husband Robin Walbridge is the captain of the Bounty, told CBC News her husband is one of the two missing crew members. CBC News has learned the other missing crew member is Claudene Christian.

Claudene Christian is reported to be a distant relative of Fletcher Christian, the original Master's Mate who seized command of the ship during the mutiny.

Subject: RE: BS: Tall Ship Bounty Abandoned in Storm!
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 Oct 12 - 10:25 PM

Yes, the death of Claudene Christian has now been confirmed from several sources. So sad. A miraculous survival would have been such heartening news.

There are stories that suggest she was actually related to Fletcher Christian of the original mutiny on the Bounty. But maybe that's all wistful reportage.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Tall Ship Bounty Abandoned in Storm!
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 29 Oct 12 - 10:32 PM

Sorry to hear.
=(:-( l)

Subject: RE: BS: Tall Ship Bounty Abandoned in Storm!
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Oct 12 - 11:09 PM

BAD LUCK To sail with a woman on board...even Capt. Sparrow could tell you THAT!

Subject: RE: BS: Tall Ship Bounty Abandoned in Storm!
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Oct 12 - 06:43 AM

Nice video of the ship in rough seas:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jI4Jh5_woT0

Subject: RE: BS: Tall Ship Bounty Abandoned in Storm!
From: Ed T
Date: 30 Oct 12 - 07:23 AM

Some ship info:

Statistics

Subject: RE: BS: Tall Ship Bounty Abandoned in Storm!
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Oct 12 - 07:49 AM

Here's a more detailed update from the Washington Post of the ship's last moments and the rescue efforts: http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/tall-ship-hms-bounty-sinks-off-nc-coast-two-still-missing/2012/10/29/d276daf8-21d8-11e2-8448

Actually this link didn't work when I just tested it; they may be doing further updates to the story.

There are still some unanswered questions but the drama is now over.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Tall Ship Bounty Abandoned in Storm!
From: Ed T
Date: 30 Oct 12 - 07:51 AM

RIP to those lost at sea.

Historically, over 600 who sailed from the small fishing and shipbuilding community of Lunenburg were lost at sea on 150 ships.
More recently you may recall the capsizing and sinking of the tall ship Concordia off Brazil in February 2010. The ship sank in 18 minutes. Fortunately all 64 survived, but spent 41 hours adrift in the stormy Atlantic.

Tall Ship Concordia


Lunenburg, sailing ships and the sea

Subject: RE: BS: Tall Ship Bounty Abandoned in Storm!
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Oct 12 - 09:42 AM

Here's a critical assessment of the HMS Bounty sinking by another tall ship captain who decided to remain in Nova Scotia rather than sail south: Click here for story

The captain of the Picton Castle says he can't understand why the Bounty was at sea Monday when a massive hurricane was forecast to hit.

Indeed, Dan Moreland postponed leaving Lunenburg more than a week ago precisely because of hurricane Sandy.

"It was an easy decision to make," he said. "It's black and white, there are no nuances with this. It's a huge system and that made the decision very simple."

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Tall Ship Bounty Abandoned in Storm!
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Oct 12 - 10:27 AM

Here's a link to a grim set of photos of the HMS Bounty actually sinking: Click here for photos!

Thanks to the hard work of the Coast Guard almost all of the crew members were saved.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Tall Ship Bounty Abandoned in Storm!
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Oct 12 - 01:04 PM

Sometimes these threads have a light moment amid the tragic.

Up above someone recommended "baton down the hatches." Was this an old ships custom when a storm approached?

Subject: RE: BS: Tall Ship Bounty Abandoned in Storm!
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 30 Oct 12 - 01:13 PM

Batten. Not baton.
=(:-( l)

Subject: RE: BS: Tall Ship Bounty Abandoned in Storm!
From: MartinRyan
Date: 30 Oct 12 - 01:17 PM

Batten. Not baton.

Quiet! ;>)>

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: Tall Ship Bounty Abandoned in Storm!
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Oct 12 - 01:59 PM

Gee whilikers and Gosh all Jehosophat! Humor not permissible?

Of course batten, dense ones, but tbe image conjured up by 'baton' is interesting.
Picture a chantey leader having the crew baton down the hatches. A whole new chantey could be in order.

Batons up, bullies,
As the wave rises,
Hey!

Batons down, bullies,
As the wave sets,
Whack!
------------------

Subject: RE: BS: Tall Ship Bounty Abandoned in Storm!
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Oct 12 - 03:42 PM

Q

"Sometimes these threads have a light moment amid the tragic."

"Thanks for the lighter moment, " says Charley Noble, examining the weather gauge with his beady eye and taping the compass upon the taffrail.

Subject: RE: BS: Tall Ship Bounty Abandoned in Storm!
From: EBarnacle
Date: 30 Oct 12 - 03:46 PM

There is an old saying that the time to reef is when you first think of it. A corrolary to this is: Don't sail into the teeth of a storm that you know is coming. You can have many jobs but you have only one life. It was a [probably fatal] case of misjudgement.

Subject: RE: BS: Tall Ship Bounty Abandoned in Storm!
From: gnu
Date: 30 Oct 12 - 04:06 PM

Those pics are rough to look at, Charley.

Subject: RE: BS: Tall Ship Bounty Abandoned in Storm!
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 30 Oct 12 - 04:47 PM

If a more secure harbor was the concern, sailing North along the coast could have easily worked. My guess is that, the Bounty being a perennial tourist attraction for the Winter season in St Petersburg, the unfortunate decision to head south was made based at least partially on financial commitments to the Florida venue.

Subject: RE: BS: Tall Ship Bounty Abandoned in Storm!
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Oct 12 - 05:10 PM

gnu-

So true.

Lonesome EJ-

There may have been some pressure from management to be down in St. Petersburg for the special tall ship's event the week after. We'll never know. I'm still trying to puzzle out why the captain decided to try to skirt around the western edge of the storm rather than the eastern edge; that's evidently how the ship sank at its present location, just 90 miles off Cape Hatteras. Skirting west would have been faster but more risky, and if the bilge pumps failed, the generators failed, and the engines failed, the hurricane would have been right on them (and the hurricane doubled its pace as it closed on the shore)...

All so much speculation and there are more qualified sailors on this forum to do such speculation than me.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Tall Ship Bounty Abandoned in Storm!
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 30 Oct 12 - 05:23 PM

Charley, I don't want to cast any aspersions on the seamanship of the captain, or the owners' concern for financial commitments. And I am not a seaman of the caliber of Amos, or Kendall, or many others on this forum. I simply feel that, with a storm on the way that could have delayed Bounty's commitments for a substantial and undetermined period, in addition to the real possibility of sustaining damage while holed up in a harbor in the North, further delaying departure, a decision might well have been reached to make a run for Florida, a decision that ended in tragedy. I am sure more will come out regarding the reasons for the disaster. I doubt the captain would have made such a decision on his own.

Subject: RE: BS: Tall Ship Bounty Abandoned in Storm!
From: Fossil
Date: 30 Oct 12 - 05:47 PM

"Battening down the hatches" was the practice aboard old-time sailing ships when bad weather was expected.

Hatches are large openings in the deck through which cargo and stores are loaded aboard. On wooden ships, the hatch covers were planks, which are not watertight. So the planks were covered with oiled canvas, and to prevent the canvas coming off in the gale, long wooden strips (battens) were placed over it and nailed down.

Of course, once the hatches were battened down like this, you couldn't use the hatchway, which is why this was only done when extreme safety precautions were considered necessary.

Modern steel ships have waterproof steel hatch covers, so battening down is not necessary. I have no idea whether Bounty had large hatches requiring battening or not. Probably not, since I'm sure modern technology would have provided it with waterproof covers anyway. Which may be why, in the aerial photos, the hull still seems to be semi-afloat, if waterlogged.

Subject: RE: BS: Tall Ship Bounty Abandoned in Storm!
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Oct 12 - 08:59 PM

Fossil-

The survivors should have some clue as to where the water was coming that overwhelmed the pumps and the generators. We just have to be patient for a more complete explanation.

With a strong following sea, the Bounty would have been subjected to severe corkscrewing stress which could have opened up her seams, letting water in. Alternatively one of the overboard discharge valves that failed, or a hatch that failed as you suggest, might have done her in.

The Bounty, as I think I've mentioned above, was completely rebuilt below the waterline in 2006-2007, and had undergone more repair work for a month in the same yard in Maine in September of this year. She should have been in good condition, for a 50-year ship.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Tall Ship Bounty Abandoned in Storm!
From: Fossil
Date: 30 Oct 12 - 09:53 PM

Oh I wasn't suggesting that hatch covers were the problem that caused the Bounty to founder: there could be many explanations. I was just trying to explain the term "battening down" for the benefit of non-nautical members of the forum.

I did note that one of the pictures of the vessel taken before the accident showed the wide expanse of stern windows typical of vessels of the era the Bounty replica was emulating. I'm sure they would have had "deadlights" (solid covers) fixed over these windows, but many yachts in severe storms have had deadlghts stove in by the force of the sea. Something similar could have happened if the ship was running before the storm, and once the windows were broken there would be waves from the following sea washing straight through - it wouldn't take long after that for the ship to fill up.

But I really don't know what was the exact cause, though doubtless a serious effort will be made to find out.

The power of the ocean in a storm like this one makes a sobering thought for those of us who do go out on the ocean. In the Sydney - Hobart Race disaster a few years back, modern, well-found racing yachts with experienced crews were rolled by giant waves, masts broken, cabin tops ripped off and even when survivors took to their life rafts, the rafts themselves were ripped apart by the force of the sea. At least this didn't happen with the Bounty and all the crew bar two were rescued, thanks to their survival suits and life rafts - this we must be thankful for.

Subject: RE: BS: Tall Ship Bounty Abandoned in Storm!
From: GUEST,skivee, guesting in
Date: 30 Oct 12 - 11:10 PM

This is such a sad day for the tallship community>

Subject: RE: BS: Tall Ship Bounty Abandoned in Storm!
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 31 Oct 12 - 07:38 AM

In terms of the total destruction caused by the storm, this is minor but it is sad when one of the few remaining period (albeit replica) tall ships is lost, especially with loss of life.

RtS

Subject: RE: BS: Tall Ship Bounty Abandoned in Storm!
From: Charley Noble
Date: 31 Oct 12 - 08:26 AM

Here's a more detailed news summary describing what happened: Click here for update!

There is still a conflict in reports with regard to which side of the hurricane the Bounty's captain was attempting to skirt, west versus east, but all agree she sank 90 miles east of Cape Hatteras, Monday.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Tall Ship Bounty Abandoned in Storm!
From: Charley Noble
Date: 31 Oct 12 - 04:35 PM

Here's a link to the Wooden Boat Forum where there are some more qualified sailing folks (more qualified than me!) discussing the sinking of the Bounty: click here for discussion!

The discussion supports my contention that the captain tried to cut across the track of Sandy, a gamble which turned out disastrous.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Tall Ship Bounty Abandoned in Storm!
From: Fossil
Date: 31 Oct 12 - 06:01 PM

One of the posters on the Wooden Boats forum referenced by Charlie made a telling point when he noted that where the ship foundered, they were in 40 to 50-knot northerly winds blowing directly against the Gulf Stream current. This situation can easily produce steep, breaking waves of up to 40 feet which would have caused the ship to work heavily.

All wooden ships leak to some extent and apparently the Bounty was a particularly wet ship. Other posters with experience in sailing aboard her say that they had to check the water level and run the pumps every quarter of an hour. In a heavy storm like Sandy, it would take one minor mishap, such as a generator shorting out, to inactivate the bilge pumps, after which it was only a matter of time.

But I do agree that criticism of the actions of the captain seems well founded. He took a 40-year old wooden vessel with lots of top-hamper out into a well-forecast hurricane with a small and somewhat inexperienced crew, surely a recipe for disaster.

Someone else on the forum pointed out that even if they were under time pressure to get to Florida, delaying the departure for two days would have allowed them to complete the voyage within their deadline and in comparative safety. A lot more to come on this, I expect!

Subject: RE: BS: Tall Ship Bounty Abandoned in Storm!
From: gnu
Date: 31 Oct 12 - 06:13 PM

"At least this didn't happen with the Bounty and all the crew bar two were rescued, "

There is what we can take solace in. The rest is just misery. Truly sad.

Subject: RE: BS: Tall Ship Bounty Abandoned in Storm!
From: Charley Noble
Date: 31 Oct 12 - 10:59 PM

Sad indeed.

And I found myself getting choked up today when I was explaining to a neighbor what had happened with the Bounty and her crew. Caught me by surprise. I may go back to monitoring eagle cams or political debates.

It probably will take months for a formal decision to be made, and I'm not even sure what kind of board is convened to do that. The captain is all responsible but whether he were negligent in some way would be for the board to determine.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Tall Ship Bounty Abandoned in Storm!
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 01 Nov 12 - 12:01 AM

This summer the Bounty returned home to Nova Scotia as part of the gathering of tall ships. For a few days she was tied to the wharf in Port Hawkesbury. I remember a lady playing a guitar on the dock and I believe that she was the deceased Ms. Christian, the lost crew-member who was a direct descendant of Fletcher Christian, who led the mutiny on the original Bounty.
I was taking some photos and asked another crew-member when they would be leaving as I had hoped to get some pictures of her under sail. He introduced me to the captain and I spent a few minutes talking with him. After the ship left the dock it went through the Canso Canal and into the setting sun over St. George's Bay. Although it was not under sail I got some fantastic photos.
I am saddened that a storm that carried my name caused so much destruction to so many souls! I will always remember walking the deck of The Bounty, speaking to her captain, and the image of a beautiful lady playing a guitar on the dock!

Subject: RE: BS: Tall Ship Bounty Abandoned in Storm!
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Nov 12 - 07:26 AM

Sandy-

Yes, Ms. Christian played the guitar and sang sea songs, and she was a seasoned crew member. Her loss is a sad one.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Tall Ship Bounty Abandoned in Storm!
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Nov 12 - 11:19 AM

Here's a quote from the gCaptain Forum discussion to ponder:

"Sarah, when you take an old wooden boat to sea in a storm the size of Sandy the ship is beat up by the waves and the seams will be stressed and begin to leak. It's a disaster waiting to happen. When you couple that with mechanical failure there is no more waiting, the disaster happens. My heart aches for the harrowing experience the crew suffered and the death of of Claudene Christian. But I don't think that explains the decision to take Bounty to sea and sail her in the direction of a monster hurricane, nor does the crew's willingness to go excuse the death of one sailor and the other 14 having to be rescued in the midst of a perfect storm. For the record, I am a tall ship sailor and I am married to a captain with almost 30 years experience. I have loved Barkentine Gazela since the day I first laid eyes on her in 1985, but I would not give my life for her. My heart is broken over the loss of Bounty and her crew."

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Tall Ship Bounty Abandoned in Storm!
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 01 Nov 12 - 12:37 PM

They shouldn't have any trouble salvaging her, because Bounty is the quicker picker-upper.....

Subject: RE: BS: Tall Ship Bounty Abandoned in Storm!
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 01 Nov 12 - 01:43 PM

Little has been said regarding the courage and amazing skill of the Coast Guard crew who rescued these people. Imagine holding an aircraft steady in hurricane winds with seas rising up to your helicopter, then dropping away nearly forty feet in the next five seconds. All this while guiding and hauling exhausted sailors from rolling and tumbling rafts. It boggles the mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Tall Ship Bounty Abandoned in Storm!
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Nov 12 - 03:56 PM

The Coast Guard deserve our continued admiration.

One of the final messages from the Captain Robin Walbridge to those ashore with regard to his revised sailing plan as of Saturday night:

"I think we are going to be into this for several days, the weather looks like even after the eye (of the hurricane) goes by it (stormy weather) will linger for a couple of days. We are just going to keep trying to go fast and squeeze by the storm and land as fast as we can. I am thinking that we will pass each other sometime Sunday night or Monday morning."

Clearly the captain was then planning to cut across the front of the incoming hurricane, between it and the shore, west of the storm instead of east as previously planned. However, at that point the hurricane picked up speed and the Bounty's fate was sealed.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Tall Ship Bounty Abandoned in Storm!
From: Fossil
Date: 01 Nov 12 - 07:54 PM

Reviewing this thread last night, I took a look at the YouTube video posted by Jack (see above) of the Bounty in a biggish sea some while back. The ship looked so solid and reassuring you would never think it could get into trouble.

But... one or two things worried me a bit: in the video the ship was said to be "hove to" in the open Atlantic Ocean waiting for a wind-shift to continue its voyage. Heaving-to is a perfectly respectable thing to do in this situation: a small foresail is rigged so as to push the boat's head away downwind, while the rudder is lashed over so as to turn into the wind. The resulting balance keeps the ship lying quietly while making little headway without it requiring a lot of attention from the crew. This was being done and the Bounty was duly sitting at a slight angle to the wind and sea, rolling a bit - quite a lot at times, possibly more than I would have been comfortable with.

But heaving to in large, very steep seas has its downside, which is that an exceptionally large or steep wave could either roll the ship over, or break over the decks, swamping it. They may have tried this during Sandy and got caught out.

Another thing that worried me was that the video was taken by a crewman wearing a head camera who had obviously come up on deck to make the video - he did nothing else. And - this is the point - he was *entirely alone* on deck: there was no-one watching the helm or keeping a lookout, which to my mind there should have been.

Admittedly, keeping crew below in bad weather where they will be safer than on deck, can be a useful strategy. But most ships would have at least one designated watchperson on deck, to look out for exceptional waves or other ships in the vicinity. They would be suited and booted, wearing flotation gear and tied on with lifelines, but they would be there.

To my mind this video raises a few additional questions of seamanship standards on the Bounty. Take a look and see what you think.

Subject: RE: BS: Tall Ship Bounty Abandoned in Storm!
From: gnu
Date: 01 Nov 12 - 08:05 PM

Interesting comments, Fossil.

Subject: RE: BS: Tall Ship Bounty Abandoned in Storm!
From: maeve
Date: 01 Nov 12 - 08:18 PM

Fossil: "Another thing that worried me was that the video was taken by a crewman wearing a head camera who had obviously come up on deck to make the video - he did nothing else. And - this is the point - he was *entirely alone* on deck: there was no-one watching the helm or keeping a lookout, which to my mind there should have been."

Hmmm...Might want to take another look at the video Jack linked. At 2:08 I see two other crewmen on deck...near the foremast.

Subject: RE: BS: Tall Ship Bounty Abandoned in Storm!
From: Joe_F
Date: 01 Nov 12 - 08:36 PM

Judgment, misjudgment, he's dead. Rest in peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Tall Ship Bounty Abandoned in Storm!
From: Fossil
Date: 01 Nov 12 - 08:39 PM

I stand corrected - there are two other crewmen visible at about 2'30" - they are standing in the hatchway, wearing T-shirts and no safety gear at all, and are talking to each other, obviously not on watch nor keeping a lookout. They aren't visible in subsequent footage. But again, there are obvious breaks in the filming, so there is no real idea of how long a time period this video actually covers.

Most yachties who sail the sea routes are well aware that a big container ship doing 20 knots or so can come up over the horizon and run you down in about 10 minutes. Which is why you try to keep a continuous lookout.

A big sailing vessel like the Bounty would have radar reflectors, possibly its own radar set and will give a big signature on anyone else's radar, but you shouldn't be trusting the other fellow to be looking out for you... Yachts are regularly lost in the sea routes around Europe like this. Big ships are supposed to have watchkeepers on duty and mostly they do, but mistakes do get made every now and then.