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BS: A FEMA-less America...
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Subject: BS: A FEMA-less America... From: Bobert Date: 31 Oct 12 - 07:12 PM Mitt Romney thinks FEMA should be dismantled... He says that states and private companies should handle these responsibilities... My feeling is that states don't have the resources to put together the level of resources to handle a Hurricane Sandy and that it is more efficient and less costly for the nation to have FEMA to handle these kinds of events... I'd love to hear a response from any Romney supporters... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: A FEMA-less America... From: Bill D Date: 31 Oct 12 - 07:37 PM It all flows from loosely thought out slogans about "small government" and "states rights". They have a 'feeling' about some concept that is easy to say, whether it has any current relevance or not. Ask any of 25 governors who have had to deal with big natural disasters in the last 25 years, and you will hear the real info on what is needed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: A FEMA-less America... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 31 Oct 12 - 07:43 PM I'd love to hear a response from any Romney supporters... Don't hold your breath! |
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Subject: RE: BS: A FEMA-less America... From: Joe Offer Date: 31 Oct 12 - 08:26 PM I did clearances for FEMA and Small Business Administration disaster workers - they needed clearances because they were responsible for disbursement of large sums of federal money. They were often retired people, with backgrounds in areas like construction and finance that would be helpful to victims of disasters. Most were incredibly dedicated and hard-working, but they also enjoyed the travel and knew how to have fun on their time off. I have nothing but respect for them. Many have amazing expertise, far more than one would expect for what they're paid. The FEMA managers were more of a political sort. Most were pretty good, but sometimes the current administration would pepper upper FEMA management with political hacks who had no concern for the people they were serving. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: A FEMA-less America... From: Bobert Date: 31 Oct 12 - 08:31 PM "You're doing a great job, Brownie"... Yup, Joe... We know of what you speak... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: A FEMA-less America... From: Don Firth Date: 31 Oct 12 - 08:53 PM In the state where I live, even though we have some pretty good windstorms from time to time, we don't really have to worry all that much about storms of the magnitude of Katrina or Jenny. But this IS a seismically active area. The North American tectonic plate is slowly trying to mosey west, and just off the coast of Washington and Oregon is the Juan de Fuca plate, which is trying to slide under the North American plate and go east. This has been going on for thousands—hundreds of thousands—of years, and this is what raised the Cascade mountain range. Some of the peaks in the range are volcanoes. Mount Lassen in California, and Mounts Baker, Rainier, Adams, and St. Helens in Washington. Then there's Mt. Hood in Oregon, and, of course, Crater Lake. The arrangement—and movements—of the these plates are a mirror image of the situation that caused the Fukushima quake in Japan. Other than St. Helens throwing a little party back in 1980 and the recent Nisqually quake in 2001 when I thought the whole apartment building I live in was going to wind up down the back of my neck, it's been relatively quiet around here. But—the geologists tell us that the last major quake on the Juan de Fuca subduction zone was about 300 years ago, and it left a lot of geological evidence of the damage it, and the subsequent tsunami caused. Also, we are told that if Mount Rainier, a dormant volcano, but with currently active steam vents ever decides to decides to whoop it up, metropolitan areas like Seattle, Tacoma, and Olympia will be in deep do-do!! And the geologists tell us that we are due for another Big One any time now. Now, the State of Washington was able to handle the damage, downed trees, power outages, broken plate-glass windows and such from the Thanksgiving Day storm (winds just a few miles per hour short of an official hurricane) a couple of decades ago, but a major earthquake or volcanic eruption—or both? Somebody's gonna have to be there with a few band-aids or it's going to be kinda nasty around here. . . . Romney wants to junk FEMA? Even if he could walk on water, that's reason enough not to elect him! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: A FEMA-less America... From: Rapparee Date: 31 Oct 12 - 08:58 PM No single state has the resources to deal with a disaster of Sandy or Katrina magnitude. Whenever there has been a major disaster -- the Chicago Fire of 1871, the Cloquet Fire of 1918, the Johnstown Flood, the 1906 San Francisco earthquake, the Galveston hurricane, to name but a few -- Americans have banded together to send help. This was intended to provide immediate help, not to help with rebuilding costs but to get food, shelter and clothing to those in need as quickly as possible. This outpouring of private assistance in no way mitigates the need for assistance from the federal government. To expect private business to supply such aid free for nothin' is wishful thinking -- yes, many businesses will do so, but don't count on it. And to profiteer off a disaster is, well, disgusting is too lame of a word. |
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Subject: RE: BS: A FEMA-less America... From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 31 Oct 12 - 09:06 PM You guys forget that when they repeatedly asked R yesterday if he wanted to dismantle FEMA ("14 times," I think CNN said), he just smiled and said nothing. Nothing. Not even, "This isn't the time to talk about it." Just nothing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: A FEMA-less America... From: Don Firth Date: 31 Oct 12 - 09:37 PM If now, with Jenny still rattling the windows and blowing trees down and taking power lines with them, isn't the time to talk about it, then when in the hell IS!?? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: A FEMA-less America... From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 31 Oct 12 - 09:41 PM I've never heard of Jenny. Obama's covering up again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: A FEMA-less America... From: Don Firth Date: 31 Oct 12 - 09:57 PM 'Scuse me. That should be "Sandy." I was thinking of an actress named Jenny who plays a girl named Sandy on a British television sitcom. Typing too fast. Don Firth P. S. Actually, THAT Jenny can rattle my windows any time she'd like to. In the red sweater. CLICKY. |
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Subject: RE: BS: A FEMA-less America... From: Joe Offer Date: 31 Oct 12 - 10:23 PM Seems to me it just makes sense to have a mobile cadre of people who know exactly what to do in a disaster. Yes, it can be handled on the state or local level - but a nationwide cadre gives people with real expertise. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: A FEMA-less America... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 01 Nov 12 - 06:32 AM It seems I was right advising people not to hold their breath... |
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Subject: RE: BS: A FEMA-less America... From: Henry Krinkle Date: 01 Nov 12 - 06:43 AM You like them mom-like and frumpy, don't you, Don? =(:-( )) |
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Subject: RE: BS: A FEMA-less America... From: GUEST,sciencegeek Date: 01 Nov 12 - 11:18 AM I have no doubts that Mitt would like to replace FEMA with private contractors like Halliburton et al.... of course, FEMA still needs the right President to direct it properly. |
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Subject: RE: BS: A FEMA-less America... From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 01 Nov 12 - 11:24 AM CNN just asked its viewers whether FEMA should be abolished, and the knee-jerk right-wing responders (the only ones to say yes) gave the usual vague inapplicable answers: "Yes, because the Federal government should stay out of our lives as much as possible." "Yes, because the states and local contractors know what's best for their people - not some government bureaucrats." |
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Subject: RE: BS: A FEMA-less America... From: Bill D Date: 01 Nov 12 - 11:30 AM Ahh.. right! THOSE slogans! |
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Subject: RE: BS: A FEMA-less America... From: GUEST,sciencegeek Date: 01 Nov 12 - 11:42 AM the feds should stay out our lives... unless it's some BS agenda that a sane & rational person doesn't want... and then there "needs" to be a federal law to force it down our throats. there is no federal law compelling someone to use birth control or have an abortion... but we "need" a law to prevent someone else from exercising their personal freedom. my taxes went to "supporting" the invasion of Iraq... against my beliefs and common sense... that's OK... but heaven forbid my tax dollars go to support women's access to medical advise or procedures that I strongly support. anyone else old enough to remember Zero Population Growth? |
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Subject: RE: BS: A FEMA-less America... From: Don Firth Date: 01 Nov 12 - 03:35 PM "Mom-like and frumpy?" Not hardly. If you've ever seen the television show, she's smart as a whip and cuter than a bug's ear! How long has it been since you've had an eye examination? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: A FEMA-less America... From: Penny S. Date: 01 Nov 12 - 04:09 PM It's a very small example, but the county where I live, true blue Tory, has tended to run on a shoestring and cut things to the bone - trying to get a child a special needs statement before its due for a pension is not easy. Some time back, when Margaret Thatcher had her hands on the national pursestrings, we had a succession of problems. March 1987, capsizing of Cross Channel ferry. Considerable expense borne by county council. October 1987, massive wind event with windthrow of trees. Considerable expense borne by county council. January 1988, heavy snowfall (for areas which don't often get it), roads closed, power cuts, rural areas without supplies. County council appealed to government for help. "You should have had a contingency fund," says Mrs T, who shares Romney's attitudes to national supports for disaster relief, totally ignoring that the county had already used it, twice. You need some overall fund and administration to deal with multiple contingencies and spread the load, as insurance companies do. It's not impossible for an area to get more than one disaster in a short period. Mississippi valley, floods, earthquake, heavy snowfall. For instance. Even though you're dealing with larger areas than us, you tend to get larger natural problems. Getting rid of FEMA would be daft. Penny |
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Subject: RE: BS: A FEMA-less America... From: GUEST,999 Date: 01 Nov 12 - 05:25 PM A re-designation of leadership for FEMA would be wise. The organization itself is over-funded and much too close to DHS, imo. FEMA seems not to do one helluva lot of anything. Bang for the buck? Last I looked the people on the front lines were folks who would have been there anyway. Cops, firefighters, medical responders, SAR. Regardless how many times towns or cities practice Emergency Plans for disasters (I've been in on three different planning sessions at various times and in different capacities over a time span of 20 years), the first 4-8 hours are complete and total chaos with a rapid diminishment of chaos after that time. Define exactly what FEMA does. List it. Ye,s FEMA has lots of cash, but exactly who composes the FEMA membership, what are the upper echelon qualifications for the job, and exactly what did they do during this particular incident? |
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Subject: RE: BS: A FEMA-less America... From: Rapparee Date: 01 Nov 12 - 05:36 PM Having been on the same sort of disaster planning committees, 999, and having served in a couple of disasters (floods), I quite agree. In the first hours it is the local people and the local responders who will count the most. Here in the States it would take hours for the Governor to activate even a local National Guard unit, much less a state-wide response...assuming that the Governor isn't in a place that's also involved (e.g., earthquake, blizzard). FEMA might be there 24 hours afterwards -- if the disaster isn't too widespread and if the Feds can realize the magnitude of the problem in that time and if the Governor has declared the area in a state of emergency and if.... I am in no way saying that FEMA should not exist. I am simply stating the facts: the local first responders and local citizens will be the first to take on a disaster. And three times three cheers for them! |
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Subject: RE: BS: A FEMA-less America... From: GUEST,999 Date: 01 Nov 12 - 05:46 PM One more poke at the cat before I'm shot at: When Michael Brown of Katrina renown was lauded for the wonderful job he did by then-president George W Bush, the fact is that 50 SAR specialists from British Columbia were IN New Orleans before Mr Brown was aware a problem existed. Are FEMA leaders political appointments? I do not give a rat's ass who has a degree in fire management. When I was on the sharp end I wanted a scene commander who 1) knew and understood the situation 2) knew the capabilities of the people under his/her command 3) knew that civilians were priority one, and we were priority one just after the civilians What did FEMA do in this 'disaster'? |
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Subject: RE: BS: A FEMA-less America... From: GUEST,999 Date: 01 Nov 12 - 05:57 PM Rap, you know the adage: amateurs talk tactics and professionals talk logistics. Haven't been in touch for a while, but I hope you both are doing well. PS Message (or email) your address. Have a CD to send you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: A FEMA-less America... From: GUEST,sciencegeek Date: 02 Nov 12 - 02:06 PM FEMA is a bureaucracy and one excellent thing that has happened under Obama is that the websites of federal agencies have gotten a hell of a lot better about making info available to the public. much less of the mysterious black boxes that tax $ goes in but no clue where or how it is used. but I know that here in western NY that has had a number of damaging flood events, FEMA is providing funds to local towns & counties to replace money spent on immediate repairs to roads, etc. - the money has to applied for & work documented... but it's money that is more than welcome for small communities that are cash poor or already taxes to the hilt. FEMA can't be a first responder - not without a magic wand... anymore than insurance adjusters can... but they can provide assistance on a much larger scale than a local agency or not for profit organization. though again, this depends upon the leadership starting at the top. and don't forget that the mapping done to identify flood prone areas across the country was done through FEMA... or a lot of the training given to first responders has been backed or funded through FEMA. |
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Subject: RE: BS: A FEMA-less America... From: GUEST,999 Date: 02 Nov 12 - 03:56 PM I'll agree with that sciencegeek. I guess part of my mindset with FEMA was their deplorable handling of Katrina. Live and learn. |
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Subject: RE: BS: A FEMA-less America... From: Jeri Date: 02 Nov 12 - 04:32 PM I was involved for a while when I was in the AF, stationed in Indiana. Went to a couple local meeting with local representatives first responders and hospitals. Not very high in the hierarchy, but somewhat clued in. We had exercises on the base, but also large-scale joint exercises that included several local hospitals, fire departments, police forces, press, and others I'm probably forgetting. We planned extensively, but... You know that saying that "No plan survives first contact with the enemy/reality"? Plans aren't supposed to. Plans exist so people have some idea what to do next. They make it possible to improvise. They main keys to that working are communication and trust. You can be the most bureaucratic bureaucrat in the world, but if people you supervise tell you something and you listen and understand and trust them, you can still succeed. FEMA, the organization, ought to be facilitators/coordinators, and that's all. Spend most of the money on training and equipping the people who do the job on scene. |
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Subject: RE: BS: A FEMA-less America... From: Bobert Date: 02 Nov 12 - 04:50 PM A major mistake was made when FEMA was made a agency within the DHS... That was wrong because it adds an extra layer of people between the president, who sometimes has to act quickly, and FEMA... It should reorganized as a separate agency that reports directly to the president... Secondly, FEMA isn't like an army of first responders... It is there to maintain contracts with all the various vendors so that when something does hit, it has folks within private companies that perform... And, yes, it is kinda like a big insurance company that pays out large claims to state and local governments for fixing stuff and providing temporary shelter, food and water to victims of disasters... Katrina was badly bungled because folks really were in positions that were clueless... Brownie was clueless... Actually, Bush was clueless and his people had to force him to fly over New Orleans just so that Bush would believe it actually happened... Things are much different now since Katrina evidenced by the quick response to a much larger disaster... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: A FEMA-less America... From: gnu Date: 02 Nov 12 - 04:52 PM "FEMA can't be a first responder - not without a magic wand..." Ummmm... 9 talked about the arrival of aid from BC, Canada... first on the scene from "away". The Canadian Navy also arrived and offloaded a shitload of MRE's which they were told to RELOAD because they might contain Mad Cow beef. FEMA? What does that stand for... Fuck Em All? But, that is thread drift. Pay no attention to the peanut gallery. |
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Subject: RE: BS: A FEMA-less America... From: Bettynh Date: 02 Nov 12 - 04:56 PM Stewart Brand (of Whole Earth Catalog fame) had some http://www.worldchanging.com/archives/004327.html after the California earthquake of 1989. They don't all apply to flooding or wind events but he lists these lessons learned: What Rescuers Learned - Right after an earthquake, nobody?s in charge. You self-start, or nothing happens. - Collect tools! - If you can smell gas, turn it off. - After an earthquake, further building collapse is not the main danger. Fire is. - When you see a fire starting, do ANYTHING to stop it, right now. - In any collapsed building, assume there are people trapped alive. Locate them, let them know everything will be done to get them out. - Searching a building, call out, "Anybody in here? Anybody need help? Shout or bang on something if you can hear me." - Give people who are trapped all the information you've got, and enlist their help. Treat them not as helpless victims but as an exceptionally motivated part of the rescue team. - Join a team or start a team. Divide up the tasks. Encourage leadership to emerge. - Most action in a disaster is imitative. Most effective leadership is by example. - Bystanders make the convenient assumption that everything is being taken care of by the people already helping. That's seldom accurate. - If you want to help, ask! If you want to be helped, ask! - Volunteers are always uncertain whether they're doing the right thing. They need encouragement - from professionals, from other volunteers, from passers-by. He also suggested strongly that first responders should see "civilians" as members of the team and assume a leadership, but not a substitute role. "Everything's ok, the police are here" doesn't work in a widespread true emergency. |
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Subject: RE: BS: A FEMA-less America... From: Bettynh Date: 02 Nov 12 - 04:58 PM Ack, I usually check blikkies. That was supposed to be interesting observations |
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Subject: RE: BS: A FEMA-less America... From: Don Firth Date: 02 Nov 12 - 06:05 PM In a post on Oct. 31st, I mentioned the Nisqually quake that occurred in the Pacific Northwest in 2001. It measured 6.8 on the Richter Scale and lasted for forty-five seconds. I was sitting at my desk, probably on Mudcat at the time it occurred (10:54 PST), and the four story 100 year-old frame and brick apartment building I live in started doing quite a little nervous-making jig. A few seconds later, it began to feel like the building was shaking itself like wet dog!! About ten seconds into the quake, all the lights went out. I'm in a wheelchair, and when it became obvious that this was going to last a bit (in circumstances like that, 45 seconds is one helluva lot longer than one would think!), I thought about getting out of the building. Then it occurred to me that I could find myself under a rain of bricks, so I wheeled into the doorway of our apartment—a doorway with it's surrounding frame being a fairly strong structure—and stayed there, hanging onto the door frame, until the rumbling and shaking slowly abated. As I sat there assessing the situation, I heard two of my neighbors, Simon, and a new tenant whom I had not met before, coming downstairs. They planned on checking the building for structural damage, but Simon knew I would be home probably plugging away on the computer, so the first thing he wanted to do was make sure I was all right! Bless you, Simon! Much appreciated! About a hour later, the lights came back on (Seattle City Light got onto it right away). And other than a few cracks in the brickwork, which we've since had fixed, the old building had ridden out another one. Don Firth P. S. In any natural disaster, say, in an earthquake, since the firehouse may have collapsed on the trucks and aid cars, and the police may be trying to dig themselves out from under a pile of lumber and bricks, you can figure that you're going to be on your own for a bit. Do what needs to be done to prevent further damage—and check on you neighbors! |
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Subject: RE: BS: A FEMA-less America... From: gnu Date: 02 Nov 12 - 06:29 PM Don... that musta been frightening for you! |
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Subject: RE: BS: A FEMA-less America... From: Don Firth Date: 03 Nov 12 - 04:18 PM It's amazing how calm(ish) and clear-headed a person can be in a situation like that. I think it's actually a survival mechanism. The shaking doesn't start until a bit later. Another thing to consider when a natural (or unnatural) disaster occurs: In 1980 I was working as a telephone operator ("One ringy-dingy. Two ringy-dingies. . . ."). Nice working conditions, good pay, gawdawful lousy job, but that's another story. Anyhoo, I went to work as usual on Sunday, May 18, 1980 and plugged into the switchboard console at 8:30 a.m. At 8:32 and 17 seconds, Mount Saint Helens erupted. ka-BOOM!!! The mountain had been rumbling and venting steam for some weeks. It was obvious that something was afoot, and geologists and volcanologists were keeping a sharp eye on the activity, so it wasn't totally without warning. In fact, people who lived near Mount St. Helens (such as Harry Truman—no, not that Harry Truman—who ran a lodge at Spirit Lake on the mountain) were warned that it might be a good idea to vacate the area. Anyway, by a quarter to nine that Sunday morning, the telephone lines were completely jammed. Whether from one's home phone (there were exceedingly few cell phones around yet) or from the phone company's switchboards, whenever you dialed a number, the only response you got was a busy circuits signal. Sounds like a regular busy signal, but faster. This indicates that the entire system is jammed up. Nothing can get through because everybody and his brother's pet chicken is ON THE PHONE, calling somebody! Now—some of these were undoubtedly emergency calls. But the vast majority of them were people who were not in any danger calling other people who were also not in any danger to ask, "How is it out your way, Aunt Martha?" The result was that genuine emergency calls could not get through!! People would dial an operator because they kept getting the busy circuits signal. But the operators were equally powerless. So—whenever something like this happens, stay off the telephone unless you're sure that it's absolutely necessary, and be aware that, even then, you might not—will probably not—be able to get through. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: A FEMA-less America... From: ChanteyLass Date: 03 Nov 12 - 09:16 PM Good advice, Don, and I'm glad that you acted wisely and were okay. |
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Subject: RE: BS: A FEMA-less America... From: gnu Date: 03 Nov 12 - 10:00 PM Ditto, CL. |
