BS: Cat Issue Advice Needed...

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Issue Advice Needed...
From: Raptor
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 11:37 AM

Great how are you guys?

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Issue Advice Needed...
From: Charmion
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 10:29 AM

Until very recently, a surprising number of Canadians thought of cats essentially as disposable animals -- useful in a limited way to people with rodent problems, but otherwise not valued. A good mouser would be tolerated, but just barely. Organized cat fancy is quite a modern phenomenon, and until very recently focussed on exotic types, Siameses and the like, rather than the local rat-bashers.

I think many of our attitudes toward the much-loved moggies in our lives are affected by those centuries of disdain. We assume, first of all, that cats are not trainable. Next, we think of cats as capable enough to take care of themselves to the extent that we just let them out and assume they will be okay.

It isn't just the songbirds and shy woodland creatures who deserve protection -- the cats do, too!

It's nice to see you back on the board, Raptor. How's it goin', eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Issue Advice Needed...
From: Elmore
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 10:24 AM

Raptor: I totally agree. Used to let the cats out when I was young and stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Issue Advice Needed...
From: Raptor
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 09:59 AM

As a wild bird lover you can list me as one of the keep the cats indoors people.
Those who let unspayed or unnutered cats outdoors are responsible for thousands of ferel cat deaths each year.
And they claim to be cat lovers. It makes me Sick.

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Issue Advice Needed...
From: GUEST,Charmion's brother Andrew
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 06:51 PM

Can't say I do, Charmion. I am surprised, given how lore easily spread in the place.

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Issue Advice Needed...
From: Charmion
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 03:23 PM

Hi, Andrew -- Remember when one of the Scharf girls lost a toe to a snapper? That would have been about 1962 ... She was swimming in the quarry, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Issue Advice Needed...
From: Elmore
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 02:13 PM

Thread drift continued. I was brought up by my great-grandmother in a working class city. I did pretty much what I wanted. On Friday nights we used to go to dances at the Y.M.C.A. We walked home, way across town at 11 p.m. We were about 12 years old. These days you would want an ak-47 to get across town. Glad we moved.

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Issue Advice Needed...
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 12:02 PM

Thread drift, but we did the most hair-raising and highly dangerous things as children. Our parents never knew, and never asked. We all survived, had enjoyed enormous freedom and learned how to handle dodgy situations. Sigh, how times have changed.

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Issue Advice Needed...
From: GUEST,Charmion's brother Andrew
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 11:53 AM

To compound the safety challenges in Manotick, there was an open, unfenced flooded quarry about 100 metres from our house, close enough that a snapping turtle once tried to lay her clutch of eggs in our front yard. Surprisingly, none of our number of free-range kids managed to drown in the quarry.

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Issue Advice Needed...
From: gnu
Date: 10 Dec 12 - 02:04 PM

Nice post, Charmion.

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Issue Advice Needed...
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Dec 12 - 01:18 PM

nicely said, Charmion.

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Issue Advice Needed...
From: Elmore
Date: 10 Dec 12 - 10:13 AM

Eliza: I feel that we were luckier than kids are today for a number of reasons. Charmion: Our last outdoor cat, Murray, was a really great cat, but used to come home looking like something the cat dragged in (sorry} due to fights, love matches etc. Never again.

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Issue Advice Needed...
From: Charmion
Date: 10 Dec 12 - 09:21 AM

I grew up in a village on the Rideau River south of Ottawa, Ontario. Many people remember the 1950s and early '60s as an idyllic time of free-range kids romping in the fields and forests with their friends and the family dog, and I do remember plenty of that in long-ago Manotick. But I also remember plenty of routine hazards, especially the river itself, and Highway 16, which ran through the village, down Main Street past our house, carrying a high volume of commuter traffic and heavy trucks between Ottawa and Prescott, where you took the bridge over the St. Lawrence River to the United States.

Our neighbours the MacEvoys always had a dog, and the dog's name was Happy. Over the 13 years our family lived in the village, the MacEvoys went through about five dogs named Happy. By the time I was a fully sentient being, say circa 1959, Mrs MacEvoy was in the habit of tying the least controllable and most vulnerable members of the family -- Happy the dog and whoever was the youngest kid at the time -- to the tree in front of the house. It never seemed to occur to Mr MacEvoy to build a fence around the yard -- our Dad's solution -- but different strokes do for different folks.

We were cat people (devoted, doting cat people at that), and my parents never managed to keep a cat alive for more than five years until the highway was diverted to bypass the village.

Free-range kids find their own fun, of course. In Manotick, for some reason, that meant a lot of sliding, in summer down the steep banks of the Rideau into the excitingly frothy waters below the dam that powered Watson's grist mill, and in winter just about anywhere a kid with a toboggan could find a slope. The enormous snowbanks thrown up by the highway plows were particularly appealing, and thus one small boy, the younger brother of a classmate, met his doom when he made the tactical error of sliding down the road side of the snowbank, right into the path of a homeward-bound commuter.

I don't remember parents being at all casual or accepting of such incidents. In fact, it was about the time Tommy Bracken died that the wee pupils of Manotick Public School first made the acquaintance of Elmer the Safety Elephant. Our fascination with the aforementioned frothy waters of the Rideau River brought the Canadian Red Cross Society into our lives, along with its irritating patron saint of swimming lessons, one Walter Safety. Grudgingly, we learned never to swim alone (who did that?) or to dive headfirst into unknown waters.

Humans and cats learn caution the hard way, through trial and error. Humans are large and reasonably intelligent, and they have the Highway Traffic Act and the Criminal Code on their side; cats not so much. Cats are small and vulnerable, and the first time they encounter a moving car or an interested predator can easily be the last time.

Old Bill is our last outdoor cat. He came to us off the street, having survived an entire winter as a stray, and goes frantic when denied exeat. Rosie, the new cat, is a purebred Siamese who has never felt natural ground under her paws -- and that's just as well. She's not smart enough to avoid the hazards, as Bill obviously is, and she would be both terrified and in grave danger the whole time. And any cat who comes into our lives in future will likewise become an indoor cat if s/he isn't already.

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Issue Advice Needed...
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 10 Dec 12 - 08:11 AM

We were lucky in those days weren't we Elmore?

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Issue Advice Needed...
From: Elmore
Date: 09 Dec 12 - 08:39 PM

Eliza: When I was a kid we used to run wild too. These days we have to keep a close watch on our pets and our kids. Sad in a way, but there's no help for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Issue Advice Needed...
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 09 Dec 12 - 01:22 PM

I agree Richard, there are some superb, large raptors in Britain, but not anywhere near us in Norfolk!

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Issue Advice Needed...
From: Charmion
Date: 09 Dec 12 - 10:12 AM

Greg Stephens has it right, as I realize anew every time I leap up to provide porter services to the felines. A loud baritone meow from any part of the house brings me on trot for fear that Old Bill will find something fragile to piss on if I don't boost him ontothe bed or the sofa while he's still focussed on the notion of a snooze. How did it come to this?

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Issue Advice Needed...
From: greg stephens
Date: 09 Dec 12 - 09:40 AM

Bobert: you want an animal in your house that lives the way you want it to? Get a dog.You want to run an establishment for the benefit of an animal? Get a cat. We have a cat. We do what we are told.

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Issue Advice Needed...
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Dec 12 - 09:03 AM

British birds of prey (raptors) - some quite large and readily capable of taking a small cat or a toy dog.

http://raptortrust.org.uk/what-is-a-raptor/british-raptors/

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Issue Advice Needed...
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 09 Dec 12 - 05:02 AM

Heavens, gnu, how awful. I can quite see why those people in USA are a bit wary of letting any pets out. We have small predators such as kestrels and sparrowhawks, but they only take little birds. Golden eagles up in Scotland are quite rare and never seen here in Norfolk.
Elmore, I never had children, but as a child I did 'run wild', but life then was much safer, and we children were never at home in daylight hours. (Perhaps that's why I value freedom so much!) My three Siamese are cuddled up in their basket in the kitchen at this moment, and the counter tops are covered in mud, so they've obviously been out during the night. I see their mate Alfie from next door has been in, as he likes to puke on the floor after eating their leftovers. (He has a gippy tummy) I don't mind any of this, I'm fairly relaxed and just clean it up in a jiffy.

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Issue Advice Needed...
From: gnu
Date: 08 Dec 12 - 06:18 PM

"And perhaps in America, there are wild beasts out there that might enjoy a cat sandwich!"

You got birds of prey?

I inspected a NEW (2 months) roof on a large building in Port-aux-Basques, NF. At least thirty cat heads and guess how many paws on the roof? Few small dog heads and paws. Newfies ain't into yappers so much, eh b'y? Cats do a much better job of controlling rats and squirrels and such. Not the indoor cats, mind you.

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Issue Advice Needed...
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Dec 12 - 06:09 PM

It is generally a mistake to treat pet animals as human children - although I can see some merit in the converse.

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Issue Advice Needed...
From: Elmore
Date: 08 Dec 12 - 06:04 PM

Eliza

Eliza: would you let your children run wild simply because you enjoy running wild? Respectfully, Elmore.

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Issue Advice Needed...
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 08 Dec 12 - 01:26 PM

Well, I may have an accident in my little Fiesta car, I may be attacked in the street, I may fall under a bus, but I still like to go out and would go bonkers if shut in constantly. And I'm only a human!

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Issue Advice Needed...
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 08 Dec 12 - 11:38 AM

He may keep on doing this because he does get a reaction. I think I would try the not making an issue and installing a cat door or flap. Out of interest does he ever have contact with the other cats at any time, do they get along or just tolerate each other?

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Issue Advice Needed...
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 Dec 12 - 11:29 AM

We've had maybe 20 cats over the last 20-something years. Half that time was in a top-floor flat in central Edinburgh and the later half was in a village out of town with the cats free to come and go through a catflap.

We only lost cats from the city flat. Cats are very good at sneaking out any time a door or window is open, and a cat that doesn't know the neighbourhood is much less likely to find its way back home.

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Issue Advice Needed...
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Dec 12 - 11:27 AM

Eliza, when we lived on a mini-ranch (25 acres in Wyoming) I did let our cats go out at will. There was always a risk of eagles hunting them. We had a darling cairn terrier who just disappeared. One cat went missing for over a week, came home in the middle of the night. he was emaciated and weak, obviosly having been locked in somewhere. He left after we went to sleep. I assume he went to die alone. We found him again. We later found out he'd accidently been shut up in a neighbour's qounset hut with no way out until they happened to open it and saw him run out. So, yes, there are birds of prey and other dangers out of town, too.

Getting back to the original posting, see DRS FOSTER & SMITH Cat Training Aids.

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Issue Advice Needed...
From: Charmion
Date: 08 Dec 12 - 09:46 AM

Is the carpet a permanent fixture?

We have hardwood floors. Rugs go in places where softness and warmth are desired, such as the sitting room in front of the sofa, not in high-traffic areas such as doorways.

The cats do exercise their claws on the rugs, but not enough to do them any harm. (They are sturdy Afghan knotted rugs.) Furniture is another story -- our green leather Lazy Boy settee was severely shredded within its first year.

Our problem is preventing the old tomcat from pissing on bookcases when we don't move fast enough to get the back door open for him. In our next house, the library will have a door that shuts.

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Issue Advice Needed...
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Dec 12 - 07:01 AM

Medium-voltage expanded metal grid - turned on when you go to bed/out. Not enough to be dangerous but a lively tingle...

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Issue Advice Needed...
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 08 Dec 12 - 04:19 AM

Well, I've lived in the countryside for over forty years now, so our cats aren't at risk from traffic. The only 'wild animal' predator type is the fox, and I've seen dozens, but none has ever attacked my cats. However, it's different in the city, I know. And perhaps in America, there are wild beasts out there that might enjoy a cat sandwich!

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Issue Advice Needed...
From: Elmore
Date: 08 Dec 12 - 01:33 AM

We're moving pretty soon to a house with a screened in porch. I expect the cats will enjoy that. Not the moving, the porch. Sorry to have committed thread drift.

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Issue Advice Needed...
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Dec 12 - 11:44 PM

Drs Foster and Smith have toenail caps one can put over their cat's claws. It saves the furniture and they come pretty colours, almost like getting one's nails done at the salon, though it would have to be a patient cat to get them on.

Elmore, I lost one too many furpersons when they were let out. Since then, 1983, all of our cats have lived happy, long and safe lives being kept inside. The only way they go out is in their chicken coop...a structure out my office window in which they have a balcony, ar amp, and plenty of dirt for scratching, etc. They love it!

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Issue Advice Needed...
From: Elmore
Date: 07 Dec 12 - 04:02 PM

Okay, after hearing strong disapproval out there, I've reconsidered my position on the declawing issue. Please don't report me to the ASPCA, or my cat Raven who loves me. I disagree that letting cats outdoors is a necessity, and feel that sending them out to be hit by a car or devoured by a wild beast is the ultimate cruelty.

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Issue Advice Needed...
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 07 Dec 12 - 12:13 PM

One can and should trim claws, especially if the cat is old and not very active; if you don't, the claws become curled over, very thick and cause problems walking. I trim just a smidgeon off our cats' claws (the very sharp bit) It's quite true that it's illegal here in UK to de-claw a cat, rightly so. I feel that if one has animals (of any kind) one has to learn about their needs and habits and adapt to them. Dogs are more trainable, but cats are not. I hate for instance to see dogs shut in a cage for most of the day, barking their heads off. They need to go out for a long walk. Cats need to go out to explore, mark their territory and sniff about. Any restriction on these needs is unkind.

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Issue Advice Needed...
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Dec 12 - 11:26 AM

I had some friends whose vet would periodically trim their cats' claws so that scratches were less severe. This is probably no more serious than our cutting our nails. But I agree that declawing is a no-no.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Issue Advice Needed...
From: Becca72
Date: 07 Dec 12 - 11:07 AM

Elmore - your vet is wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Issue Advice Needed...
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Dec 12 - 10:58 AM

Declawing is appallingly brutal (it's cutting the cat's toes off) and illegal in almost every country but the US. A British vet would get struck off for doing it.

Cayenne pepper doesn't work. I've tried it. You just get chili pawprints all over the house.

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Issue Advice Needed...
From: Elmore
Date: 07 Dec 12 - 10:21 AM

We have our cats declawed and keep them inside. Vet says declawing is not cruel. They still scratch the furniture, but to no avail.

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Issue Advice Needed...
From: GUEST,Don Wise
Date: 07 Dec 12 - 10:18 AM

My cat also displays a passion for flexing his claws on the carpet. However, doing this behind the entrance door revealed that the adhesive holding the carpet down was life-expired, resulting in a rucked up carpet and an almost shut out 'tin-opener'. You can buy metal strips to cover carpet joins, carpet ends etc which are screwed into the floor. I screwed such a strip over the offending piece of carpet....problem solved.

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Issue Advice Needed...
From: Newport Boy
Date: 07 Dec 12 - 10:13 AM

Bobert - I hope that was a mis-spelling of 'cayenne' and not 'cyanide'.

Phil

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Issue Advice Needed...
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Dec 12 - 09:31 AM

We have the spray... It's not 100%... The cat seems most interested with the sliding door that goes out of the bak of the house and I have put an old wood/metal milk box (the kind from the 50s) there and we leave it there...

That's why he is now interested in other doors... I'm going to keep spraying and I'm gonna put some cyannne pepper down around the others and see if that works...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Issue Advice Needed...
From: Becca72
Date: 07 Dec 12 - 09:24 AM

:-) Gnu, my cat's may not be able to type (yet) but they CAN talk...

Based on the original problem, though, the cat only does this when no one is around. Difficult to scold, swat, whatever if you are not there.... I still would suggest putting something on the carpet to make the cat not want to be there, be it a sticky mat, tin foil, static mat, or citrus spray.

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Issue Advice Needed...
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Dec 12 - 11:28 PM

Agree must never hit a cat with any force; but find a firm 'no' accompanied by a tap on the nose or just above the tail-joint with a forefinger will get the message home; as will pushing or lifting her gently off a surface where she is not supposed to go, again accompd by a 'no'. Cats can learn from such deterrents IME.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Issue Advice Needed...
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Dec 12 - 08:27 PM

Hot peppers??? Hmmmm???

Best idea yet...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Issue Advice Needed...
From: GUEST,Dani
Date: 06 Dec 12 - 08:18 PM

Hot pepper on the carpet he shouldn't shred. Coupla good sneezes should do the trick.

Dani

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Issue Advice Needed...
From: gnu
Date: 06 Dec 12 - 06:31 PM

Becca... I thought it was clear that that was secondary if they didn't understand and respond to my my first "request".

I would never go straight to such tactics with ANY animal except a human and, evean then, it would be measured upon the situation. gnus may become Wildebeestes instantaneously when dealing with trolls and bullies who represent themselves as intelligent humans here in Mudcat but cats can't even type. >;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Issue Advice Needed...
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 06 Dec 12 - 05:31 PM

I've always accepted my cats' behaviour, including bringing in dead/alive rats, mice or birds etc. Living in the countryside, I'm quite ok about dealing with these things. Rather than trying to train or punish them, I work around it. For instance, removing things from weeing range, covering food with a plate on the counter top, using disinfectant spray after they've walked on a surface etc. Cats do like and get used to a routine, so mine know, for example, that I have a nap in the afternoon and they have theirs too in their beds. I agree about children though, Michael, because you can at least talk and explain things to them. I've never hit or smacked a cat. Their bones are quite fragile and it only makes them nervous and/or vicious. Even if you shout, it startles and frightens them. Perhaps I spoil mine, but I've had cats all my life and have always had success in living happily with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Issue Advice Needed...
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Dec 12 - 05:19 PM

I agree about trophies, Eliza, and what cats do. But you will know there are all kinds of things that creatures [& children too, for that matter] 'do', but have to be persuaded out of for the sake of society [= in this case the household] as a whole.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Issue Advice Needed...
From: Becca72
Date: 06 Dec 12 - 03:53 PM

Gnu - I was referring to your statement that you scolded them loudly, stomped your foot and then gave them the silent treatment...that is not normal cat behavior.

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Issue Advice Needed...
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Dec 12 - 03:21 PM

This cat will paw at any door... Not necessarily the ones going outside... Bedroom door... Bathroom door... My office door... If I were to paint a fake door on the wall he would tear the carpet up under it, as well...

Other than that he is a good cat...

B;~(