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BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: GUEST,gillymor Date: 15 Dec 12 - 07:23 AM Agreed Lizzie and well said. That's a first step. Next I would implore everybody to contact their congressman, senator and the president and let them know if they want your support then they have to do something about this. They've got to find a solution. They've got to turn their back on the gun lobby and their tainted money and find some way to prevent or at least make these tragedies less likely to occur. Let's rekindle the national conversation and keep it going. And Krinkle, when you move into your cave have a large boulder placed in it's mouth so no creeps can get into it (or out of it). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle Date: 15 Dec 12 - 07:41 AM I've never been to America. i don't get it. Do ORDINARY people - not farmers and hunters, not cops and robbers - own guns? Do most householders have a gun? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Ron Davies Date: 15 Dec 12 - 07:44 AM OK, Mr Krinkle, (not Kris, I suspect) if mental health is the issue, not guns, why does the US have hugely more gun deaths than most other Western nations?. Other nations have mental health problems--just not the stupidly easy access to guns-- to solve their perceived problems-- that people have here. The Second Amendment, combined with US pathetic ignorance of history, is a curse. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Henry Krinkle Date: 15 Dec 12 - 07:45 AM Go turn your gun in. I've been in the military.. I'll keep mine. I know how and when to use it. =(:-( l) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Ron Davies Date: 15 Dec 12 - 08:06 AM I've been in the military too. But I didn't come out paranoid--that's not a requirement, you know. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Henry Krinkle Date: 15 Dec 12 - 08:14 AM You want only the government to have guns. How nice for them. And if we don't have guns, the government won't need them anymore, either. Peace on Earth in our time. I think you've hit on something, by Jove! =(:-( O) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: bobad Date: 15 Dec 12 - 08:16 AM Larry Pratt, executive director of Gun Owners of America, says that this tragedy is the fault of gun control supporters - that it could have been prevented if more people, including teachers, were armed. WTF??? This kind of shit is precisely wherein the problem lies. Wake up America - only when the worship of gun ownership and glorification of violence are seen as an aberration and people like Larry Pratt are considered to be mentally defective will you start to become a civilized society. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Henry Krinkle Date: 15 Dec 12 - 08:32 AM People behave in the presence of a gun. I've seen it with my own eyes and gun. No brag. Just fact. Mr. Pratt is right. =(:-( l) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 15 Dec 12 - 08:40 AM The problem is not the number of guns, but the uniquely American attitude toward them. In the American mythos, the gun is "The Great Problem Solver". Our films, television programs, video games, and popular fiction romanticize the gun's ability to set things right. They tell us that going out in a blaze of glory is an admirable thing to do. So, why should we be surprised when some guy who feels he's been given a raw deal lashes out in precisely the way he's been repeatedly told is heroic? The key to solving gun violence is to send a countermessage that guns don't solve problems. They create them. It's not going to be an easy message to send, if for no other reason than that the current "Guns are cool!" message makes so much money for the mass media. For every film which shows how an act of gun violence destroys lives, there are dozens of others depicting gun-wielders as heroes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Bobert Date: 15 Dec 12 - 08:40 AM Some common sense is what is needed: 1. No one needs an assault rifle except the military... You don't hunt with them... You don't sport shoot with them... You kill people with them... 2. No high capacity ammo clips... If you haven't hit Bambi or the target with the first 10 rounds chances are that you won't with the next 20 or 30 rounds... 3. Restore background checks... 4. Registration of handguns and proficiency certificates required to register them... None of these will "take away your guns" unless you are not qualified to shoot one half-way safely, are nuts or a criminal... Time for sanity... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Ron Davies Date: 15 Dec 12 - 08:46 AM "only the government..."' Please lie down, Mr. Krinkle, and tell us how long you've been having this paranoia. I'm sure we can help you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: bobad Date: 15 Dec 12 - 09:08 AM Interesting graphic on the demographics of gun ownership in America: http://publicreligion.org/site/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/AugustRNS_GunOwnership.jpg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Howard Jones Date: 15 Dec 12 - 09:10 AM Historically, people in England had a common-law right to bear arms. Over time, laws were passed restricting this right, most recently as a result of shootings similar to the one we have sadly just witnessed. The difference between here and the US is that there was massive public support for these controls. The history here shows that it is possible for a society to disarm itself, if there is a willingness to do so. Sadly, even in the aftermath of tragedies such as this one, US society doesn't seem to be willing to do this. Of course, there are still guns in circulation here and they are mostly in the hands of criminals. However these seem to be mainly drug dealers and street gangs, who mostly use them against each other. The courts here come down very heavily on armed robbery, so this is unusual and most ordinary criminals don't carry guns. My house may get burgled or I may get mugged in the street, but I don't expect that either of them will be carrying a gun and don't feel a need to arm myself against them. I, and I think most Brits, look at the American fetish with firearms with bewilderment. I can understand its historical roots, but I cannot see how it has a place in a modern civilized society. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Ron Davies Date: 15 Dec 12 - 09:23 AM By the way, Mr. Krinkle, you've seen these black helicopters flying around? You know they're from the UN, don't you. And that fluoride in the water. You know the government put it there, of course. You'd better look into getting your water from another source. You can't be too careful, you know. Just maybe that's the reason for your impotence. You might want to consider that. But it's good to know you're being vigilant and alert. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Henry Krinkle Date: 15 Dec 12 - 09:32 AM I have been thinking about the consequences of the fluoridation lately. I'm not sure what trouble it's causing, but I'm sure it is. I'm not impotent, though. The guns are here to stay. That's just a fact. Not far from me is a town where every home owner is required by law to own one. =(:-( 0) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Stu Date: 15 Dec 12 - 10:02 AM "The guns are here to stay." You poor, impotent thing. How many dead innocents will satisfy your bloodlust? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Bat Goddess Date: 15 Dec 12 - 10:16 AM Why is no background check or investigation to see whether there is a legitimate need for people buying body armor? Seems to me it's an indicator of some sort. If there's no legitimate need (and what, exactly, is a legitimate need?) at the very least the purchaser would bear watching... Linn |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Jeri Date: 15 Dec 12 - 10:26 AM I'll leave the stupidity to the troll(s) and trollfuckers. Al, I don't believe most households have guns, but I haven't been in most households. Where I live, it's rural. People here go hunting, and they have guns to shoot vermin--in most cases that's some sort of animal they consider dangerous or obnoxious that strays too close to their homes. Every once in a while, I hear what could only be automatic or semi-automatic gunfire. We have our share of paranoid nut-jobs, but as long as they don't shoot first, I can deal with them. They're killing targets. No one I've talked to in my neighborhood has said they have a handgun. Most of the people I've known in my life haven't own any guns at all. The guns ARE here to say. Anyone who thinks laws will make them go "poof" is delusional. The box is open. There are probably millions of guns in the US, and they aren't going to disappear, but we need better control. I don't know that if he hadn't been able to get his mother's guns, he would have made a bomb, started a fire, or done something else. I don't know... really. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: pdq Date: 15 Dec 12 - 10:30 AM Kennesaw, Georgia gun law: 1982 ordinance [Sec 34-21][18] (a) In order to provide for the emergency management of the city, and further in order to provide for and protect the safety, security and general welfare of the city and its inhabitants, every head of household residing in the city limits is required to maintain a firearm, together with ammunition therefore. (b)Exempt from the effect of this section are those heads of households who suffer a physical or mental disability which would prohibit them from using such a firearm. Further exempt from the effect of this section are those heads of households who are paupers or who conscientiously oppose maintaining firearms as a result of beliefs or religious doctrine, or persons convicted of a felony. Note: crime rate dropped by half after this law was passed. In 2007, the city was selected by Family Circle magazine as one of the nation's "10 best towns for families". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: GUEST,999 Date: 15 Dec 12 - 10:48 AM Jeri, keep in mind that about 1 in 3 homes has guns. "The FBI estimates that there are over 200 million privately-owned firearms in the US." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: GUEST,gillymor Date: 15 Dec 12 - 10:48 AM Howard Jones your post above gives me hope that someday, as a society, we in the USA will outgrow our infatuation with guns. Of course it will take a Herculean effort and a lot more heartache. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Jeri Date: 15 Dec 12 - 11:01 AM Some gun owners have one gun. Some have ten. I don't think they're spread around evenly. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: GUEST,999 Date: 15 Dec 12 - 11:02 AM That's what I said. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Jeri Date: 15 Dec 12 - 11:16 AM I couldn't see that, 9. I am realizing, looking at statistics and not going from what I've witnessed, what I've believed, a lot more homes have guns in them that I'd though. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Noreen Date: 15 Dec 12 - 11:34 AM I've just read someone on facebook saying that these murders were part of an orchestrated campaign to try and get gun control started in America- 'and once it's started it won't stop'. Please, American friends, tell me that this not a widely-held view on your side of the pond?? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Bill D Date: 15 Dec 12 - 11:45 AM I'm awake to another day.... and more of the same arguments. "..anyone can make a gun out of anything." First, that is hyperbole... even experts need some basic items. And second, most people would NOT be able to....or want to. Third, most of those who could would need detailed instructions and/or an expert looking over their shoulder. Fourth, those who could and wanted to would need ammunition, and even fewer could make powder and useful shells for their non-standard creations. Finally, if, in a society where there were few **legal** guns they did make illegal ones, and USED gun & ammo in criminal ways, they wouldn't last long! Ok... here I go, venting.. The stupidest argument going is that "if more people were gun owners and trained to use them, all would be safer!" Think about it! How many people do YOU know who would never be competent to own a gun and trustworthy to use one properly? Those people are called victims! Please remember... these gun crimes are **usually** committed by people- usually young males- with mental, family, and societal issues! THEY can be 'trained' to use a gun and legally licensed before they choose to do something stupid! Those who can't pass a usage & mental test..or are too young... can steal one!! Even those who are not likely to intentionally shoot up schools can accidentally shoot their family & friends... and do... every day. And some of you want to argue that MORE guns are the best policy? Quote: "BULLSHIT"! Unquote. It makes NO difference even if you manage to reduce the percentage of idiots and disturbed individuals by psychology, testing, and various other methods... there WILL be more than you can find & deal with- like ants at a picnic. The ants, at least, are doing something natural, antwise. We deal with ants by controlling the ways ants can bother us! We cover our food, eat at a table,etc. We do not attempt to train other ants to fight the first ants... or train all family members to squish ants! So... you don't like my silly metaphor? Let's cut to the chase. With a steady supply of unstable people seemingly guaranteed, we either control the ways they can bother us or we accept more stories like this. By all means... do whatever possible to diagnose & treat mental instabilities for all sorts of reasons! Just don't kid yourselves that YOU.. or any combination of relatively sane, trained gun owners... can seriously control these Let's be honest... guns are in many ways similar to drugs. The more people mess with them, the more addictive they are! Even those of you who are not likely to EVER do anything stupid with them can't quit talking about them... comparing details, firepower, ammo, etc. You flatly do not WANT to lose your guns, and you create complex stories to justify your addiction! For every story where a gun was used wisely in self defense, there are a hundred where a tragedy occurred.... and THAT is a statistic that only needs tweaking to clarify the truth. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Bill D Date: 15 Dec 12 - 11:48 AM "..., tell me that this not a widely-held view on your side of the pond??" No..it is not 'widely' held.. but like all such conspiracy theories, some are mentally ready to believe it to fit with their other theories. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: GUEST,gillymor Date: 15 Dec 12 - 11:56 AM Noreen, in my small corner of the planet that does not seem to be the prevailing opinion. However, the NRA has long promoted an attitude that some gun owners have bought into that reads, "If we let 'em ban any type of gun they'll be coming for our deer rifles directly." I'm a gun owner (though I haven't used one for more than 30 years) and most of the gun owners I've known (with some notable exceptions) have been very responsible and are in favor of limiting public access to certain types of firearms and intensive background checks. Just my experience. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Jeri Date: 15 Dec 12 - 12:09 PM It's a view held by nuts. Can't conceive of anybody slaughtering his mother, 20 children and 5 (?) other adults with such a total disregard for life an obvious rage to REALLY be interested in anything else, especially not gun control. I know this is a heated topic and is bound to get more heated. My not-nice reference to trolls above is more about the ones who obvious don't give a shit about the children or the situation but seem to try to dispassionately provoke those who usually can be provoked. It wasn't about those who are angry, but ones who just want to yank chains. I can see having guns for hunting, but we're rapidly proving that the whole reason for the 2nd amendment doesn't exist anymore. The fact is that the guns ARE out there, and I can't see any good way to make them not be. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: dick greenhaus Date: 15 Dec 12 - 12:25 PM Just to keep things straight, the Connecticut killer used guns that were purchased legally, by his mother, a kindergarten teacher. Further, I think that any comparison about the danger of a madman with a gun with one with a knife is ludicrous, As is equating the dangers of a homemade zip gun with a AK47. Given the number of guns available in the US, I don't believe that laws aimed at limiting the number of guns available would work, though background checks and elimination of gun-dhow sales without such checks would be a good ideaa, as would having strict penalties on private ales of guns without any records or checks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: olddude Date: 15 Dec 12 - 12:37 PM We will agree to disagree Janie. Given the nature of the violence lately, am I really that out to lunch. However, being X law enforcement and X everything else I guess I am a bit partial to responsible citizens owning firearms. I have no worries with the proper checks and training. Like I said many times it is the gun show purchases that scare the hell out of me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Jeri Date: 15 Dec 12 - 12:43 PM The latest is the guy's mother was NOT a kindergarten teacher. They say she may have substituted, but last I heard, they didn't know. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Greg F. Date: 15 Dec 12 - 01:18 PM Yeah, but Dan, the problem is that there AREN't proper checks and training. And it isn't only the gun show exception - there are states where you can walk in off the street and purchase whatever you want, no questions asked. Until there are rational and universal national requirements ("states rights" be damned) its a lost cause. Best, Greg (responsible firearms owner & hunter) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: pdq Date: 15 Dec 12 - 01:30 PM RUPERT MURDOCH: 'When Will Politicians Find Courage To Ban Automatic Weapons?' 15DEC2012 Are the Brits here getting their "news" from one of ol' Rupert's outlets? First, only two guns were taken into the school, both handguns. They were concealed (illegal). An AR-15 (or similar) rifle was found in the car but not used. It is NOT an automatic. Last I heard, there were about 16,000 active permits for automatic weapons (aka machine guns) and only one owner of such a permit has ever killed someone since machine guns were banned in 1934. He was a cop who found his wife with another man and shot her, not him. I believe he used his service revolver, not the automitic rifle anyway. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Bat Goddess Date: 15 Dec 12 - 01:44 PM The weapon found (in the car, I think) was a .223-caliber Bushmaster rifle -- which has absolutely no purpose other than combat. Why was it one of the weapons registered to the shooter's mother? And the two handguns were a Glock and a SIG Sauer both 9mm, both semi-automatics that fire up to 5 bullets per second. Expensive, too. All of 'em. And registered to his mother. Linn |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Bill D Date: 15 Dec 12 - 01:48 PM Headlines on CNN this morning say that **4** handguns were found in the school... yesterday they said that the boy had 'access' to 5 guns. It seems he had more than he needed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: kendall Date: 15 Dec 12 - 01:49 PM Jack, who the hell are you to be calling me a LIAR? I quoted the stats I have at hand, AND I was comparing them to OUR murder rate. I demand an apology. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Greg F. Date: 15 Dec 12 - 01:58 PM PeeDee, give up on the automatic(machine gun) Vs. Semi-automatic bullshit- so some folks aren't conversant with firearms design & function. Doesn't really matter to the point under discussion. Its a smokescreen & doesn't advance the rational discussion of solutions to the continued policies of idiocy in the U.S. at the behest of the NRA, those they are able to scare into hysteria, and those with cold, dead brains. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Jeri Date: 15 Dec 12 - 02:00 PM They just said 3 guns were found IN the school. I'm beginning to think this will only get better when people who want a gun just because they WANT a gun because they maybe one day might have to shoot someone to save a life start believing that their right to do so is not worth even one child's life. or maybe, just when there's a link between the two things. It's the whole culture of being entitled/having the right to own something whose sole purpose is to kill. ...just in case ...because the person WANTS a gun. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Jeri Date: 15 Dec 12 - 02:04 PM OK the nuts factor is already through the roof, and I'm probably included. Have fun beating the figurative crap out of each other... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: kendall Date: 15 Dec 12 - 02:12 PM Jack Campin, apparently, the stats I had are out of date. I just found some new one at the Guardian web site. To call someone a liar when they were simply mistaken calls for education, NOT name calling. I admit to being wrong, are you man enough to apologize? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: kendall Date: 15 Dec 12 - 02:14 PM One more point. Consider this,as I said, every Swiss man has a gun. What would our homicide rate be if EVERY American man had a gun? That was my point, and still is. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: pdq Date: 15 Dec 12 - 02:37 PM "And the two handguns were a Glock and a SIG Sauer both 9mm, both semi-automatics that fire up to 5 bullets per second." "Semi-automatic pistols, as opposed to fully automatic pistols, fire a single shot each time you depress the trigger until the gun's magazine is empty." Well, even a realistic rate of one bullet every one or two seconds would do two things: empty a 9-round clip very quickly, and hit nothing (a good idea, in this case). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: gnu Date: 15 Dec 12 - 02:42 PM Just a reminder... machine pistols and rifles (automatic fire weapons) can be turned into "machine guns" in about five minutes with a file and screwdriver but they are not the weapon of choice for a crazy person with their feet on the ground. And... yes, yet again (sorry)... the weapon of choice for sane citizens is good gun laws. Jeri... "trollfuckers"... excellent term. I may put that on a post-it and stick it on my monitor. Not that I won't but if it stops me just once, that's a good thing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: John P Date: 15 Dec 12 - 02:59 PM I keep hearing that "no responsible gun owner would do this" or "no responsible gun owner would do that". The problem isn't the responsible gun owners. It's that we let irresponsible people have guns. There are a few things we could do that would allow responsible gun owners to keep their guns, but let the rest of us have a little more confidence that the person next to us on the freeway or behind us in the grocery line isn't both mentally unstable and carrying a gun: A requirement for extensive training for all gun owners. Extensive background checks and a demonstrated need before we give concealed weapons permits. The right to sell a gun should be very difficult to obtain. A fascination with guns should probably be a disqualifier. No automatic firearms of any kind. Any gun that's confiscated gets destroyed. All guns should be securely locked up when not in use. Stolen guns get that way because they aren't adequately secured. Allowing a gun to fall into the hands of your unsupervised child should be a felony. As for the statement that if guns are illegal only criminals will have guns, I would like to point out that if guns are illegal, someone has to become a criminal before they use a gun. The way things are now, many crazy people who shoot others don't become criminals until they open fire. If the criminality happened earlier in the process, we'd have a better chance of keeping it from getting to the shooting stage. Also, most people are law-abiding and wouldn't buy a gun if it was illegal to do so. The problem is the ones who buy them legally and then go crazy or allow their guns to be stolen by other people who go crazy. Besides, if only criminals have guns, it will be easier to tell who they are. There are statistics that show that a gun in the home is four times more likely to be used on a friend, neighbor, or family member than on an armed intruder. It makes me want to quiz people about gun ownership before I visit them. It makes me angry that people are allowed indiscriminate gun ownership anyway. As soon as the gun lobby can convince me that all gun owners are responsible, I'll support the so-called right to bear arms. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: Jeri Date: 15 Dec 12 - 03:04 PM Gnu, I was thinking more of troll groupies, and we have a cluster of them... maybe a couple clusters. They're "anybody's". You're a guy who gets pissed off sometimes. (or maybe you just like it when I talk dirty) Automatic weapons aren't much good except when you can't take the time to aim. Semi-automatics are actually pretty effective, because you can adjust your aim without stopping to chamber another round. I can't remember what firing a weapon that isn't at least semi-automatic is like, though. I'm still thinking about this issue, and I likely will be for a while. Civilization often requires us to do things we may not want to do for the good of the many. Many people regard capitalism as evil. I think it can be ok if people voluntarily give up their "right" to make ridiculous amounts of money. I think we have to let common sense be more important than defending our "rights". I don't have any hope that people are willing to do that. Not to pay taxes, not to make stricter gun control laws, not to cut back using fossil fuels, not to do anything inconvenient to them. Jeri Crabbypants |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: GUEST,999 Date: 15 Dec 12 - 03:20 PM A friend of mine in Canada--out west--on the day he first heard about gun registration in this country said, "I wonder what the government is going to do that I won't like." He loaded his own ammunition, kept his handguns and rifles locked up, used them only on a target range. Hell, he didn't even hunt. He collects guns and uses them on the range, that's it. I think in America that people don't trust their government. I can't blame them. They have allowed organizations like the NRA to actively influence politics. I grew up with an unloaded rifle (.22) kept in the shed along with hammers, screw drivers, nails, drills, etc. It was just another tool. Until I was deemed to be responsible enough by my Uncle Bob I was allowed only a single shot rifle and only allowed to use .22 shorts. Later, after demonstrating I could carry the firearm safely and handle it safely I was given the privilege of having a .22 with a five-round magazine. I was also allowed to use a pump .22, but he trained me to count the cartridges being loaded, and god help me if after a few hours of being in the woods looking for rabbits or squirrels and taking the odd shot or two at a stump or dead tree I couldn't tell him exactly how many shots I had left. I lost track once--thought I had seven left but had six (something like that) and that was it for hunting or target shooting for a few months. He was an ex paratrooper and took firearms very seriously, .22 rifle or not. The mindset with guns today is very different than it was in my childhood. It does worry me somewhat. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: John P Date: 15 Dec 12 - 03:24 PM There's an interesting article in the Seattle Times today that looks at some facts about guns. It seems to show that gun control works to reduce gun violence. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: GUEST,999 Date: 15 Dec 12 - 03:30 PM After reading Huckabee's crap about god being taken out of schools and so 'that's why these things happen' I went looking for this: "Oakland, Calif., April 2, 2012 A gunman kills seven people and wounds three in a shooting rampage at a Christian college in Oakland." I think America has got to 1) publicly destroy the NRA 2) publicly destroy FOX It ain't perfect, but it's a start. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns From: gnu Date: 15 Dec 12 - 03:48 PM "(or maybe you just like it when I talk dirty)" Ooooh baby, oooo baby... don't stop! Heheheheee. |
