BS: It's global warming, stupid!

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 06:11 PM

Ed, I read this last week in Weather magazine, published by the Royal Meteorological Society. My copy is currently two thousand miles away from where I am! But thanks for that anyway. I'll be back!

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Ed T
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 05:58 PM

A NOAA explanation of ocean acidification, climate and the oceans uptake if CO2:

ocean acidification 

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Ed T
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 05:40 PM

"there's solid evidence that the oceans' ability to absorb carbon dioxide is declining."

Growing ocean acidification is a science reality, not a theory.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 05:23 PM

Hi, TIA. I've missed you. I see you've been on that infernal Trump thread that I've been avoiding. I guess I'm keeping my cowardly head down in that regard in the hope that the yanks will do something sensible for a change. As for climate change, we are facing the biggest moral issue in human history. If the odds that human activity is causing climate change are 99.9%, or 95%, or 50%, or even less, then it is incumbent on us to act, and act now. There is a chance that we will get away with carrying on as we are now. I hope to Christ that we WILL get away with it if we do carry on as we are now. Sane people can see that the odds against that are massive. Oil company executives and the politicians that are in their pockets are not insane, but they are ruthless, money-grabbing bastards who know that global warming will simply drive them on to their yachts. Oil company executives don't give a damn about the hundreds of millions who live in low-lying coastal communities, or the hundreds of millions who will be driven out of their homelands by drought. Their thoughts are for the people who already have more money than they know what to do with, their big shareholders who sit on their fat arses getting richer by doing precisely nothing, and they have an unhealthy obsession with being able to manipulate politicians. They will cling to the contrary pseudo-science of denial and they have the monetary means to shove that down our throats to make it seem that this is a fifty-fifty issue. Greenhouse-gas emissions have never been higher than they are today. So much for "protocols," eh?

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 04:49 PM

What's even more worrying is that there's solid evidence that the oceans' ability to absorb carbon dioxide is declining. There is positive feedback now in process. I read about this last week but can't quote the source just now because, temporarily, I haven't got access to the article. Ask me again next Tuesday-ish.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: TIA
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 04:07 PM

Iains summed it up perfectly on Aug 25.
Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: JHW
Date: 25 Aug 16 - 02:55 PM

Re 'Belief'-
By the tracks leading opposite ways out of my local railway station both signals showed Red as I arrived. Not having seen or heard my train depart I quizzed the other waiting passenger. "No, no train either way"
But there must have been for the signal to turn Red?
"Well, that's your belief"

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Iains
Date: 25 Aug 16 - 09:21 AM

It is not so much climate change that is the problem. It is the rate of change seemingly in step with the accelerating CO2 content of the atmosphere that is of concern. Essentially fossil sunlight is being burnt off by humans at a rate ever increasing since the start of the industrial revolution and the subsequent explosion of the oil industry.
In essence more CO2 equals more energy equals more extreme events equals a potentially precarious future for humans.
That is the bare bones of the argument reduced to the lowest common denominator. Take it or leave it-the true answer is just down the road and shortly coming to a neighbourhood near you.
The climate models may be inaccurate, the details may be disputed but sufficient ecosystems show sufficient disruption over a short timescale for many to be increasingly concerned. The climatic quasi equilibrium that enabled mankind to raise crops, form communities and explode like a rash over the planet over the last few thousand years may be coming to an abrupt end.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Stu
Date: 25 Aug 16 - 06:27 AM

"from your own words, that I might well be justified in suspecting that this is yet another case of decide the answer ."

Discovering an event is occurring and what it's causes are, then understanding the processes involved as the changes occur are different things. We know what's happening and why, but finding out how that physically manifests itself and the consequences of these changes is massively important for all of our sakes. Climate science is very complex as the systems involved are very complex and needs to approached very carefully to ensure we get our understanding of man-made climate change correct,.


"Consensus science is not science..."

The consensus is reached because of the science.



"I do have some faith in scientists , but not the same ones as you"

You don't get to pick and choose who to believe or who you like best or who fits your worldview or personal philosophy, that's not how science works. Peer-reviewed research is published in scientific journals which in time will be challenged and accepted or rejected as... wait for it... consensus is reached. Science isn't Strictly Come Dancing.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Aug 16 - 08:30 PM

I don't do beliefs, nor do I have faith in scientists. Scientists are fallible, like everyone else. But if you doubt scientific consensus, you'd better have a very good argument. Scientists are, on the whole, honest brokers who work to a fairly strict code known as the scientific process, which has served humanity quite well so far. So let's have some substance for your scepticism. After all, we don't want the earth to burn, do we?

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Aug 16 - 07:43 PM

the reasoning behind your belief

Its not a "belief" pete - its a fact.

Consensus science is not science

1. You don't know what science is.

2. Biblical bullshit creationism isn't science- its bullshit.

Now, back to rational discussion by intelligent adults.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 24 Aug 16 - 07:07 PM

Thank you Steve for explaining the reasoning behind your belief. Actually , I do have some faith in scientists , but not the same ones as you. And, as I have said often, the majority of scientific consensus has often been wrong before. Consensus science is not science...

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Aug 16 - 06:10 PM

Well, Pete, here's the basics. Over the last 150 years or so, carbon dioxide emissions/deforestation have increased the atmospheric carbon dioxide level by around 20%. In the last few decades, global warming has increased in almost perfect sync with increasing carbon dioxide. The rate of warming in the last few decades is unprecedented since the end of the last ice age. The situation is no longer arguable, in spite of the best efforts of big oil and the US. Catastrophically, emissions now are greater than ever. Fanny around arguing about it all you like. The immoral position is to say that we're not sure and that we are therefore justified in doing nothing. There's a lot of it around. You will find next to no scientists taking that view. Of course, Pete, we know you don't trust scientists. Good job you're in charge of nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: mkebenn
Date: 24 Aug 16 - 05:33 PM

Pete, you don't live by the sea, do you? Mike

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Aug 16 - 05:14 PM

Pete, go read your bible & don't mess with things you don't understand, OK?

Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 24 Aug 16 - 03:30 PM

Umm, interesting stu. So there was climate change in recorded history and no one blames anyone or anything !   And the science is "settled, consensus has been reached", but still"trying to understand how climate change is happening" despite being some "years into " this enterprise.    as it happens, I am keeping a relatively open mind on man made climate change, but it does look like , from your own words, that I might well be justified in suspecting that this is yet another case of decide the answer .and then look for something to validate said answer....

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: mkebenn
Date: 24 Aug 16 - 02:09 PM

crap, should be under water, proofing while sending moron. Mike

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: mkebenn
Date: 24 Aug 16 - 02:07 PM

With half our country water and the other half aflame

time to stop denying, look around and take the blame. Mike

But let's bring the coal industry back while there's still time

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Stu
Date: 24 Aug 16 - 05:21 AM

"Was there not episodes of climate change before the industrial revolution? I think the answer is yes. What do you blame those on ?"

Who's blaming them on anything?

"the change is driven primarily by natural and non-anthropomorphic causes- The amount of greenhouse gases produced by mankind and our civilisation ( cows, etc) is dwarfed by natural causes such as volcanoes and naturally occurring fires"

So BB is more of a climate scientists than most of the climate scientists out there? Hmmm. This argument is based on personal incredulity and perhaps has political motivation but either way; the facts, empirical data scientifically obtained and subject to strict, peer-reviewed analysis does not support the argument than vulcanism and carbon emissions from natural fires are warning the climate - post refs to papers supporting these assertions if they exist.

Truth is, the deniers (who are science deniers rather than climate change deniers) are talking to themselves. My uni dept. specialises in ocean and earth science and the argument of whether humans are causing climate change is settled, consensus has been reached and we are now some years into trying to understand how climate change is happening, the consequences of that change and how to mitigate for the effects.

It's actually worse than most people think. The effects of a warming climate on the ocean are profound and very far-reaching. We know some mass extinctions correlate with changes in sea level and changes in plankton at the base of the food web has a pronounced knock-on effect reaching to the top of the food chain.

The real truth is no-one wants to change. Our free-trade based economies view everything as a resource with a price; they are incapable of understanding (or caring about) the long-term consequences of their actions and are incapable of self-regulation. They are responsible for stripping the world of it's natural resources, instigating a massive and unprecedented mass extinction event and fail to act for the common good.

Believe me, our children and grandchildren will curse us for our ignorance and greed and for squandering our natural heritage before we have even scratched the surface of it's wonders; who knows what medicines are being lost as virgin forest is felled for palm oil plantations or beef for burgers.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Iains
Date: 24 Aug 16 - 03:22 AM

When someone with the prodigious cv of Wallace Smith Broeker is quoted as saying "Climate is an angry beast and we are poking it with sticks"
it is probably sensible to have some sort of grasp of his message.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Amos
Date: 24 Aug 16 - 12:54 AM

Pete, don't be disingenuous. The answer is "not by a long shot". The orders of magnitude are completely disparate. Selective ignoral is a good first target for blame.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 23 Aug 16 - 07:42 PM

Ecclesiastes 10v 1 is presumably where that comes from Greg.    Was there not episodes of climate change before the industrial revolution? I think the answer is yes. What do you blame those on ?

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Aug 16 - 09:17 AM

Well, Mike, there is that one little fly in the ointment......

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: mkebenn
Date: 23 Aug 16 - 08:18 AM

Won't help, Greg, we have defiled the seas enough that they won't sustain us. Mike

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Aug 16 - 09:13 PM

Relax, Steve. Given enough time, humans will adapt: they'll evolve gills.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Aug 16 - 08:27 PM

The correlation between warming, as measured by thousands of weather stations on land, at sea and on moving and fixed buoys, and that increase in concentration of atmospheric carbon dioxide which can only have been brought about by human activity is just about perfect. Of course, you don't have to trust the science. Pete doesn't trust the science and big oil doesn't trust the science. Yanks with gas-guzzling six-pots running on super-cheap petrol don't trust the science. But the science applies very careful corrections for instrumental bias, for irregular distribution of recording stations, for irregularities of instrumental exposure and for a whole host of other potential sources of error. Despite that, the conclusions are scary. The planet is warming because of what we do. We deny it at our peril.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Aug 16 - 06:22 PM

there is an indication of climate change occurring, but not driven by man-made sources

Of course you don't BB - you're a denier of a whole pantheon of phenomena and facts that have been repeatedly explained and proven.

So you're one of those adaptidiots - would expect nothing else from you.

By the way, are you also a Birther, along with Trump?

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Iains
Date: 22 Aug 16 - 04:46 PM

Since the beginning of the industrial revolution, atmospheric concentrations of carbon dioxide have increased nearly 30 percent, methane concentrations have more than doubled, and nitrous oxide concentrations have risen by about 15 percent. The previous 2000 years show a high degree of stability of concentrations. The combined effect of these increases is to place more energy into the atmosphere due to the greenhouse effect. Additionally the rate of increase is accelerating. The ramifications of these changes are still beyond quantification for the most part, hence the many arguments. There are also many major and minor cyclic changes within the oceanic and atmospheric circulatory systems that continue in the background. The impact of additional energy pumped into these systems is as yet not clear. However there are fears that when certain trigger points are met events cascade to a new equilibrium and many of these could make life extremely untidy for humanity. Potential scenarios are the cessation of the Atlantic conveyor, melting methane hydrates, methane release from melting tundra, cessation or change of direction of monsoons, rapid destabilisation of the greenland ice cap etc. These things may not come to pass but gas guzzling, centrally heated obese westerners should perhaps question the sustainability of their present lifestyles in the light of what could happen. Some scientists also believe that changes that were once thought to require several lifetimes to occur could actually occur in the space of several years.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Aug 16 - 03:37 PM

From a posting on a news site:

"1) It is not clear that the earth is actually warming in any statistically significant way. Data sets used to show warming are highly adjusted and filled with interpolations to fill in and replace missing or incongruent data. The instruments used to gather the data are not located in sufficient numbers or over a geographically represented area to calculate an average with sufficient precision to calculate an average temperature today and much less so historically.
2) It is impossible to conclude what % of any warming is human caused. We are in an inter-glacial period of an Ice Age and we have been steadily warming for the past 10,000 years. We are not yet even to the Earth's geological average temperature. The average state of the Earth has no ice at either pole.
3) Warming itself is not shown to be harmful let alone "catastrophic." Historically, all life has done significantly better during the earth's warmer periods. We are not experiencing any statistical increase in extreme weather, floods, fire or drought. Sea level rise is at or near the 100+ year average showing no material acceleration. Global food production is at an all-time high.
4) In contrast, a colder planet would be very harmful to all life. If it were possible to warm the planet and offset the inevitable return to glaciation with increased production of clean CO2, we should.
5) None of the regulations by the EPA, proposals by Obama Admin or even the IPCC would have a material impact on the project global increase in temperature (less than .05 degrees over 50 years). The costs of these changes are $trillions. This money would be better spent on projects like mosquito abatement or virus immunizations."


I DO NOT agree with all of this- IMHO, there is an indication of climate change occurring, but not driven by man-made sources.


Some additional points to think about...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2015/11/04/the-insiders-inconvenient-numbers-for-the-global-warming-crowd/

http://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/noaa-record-temperatures-nothing-to-worry-about/

http://www.investors.com/politics/commentary/climate-change-racket-only-believers-receive-grants/

http://arstechnica.com/science/2015/07/no-scientists-arent-predicting-10ft-higher-sea-level-by-2050/

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2015/07/11/Earth-heading-for-mini-ice-age-in-just-15-years-scientists-say/2751436649025/

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/climate-change-will-not-be-dangerous-for-a-long-time/


http://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/another-climate-alarmist-admits-real-motive-behind-warming-scare/

http://thefederalist.com/2015/11/09/the-climate-change-inquisition-begins/

http://www.investors.com/global-warming-solutions-same-as-global-cooling-cures/?ref=SeeAlso

http://cnsnews.com/commentary/robert-m-carter/global-warming-alarmist-rhetoric-propaganda-and-dishonesty-heats-paris

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/climate-change-will-not-be-dangerous-for-a-long-time/

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamestaylor/2016/04/13/another-survey-of-meteorologists-undercuts-climate-alarmism/#5b9432aa627f

http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/energy-environment/252004-even-if-you-buy-the-science-the-policy-still-fails




To state my OPINION

Climate change is real and will occur regardless of what we are doing. ( In case of nuclear war, this will change)

the change is driven primarily by natural and non-anthropomorphic causes- The amount of greenhouse gases produced by mankind and our civilization ( cows, etc) is dwarfed by natural causes such as volcanoes and naturally occurring fires

We SHOULD be spending our money and efforts to allow for the inevitable changes to our climate, rather than to try to change that climate. If sea levels will rise, it makes more sense to spend money to relocate people ( which works whether the sea level rises or not ) rather than to spend huge efforts on trying to stop that rise. I had thought the since Canute the politicians had figured that out.

When there ore indications of climate change on Mars ( ice cap reduction ) and Jupiter ( Red spot changes for the first time in 400 years ( twice the time of the temperature records being used to justify "climate change alarmists" ) I do not see mankind as a significant contributor to climate change.

The present models have 95% of them showing greater than actual MEASURED temperature changes- Hardly a claim of accurate or correct modelling. This shows a bias in the models.

Looking at the 650 megayear or so cycle ( over the last 2,000 megayears) MOST of the time the earth has been warmer and NOT had an ice cap.

Either we are entering a new "hot" period, or we are having those climate swings that would indicate another ice age. In either case, it makes far more sense to use resources to ADAPT TO THE CHANGES than to try without any hope of success to change to climate to some fixed point.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: keberoxu
Date: 22 Aug 16 - 02:41 PM

The destruction of whitebark pine trees, of which Doug Peacock specifically speaks (it's happening in Montana, where he lives) is one of many symptoms itemized in
this article in The Economist.

Ravaged Woodlands: feature article

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: keberoxu
Date: 22 Aug 16 - 02:25 PM

In this C-Span video, Doug Peacock talks for a little under an hour about his book,
In the Shadow of the Sabertooth.

Live Interview with Doug Peacock

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Iains
Date: 22 Aug 16 - 01:56 PM

I am slowly converting from healthy scepticism about anthropogenic climate change to a grudging belief that it exists.
http://knowledge.insead.edu/economics-finance/settling-the-debate-on-climate-change-4851
Has anyone else had a damascus conversion as regards their thoughts concerning the cause of climate change.
(The article attributed above is merely one of a vast number over the last few years that have changed my perspective)

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Iains
Date: 09 Apr 16 - 02:27 PM

One interesting facet of the climate change controversy is the idea that events may change slowly until reaching a tipping point. At this juncture many inter-related factors come into play causing a cascade of events causing very rapid change. Very much like a meteorite ambling through space. Quite innocuous until it impacts earth but then the results can be devastating.
    We know these events have occurred in the past but the money devoted to researching future impacts is minute. Mythologies from around the world give a race memory of these events and strangely ancient man had a fixation on the zodiac, a way of measuring vast measures of time(nearly 26000 yrs) I do not believe this was a construct merely to stir the porridge for the requisite length of time.
It is only in the last half century the techniques have become sufficiently refined for paleoclimate studies to have real meaning and accurate temperature records for perhaps 150 years(though increasing urbanisation make some of these readings suspect)
As a final indignity we have the IPCC hijacked by politicos so their ramblings are now meaningless. We have a major problem sorting wheat from chaff, mythology from fact or fiction and scientific fact from propaganda.
Unfortunately we need a paradigm shift in the way we approach these various studies and a way of unifying them to make sensible interpretations as to our immediate future climate.

As an aside perusing the following gives food for thought.
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/hamlets_mill/hamletmill.htm

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: keberoxu
Date: 09 Apr 16 - 12:58 PM

I can't do links, not even blue clicky links; but I can give you a URL.

http://billingsgazette.com/news/local/naturalist-author-like-a-lot-of-veterans-I-was-out/article_38906b7c-2d09-5bd6-b261-2684c4a8de83.html

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: keberoxu
Date: 08 Apr 16 - 02:57 PM

Any of you ever heard of an author named Doug Peacock?

Latest book:
In The Shadow Of The Sabertooth. You want the revised edition; when the earlier edition went to press, the author was hospitalized between hip-replacement-replacement (said the same thing twice for a reason) and open-heart surgery, so the editing was not up to his standards. Hence the need for revision.

No, not changing the subject. Peacock posits a connection between megafauna in another epoch, and global warming.

Sorry, links are beyond me though.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 08:41 AM

One would wonder why Exxon/Mobil might bear the brunt of a legal dispute dealing with climate change, but think of it along the lines of Philip Morris (in whatever form/s the company footprint held in the 1960s and 70s) not disclosing, instead trying to debunk, what it knew about the hazards of smoking. They weren't the only oil company in the world, but they knew what the score was and denied it.

From the PRI article linked directly above:

Inside Climate News reporter Lisa Song says their investigation found that ExxonMobil was "very much aware of climate change science" as long ago as 1977, and that company scientists had briefed top executives about both climate change and the role of fossil fuel combustion in driving the rise of CO2 in the atmosphere.

The reporting team also found that Exxon went on to conduct its own rigorous research, which confirmed both the reality of climate change and the potential risks that tighter regulation of fossil fuel might present to the company's bottom line, but that it didn't file an in-depth discussion of the issue with the Securities and Exchange Commission until 2009.

It's the SEC part of that story that is going to cause the company to stew for a while.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Nov 15 - 06:26 PM

""If you run into an oil man in a bar, you might want to buy him a drink. It's been a bit of a tough week for the business. It was the end of the line for the Keystone XL pipeline, and possibly the beginning of big trouble for ExxonMobil concerning what it knew when about climate change.""




Exxon under investigation 

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Oct 15 - 04:08 PM

Greg... isn't that about what I said?

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Oct 15 - 03:12 PM

The big delay is with companies who have their $$$$$ invested in old technology

No, Bill, the big delay is due to idiots that deny that there is global climate change and to the supporters of big business, corporate welfare and obscene profits and damn the environmental consequences.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Oct 15 - 01:46 PM

Right now there IS evidence that human activity is, at a minimum, contributing to the very obvious climate changes. It 'may' be that some warming is also natural, but no matter what the specific % for any one cause, it stands to reason that acting as though we have some input to the problem(s) and doing all we can to move away from fossil fuels and other environmentally unfriendly activities would be a good idea!

That is, "it wont hurt, and it will help some things". The big delay is with companies who have their $$$$$ invested in old technology and old habits. (Can anyone remember the arguments about tobacco?)

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 29 Oct 15 - 11:59 AM

Just out of interest, Pete, would you mind awfully letting us know what qualifications you've got in climate science, please?

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Oct 15 - 09:47 AM

Lyell's Law of Uniformitarianism stated that all events occur slowly over immense spans of geologic time. Shoemaker Levy impacting into Jupiter suggested our mindset may need readjustment. Thus also with climate change. It will change sometimes fast sometimes slowly. Man may or may not impact these events.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Oct 15 - 05:32 PM

Will you disable air conditioning you have used the most?
Will you drive a car that requires oil and gas?
Will you give back all income derived from making planned obsolescence items with short lifetimes?

No but that is not your fault.

People who are paid to be climate deniers will not either but it is a corruption that is at fault by the entities who employed them.

For the price of an impenetrable wall at our border we could solarize the metro east coast not including the cost of real estate conundrum.

The art of the possible still needs its hero to make big oil obsolete.


The looming tragedy of fracking compounds our fresh ground water crises.

Awareness of the problem is no more than planning a meeting to discuss a concept to come up with an idea that will defined at a later time.

The inability to breathe in Beijing is barely capable of influencing the slowing of building new coal plants.

Chernobyl and Fukashima was enough to change policy in Germany but not elsewhere.

We have millionaires paid to game the system and knowingly search for safe nuclear dumping grounds they know do not exist.

I am afraid that no disaster will change the direction we have been going. Rebuilding after total catastrophe may not even be enough to avert the ultimate conclusion of global warming and human behavior for which we accidentally chose at the outset of each new technology that promised us warmth and comport.

Maybe there will be a technology that will save us but don't you usually think I am wrong?

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Oct 15 - 12:06 AM

Having once in a thousand year weather events every couple years does not mean global warming is at fault, it means time is moving faster.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Oct 15 - 08:53 PM

"God showed Noah by the rainbow sign
No more water, but Fire Next Time"

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Oct 15 - 08:11 PM

pete, say good night. You're obviously as ignorant about this issue as you are about evolution.

What does the Bible say about global warming? That would be the ultimate authority for you, no?

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 27 Oct 15 - 04:04 PM

I thought the argument was about whether we are having any significant contribution to its increase.   Weather and temperature fluctuation has happened previously I understand. Is anyone saying it is not now ?

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: skarpi
Date: 27 Oct 15 - 03:18 PM

We watched our claciers get smaller and smaller year after year, so think about it , is that stupid ?

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Oct 15 - 11:53 AM

No point in round 2 - the Global Warming deniers are in the same category as the "earth is 6000 years old" creationists, Holocaust deniers, and other miscellaneous batshit crazy lunatics.

Subject: RE: BS: It's global warming, stupid!
From: GUEST,Iain
Date: 27 Oct 15 - 10:51 AM

is it time for seconds out and round 2 on this highly controversial thread.