Folklore: Mama don't allow no hippophagy here

Subject: Folklore: Mama don't allow no hippophagy here
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 02:12 PM

There is a current scandal in the UK because burgers made in Ireland and sold through the Tesco supermarket chain have been found to contain 25% horsemeat.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21038521

We are being told either that that's disgusting, or that the British people in general find it disgusting.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21043368

Well, count me out. I've never been repelled by the idea and would quite happily eat horsemeat if it was available - whereas I haven't eaten British-produced beef since the BSE epidemic started. I have eaten donkey once, in Croatia, and preferred it to beef. Nor have I ever encountered anyone else who was revolted by the idea of eating horse.

So who are all these outraged people? And why can't I just go into a deli and buy this?

Canned horse meat from Kazakhstan

I'd guess there are songs about The Roast Horse of Old Kazakhstan but I haven't found one yet. Surely somebody has a song about a horsemeat feast?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mama don't allow no hippophagy here
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 02:34 PM

Many years ago, Senator Everett_Dirksen, (who had a deep, gravelly voice) was opposed to a bill allowing 'some' horsemeat to be sold for human consumption.

When his turn came to comment, he simply got up and sang:

♫The old grey mare, she ain't what she used to be.
Out of the stable now-
Onto the table now.
The old grey mare, she ain't what she used to be-
A blue-plate platter soon!♫


The bill failed.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mama don't allow no hippophagy here
From: gnomad
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 03:29 PM

Perfectly happy to eat horse (haven't done so to my knowledge, but have eaten donkey, OK, and kangaroo, less so) so I am happy with the ingredient. However I do want the package (or butcher, WHY) to accurately describe what is on sale.

You can sell Dachshund meat for all I care (sorry, LH, I know you are fond of them) just don't tell me it's something else.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mama don't allow no hippophagy here
From: gnomad
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 03:33 PM

Sorry, meant to refer to Little boy Billee, to keep the music reference. I'd probably not eat boy if I could avoid it, but given the alternative of say slug I might face a difficult choice.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mama don't allow no hippophagy here
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 03:57 PM

Ate it as a kid. Don't anymore.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mama don't allow no hippophagy here
From: GUEST,Seonaid
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 04:03 PM

There's a story dating from the (previous) Great Depression about a butcher who was doing a terrific business selling rabbit sausages.
Noting a scarcity of local rabbits, the food inspectors came calling and inquired about his ingredients.
"Tell us," they prompted, "are using any filler in these rabbit sausages -- say, horsemeat?"
The butcher looked uneasy and allowed that sometimes he might use a little horsement, if he couldn't get enough rabbits.
"And just how much is 'a little' horsemeat?" pressed the inspectors.
"Well, a proportion," he dodged.
"All right, be honest, now!" demanded the inspectors. "How much horsement are you really using?"
"Well," admitted the butcher, squirming. "It's 50-50!"
"50-50?" repeated the inspectors, skeptically.
"Yes, 50-50!" the butcher insisted. "One horse, one rabbit!"

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mama don't allow no hippophagy here
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 04:20 PM

Eating horse is no more barbaric than eating deer, or cows. I have eaten (and enjoyed) horsemeat burgers in France, kangaroo in Oz, and goat in Jugoslavia (as was)
Like the cannibal said. "If god hadn't meant us to eat people, he wouldn't have made them of meat!"

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mama don't allow no hippophagy here
From: Leadfingers
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 06:07 PM

Its being wrongly labelled that is the main problem I think !

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mama don't allow no hippophagy here
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 06:16 PM

Rabbits that meow?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mama don't allow no hippophagy here
From: Rumncoke
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 06:29 PM

There could possibly be a problem with the slaughtering - the meat comes from Europe, so I don't know the regulations there, however, there is no line for horses in the slaughter houses here.

Personally I would not eat horse meat - well - not unless it was to stay alive. Not out of any thought that it was not good meat, just that the horse is a different sort of animal. I'd probably have no problem with zebra - but donkey isn't food either.

During the times of rationing here in the UK horse meat was sold as food for dogs, dyed green. Not because it was unfit to eat, just so that no one could sell it as something it was not.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mama don't allow no hippophagy here
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 06:56 PM

Horse, the other, other red meat...

Here Trigger...

B~

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mama don't allow no hippophagy here
From: frogprince
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 08:25 PM

Sometine in my grade school or junior high school years we bought some horse burger, labeled as such, in a local grocery in Minnesota. So far as I can remember, our only real reaction was "this isn't very flavorful burger".

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mama don't allow no hippophagy here
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 08:37 PM

Quebec has a thriving horse meat industry where it is known as chevaline which sounds more exotic than horse. Anglo Canada is hippophobic when it comes to consumption of same.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mama don't allow no hippophagy here
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 08:39 PM

Meow...

B;~)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mama don't allow no hippophagy here
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 08:43 PM

Cat is good stir-fried.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mama don't allow no hippophagy here
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 10:01 PM

Dog, cat, rat, horse, cow, pig, deer, moose, elk, alligator, lots of different fish, rattlesnake, ducks, geese, cranes, roaches, ants, termites, swans, song birds, calves, unborn chickens...why worry about horses?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mama don't allow no hippophagy here
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Jan 13 - 10:04 PM

Well, Rap, it's like this... It takes four days of accumulating enough ants for one bite...

BTWm I ain't eatin' most of the other stuff you listed...

B~

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mama don't allow no hippophagy here
From: open mike
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 12:32 AM

sadly horses are sometimes shipped to canada and mexico to be slaughtered for human consumtion. Often they are of poor health
and some die enroute. At this time there are no slaughter houses in u.s. (thankfully)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_slaughter this article contains international data.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mama don't allow no hippophagy here
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 04:44 AM

Cat's are just another form of white meat. Or so it says on the sweater of a cat hating friend of mine ;)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mama don't allow no hippophagy here
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 04:58 AM

The problem is that the pack stated "100% beef"
No-one says that there is a health issue.
There is not.
A bigger issue for some people is that it also contained pork.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mama don't allow no hippophagy here
From: GUEST,seayaker
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 05:22 AM

The only reason horsemeat is not consumed in the UK is that you can't buy it. Looking at all the jokes on fb and comments on television, I don't think that most people would have a problem with it.

Because of the economic situation alot of horses are being poorly kept or taken in to sanctuarys, and every year ponies have to be taken off Dartmoor and Exmoor to control numbers.

I eat all the other meats, I wouldn't have a problem with horse.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mama don't allow no hippophagy here
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 09:27 AM

"So who are all these outraged people?"

No outrage observed so far, it's just a big media noise over rather little. People want cheap shit burgers, what do they expect? Most people already know that there is all kinds of far less palatable stuff that goes into them than horse meat (sawdust from the floor, sinew and hair, ammonia), it's just a bit embarrassing for the stockists who sold part horse burgers labelled as "beef".

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mama don't allow no hippophagy here
From: ranger1
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 10:06 AM

Labeling is the issue. I, personally, have no desire to consume horse meat no matter how tasty it may be. I feel the same way about goat, dog, cat, and whale. I know it's all in my head and that they are all perfectly edible protein sources. However, unless starving, I really don't want to eat them. That said, I have eaten whale, thought it was beef (and then happened to read the ingredients on the can while washing it for recycling), and found it pretty tasty. Couldn't touch the stuff after I knew what it was, though.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mama don't allow no hippophagy here
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 11:06 AM

Tesco (among others) sold these, and they weren't 'cheap shit burgers', they were reasonably priced but not dirt cheap. I wouldn't touch them because I don't like burgers, I don't want mis-labelled food and one can't be sure that the horsemeat it contained had been okayed by the inspectors who operate here in UK. It could have been infected or condemned meat. If they're pulling fast ones like this, just what else have they sneaked into our food? Saw a funny cartoon by Mac today of a horse in a race. His jockey was urging him on, 'He's behind you! The Tesco burger man!"

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mama don't allow no hippophagy here
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 01:43 PM

There's plenty of room for all god's creatures--right next to the mashed potatoes.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mama don't allow no hippophagy here
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 01:55 PM

It seems to me that most horse meat is gleaned from 'spare' horses, and would be a problem if there was high demand. Not being a rancher/breeder, I have no good idea how easy it would be to breed and market herds of horses, even if more people had no problem with it.

I 'suspect' there would be an issue with BBES^* syndrome if ponies were bred for consumption like calves are.











*Big Brown Eyes Syndrome

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mama don't allow no hippophagy here
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 02:18 PM

Calves have 'big brown eyes' too Bill
..jus' sayin' :)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mama don't allow no hippophagy here
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Jan 13 - 02:23 PM

Yup... but do a survey... Roy Rogers didn't ride cows.

(BBES has levels)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mama don't allow no hippophagy here
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 11:35 AM

Horse seeks parents in Tesco

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mama don't allow no hippophagy here
From: EBarnacle
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 01:46 PM

Roses are Red,
Violets are Blue;
Horses that lose
Are made into glue.

The basic problem with horsemeat is that has very low fat content--just like free range venison.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mama don't allow no hippophagy here
From: Bert
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 02:02 AM

...okayed by the inspectors...

Yes Eliza, that is the problem. Animals slaughtered for human consumption are regularly inspected. I suspect that such stringent regulations do not apply to animals slaughtered for pet food or glue.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mama don't allow no hippophagy here
From: gnu
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 04:44 AM

I can see why some folks would say neigh to horse meat.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mama don't allow no hippophagy here
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 05:50 AM

My impression from what little we see of rodeos on British television is that a large proportion of animals being ridden are of the bovine persuasion. Are you saying that Roy Rogers wasn't a real cowboy? (shock, horror!)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mama don't allow no hippophagy here
From: GUEST,Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 06:01 AM

"The basic problem with horsemeat is that it has a very low fat content"
You must be American, EB. Only an American would see low-fat as a 'problem' (and it shows!).

I've eaten horsemeat steak on a number of occasions in Belgium. Very nice indeed.
The only burgers I eat are ostrich-burgers, made on a local ostrich farm - red meat similar to beef in taste, extremely low fat, extremely low cholesterol, excellent!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mama don't allow no hippophagy here
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 06:23 AM

Eating horse is no problem at all. I've done so on several occasions. On a very "fluffy" UK site that I use where I'd have thought there would be a majority against eating it, 85 % of the respondents to a poll said "no problem".

What "the British people" (and "Irish people" too from what I can gather) find "disgusting" is that in the wake of various concerns about food labelling, it's possible for meat from one spieces, of indeterminate source and no apparent traceability has been sold to manufacturers.

It's quit easy to see why suppliers would do it: horsemeat "filler" is 1/4 the price of beef "filler" in continental europe, so there's an economic advantage, and in the Netherlands, where the meat was bought from by the manufacturers, the maximum fine for this mislabelling is around £800.

But the facgt that the testing regime is slacke nough to let them get away with it is pretty bad.

Re Jack's other point: I'd rather eat British raised and slaughtered beef (and pork) than non-beef meat or beef originating from areas where the animal welfare standards are lower and the inspection regimes less stringent. The sausages I buy are from pigs raised by a friend and if I want beefburgers, I make them myself from the Sussex beef I buy directly from another friend who raises a few head herself. Beef or pork, I've invariably "met" the animal I'm currently eating, so traceability's not an issue for me. I pay a bit more for it, but that's fine. I don't buy supermarket meat, period, but not eating beef at all seems a bit extreme.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mama don't allow no hippophagy here
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 12:29 PM

Most animals slaughtered for human consumption are inspected only for a few seconds after they've been dismantled.

I worked in a massive industrial-scale slaughterhouse for a while. The place met all the health regulations of New Zealand, the UK and the US, since it was mostly killing for export. They killed a lamb every ten seconds. The inspectors could look at the carcase and the guts together, because the conveyor moved them in parallel, and if there were any obvious signs of disease (usually "sheep measles") the animal would be condemned and taken off the line. But with so many lambs going through the system, I doubt many of them got much more checking than whether they could stand and walk.

With chickens the numbers are even more extreme. My guess is the only inspection they get is at slaughter by automated image recognition systems, if that.

A horse is a big and expensive enough package of meat that its carcass probably gets looked at with a bit more care.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mama don't allow no hippophagy here
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 12:51 PM

I'm pretty sure I've eaten horse steak in France and it tasted fine, but the only meat I eat now comes from my village butcher and, like Rob, the only burgers I eat are the ones I make myself.

We're having venison tonight. I was in the butcher's shop when the deer was delivered a week or so ago by a local gamekeeper - he brought it on the back seat of his 4x4!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mama don't allow no hippophagy here
From: gnu
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 01:10 PM

Jack... poultry yes but larger animals are keept in a cooler (hung) for aging for a certain amout of time, are they not? I thought line inspectors were there to catch obvious problems which were dealt with immediately, including stopping production for "cleaning" of all equipment if necessary? I am not knowledgible about actual processes - I just assumed this was part of the process.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mama don't allow no hippophagy here
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 06:06 PM

The usual word for a slaughterhouse in NZ is "freezing works", which describes what happens to the meat. It gets chilled/frozen for export as fast as possible. Any hanging is done by the retailer, maybe months later.

The operation was an interesting exercise in workplace sociology. The meat inspectors were independent - their wages were not paid by the plant. They kept completely to themselves. I never exchanged a single word with any of them though they were only a few yards away. They were almost like some sort of religious order.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mama don't allow no hippophagy here
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 09:36 AM

My husband can be funny sometimes. He was watching that Knorr stockpot advert with Marco Pierre at a farmers' market. A huge cut of meat is held up, and my husband says (french/african accent) "'Ee ees 'olding up a beeg peece of 'orse meat!" He loves Macdonald's (yuk) but won't go there any more as he doesn't fancy 'orse burgers'.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mama don't allow no hippophagy here
From: Mr Red
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 10:39 AM

In 732 A.D. Pope Gregory III began a concerted effort to stop the ritual consumption of horse meat in pagan practice.

from there on in the increasing dislike of horse meat can be traced.
According to wikipedia - horse meat

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mama don't allow no hippophagy here
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 05:10 PM

Gregory was also Pope of a number of countries in southern Europe where horse is commonly and openly eaten and always has been. Why would that explain a taboo postdating the Reformation in a Protestant country?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mama don't allow no hippophagy here
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 04:41 AM

Interesting isn't it, why we abhor the idea of eating horses? Brits have always been tremendous meat-eaters, and have over the centuries had plenty of lamb, mutton, beef, poultry and pork to get their teeth into. Horses however have always been our 'engines' to pull the plough and farm transport etc. Perhaps too precious to slaughter for meat? Yet, when a horse came to the end of its life, it was sent to the knacker's yard and made into glue, fertiliser from bones and 'cats' meat' from its flesh. Why not eat it ourselves? Strange when you think about it. In Africa, they'll eat any kind of meat they can obtain. You wouldn't believe what they'll cook. 'Bush meat' can include dog, donkey, gorilla, monkey, caterpillars, flying ants, pupae anything with a bit of flesh on it. Horses are no more 'cute' than lambs or piglets, yet we munch and crunch on those quite happily!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mama don't allow no hippophagy here
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 04:55 AM

When I grew up specialist butchers selling horsemeat were common (they were cheap). Horse steak was quite lovely.

With the whole burger thing, I don't think the problem is as much a content of horsemeat but the 'additives' added to the beef, basically ground up (horse and pig) skin, hoof and offal to bind the fat in the beef and add some structure to the burger. Meat fine, ground up leftovers, no thanks.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mama don't allow no hippophagy here
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 05:14 AM

I agree, Peter. I like to know exactly what goes into my food. My mum used to select some beef and get the butcher to mince it for her. You saw the carcass or haunches etc hanging up and the butcher would cut to your choice. Even sausages were made in front of you, nothing was done behind the scenes. We didn't eat beefburgers in those days, but meat balls, mince and 'hash' were prepared by my mum using her small mincer screwed to the table, to use up leftovers from the Sunday roast. I still cook 'from scratch' as I don't trust ready-prepared stuff (justifiably as it turns out!) I never saw horse meat for sale, but it seems only logical to eat it. Why do we have this distaste for it?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mama don't allow no hippophagy here
From: GUEST,owl glass
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 09:17 AM

Horse meat is probably the least obnoxious ingredient in a supermarket burger.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mama don't allow no hippophagy here
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 09:36 AM

As I said above, there was no horsemeat involved. Horse DNA was found, from the additives as I described two posts up.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mama don't allow no hippophagy here
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 12:47 PM

Just read in the paper that there was (among no doubt several others) a horse-meat butchers in Stepney in living memory, with a large and enthusiastic clientele. So I'm quite wrong that we haven't ever regarded horse as an acceptable food. As you say, Peter, additives are the problem. And burgers (and other ghastly mysteriously-concocted 'foods') contain horrors we wouldn't wish to put in our mouths. Jamie Oliver tried fairly recently to make us aware of what actually goes into this stuff, especially with regard to cheap school dinners. Over in USA he was derided and faced hostility when he attempted to demonstrate just what their children were being given for school lunch. The only way forward is to prepare everything yourself from basic ingredients as I try to do. But the younger women don't know how to and haven't the time. 'Convenience foods' and the microwave are their idea of cooking.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mama don't allow no hippophagy here
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 01:47 PM

The most ominous thing I heard a foodproducer say in an interview once was : 'Nothing of the pig gets thrown away'. Sausage anyone?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Mama don't allow no hippophagy here
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 03:59 PM

As long as it's actually from a pig which has been certified as tapeworm- and disease-free, I can't see much wrong with eating any part. Pigs' trotters are supposed to be nutritious and quite tasty. And a pig's cheek was much prized as a dinner not too long ago. But additives such as chemicals, bulking, hydrogenated fats, flavour enhancers, emulsifiers etc etc are the baddies. (They used to say that only the squeal wasn't eaten!)