Turd De France

Subject: Turd De France
From: bubblyrat
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 07:14 AM

My apologies if anyone else has come up with this , but it's my new name for Lance Armstrong .I don't know if our American Cousins have the word "turd" in their vocabulary ; if not , it means something you do not want to step in on the pavement ( sidewalk).

Subject: RE: Turd De France
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 07:29 AM

Many other competitors in the Tour de France are/were, drug fuelled. He was just the tip of the iceberg. He got caught, others didn't. For some reason, there was a vendetta against Armstrong, and so he was outed. I don't condone what he has done, just wonder , cynically, why it didn't happen earlier, before an American started winning a race that the French Belgians, and Italians, regarded as their own territory!
Read this

Subject: RE: Turd De France
From: Vic Smith
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 08:04 AM

And the relevance of this to the specialist subjects of Mudcat are...... ?

Subject: RE: Turd De France
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 08:26 AM

None Vic
but here are a few tunes


The Spinning wheel
Wheels of the World
Armstrongs fancy
She is Spoke n for

Subject: RE: Turd De France
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 01:06 PM

I read the article John linked to... and 4-5 others IT linked to.

Armstrong claimed doping was only a way to "a level playing field", and it looks like he may have been right.

If 'almost' everyone among the leaders for 20+ years was doping, all we can be sure of is that Armstrong seems to have been the best overall rider... well, and the most ruthless & driven. One can't doubt his drive, training, research of the course, and overall abilities.

All I wonder now is whether Cadel Evans and Bradley Wiggins...etc... were clean, and whether pro cycling CAN keep the sport clean enough to regain its disillusioned fans.. (including me.)

Subject: RE: Turd De France
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 01:32 PM

There is likely a story here on, "big sport", "big egos", "big bucks", "big sponsors" and the "sport-drug" sectors operate to create and deflate so-called sport heros to entertain the eager masses.

I don't buy the "everyone is doing it, so don't disrespect our guy who got caught" defense.

BTW, Armstrong seems to have acted like an asshole to his former team mates, and by denying the truth and strategically staging a TV event to "kinda fess up" in an attempt to try and recover some of his image and $.

Subject: RE: Turd De France
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 01:49 PM

"Armstrong seems to have acted like an asshole .."

He said as much...called himself a 'bully'.

"I don't buy the "everyone is doing it, so don't disrespect our guy who got caught" defense."

Defense? I saw no defense... just a clarification. *I* don't respect ANY of them

"attempt to try and recover some of his image and $."

?It doesn't look like that interview will do much of either. He admitted that he doesn't expect many of those he offended or hurt to ever forgive him. The admissions may COST him $$$$, as he is now open to lawsuits for specific $$$$ he collected.

Subject: RE: Turd De France
From: gnu
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 01:57 PM

"Everyone was doing it so he levelled the playing field."

"He was more dedicated and driven."

Okay. Let's see all the other guys cut off their testicles and win more races. THAT is dedication and drive and levelling. I mean, if ya cut em both off, ya wouldn't have balancing or symmetry problems to accomodate. If Lance had lanced em both, how MANY Tours might he have won? I'd say he acted like a true sportsman by only cutting off one nut. Rather sporting of him.

Hey... it's a joke, eh? Call me nuts.

I left the net open on purpose. Yer welcome.

Subject: RE: Turd De France
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 02:16 PM

One of Lance's big defences to all the accusations thrown at him was that he'd tested more than any other cyclist but NEVER failed a drug's test.
Interestingly, the track and field superstar Marion Jones,also, never failed a drug's test!(but later admited taking drugs- and went to prison!)
We can only hope that the current tests - and testers - are of a superior nature!

Subject: RE: Turd De France
From: Bert
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 04:17 PM

Only20 years Bill?

This is from 1967

Tommy Simpson rode to his death in the Tour de France so doped that he did not know he had reached the limit of his endurance.

Subject: RE: Turd De France
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 04:24 PM

Well, it's reckoned that some sort of stimulants have been used by Tour de France riders since the race began. Over 100 yrs ago!

Subject: RE: Turd De France
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 05:27 PM

He went after the woman who first exposed him agressively, trying to "destroy" her, only because she spoke the truth. His response to that in the interview seemed very shallow and uncaring - to me and to the woman involved (I happened to catch her response on CNN). His and her account of their half hour or more telephone discussion on what he did leads me further to believe that he "was and is" truly an asshole, involved in a PR initiative (to salvage what he can).

Subject: RE: Turd De France
From: gnu
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 05:33 PM

Fair comment, ED, under the circumstances.

Subject: RE: Turd De France
From: michaelr
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 07:13 PM

The editors of my local paper said it better than I could have: We might have more sympathy if...

Subject: RE: Turd De France
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 08:03 PM

There seems to be some inability (both here and in the press)to separate his obvious flaws and despicable behavior in lying and bullying from his contention that almost everyone WAS "doing it".

Because most people are horrified at the depths of his behavior, they automatically dismiss ANY 'confession' or apology as self-serving. Lance KNOWS he got in so far over his head that he couldn't even THINK beyond winning and keeping the deception going. He even admits to Oprah that he suspects that IF he had not tried a comeback, it all 'might' have blown over and "we wouldn't be sitting here now". One can question that supposition, but he is saying that the lies that accompanied his comeback triggered a renewal of retroactive testing. (I tend to think that testing of old samples would have been done anyway, and he'd eventually have been undone.)
   I simply cannot read minds, and I will NOT assume that his halting attempt to come clean...as awkward as it is... is not genuine remorse for his stupidity. There was obviously some echoes of his drive and admitted arrogance in the interview, but we shall see in the likely court suits whether he can convince anyone that he has come to his senses.

Subject: RE: Turd De France
From: Crowhugger
Date: 18 Jan 13 - 10:56 PM

I'm quite amazed that, in this day and age, anyone with access to media believes that any elite athlete is clean. Let's face it: Technology + money to buy it = people doing stuff they ordinarily couldn't do, including hiding the fact that they do it.

While I agree it's wrong to sign on to a set of rules and then set about cunningly breaking them, I don't see the benefit in taking it all so seriously. The hand wringing is just a social pastime. If folks truly cared they'd either walk away from elite sport (pro & amateur) and boycott the sponsors. Doping is only a problem for those who destroy themselves doing it, and that is ultimately their own responsibility.

From what I've seen, sport doping is now just another aspect of the entertainment value, something to be exploited. If it ever goes away the hand wringers will find something else about which to wring hands, and talking heads will find something else about which to talk. Ms Winfrey has a network full of air time to fill and the bucks to get Armstrong on camera. Oprah knows how to profit from people's stories. She knows how to build an audience that can be delivered to advertisers for a fee. It's not about morals any more, and hasn't been for quite some time.

If "...most people are horrified at the depths of his behaviour..." I suggest that it says more about their naiveté or their idea of fun than it does about Lance Armstrong or anyone else who got caught. People are entertained by watching someone destroy himself while he's trying to prove he's best at something, be it cycling, lying, or contrition.

Maybe my view sounds cynical but I submit that if one wants find morality and decency in this world, high-level sport is not the place to go looking for them. If that IS where you choose to go looking, plan for disappointment.

Subject: RE: Turd De France
From: Bert
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 02:12 AM

I don't see that it really matters if he is remorseful or not.

The fact is that he cheated and STOLE many races by his illegal behavior. He should be treated as the thief that he is and be made to pay full restitution and be sent to prison.

Subject: RE: Turd De France
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 02:41 AM

This thread makes me think of musicians who used drugs to connect with their inner muse. Jazz musicians and heroin. Rock n Rollers and speed.
Folkies and marihuana.Acid rock. Blues and booze. Steel guitarists and coffee.
They use performance enhancing drugs and we cheer.
Are they cheating?

Subject: RE: Turd De France
From: GUEST,Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 04:41 AM

Some of us abhor drug-abuse by anyone for any reason, including musicians who 'used drugs to connect with their inner muse'. My drug, in my early musical life, was alcohol. After a gig where I thought my alcohol-fuelled playing and singing had reached new, astronomical heights of brilliance, a band-mate whose talent I held in high regard told me, "The only person who thinks you play better when you're pissed-up is you!"

I don't cheer.

Subject: RE: Turd De France
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 04:42 AM

Only in a country where sporting ability alone, can get you a college place, does this farrago have any real import.I really couldn't care less what Armstrong has done, it makes no never mind to me, or to the majority of the population.
What does intere4st me, is the reaction of people to what has happened. The juxtaposition of Armstrong making money by devious means, and Oprah making money by exploiting his downfall, is one well made.
Let him who is without sin, cast the first stone.

Subject: RE: Turd De France
From: gnu
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 05:06 AM

I think many are shocked by the continuing lies.

In my first thoughts upon hearing the media hype before the interview were... $$$ will me made and "I wonder what Robin Williams thinks?"

The second one is hard to explain if anyone doesn't know of their relationship and Williams' staunch support... hmmm... perhaps No.1 fan is the simplist explaination.

Subject: RE: Turd De France
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 05:38 AM

""Maybe my view sounds cynical but I submit that if one wants find morality and decency in this world, high-level sport is not the place to go looking for them. If that IS where you choose to go looking, plan for disappointment.""

So you see nothing worth fighting against in the certainty that, if nothing is done about it, generations of young and talented athletes will be cajoled, bullied, or just plain forced into the same activity.

If Armstrong wants to demonstrate his genuine remorse, it's very easy. All he has to do is to name the bastards who are supplying the drugs, without bargaining for a reduction in his punishment.

That, in my opinion, is the very least he owes to those who came second to whatever was fuelling his performance. The problem, of course, is that they were most likely doing the same thing less efficiently.

LET THE BAN STAND! Only by kicking out entirely all those caught, will sport ever make doping not worth the risk.

I think there is a very strong likelihood that Armstrong is headed toward a stay in prison, and quite rightly so.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Turd De France
From: gnu
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 06:03 AM

Well said, Don.

Subject: RE: Turd De France
From: Newport Boy
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 06:33 AM

I don't know how many of those posting to this thread are keen followers of cycling. Presumably those who are will have read USADA's media statement
here of 10 October and the Reasoned Decision issued later the same day.

I find it difficult to understand how many of the comments above could be made after reading those documents. To quote a couple of short paragraphs:

It took tremendous courage for the riders on the USPS Team and others to come forward and speak truthfully. It is not easy to admit your mistakes and accept your punishment. But that is what these riders have done for the good of the sport, and for the young riders who hope to one day reach their dreams without using dangerous drugs or methods.

These eleven (11) teammates of Lance Armstrong, in alphabetical order, are Frankie Andreu, Michael Barry, Tom Danielson, Tyler Hamilton, George Hincapie, Floyd Landis, Levi Leipheimer, Stephen Swart, Christian Vande Velde, Jonathan Vaughters and David Zabriskie.
...
I have personally talked with and heard these athletes' stories and firmly believe that, collectively, these athletes, if forgiven and embraced, have a chance to leave a legacy far greater for the good of the sport than anything they ever did on a bike.

Lance Armstrong was given the same opportunity to come forward and be part of the solution. He rejected it.

Instead he exercised his legal right not to contest the evidence and knowingly accepted the imposition of a ban from recognized competition for life and disqualification of his competitive results from 1998 forward.

Armstrong has refused point-blank to involve himself in any meaningful enquiry. It's not surprising that he chose to talk to an entertainer, rather than an informed interviewer.

Phil

Subject: RE: Turd De France
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 09:04 AM

All those cyclist who took drugs are villians!
The real heroes are the ones who spoke out against drugs or refused to be pressurised into taking drugs.
The ones who were ostracized! The ones whose careers were damaged!
Let the cycling authorities put these people on a pedestal and applaud their courage.
And make a big deal about it!

Subject: RE: Turd De France
From: Newport Boy
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 09:56 AM

Tunesmith - the paragraph I omiited from the quote:

The riders who participated in the USPS Team doping conspiracy and truthfully assisted have been courageous in making the choice to stop perpetuating the sporting fraud, and they have suffered greatly. In addition to the public revelations, the active riders have been suspended and disqualified appropriately in line with the rules. In some part, it would have been easier for them if it all would just go away; however, they love the sport, and they want to help young athletes have hope that they are not put in the position they were -- to face the reality that in order to climb to the heights of their sport they had to sink to the depths of dangerous cheating.

That's about as good as the cycling authorities can do. The problem is getting the media to report these aspects of the situation - the media prefer scandal. Armstrong's publicity team seems to manage it better.

Phil

Subject: RE: Turd De France
From: selby
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 10:33 AM

I do follow cycling and I accept that doping has taken place and will again in all sports but at the moment cycling is badly tarnished by Armstrong.The one thing that he should hang is head in shame for, is giving the hope to some cancer suffers who thought that morel fibre had put him on top of the world and gave them believe by his actions not necessarily his words that anything could be achieved.He has let these people down badly.

Subject: RE: Turd De France
From: Ed T
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 11:02 AM

Blast from the past, does Lance now replace Ben johnson as the most reviled sport cheater in history?

BenJohnson, formerly the most reviled drug-cheat in sports history

This was in a linked story to the 2008 story above:?

Drug-problems-worse-American-athletics-claims-British-sprinter

Subject: RE: Turd De France
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 11:20 AM

Of course Johnson race, Olympic 100m 1988, has been described as "the dirtiest race in history" with, I think, six of the eight finalists subsequentially being tainted by drug use.

Subject: RE: Turd De France
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 11:43 AM

All the sports heroes and generals are turning out to be bogus. This is a pattern that Americans build up, a phony hero worship. Petraeus, Mateo, Armstrong, Bonds, etc.

Game over

Abner Doubleday didn't know what he started.

And Ty Cobb was a racist.

Subject: RE: Turd De France
From: Crowhugger
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 01:22 PM

To me the doping scandal is about media and TV-entertainment literacy, not about sports morality. There is too much money involved to expect morality. Okay, so if you want to sue me for being a cynic you'll have to take a number.

Don, I think we do more to help youth deal with the perils of drug culture by making them aware of the pitfalls and potential duplicity than by trying to pretend that moneyed sport can be moral. I think it's naive to pretend there won't be plenty of new cheaters who'll learn from those who got caught and try not make the same mistakes.

Maybe public-school gym class sport is fairly moral; I think it should be taught as moral. But once big business enters the entertainment arena, personal best is worthless. Winning pays.

Subject: RE: Turd De France
From: GUEST,JHW(cookie on old computer)
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 04:44 PM

He was right then when he wrote 'Its not about the bike'
Sorry, but I read his books and another by one of his domestiques and stupidly I see believed in him for as quoted above 'One of Lance's big defences to all the accusations thrown at him was that he'd tested more than any other cyclist but NEVER failed a drug's test.'
The Tour is such a massive enterprise but rendered worthless year after year. Its not just Armstrong disqualified, all the effort such a waste as the entire results are meaningless.

Subject: RE: Turd De France
From: gnu
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 05:32 PM

Phil... THAT is what I meant above about the lying. Even after the evidence was "in" (11 teamMATES!), this little prick kept lying. And he made a shitload of money doing so with this big PR bullshit. Now, I will watch the 2 hour total Oprah shows (note "showS - MORE money over two days rather than ONE interview) in the next several days but, right now, I can't imagine it would change my view of his character. Or Oprah's for that matter. Never cared for her - she did a LOT of good but she made her $ doing a lot of "questionable" "interviews" = public floggings... sickened me and I had to stop watching.

Subject: RE: Turd De France
From: Crowhugger
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 09:19 PM

"That's about as good as the cycling authorities can do. The problem is getting the media to report these aspects of the situation - the media prefer scandal. Armstrong's publicity team seems to manage it better."
I agree, Phil, and I think it's because scandals deliver more audience to advertisers. That sad reality seems so self-evident to me that I'm always suprised when people expect media (not to mention greedy, self-aggrandizing overachievers a.k.a. big biz sports heroes) to behave differently. And yes, he does seem to have better publicity staff than the cycling and anti-doping authorities.

Subject: RE: Turd De France
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 05:05 AM

IF Armstrong took money for the Oprah interview, then he is a foool. Either he did it for free or donated his fee to a worthy cause, if he or his advisors have an ounce of sense.

Subject: RE: Turd De France
From: GUEST,Roger Knowles
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 05:36 AM

Can we now call him a "drug peddler" ?

Subject: RE: Turd De France
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 05:47 AM

dope peddler surely

Subject: RE: Turd De France
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 03:45 PM

After the Olympic games in the UK the effect was positive and inspiring especially to the young but something like this must make any budding sportsperson wonder if it is worth competing at all.

Subject: RE: Turd De France
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 04:49 PM

Well these drug cheats must be ostracized at every level.
The French, for ages, reckoned that there was something dodgy about Armstrong, but they, in turn, still lionize their own drug cheats.
This summer Bradley Wiggins said that he was surprised at the continued popularity of French drugs cheat Richard Virenque.
Virenque was commentating on this years Tour for French Tv.

Bradley attacks drugs cheat

Subject: RE: Turd De France
From: kendall
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 05:42 AM

How can we ever believe that any athlete has won fair and square?

We know that Babe Ruth's record is true and will anyone who breaks it will be under suspicion.

Personally, I couldn't care less who wins what. Sports are totally irrelevant to me.

Subject: RE: Turd De France
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 06:34 AM

""I think it's naive to pretend there won't be plenty of new cheaters who'll learn from those who got caught and try not make the same mistakes.

Maybe public-school gym class sport is fairly moral; I think it should be taught as moral. But once big business enters the entertainment arena, personal best is worthless. Winning pays.""

Well, there goes the neighbourhood, nothing to be done, that's how it is and nothing will change?..............Bullshit!

1). Ban the cheats who get caught, instantly and for life!
2). Ban from the next Olympics and every international meeting prior to them, any country whose team turns out three drug cheats in one meeting.
3). Ban for life, the coach of any drug cheat!
4). IOC, BOC and all other sports governing bodies make clear that there is no appeal, and all competitors sign a contract including a declaration that they waive the right to take legal action against a ban.

It is literally that easy, if the will is there to sove the problem.

You just have to make it clear that there is no way other than honest competition, if athletes in any sport want a continuing career.

The sports' governing bodies already have the power and authority to act, and I'm sure that sponsors would prefer not to be on tenterhooks, waiting for their brand to be disgraced by some "win at all costs" cheat.

For athletes, there would be the pure joy of knowing that they won (or lost) purely on merit.

If you think about it, everybody wins.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Turd De France
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 07:33 AM

I would add the clause that if anyone fails a drug test, it will assumed that they always cheated and that all monies earned from said sporting activities must be returned!
That, I feel would be a big deterrent.

Subject: RE: Turd De France
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 07:37 AM

Oh, and in the case of the UK, monies to be paid back would also include all lottery funding.
BTW, lots of people on this thread have said that, where the stakes are high, cheating will take place.
Now, it seems to me that in the British football, the stakes are very high, but so few footballers seem to fall foul of drug tests.
I think that needs to be looked in to!

Subject: RE: Turd De France
From: GUEST,SPB at work
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 10:23 AM

I looked at the Tour De France website, and the years that Armstrong was stripped of his title there was no winner - was there a dead heat for 2nd place every year, or can't the organisaers be bother to work out who came 2nd? Otherwise, its pretty pointless having the race.

Subject: RE: Turd De France
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 10:53 AM

I will never understand the hoopla. He rides a bicycle. Yippee!

Subject: RE: Turd De France
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 11:05 AM

Yes, and Robert Johnson just played the guitar and sang! Big deal!

Subject: RE: Turd De France
From: Monique
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 11:39 AM

Ranking by year at the very bottom of the page.

Subject: RE: Turd De France
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 12:26 PM

"Yes, and Robert Johnson just played the guitar and sang! Big deal!"

Yeah, pretty much.

Subject: RE: Turd De France
From: Newport Boy
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 01:27 PM

I looked at the Tour De France website, and the years that Armstrong was stripped of his title there was no winner - was there a dead heat for 2nd place every year, or can't the organisaers be bother to work out who came 2nd? Otherwise, its pretty pointless having the race.

Basically, in those years almost every cylist who came 2nd or 3rd was later implicated in drugtaking, so it was felt better to leave the record blank.

Phil