BS: ATOS kills the disabled?

Subject: BS: ATOS kills the disabled?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Feb 13 - 04:28 PM

It is reported that "East Grinstead Man 63 Dies of Kidney Failure and Starvation after being cut off benefits and declared "Fit For Work""

Story in a little more detail here: http://www.afteratos.com/?p=3033

More detail about ATOS here: http://atos.net/en-us/

And about its "healthcare" operations here: http://www.atoshealthcare.com/

I have not been able to verify the story from any significant news resource, but if true it is a shocking indictment of this government's policy and the methods chosen to deliver it.

Subject: RE: BS: ATOS kills the disabled?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Feb 13 - 04:29 PM

One further little detail. I emailed ATOS earlier today to ask them if the story is true and if they say it is not why they have not denied it, but so far no reply.

Subject: RE: BS: ATOS kills the disabled?
From: GUEST,Don Wise
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 03:44 AM

Private Eye has, over the past months, published many such stories concerning the dubious assessments produced by ATOS and the often resulting deaths, be they natural or suicides. I would suggest that you pass the East Grinstead story on to PE. To be blunt, ATOS would probably pronounce Steven Hawking fit to fill shelves at Poundland.......HMG and the Oppostion are aware of these matters and they've been aired in the Commons.

As if things weren't bad enough HMG wants to turn the screws even tighter. New, tighter, measures under discussion were supposed to be introduced on Feb. 1st. These measures propose the withdrawal of benefit if an assessor decides that a claimamnt would be able to work if they had aids such as guide dogs, prosthetic limbs, wheelchairs etc.- irrespective of whether or not the claimant has access to such aids or would be able to use them. Furthermore, if the assessor decides that adjustments could be made at the workplace to accommodate wheelchairs etc, then benefit will also be withdrawn- whether or not such changes have been made to the workplace or if a prospective employer is even remotely prepared to make the necessary changes.On top of this it is proposed to handle mental and physical health problems separately even though the two frequently occur together. These measures were scheduled to take effect from Feb. 1st- without public debate.
The DWP apparently believes that guide-dogs, for example, grow on trees or are on offer at Tesco......

Subject: RE: BS: ATOS kills the disabled?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 04:44 AM

Irony Warning !!

DONT forget that we ARE all in this together !

Subject: RE: BS: ATOS kills the disabled?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 04:56 AM

Is the Thames River full?

Subject: RE: BS: ATOS kills the disabled?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 05:13 AM

Correct, Don. I speak as a chap who's just been through it all (and got no points - inexplicable!) Anyone reading this who is facing an ATOS WCA is welcome to contact me privately and I'll tell you what's ahead for you.

Subject: RE: BS: ATOS kills the disabled?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 05:57 AM

One of our Mudcat friends is at present appealing an iniquitous ATOS assessment.
Incidentally, over 40% of the appeals against ATOS decisions, succeed.

Subject: RE: BS: ATOS kills the disabled?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 06:16 AM

Don't spoil a good arguement with bad stats.

A high proportion of successful appeals simply means that the appeals are not frivolous. The proportion of assessments that are overturned is what matters.

Subject: RE: BS: ATOS kills the disabled?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 07:47 AM

I don't really understand that post, o guest.

ATOS tell you they don't make the decision (ha bloody ha). They'll also tell you they don't have targets (in spite of their long-time notoriety as an organisation dedicated to getting people off benefits come hell or high water). They merely pass on a very negative report about you to the DWP who harbour their own "decision maker". In my case, the ATOS healthcare "professional" judged that I could walk normally at normal speed by watching me walk the five yards from the medical room to the waiting room (yes, it says that in my "report"!) -it said that, yet hardly mentioned the abundant medical evidence presented. If anyone's "in it together", it's ATOS and the DWP. Anyway, my appeal's in.

Anyone facing a WCA definitely needs to study the official WCA handbook for ATOS healthcare apparatchiks. You will find from your experience that the guidelines are frequently not adhered to either in substance or spirit. That's why so many appeals succeed.

Subject: RE: BS: ATOS kills the disabled?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 07:49 AM

The handbook I mentioned is online.

Subject: RE: BS: ATOS kills the disabled?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 08:16 AM

If, as has happened in the one instance I have personal knowledge of, the ATOS assessor gives the victim 16 points. Then when using the same set of questions,and an independant assessor a score of 62 is achieved, with the same subject. Then one is bound to suspect the payment by results that ATOS operates under, is skewing the judgement of their employees.
The higher the points, the more deserving the applicant is, of receiving their government benefits.

Subject: RE: BS: ATOS kills the disabled?
From: GUEST,SPB at work
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 08:56 AM

I would suspect that the guidance provided to assessors is to look for ways of marking down scores, ie finding every way possible of interpreting answers to show that the claimant is fit to work, wjhile ignoring the blindingly obvious evidence before their eyes.

Have there been cases where someone has been assessed as fit for work but have been stopped benefits because they are physically unable to attend interviews?

Subject: RE: BS: ATOS kills the disabled?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 11:18 AM

16 points puts you in the work-related activity group. You get the ESA for a maximum of one year and you have to attend job-related interviews. Getting into the support group (whereby you stay on benefit indefinitely and don't have to attend work-related interviews) does not depend on a points score but whether you fit one of several "descriptors". Needless to say, the descriptors are extremely difficult to match. Here they are:

1. Mobilising unaided by another person with or without a walking stick, manual wheelchair or other aid if such aid can reasonably be used.
Cannot either
(i) mobilise more than 50 metres on level ground without stopping in order to avoid significant discomfort or exhaustion
or
(ii) repeatedly mobilise 50 metres within a reasonable timescale because of significant discomfort or exhaustion.

2. Transferring from one seated position to another.
Cannot move between one seated position and another seated position located next to one another without receiving physical assistance from another person.

3. Reaching.
Cannot raise either arm as if to put something in the top pocket of a coat or jacket.

4. Picking up and moving or transferring by the use of the upper body and arms (excluding standing, sitting, bending or kneeling and all other activities specified in this Schedule).
Cannot pick up and move a 0.5 litre carton full of liquid.

5. Manual dexterity.
Cannot either:
(a) press a button, such as a telephone keypad or;
(b) turn the pages of a book
with either hand.

6. Making self understood through speaking, writing, typing, or other means normally used.
Cannot convey a simple message, such as the presence of a hazard.

7. Understanding communication by hearing, lip reading, reading 16 point print or using any aid if reasonably used.
Cannot understand a simple message due to sensory impairment, such as the location of a fire escape.

8. Absence or loss of control over extensive evacuation of the bowel and/or bladder, other than enuresis (bed-wetting) despite the presence of any aids or adaptations normally used.
(a) At least once a week experiences
(i) loss of control leading to extensive evacuation of the bowel and/or voiding of the bladder; or
(ii) substantial leakage of the contents of a collecting device;
sufficient to require cleaning and a change in clothing.

9. Learning tasks.
(a) Cannot learn how to complete a simple task, such as setting an alarm clock, due to cognitive impairment or mental disorder.

10. Awareness of everyday hazards (such as boiling water or sharp objects).
(a) Reduced awareness of everyday hazards leads to a significant risk of:
(i) injury to self or others; or
(ii) damage to property or possessions,
such that they require supervision for the majority of the time to maintain safety.

11. Initiating and completing personal action (which means planning, organisation, problem solving, prioritising or switching tasks).
Cannot, due to impaired mental function, reliably initiate or complete at least 2 sequential personal actions.

12. Coping with change
(a) Cannot cope with any change, due to cognitive impairment or mental disorder, to the extent that day to day life cannot be managed.

13. Coping with social engagement due to cognitive impairment or mental disorder
Engagement in social contact is always precluded due to difficulty relating to others or significant distress experienced by the individual.

14. Appropriateness of behaviour with other people, due to cognitive impairment or mental disorder
Has, on a daily basis, uncontrollable episodes of aggressive or disinhibited behaviour that would be unreasonable in any workplace.

15. Conveying food or drink to the mouth.
(a) Cannot convey food or drink to the claimant's own mouth without receiving physical assistance from someone else;
(b) Cannot convey food or drink to the claimant's own mouth without repeatedly stopping, experiencing breathlessness or severe discomfort;
(c) Cannot convey food or drink to the claimant's own mouth without receiving regular prompting given by someone else in the claimant's physical presence; or
(d) Owing to a severe disorder of mood or behaviour, fails to
convey food or drink to the claimant's own mouth without receiving —
(i) physical assistance from someone else; or
(ii) regular prompting given by someone else in the claimant's presence.

16. Chewing or swallowing food or drink
(a) Cannot chew or swallow food or drink;
(b) Cannot chew or swallow food or drink without repeatedly stopping, experiencing breathlessness or severe discomfort;
(c) Cannot chew or swallow food or drink without repeatedly receiving regular prompting given by someone else in the claimant's presence; or
(d) Owing to a severe disorder of mood or behaviour, fails to—
(i) chew or swallow food or drink; or
(ii) chew or swallow food or drink without regular prompting given by another person in the physical presence of the claimant.

Subject: RE: BS: ATOS kills the disabled?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 11:23 AM

THE WCA Handbook I referred to (as I said, it's online) expands on the interpretation of the above. If it wasn't so stupidly tragic it would be bloody hilarious.

Subject: RE: BS: ATOS kills the disabled?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 02:34 PM

The Atos Song

https://soundcloud.com/denise_whittle/atos-song

ATOS song

ATOS ATOS ATOS!
work for the scummy super rich
On the side of the boss
They say government money - such an easy touch!
Certainly is for ATOS
Who've already got too much!

Help for the Victims! Comedy relief!
Its all a bloody joke in this land of the thief
They steal self respect
victimise the weak
ATOS will squeeze till they hear the pips squeak

Have you got a shred of confidence
A bit of self respect
ATOS should have got that off you
What an act of neglect!
Can you walk a few steps? Get your coat and hat
Then you're fit for work, so cut out the chat...

You really don't need a minimum wage
Live with your Mum , til you're middle aged
We've got 90% of money in the hands of the wealthy
ATOS will any stop any dibs going to the unhealthy

Paralympic hero, or amputee squaddy
You're there to be swindled by this august body
Its called Benefit reform, along tory lines
What Ian MacGregor did for the mines!

words and music by Alan Whittle copyright 26 February 2013 15.20

Subject: RE: BS: ATOS kills the disabled?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 03:32 PM

:-) Nice one, Al!

Subject: RE: BS: ATOS kills the disabled?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 04:12 PM

Some nice rhymes in there Al. Get it up on youtube while it's hot. It might go viral.

Subject: RE: BS: ATOS kills the disabled?
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 10:27 PM

fyi its not a proper copywrite until it is time stamped recorded at a copywrite office... Unless they have a new 24/7 on line service, if so let me know.

Subject: RE: BS: ATOS kills the disabled?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Feb 13 - 10:44 PM

Donuel, you are 100% wrong. Berne Convention.

Subject: RE: BS: ATOS kills the disabled?
From: GUEST,Murcutio
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 05:37 AM

I see Queen Mab hath been with you.

She gallops night by night... O'er lawyers' fingers, who straight dream on fees...

And then dreams he of smelling out a suit......

This is that very Mab That plats the manes of horses in the night And bakes the elflocks in foul sluttish hairs, Which once untangled much misfortune bodes.


Have fun Mr. Solicitor General

Subject: RE: BS: ATOS kills the disabled?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 07:46 AM

Gee, a GUEST unable to spell his name correctly. What a surprise.

Subject: RE: BS: ATOS kills the disabled?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 08:08 AM

oh well - the copywright doesn't matter. can't give the stuff away!

I'm sure somewhere, there's Childe Ballad in 14/19 rhythm that makes all the arguments in the song in a more tasteful agreeable fashion.

Subject: RE: BS: ATOS kills the disabled?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 10:27 AM

And apart from the copywrite and the copywright, there's always the copyright too.

Subject: RE: BS: ATOS kills the disabled?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 12:38 PM

Al, get the song onto YouTube. Be buggered the copyright stuff. It's topical. Has a shelf life of a few months, tops. Get it out where folks can hear it. It could do some good in the UK.

Oh, yeah: throw the ATOS bastards in the Thames if it isn't full yet. Cold bath would do them good. They could self-diagnose: body temp down to 92 degrees F; lips purple; cap refill 58 seconds; pulse weak; resps at 3/min; therefore, patient living and fit for work. Nexttttt . . .

Subject: RE: BS: ATOS kills the disabled?
From: GUEST,Don Wise
Date: 28 Feb 13 - 10:41 AM

What doesn't help here are the government attempts to privatise the Remploy factories (often the only employment opportunity for the disabled). Some have been sold- and the workforce reduced. In other cases, although the particular factories have full order books and customers world wide, the government wants to close them because no-one wants to buy them (or not at the price the government is asking).A government survey of 1000 ex-Remploy workers revealed that 240 were doing some sort of training and 180 were working, whereby the work is often temporary and/or part-time. Over 1500 Remploy workers have been thrown on the dole so far.

Subject: RE: BS: ATOS kills the disabled?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Feb 13 - 01:36 PM

Not sure how to do the Youtube thing. did some stuff tears ago with a cheap camera, but it looked like shit and I don't know how to do that clever stuff. If anyone can help - feel free. Like Bruce said - I don't give a shit about copywright.

Subject: RE: BS: ATOS kills the disabled?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Feb 13 - 01:41 PM

Come on you pointy heads! Someone help Al out here - a nice video to go with his song.

Subject: RE: BS: ATOS kills the disabled?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Feb 13 - 01:48 PM

I wish I could help, Al. Get in touch with Dan (old dude). He's a whiz and maybe he's over his buggered up ribs.

Subject: RE: BS: ATOS kills the disabled?
From: bfdk
Date: 28 Feb 13 - 01:57 PM

Correction: The person John was referring to above didn't get 16 points from ATOS, but a 'whopping' 6.. An unbiased assessment made by the CAB a few days later gave the same person the 62 points mentioned.

Subject: RE: BS: ATOS kills the disabled?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 28 Feb 13 - 03:15 PM

I applied for Disability Living Allowance (RA finally go the better of me after 6+ years) in late October, early November 2011. This was on the advice of my GP after I rejected suggestion of medical retirement. So it was official, i was on downhill slide with the disease.

The DWP kept shuffling around, requesting reports from GP, and then RA consultant and kept dithering util the April 2012 date that ATOS would be brought into this area for dealing with DLA apps.

ATOS assessor, kept asking me why I was being assessed as if I already had a job? I told him that I had applied for DLA to assist with my daily care and mobility needs which had increased exponentially in the last 12 months. He just didn't seem to get it.

After abut 45 minutes of answering repeated questions asked in different ways and evidencing some pointless physical capabilities (all coming from a computer survey which was suspiciously similar to the PIP questionnaire I had seen on line and with answers entered in), I was dismissed with the information that he (the assessor) does not make the decision and that if I am not satisfied with the outcome/award when the report is sent to me that I can appeal within 40 days.

Despite being unable to walk more than 8o yards on a good day and less than 20 on a bad day, I received no mobility. I was awarded lowest care component because I often cannot dress, groom or prepare meals without assistance.

I did not appeal. By the time the award report arrived I was so ill and so hopped up on pain killers, I just could not face such an ordeal.

The thing which most annoys me is that assessor repeatedly asking me why I was applying for DLA if I already had a job. What the hell does my having a job got to do with the fact that it costs me more to get to and from work and to live a normal life than it does people who don't have special needs.

When it comes time to be assessed again in October 2013, I may just give it a miss and lose the little benefit I am getting. I doublt it would be awarded anyway. Besides, by that time, the DWP might be charging us for the assessment.

Subject: RE: BS: ATOS kills the disabled?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Feb 13 - 03:37 PM

Where are the fucking unions, and the H&S reps who should be fighting the oppressors?

Subject: RE: BS: ATOS kills the disabled?
From: Penny S.
Date: 28 Feb 13 - 05:15 PM

You know what they want.

Us all to FOAD.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: ATOS kills the disabled?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 04:18 AM

To be fair to Richard, the problem may not be legal.

What many people do not appreciate is that the forms for this sort of thing have to be filled out in a certain way. Its the sort of case our Arthritis Support Group in Mansfield used to help 'civilians' out with.

My advice to VT would be this - re-apply on the grounds of changed circumstances. Take your forms off to the Citizens Advice Bureau, and they will put you in touch with someone who understands fully what the forms are trying (in a sub-literate sort of way) to establish.

Subject: RE: BS: ATOS kills the disabled?
From: GUEST,SPB at work
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 06:13 AM

The voluntary sector has had well established advocacy services, but gaining access to advocacy is getting harder - some services have had their funding drastically cut, others have become so overwhelmed, particularly in disability advice organisations they are metaphorically at or near bursting point.

My suggestion would be, if one hasn't done so already, is to undertake training and get few years casework experience under your belt before going to assessments in order to be better represented.