Tech: Surge protectors

Subject: Tech: Surge protectors
From: gnu
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 05:30 PM

Went to Future Shit with a web only purchase skew #. Buddy says he is gonna check store stock. Finds one for $40 and says $20. I trust him, happy to get one cheaper. Shoulda read the lit in the box before I bought it. My app is less than 30' of wire from the main entrance panel. No go. Went back and ordered the right one. 2/3 the regular $ of the one on the shelf.

It occurred to me that MOST people don't read the instructions supplied with regard to installing surge protectors (and a LOT of other stuff). Just plug it in, right? WRONG BIG TIME! Your PC can fry and that $HUGE insurance policy is void where prohibited by stupidity.

Be careful... read the "directions". ESPECIALLY the safety stuff.

Yer welcome. Don't thank me. "We're all in this together."... Red Green.

Subject: RE: Tech: Surge protectors
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 10:18 PM

OK, waitaminute, you lost me, gnu. What's the deal with this surge protector? Why CAN'T you just plug the surge protector into the wall, and the computer into the surge protector?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Tech: Surge protectors
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 10:29 PM

Lots of surge protectors offer cash for damaged computers or electronics if you use their surge protectors and a surge gets past one to your delicate equipment. I read labels, but it has been a while since I bought a surge protector. I suppose there is small print. Is that what you're getting at, gnu?

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: Surge protectors
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 11:31 PM

All I've ever done, like Joe, is plug it in. I can't remember any warnings about "less than 30 feet" or stuff like that. Never had any problems. Maybe I've been lucky, or perhaps our electricity supplies work differently here.

Subject: RE: Tech: Surge protectors
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 03:47 AM

Surge protector thinking comes in two kinds.

You can get a little box that plugs into a receptacle that you then plug power cords into. The protection is in the box at the wall receptacle.

You can get a cord with a protector at the output end of what amounts to an extension cord, and the protection is at the other end where you connect the device.

If the surge is expected to be from something on the other side of the wall, the box at the wall receptacle should prevent it from getting into any of the cords you plug into the box, but too long a cord between the protector and anything you plug into it can allow "induced surges" between the protector and the device you want protected, or surges produced by one of the plugged-ins to damage another one on the same "protected cord."

If a surge might be caused by the thing(s) you plug in at the other end of a longer cord, having the protection as close as possible to the thing you want to protect may give a quicker clamp-down, but too long a distance to a good grounding point may give it nowhere to dump the bump.

The kind that give "protection at the wall" are fairly rare here, and mostly limited to ones intended to be used with small single devices.

The ones that have a cord with the protection switching at the output end, at least the ones I've found here, seldom state a length/distance limit. The protection should be good for the length of cord they come with, but they do assume you won't plug an extension cord between the protector and the device or use an extension cord between the wall and the "protector." (They may or may not state that assumption, but it's likely to be in the fine print somewhere that gives all of the weasel-out conditions of the guarantee. You can read the fine print only if you ask them before you need to know them all.)

An additional "escape clause" they have generally is due to the fact that the protection wears out eventually, usually more affected by how many times the protection trips but also just by continual use.

The most common wear-out failure is just that the device trips and the reset won't turn it back on, but there is a decline in the size of surges that can be blocked (and/or the size of surge that would trip them) even if there's never been a surge big enough to actually shut it off. Some kinds don't have a breaker with reset button/switch, so they either just don't turn themselves back on, or they start to trip much more frequently on smaller transients.

gnu has to worry about this kind of stuff since his arc welder and the 50 HP irrigation pump are on the same protector as his computer, but for most of us its more bother than its worth. We just buy one that "looks good" and learn to say "shit happens."

While the "guarantees" on the package can be extravagent, few of them ever pay off. That likely is because we don't save the packaging and don't have any idea who to complain to when something happens - or we have so many packages we can't tell which one the device that failed came in.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Surge protectors
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 06:32 AM

Some surge protectors are designed to be sacrificial. When they protect they die. They are usually cheap, and cheerful.

There is a class of silicon fuse that when the current exceeds the threshold they go high impedance and will restore if the power is removed and given a little time.

But surge protectors may be fast fuses with parallel knee diodes that go high current when the voltage exceeds the knee. The fuse blows and is not necessarily replaceable.

As my mum used to say "penny plain, twopence coloured". You get what you pays for.

One problem to look out for is the telephone connection. When the modem is internal (56K reember them?). A lightening strike may hit either or both lines. So any outside wires can fry the equipment it is connected to. My phone lines are buried and I have a surge protector. Safe as er um ............
Then one day the 3 phase dropped a neutral and the phase I was on gave me nearer 400 volts, neighbours definitely got all 440 because it fried their clocks (etc). My DECT phone stopped working, it overheated the transformer and melted the heat fuse. I was lucky. I only put the surge protector on the PC and video recorder.

Subject: RE: Tech: Surge protectors
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 07:35 AM

While the "guarantees" on the package can be extravagent, few of them ever pay off. That likely is because we don't save the packaging and don't have any idea who to complain to when something happens - or we have so many packages we can't tell which one the device that failed came in.

The other thing shops do in my experience is to print the receipts with ink that fades, so by the time anything goes wrong, even if you've saved the receipt you can't read stuff like the date. I'm sure this is intentional. That's an advantage of shopping online, you get an email with the important stuff on it. Though of course to be safe you'd need to print it and store it safely - and then you are likely enough to find the seller isn't reachable any more, or liv in Kazakstan or somewhere...

Subject: RE: Tech: Surge protectors
From: pavane
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 01:38 PM

Major problem recently. I put a surge protector on the LED security light down in the shed (off the house supply), after a previous security light blew.

While I was away, the house power tripped out, and I had to diagnose the problem from 200 miles away. Managed to get power back to part of the house, but it was only when I got home that I found the power was being tripped out by the faied surge protector - must have gone short circuit.

Subject: RE: Tech: Surge protectors
From: gnu
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 04:09 PM

Ahhhh... "My app is less than 30' of wire from the main entrance panel" The safety notes say "DO NOT install... if less than 30' of wire from the main entrance panel".

I could go into why in detail because I saw the "reason" happen at 2AM at Wabush, Labrador airport when the potential on a feed of about 2000' in length built up high enough to jump the secondary protection and FRY $64,000 worth of circuit boards on the airfield navaids quip.

Simply put, some girls need a long wire or they don't blow a fuse.

An APC 7-Outlet Power Saving Surge Protector (P7GB) will work for me. It's $about $29.

The Rocketfish at $40 (as I said, buddy gave it to me for $20) will not.

Matter of fact, the main entrance panel in just about every house fed by overhead power cables is at a corner. I would guess at least 50% of these types of surge suppressors are not worth a crap to the people who have them. They simply "DO NOT", as the lit states, protect a PC.

Subject: RE: Tech: Surge protectors
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 06:13 PM

Your postings bring me great pleasure, Mr. GNU.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

the world was never meant for someone as innocent as you

Subject: RE: Tech: Surge protectors
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 06:47 PM

We've had two lightning strikes on the telephone line leading to our house in the last ten years. The first one destroyed my dial-up modem (it was many moons ago), blew the kitchen phone, base unit included, clean off the wall in a cloud of black smoke and almost set the bedroom on fire as the phone extension cable in there underwent complete immolation. It was 6pm on Christmas evening and there was just the one lighting bolt. It took BT 10 days to reconnect us and we didn't have mobile phones in those days (we rapidly became converts). The second simply destroyed the kitchen phone. That was during a severe storm and I'd disconnected the computer and the other phone extensions as a precaution (lucky me). Everything electronic in the house that plugs in is now protected by sundry surge protectors. Do they work? I haven't a clue!

Subject: RE: Tech: Surge protectors
From: gnu
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 09:55 PM

Gargoyle... many of your posts leave me wondering what the fuck you are on about. Or what you are on. Seems to me you just attacked me on a personal level and, since I am so naïve, as you indicate, that I can't figure out why, my only response is... fuck off you ignorant asshole. What the fuck is your problem!... that ain't a question, asshole. That's a fuck you.

Subject: RE: Tech: Surge protectors
From: EBarnacle
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 11:22 PM

Whenevef I go out and use my computer, I install my small Belkin surge protector. As mentioned above, I don't know whether it works but it makes me feel more secure. It also lets me plug in in places like Barnes and Noble where there are always too few outlets.

Subject: RE: Tech: Surge protectors
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 11:59 PM

Some utilities companies will install a whole-house surge protector at your circuit breaker box. I wonder how well one of those would work, and I wonder if the surge from the refrigerator would affect my computer nonetheless.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Tech: Surge protectors
From: gnu
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 06:46 AM

I always figured a PC should be on it's own circuit if possible. I have dedicated circuits for my PC and for each air conditioner.

Subject: RE: Tech: Surge protectors
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 02:48 PM

I had a TV set some years (actually decades) back with an "instant on" feature that used a small diode across the On/Off switch to let half wave power bypass the switch to keep the tube filaments "warm."

On four or five occasions, the TV mysteriously "turned itself on" and couldn't be turned off, because an insignificant transient on the power line "burnt out" the diode causing it to fail to a short circuit.

When I finally managed to get a circuit diagram (extortion, threats, and very rude behavior required) from the manufacturer that allowed even a minimal look at what was needed, simple replacement of the diode they used with one with adequate current and PRV specs ($0.97 from Radio Shack instead of the $28.15** for the "specified part" from the manufacturer) completely solved the problem.

** The seller offered to fix it, but wanted part cost+markup plus $50 "labor" charge. (Replacement did require $0.03 worth of solder that they didn't itemize separately.)

Maybe that's when I began to be a real cynic about commercial products "Made to Sell" with no consideration about being "Made to Use."

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Surge protectors
From: gnu
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 07:21 AM

Ain't THAT the truth, JiK. I just changed out a stove component by going to the website and looking up the wiring diagram/part number and ordering one. Initially, I called a repair company about 200m from me. I was shocked that the receptionist said, "No, we'd have to look at it first to make sure we order the right part." Cost? $55 to look at it plus a service call for installation but that would be reduced to $40. $95 when all I wanted was to order a part? UnREAL! A lot of people would have paid because they just have never done something similar which really sucks when consider someone like an elderly lady being ripped off so cruelly.

Oh... I got the part thru another company.

Subject: RE: Tech: Surge protectors
From: Mr Red
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 07:33 AM

"power was being tripped out by the faied surge protector - must have gone short circuit. "

sopunds a bit sacrificial, Pavane.

Subject: RE: Tech: Surge protectors
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 02:04 PM

Gnu, you are certainly right about reading the instructions.

Just thought I'd mention that i don't use surge protectors. I buy my surge protection from the electric utility, paying a few bucks every month.

Subject: RE: Tech: Surge protectors
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 02:35 PM

The other thing shops do in my experience is to print the receipts with ink that fades, ...

One of the things I got in the habit of doing when I got the equipment to do it is scanning all significant receipts so that I have a permanent copy. The scan never fades.

Another class of things with "disappearing ink" that can leave you without records includes the "self carbons" that some checkbooks leave as your only record. (Some banks that use these make it very difficult to get a copy of their copy, and with "echecks" they often don't have a record either.)

I've never had a seller refuse to accept a print from the scan instead of an "original" even though some say in their fine print that you must have the original. Most will do it just because they like to keep a good customer and I'm nice (if they do what I ask for).

In one or two cases I've had to say something like the (US) "Federal Paper Reduction Act Requires that a true scan of documents be accepted as just as valid as the original."

While I don't actually know that's an accurate quote, they've always bought it.

(Bullshit is a marketable product, if you're good enough at it.)

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Surge protectors
From: gnu
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 12:58 PM

I write in ink on the receipt the st9ore, store number, date and time, product, product model/number, price, warranty and, I sign it. Then I photocopy it and scan it.

As for bullshit, I dare say I compare and possibly exceed many due to my Irish charm.

Subject: RE: Tech: Surge protectors
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 01:44 PM

But gnu, is your Irish charm the shillelagh, two-handed broadsword, or the "nobody likes to argue with a drunken Irishman" variety.

John