BS: UK political parties for oblivion?

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 04:39 PM

Sleep tight!

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Musket
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 01:45 PM

Is plutocrat designed as an insult? Most people, having worked their bollocks off to have a comfortable retirement would say "job done" if they managed that position..

Left Unity? Howsabout Left....... my flat cap with my lamp and tallies when I left the pit? (I recall that your mask slipped once on another thread and questioned whether a mining engineer is "professional.") You see, some pigs being more equal than others fits well with your "I'm a professional, therefore you're not" attitude. As I said, your armchair socialism is somewhat amusing at times. All equal, eh brother?

No, I'm not a plutocrat. I looked it up just to be sure and it doesn't apply I'm afraid. Might have been in a small way before I sold up and buggered off, but no. I'm not a plutocrat. I've just taken a new challenge and as of next week, I can be despised under another title, as over paid senior public sector. Just think, you can sit next to Jeremy Hunt and lambast me. There's a thought....

zzzzzzzz

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 11:09 AM

If you don't like the People's Assembly, how about Left Unity? Or is that off your radar too, plutocrat?

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 10:23 AM

Im a fool alright. A fool for humouring your original post. I did say that I read The Independent so not really needing enlightening, even if you break your professional code and not bother charging me for doing so.

I am fully aware of Mr Whittam Smith's crusade. Just didn't want to miss the opportunity to have a laugh. Your armchair socialism can be amusing at times.

Ok, back to tartan matters.   I was out by 200 years and I promise to take a loaded gun into the ante room this very second.   

Regarding giving people choice. You will find that the reason the vote was allowed was more to do with the Westlothian problem and its effect on England rather than Cameron & co having any regard for the wishes of Scottish voters. After all, how many tory votes are there in Scotland.   

Interesting that contributers above waffle on about student fees etc when such things only got through due to Scottish MP votes. When Bonaparte mentioned perfidious Albion, he wasn't wrong. Give or take 400 miles or so.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 09:12 AM

Musket you are a fool. You clearly had no idea what the People's Assembly was. I enlightened you. You should thank me.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 06:08 AM

"but when your rationale is an historic border set up by the Romans and set aside 500 ish years ago,"

Well of course the border wasn't set up by the Romans and neither was it set aside 500 years ago. The Scottish and English kingdoms were formed into a single kingdom just over 300 years ago. That is by the by though as the vast majority of the Scottish people still regard themselves as a national people and regard Scotland as a distinct country within the union. The border as such still exists. Some wish to remain in the union - others wish to end it. It is a democratic choice. As for me being logged out of most people's thinking that is just silly. The vast majority of Scots were in favour of the referendum. None of the major British political parties seek to deny the Scots the democratic choice as to what they want. It is you who is totally out of kilter.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 05:24 AM

I know it is. And once I can get my bloody phone to retain cookies all will be well. it has extra security features enabled to allow seeing my secure emails, save me taking the work laptop around with me.

Instead it is the difference between being sat in the study or anywhere else in the world as to whether I am signed in or not.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 04:55 AM

Signing as a GUEST is more or less an open invitation to impersonators using the same name.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 04:05 AM

Are you like me? Only read The Indescribablyboring because they aren't charging for their phone app?

Here, if The Financial Times was free, would you spout a different perspective?

Just a thought.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 03:52 AM

Try to keep up whoever you were.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/how-the-peoples-assembly-can-challenge-our-suffocating-political-consensus--and-why-

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 03:41 AM

Which dozy bugger keeps posting a link to yahoo in my name?

I suppose any solicitor could explain the difference between following orders and accepting an invitation to articulate and advocate a stance you may not agree with. After all, it is the job of a solicitor to do do. Likewise ATOS signed a contract to do this work.

Still, they seem to veer between incompetency and callousness so fulfilling the needs of ministers. ..

Sorry, can't ignore it. People's assembly? The older you get the dafter your posts. Shoot me before I get there. What's in it for me? Why would I vote for it? Or any other sane person for that matter.

Silly sod

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 11:49 PM

Perhaps "the People's Assembly" will provide a valid alternative to present Labour ("conservative-lite") party.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 07:09 PM

Racist cunt Scameron is. Cuntservatives have for decades prevented the building of social housing.

Musket or whoever you were before going into hiding, a gun with a mind can be guilty of murder, and "Befehl ist Befehl" aka "Only following orders" is not a defence - or at least it was not at Nuremberg.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 06:17 PM

" I see an ugly bugger when I shave, but an ugly bugger who is at peace with himself. And others."

Only one third right as usual.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 03:58 PM

Would Scottish independence mean the rest of us would be rid of Danny Alexander?

Looking at a map, the island looks a very unwieldy shape for a country. Dividing it more or less at the border looks pretty sensible. The advantantages to Scotland of the Union seem pretty shaky. Scandinavia seems to work pretty well with amicable political separation between the countries concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 03:57 PM

Fair comment Bridge. But is a gun a murderer?

The ATOS protocols and policies are to an agenda contracted on behalf of ministers. Oblivion is perhaps aspirational in the eyes of many? The fault you can lay firmly at the door of ATOS is the inability to distinguish between people made vulnerable through medical circumstances and those for whom benefits are a given. The latter is a smaller number than ministers and newspaper editors think..

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 02:10 PM

Regrettably the contributors to the present government seem to have as little intention of serving the common good or "interest of all" (rather lining the pockets of the rich and those charging interest) as they have devotion to the truth - compare Danny Alexander's words on ATOS before the election with those now - despite ATOS killing steadily increasing numbers of people.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Musket sas cookie
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 02:02 PM

Even your cookie refuses to accept your bloody views... You have been logged out of most peoples' thinking since showing your true colours, and they ain't pink. I see an ugly bugger when I shave, but an ugly bugger who is at peace with himself. And others.

Of course any part of any country can look for self determination. I originate from an enclave within The People's Republic of Bolsover, but when your rationale is an historic border set up by the Romans and set aside 500 ish years ago, it is a bit silly saying the reasons for drawing the line in the sand are based on 21st century economics and politics. There are many who don't feel enfranchised by a government. We haven't ever had a Tory MP where I come from (or councillor for that matter) and the part of Surrey Mrs Musket comes from would set fire to any Labour would be knocking on their door.

Is self determination about realising the needs of a Morningside lunching lady or a crackwhore in a Glasgow tenement? Or perish the thought, may there be the prospect of debate as to how to govern the place in the interest of all?

I'm not for stopping it, in fact the sums appear to me that the city props up Scotland, North Derbyshire and Bolsover, much to the disgust of our tame beast. After all, it's years since I was selling machinery into Ravenscraig, and even the shale shakers going into Aberdeen seem to be from USA straight to ffshore, financially speaking. No, I'll be better off, thanks.

Mind you, as I interfere in The NHS these days, the Scottish principle is far more to my liking, but the model fals apart the further from Edinburgh you go, sadly.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 11:21 AM

Sorry John, that post was mine, I seem to be logged out most of the time.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 07:40 AM

A bit hypocritical from a govt which has more or less ignored the crimes of the financial institutions?

It makes sense to regulate immigration, but disguises the real problem which is systemic.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 06:42 AM

"I feel Th UK should have a say in things that affect The UK and find it to be arrogant in the extreme for a few counties to try and declare UDI"

The above statement, alongside the other attitudes shown, does not equate with the idea that the people of Scotland should have self determination. There would be no worth in a union where continued membership of the said union was forced on one people by the opinions of the other people in the said union. That is accepted within the UK despite your apparent reluctance.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 06:22 AM

How do you manage when shaving in the morning Ian?

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 06:18 AM

Musket does.
Actually
Which makes your blinkered stance all the more laughable.

Whether you want Boris Johnson or whether I want Alex Salmond is irrelevant. They both give good entertainment value. Thing is, only one of them is leading a whole set of counties on an adventure that is based on tradition and false hope rather than pragmatism.

As even Salmond wants defence to remain British, it is rather funny that Scotland will stop paying for Trident if the English, Welsh and Northern Irish people vote to get rid of it. Same as currency and economy. Unless you start a barter system, you either have to come up with a Micky McMouse currency or be linked to either Westminster or Frankfurt decisions. Decisions made in the interest of their voters.

Rather than dismiss the genuine concerns of many both sides of the border, why not launch your UDI manifesto on a website where more than just piss takers such as me will scrutinise them?

Oh and Akenaton. .. One advantage of Mudcat BS is that although I would turn my back on you in the pub or find a more respectable drinking pit, this forum is where humans and associated creatures can debate without the queasy unclean feeling you get when confronted with a bigot in the real world.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 05:21 AM

"I don`t think free BMW`s for all would be possible for some time!"

Though that holds for both choices. We ain't gonna get BMWs by staying within the union either!

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 24 Mar 13 - 05:17 AM

"Ah well, like Alan said, that's life. If it's so, good luck to Scots"

Mind though Jack what I was referring to was not the outcome of the said referendum. It was just the principle that the Scots, as do everyone else, have the right to self determination. They have the right to choose. The vast bulk of Scots hold to that principle as does the UK govt and all the major political parties. Musket doesn't - well that's life!

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 12:33 PM

All countries have national debts and Scotland will be no exception. However being independent, it would be more able to manage this. With it's proper share of oil and gas revenues, large exports of food and drink, no Trident, a choice whether to fight in illegal wars or not a better GDP rating than the UK ... the old argument that we're too poor has been demolished and accepted even by Cameron and Darling. They NO attack is based on fear, scare mongering and negativity. Free BMWs for all might not be on the cards but crawling after Cameron or Farage is not on. Imagine even having Boris Johnson for PM?

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 09:47 AM

Apologies Richard - I miscounted...

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 09:46 AM

I think you miscount, Richard.

Strictly speaking there aren't any significant UK parties already. All the main ones restrict themselves to the island Great Britain. If Scotland goes that would presumably change to Southern Britain, in the "United Kingdom of Northern Ireland and Southern Britain".

I'm pretty unsure where I stand on Scottish Independence. If I was in Scitland I'd certainly be for it, but it's not nice to think of living in a country likely to be permanently dominated by the South-East corner of England. And in time ever more so, as the North goes the same way as Scotland sooner or later...

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 09:21 AM

100

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 08:20 AM

Regarding an independent Scotland, here is something worth considering providing Parliament has the determination to implement it. The National Debt of the U.K.(as of the last quarter of 2012)is £1347 billion. Since the total population of the U.K.(that is from the Orkneys and Shetland to the Channel Islands) is, say, 65 million then that figure equates to a debt of £20,700 for every man, woman and child. Since the population of Scotland is 5 million at least then the first thing Alex Salmond would inherit, come a yes vote, is a national debt of £105 billion. I don`t think free BMW`s for all would be possible for some time!

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 07:52 AM

Thanks, Sugarfoot Jack, I am not a member of the SNP but believe in an independent Scotland to choose its own feckless tosspots or not as the case maybe. At least we'll have the opportunity.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 07:16 AM

There you are Ian, an object lesson on how to conduct yourself in debate.

Will it do any good?....I doubt it,as your main purpose here seems to be trying, unsuccessfully, to "wind people up".

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Stu
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 07:10 AM

"Different countries, geographical units if you like, have different takes on matters and Scotland has shown it has progressive ideas it cannot put into practice as it cannot control its purse strings."

Of course, and I'm not arguing against a referendum or self-determination (I'm solidly in favour of it) but I still don't want the Scots to leave the union, as I wouldn't the Welsh. If Scotland leave we'll be at the mercy of the south-easters until the year dot. Mind you, dump Trident and I'll be happy. As for electing our own government, it won't be an English government, it will still be the government of the United Kingdom.

Salmond is a little Scotlander in the same way so many English politicians are little Englanders. He's hardly a progressive, sucking up to Murdoch like a buttock-loving remora and disappearing up the arse of the execrable bully Donald Trump, whom he feted when Trump was trying build a golf resort for poshos that eventually trashed a coastline and whose lackeys still pursue appalling campaigns of intimidation against the local people.

Ah well, like Alan said, that's life. If it's so, good luck to Scots, I don't really blame them. Who want's to be ruled by the feckless tosspots we have in at the moment at Westminster. At least you'll be ruled by your own feckless tosspots.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 06:02 AM

Scotland is a distinct nation and a constituent part of the UK and not a shire of a Greater England. There is just no comparison with North Lincolnshire or any other 'parish' as you put it. You may not like the fact that the Scots can determine their own future but there you go - that is life. I won't descend to the childish name calling!

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 05:51 AM

Then perhaps Salmond will give some overseas aid to North Lincolnshire to allow us to try a bit of self determination? Or any other parish for that matter.

Swapping deck chairs on The Titanic when you could be building lifeboats isn't about the outcome. It's about whether it was a good idea in the first place.

The boat shaped lump of concrete in Leith swallows enough of Scottish tax as it is, before actually doing anything..

If we keep Trident Scotland will still pay a fair share you prat. Defence isn't up for grabs ifi read the document correctly.

Out of interest I don't have a view either way. My view is a stage back. People will be asked to vote without full knowledge of facts and consequences. Both Salmond and in the red corner Darling have started with unrealistic porkies to justify their stance.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 05:05 AM

"and find it to be arrogant in the extreme for a few counties to try and declare UDI"

The country isn't at the moment trying to declare UDI. There is a debate within the country on whether we should go independent or not. It is called self determination. Whatever the outcome is (and I personally think that the No vote will almost certainly win) a big majority of the Scottish people favoured the principle that we had the right to choose. There is nothing arrogant about determining your future - the arrogance is in suggesting one shouldn't have such a right.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 03:53 AM

Sugarfoot Jack, This is not an anti English matter. You'll notice I said the inhabitants of Scotland. This means your vote would count if you lived in Scotland and were on the electoral roll. Free University education is also for the inhabitants, regardless of nationality. If Scotland and England were independent members of the EU then all people living in England could also be entitled to free University education in Scotland.
Independence would allow the people of Scotland to run Scotland, get rid of Trident, for example, and kept education etcetera free. Different countries, geographical units if you like, have different takes on matters and Scotland has shown it has progressive ideas it cannot put into practice as it cannot control its purse strings. With one Tory MP but having to put up with the coalition policies is just unfair. At least the people of England can decide their own government.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Stu
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 03:41 PM

"The inhabitants of Scotland will vote for that."

Well, not all us nasty English want you to leave Jim, as Scotland offers some balance to the south-east centric government of our countries and without a devolved English parliament (never going to happen as the collective guilt and for past actions and the fear of nationalism shackles the English psyche still) this domination by London and the south-east will become worse for the regions and Wales too.

Plus, I'm an old-fashioned sort who believes there is strength in diversity and the boundaries between our countries are the artificial constructs of the people who have exploited our differences rather than build on them. 2000 years ago there was no Scotland, England or Wales and all of us are descended from the people that lived here then (with other bits mixed in for spice), and the cultural fluxes of the ensuing years that have been absorbed into our culture and given us the wonderful regional differences we have no are built on those common foundations; foundations that go back tens of thousands of years and are strong and run very deep in all of us.

So forgive me if I see our politicians on either side of whichever wall, dyke or sea you live on as people of straw, short-sighted and unimaginative, tied to the tropes of empire or some romantic ideal that itself was propaganda of a sort. We're not all the same of course, but we're nowhere near as different as some would have usd think.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 03:39 PM

The good people of Scotland will vote, yes.

Whether they vote to lose influence in matters of international importance or even economic matters affecting their currency of choice- the outcome hasn't been decided till the vote.

Mr McClean seems rather cock sure of himself. Me? I have more faith in the intelligence of the British people living in the northern end of the country. .

Don. Devolving to County councils, regional assemblies or whatever. Call them a parliament if you must but the powers are still at the parish pump level whilst ever Westminster and the city influence the value of your currency and provide you with defence. Most Scottish people realise that. Even the misty eyed nationalists. If they didn't they would be content with their bloated parish council.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 03:04 PM

Self determination means just that. The inhabitants of Scotland will vote for that. The population of England is about nine time that of Scotland and could outvote Scotland on anything as has been done for the last 300 years. The government of the UK is determined by how England votes, hence the demand for self determination, an independent country.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 11:16 AM

I don't remember getting a vote on that, Don...

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 11:12 AM

""I feel Th UK should have a say in things that affect The UK and find it to be arrogant in the extreme for a few counties to try and declare UDI.""

You don't feel that the UK already had its say when it chose to devolve government of Scotland to a Scottish Parliament?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookies
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 09:06 AM

Aye and English can have midges. Especially when on holiday in Scotland..

To be honest I wasn't sitting on the sideline. I feel Th UK should have a say in things that affect The UK and find it to be arrogant in the extreme for a few counties to try and declare UDI. Pooling resource and risk brings stability, as I have found and promoted in many areas such as business and public sector. Government is no different. So if you want something more inventive, then invent a currency. Keep sterling and ou need to pool economic strategy with the rest of The UK anyway so independence will have the effect of Scotland having less not more say in its economy. Get the Euro and ditto, only Frankfurt rather than Westminter. Invent a currency and you exchange the haggis for a banana.

On the other hand. Ripping the piss out of nationalists and other dinosaurs is fun, and actually has a social benefit. Helps to prevent modern outward looking people from taking the silly sods seriously.

Self determination? No. Just the one salary for the same politicians...

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 04:43 AM

God, I should always check before posting. My iPad changes words when I'm not looking! I meant to write Elephants can have fleas but fleas can't have elephants.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 05:28 PM

Allan, I sat with MacDiarmid in a studio inGlasfow and recorded him reciting that and other poems. On the same LP The Legend and the Man, he recites another of his pems Scotland Small? He would have dismissed comical critics like Musket ..... elephants can have deals but fleas can't have elephants.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 01:43 PM

"If every inhabitant of the Hoots Mon! Och Aye The Noo' Wannabe Republic are going to be so touchy about being wound up"

On the contrary I said we can live with someone on the sidelines making childish remarks. Just wish you could maybe come up with something a but more inventive than the usual stereotype. Less boring.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Musket
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 12:16 PM

Scotch mist?

I notice your mate has chosen the date for his pantomime. Did he check the diaries of all working tax paying citizens and find a dat when most of them are on holiday?

Never mind, don't forget the "UK political parties for oblivion" agreed to allow him his day in the international limelight. Just think on about that...

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 11:09 AM

Dont worry Ian....after a couple of hours I'm sure it will return as usual.

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: Musket
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 08:54 AM

We?

The mist begins to clear...

Subject: RE: BS: UK political parties for oblivion?
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 06:09 AM

Sorry that was me...Ake.