BS: Obsession with being 'right'

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 10:02 AM

>>>From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 07:20 AM

Religion to you apparently stands for people clinging to a set of rigid beliefs and dogma.

That is absolutely not what I think. Go and immediately join Jack and pete in the Very Very Silly column. <<<

Some people do not have an obsession with being 'right' they have an obsession with telling others that they are wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 10:31 AM

It seems to me that a fact can be proven, while an opinion may or not be proven to be a fact.

All Poodles are dogs, all dogs are not necessarily poodles.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 10:41 AM

Some poodles are ferrets



http://mashable.com/2013/04/08/steroid-ferrets-as-dogs/

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 11:13 AM

Had a friend of whom it was said: "He may not always be right, but he's never wrong!"

He was a very smart, clever and dedicated guy who was usually 'right' in his facts, decisions and understanding of sitations.... maybe 95% of the time. The problems arose in that other 5%..... he just couldn't quite absorb the idea that he might be misguided, mistaken or plainly wrong.
He was also very good at arguing for his weaker positions, and was almost never directly combative or insulting...(he had a fairly important job for many years). In his work, he had the position that allowed him to 'win' most debates... and was well respected for his high % of good decisions. It was very hard for him to deal with being questioned in his private life... he expected to be 95% right all the time, and still had problems with the 5%. Those who knew him well managed to shrug and wait for him to 'adjust' his own thinking.... those who didn't often viewed him pretty negatively and sometimes balked at him even when he WAS right.

I'll bet many of us know someone similar.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 11:22 AM

Religion to you apparently stands for people clinging to a set of rigid beliefs and dogma.

That is absolutely not what I think. Go and immediately join Jack and pete in the Very Very Silly column. <<<

Some people do not have an obsession with being 'right' they have an obsession with telling others that they are wrong.

Telling someone who ought to know better not to misrepresent me is not an obsession with telling someone he's wrong. It's telling him not to misrepresent me, as he has done several times before, as indeed have you. The only sense here in which I am telling someone he's wrong is that I'm telling him not to misrepresent me. And now I'm having to tell you the same thing. The most energy-sapping and tiresome aspect of all these threads is having to put people right who have misrepresented you. It isn't as though I can't express myself clearly, is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: number 6
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 11:24 AM

"All Poodles are dogs, all dogs are not necessarily poodles."

... and then there are Greyhounds


biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 11:26 AM

Jack, I think that story about ferrets disguised as poodles is apt to turn up on the Current Netlore site as the new hoax of the week.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: olddude
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 11:50 AM

I should learn not to post when I don't feel well. sorry for the outburst but I do get upset that Jerry isn't around only because of his faith. That isn't right to do that to friends. My opinion. Anyway I should not blast out like that, it isn't right

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 12:14 PM

" It isn't as though I can't express myself clearly, is it? "

Maybe you can. But you don't express yourself clearly. You contradict yourself and you seldom, if ever, state your position or beliefs clearly. Instead you express yourself by tearing down the positions of others, using what seems like the most convenient argument at the time. Moreover you nitpick over minutia is a way that makes you look like a liar.

I once said you said you were taunting me. You got indignant and said you never did. I went back to your original post. You said that you were "ribbing" me and "prodding" me. I don't know anyone on Earth who would argue that "ribbing and prodding" is a conversation were not the same thing as "taunting." Certainly in my larger point that you were behaving childishly was not diminished.

This is similar to your recent obsession with telling us you are "not certain" I am sure that in some pedantic way, in your head this means something. But looking at your posts from outside your head, there does not appear to be the slightest hint of doubt.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,Futwick
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 12:34 PM

From what I see, it's not that being right is so much the problem with Mudcat as it is that when one member gets a wild hare up his ass about another member, he simply refuses to ever again have a civil discussion with that member. I've looked at plenty of threads where certain posters (some of whom are still here) follow another around on every thread and antagonize that person instead of letting the argument die on the other thread. They want to carry it to every other thread where they find this other member posting no matter how innocuous or harmless this other person's posts may be.

I won't mention names because it will only start the very arguing I'm decrying here due to the fact that somehow these people seem to have a lot of support from other Mudcat members despite having done nothing to deserve it or not having anything any other Mudcat poster hasn't done.

Yes, we're all afflicted with the need to be right all the time but, as others have stated, it's human nature. But once you have a difference of opinion with someone--LEAVE IT ON THAT THREAD! Don't drag the argument and shitty attitude with you everywhere you that other person posting (and you people know who the fuck you are so don't sit there nodding your damn heads).

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 12:44 PM

"A good example of what is wrong with Jack's arguments. These two concepts, Jack, are not mutually exclusive as you seem to think. It is perfectly possible to be entirely honest AND very rude simultaneously."

What do you make of this?

I have had many exchanges with musket, Steve Shaw and stringsinger, where I called them and Dawkins rude for using the word "delusion" and they countered in their own words that, no it was not rude "It was reasonable." because it was true.

I had a back and forth with MtheGM with him arguing that it was not an offensive word where he ended up admitting it was always a put down, and that he wouldn't use "delusion" to describe another's beliefs. So you can imaging the WTF moment I had when I read what I quoted at the top of this page from MtheGM.

It may sound cruel but I think it boils down to this quote from Frans de Waal.

"they are poor listeners. This ensures sparkling conversations when different kinds of them get together the way male birds gather at "leks" to display splendid plumage for visiting females. It almost makes one believe in the "argumentative theory," according to which human reasoning didn't evolve for the sake of truth, but rather to shine in discussion."

I am thinking of calling it de Waals theory of the Mudcat BS forum. LOL LOL!

(The last line is a joke. The rest of the post is slightly tongue in cheek, but in the context of the discussion about the Obsession with being 'right' I am trying to make a serious point.)

I hope that by now someone is getting the idea that I did not start the Militant Atheist thread to "bait" Steve Shaw but to make a serious point about all mudcatters who are somewhat dogmatic.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 01:10 PM

"Yes, we're all afflicted with the need to be right all the time but, as others have stated, it's human nature. But once you have a difference of opinion with someone--LEAVE IT ON THAT THREAD! Don't drag the argument and shitty attitude with you everywhere you that other person posting (and you people know who the fuck you are so don't sit there nodding your damn heads). "

I don't know if you are talking to me or to someone who appears to be following me. It doesn't matter. In some cases it is obviously appropriate to carry on discussions to other threads. For instance a discussion about whether certain members are being dogmatic, "Militant Atheist" thread to a discussion as to whether members see themselves as "always right" this thread.

I pointed out on my thread with the Patton Oswalt quote that it was perhaps not, appropriate to open up atheism on that thread.

but this instruction IMHO

"But once you have a difference of opinion with someone--LEAVE IT ON THAT THREAD!"

Cannot be hard and fast.

But as a general guideline it is good.

But we have to keep in mind that the forum has no rules about that and it can only be a guideline. (Joe I am not saying that is a bad thing. I am just saying that the price of freedom is that everyone is free including the mischief makers.)

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 01:19 PM

One of my oldest best friends just can't admit being wrong about anything. In almost 60 years I have never heard him apologize for anything. Yet, he has good points. He is fond of saying, "Give me friends with faults I can stand; I can put up with anyone's good points."

"I am not arguing with you, I'm simply explaining why I am right." (Meghan M. my Grand daughter)

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 02:00 PM

I have nothing to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 02:20 PM

And pray, Futwick (love the spooerism btw), gives you the right to dictate who should drag which argument where? This is the type of post I meant when I said "when am told by someone that I must agree with what they say, do what they do or like what they like". Whether I am right, wrong or indifferent does not matter as long as it is within the bounds of acceptable on Mudcat. Basically - Unless Max says nay, it is OK and it is not up to anyone else what anther person does nor does it matter if anyone disagrees with another or how. Mudcat is one of the last great bastions of internet anarchy as far as I am concerned and soon as that stops I will leave!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 02:42 PM

Dave, I agree with you wholeheartedly. I think Joe and Max are doing a terrific job and I can't think of anywhere else that free speech and expression can take place as well as here.
I like to think of it, instead of internet anarchy, as a place where honest sharing of information can take place either musically or otherwise.

Kendall's grand daughter is delightfully honest.   And this is the nature of discussion that we get quite a lot on Mudcat. Statements like "you don't know what you're talking about" or "you're full of shit" etc. Even despite these brickbats, in the long run it isn't any individual who will determine what is "right" but we have to leave that for history to unfold.

I reserve the right to have an opinion which others may not agree with but I try to explain it in a way that doesn't require me to be "right" in a discussion. I have the humility to accept that I can be very wrong about certain issues but I also feel it's incumbent on those who don't agree with me to show me conclusively why this is true. Actually I relish intelligent criticism so that I might rethink my various positions on things.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,Musket sans sailor seaman
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 03:32 PM

Somewhere in all the debate above is an observation from Sailor boy that a debate with me isn't worth having. I apologise for being right from time to time. I accept that as I am not superstitious I fail to have credibility with some but hey ho.

On the other hand, rather than an obsession with being right, many mudcatters this side of the pond seem to have an obsession with being left...

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Ed T
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 03:42 PM

On being wrong

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 02:22 AM

"Somewhere in all the debate above is an observation from Sailor boy that a debate with me isn't worth having."

That is not entirely true. More accurately, a debate between you and me on religion is not worth having because you disrespect me. As evidenced by your post above.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 03:34 AM

It is easy to respect. All it takes is an open mind. When that mind is closed, you have to knock on the door and shout.

If you don't, you assume there is nobody at home. Surely that would be even more insulting?

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,Musket on his son's device
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 05:49 AM

Just thought about it.

There is a huge difference between knowing you are right and knowing someone is wrong.

Being obsessed with being right is the paranoid stance religions rely on. Knowing the inconsistencies that question their stance isn't being right, it is questioning the logic behind it...

I am not religious. I have no idea if I am wrong. Religious dudes have no idea if they are right.

Sloppy op.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 05:56 AM

"It is easy to respect. All it takes is an open mind. When that mind is closed, you have to knock on the door and shout.

If you don't, you assume there is nobody at home. Surely that would be even more insulting? "


Again you prove that it is pointless to debate with you.

Or do you refer to it as de bait? Consult a dictionary baiting and debating are very different things.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 06:07 AM

>>Just thought about it.

There is a huge difference between knowing you are right and knowing someone is wrong.<<

No there is not. Not unless you are dogmatic. In, for example "The God Delusion" debate you believe that you interpretation of deluded is right and mine is not.

>>Being obsessed with being right is the paranoid stance religions rely on. Knowing the inconsistencies that question their stance isn't being right, it is questioning the logic behind it...<<

I don't think many people in an argument are capable of seeing their own obsessions. But that does not apply to you, It is recreation for you. You have said so.   

>>I am not religious. I have no idea if I am wrong. Religious dudes have no idea if they are right.<<

That statement is so silly it is a self contained joke. Arrogance and self delusion is certainly an apparent quality among certain militant atheists.


>>Sloppy op. <<

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: kendall
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 07:07 AM

"On a dead man's door, you can knock forever."

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 07:32 AM

>>And for the other 60% of readers, that translates as; Check the Maths.

Subject: RE: BS: Check the math
From: Bee-dubya-ell - PM
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 07:27 AM

Speaking of mathematics, why is it that almost 100% of the negative comments about the minor usage and spelling differences between English as spoken in the UK and in the US come from UK posters? No American outside of some ignorant Bubba who's never read a book by a British author would ever comment on a British writer's use of "maths" instead of "math". He'd just assume the author was a Brit and continue reading. Is there some inherent need to be "right" about such matters built into the British psyche?

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 07:46 AM

Isaac Asimov once commented as a side note where he proof read a UK copy of one of his books and pointed out a typo. His editor pointed out in The UK that it was called maths. "Their language I guess" he said.

I suppose Sailor boy dragging this thread into that thread to prove his point is good on his account but completely misses the irony in the first place.

Ah well. Keep banging the rocks together.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 08:12 AM

Had to chuckle...almost every post in this thread, everybody is VERY VERY careful to be 'right', in being 'tolerant' to a wider view....until they argue a silly point!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 08:21 AM

Musty sans self control,

I should not have to point out that, that post belongs on this thread, not a serious one about economics.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 08:23 AM

Isaac Asimov once commented as a side note where he proof read a UK copy of one of his books and pointed out a typo.

a UK copy of one of his books and pointed out a typo.

a UK copy of one of his books

a UK copy

UK.

You include the context and still you ignore it.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,Musket sans sailor seaman
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 08:31 AM

Try repeating the sentence about irony instead then sit down and have a good think.

Hi Goofus! Funny how I say keep banging the rocks together and you wake up.

I would welcome the idea of someone seriously challenging my stance regarding knowing you are right being different to knowing someone is wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 09:01 AM

Yes someone seriously challenging your illogical nonsense would be quite the "wind-up"

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Ed T
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 09:57 AM

Food for "reasoned" consideration:

""Opinions are usually based on a set of assumptions that are likely unique to the individual. Even though you may be sure of it, your opinion that you are right, and the other person is wrong may really be a reflection of your bias, views and values rather than an objective assessment of the other perspective.

Some issues are objective and others are subjective- it's possible you're right provided you have observable, objective facts. That's not the case with subjective issues.

Regardless, why is it necessary to change someone's mind on an issue?

Why waste your time when it is clear that the point of the discussion is not up for objectivity and what is discussed doesn't matter to anyone involved?

Debates are often respectful, interesting and fun, when it is not so, why waste your time?

Just because you know you're right it doesn't mean getting into an actual argument is worth it. Sometimes, it's best to just let it go and agree to disagree. ""

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 10:02 AM

When Katrina hit NO .... the first group on the scene was that "evil" Christian group the Salvation Army. They were there before the Red Cross allowed their members to go in because it wasn't safe. The salvation army gave food, cloths, shelter to the victims. Funny no "unlighted" atheist group took up the cause. Why cause it didn't matter I guess

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: kendall
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 10:12 AM

The Salvation Army is the only charity I contribute to.
In my opinion they are the only one that uses their contributions to do good. The CEO makes a paltry salary. Thats a fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 10:13 AM

An atheist group were there you silly bugger. The Sally Army. You said it yourself.

They were there as a humanitarian help, not to push their faith.

I am here to wind up apparently.   But to say that religious groups have the edge on humanitarian gestures is an excellent example of the word delusion your nautical mate gets hung up over.

And is somewhat insulating to the rational majority.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 10:14 AM

Insulating. .

The Android word for insulting if you allow it to predict. ....

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Ed T
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 11:00 AM

The Wind - tapped like a tired man"
By: Emily Dickinson

The wind - tapped like a tired man
And like a host - "Come In"
I boldly answered - Entered then
My residence within

A rapid - footless guest
to offer whom a chair
as impossible as hand
a sofa to the air

No bone had he to bind Him
His speech was like the push
of numerous humming birds at once
from a superior bush

his countenance - a billow -
His fingers - as he passed
let go a mus - as of tunes
Blown tremulous in Glass

He visited - still flitting
then like a timid man
Again, He tapped - 'twas flurriedly
And I became alone

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 11:35 AM

Me too Kendall, I just heard they reached out to the 57 people still in the hospital from the Boston bombing. I contribute all the time to them

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 11:44 AM

it really isn't about religion, right, athistm or anything else. It is about an aggressive attitude that drives away great people from this community ... for the only reason, they have a faith no matter what that faith is. Losing people like Jerry because of insults ... no right. so true to my word I will end my discussions on faith or non faith or whatever. If I can't be quiet anymore I will at least be silent

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 11:50 AM

should say I won't be aggressive so I will be silent. We also lost great people like Azizzi for other aggression besides religion. Very sad. There a a lot of people here that I love, that is why I hang around but I will say I sometimes wonder why

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 12:48 PM

GUEST,Musket sans sailor seaman: "Hi Goofus! Funny how I say keep banging the rocks together and you wake up."

You're dreamin'

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 01:23 PM

Spleen Cringe, you nailed it! This obsession with "delusion" is in itself deluded.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: kendall
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 05:25 PM

OldDude, I've also considered leaving this place. It's ok to call a member a fool and a liar, but if you insult Maggie Thatcher, even though she's dead, the thread gets closed.

Gotta wonder about the rules.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 05:49 PM

Rght on oldude.awhile back a new charity emerged.i think dawkins was involved."atheist aid".got to admit that its quite catchy.dunno that it caught on for the long haul though.
meanwhile the sally army and suchlike have been doing it for a long time and show no sign of slowing down.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 07:38 PM

I blame Dick Miles and I know I am right to blame him.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 08:32 PM

I donate to the Mennonite services too. Although I am not Mennonite, I admire their work and service ethic, and can be quite comfortable in believing they are not crooks.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: gnu
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 09:39 PM

I donate to two... one accepts cash at the back door (and I cover my face when I do so, in an envelope, as is required, on every Christams Eve). The other, I give to once a year and get a tax chit for what I give. And when the rest of them come to my door, I pick up my donation dealy and ask them if they want to donate to the IWK Children's Hospital in Halifax... haven't collected ONE donation in about ten years of doin it, even when I said I would match their coin for their charity. I dislike those door-to-door twits.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 02:57 AM

The thread is called obsession with being right. It has become a list of people's charitable donations.

There is a link there somewhere. Just don't seem able to put my finger on it....

I don't tend to publish my list. After all I might not be right.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,Musket sans sailor seaman
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 06:19 AM

Just thought of it in another way.

I may or not be right but sailor boy has yet to prove me wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 06:20 AM

Right at 100. Wishing to talk to Musket sans nonsense.