BS: P.E. stops you being gay?

Subject: RE: BS: P.E. stops you being gay?
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 03 May 13 - 01:28 PM

Just to make it perfectly clear to all what we are dealing with...
Please post a link to any post where I discussed anything close to "...the circumstances during the time of pregnancy..."
That came entirely out of your head. Entirely. But I suspect that in posting as different people you forget what any one of you has said and mistakenly attribute it to me.

Subject: RE: BS: P.E. stops you being gay?
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 May 13 - 02:49 PM

TIA, he's trying to pull the same crapolla on you that he's been pulling on me. Goofballupagus is a writer of fiction.

To set the record straight, the radio station where I was news director was in Pasco, a small rural town in eastern Washington. It was an ABC affiliate, so for national news, I just flipped the switch at the top if the hour as I was instructed to do. The local news consisted of the farm report and mostly social news. An occasional accident on the nearby freeway. I did no editorializing or commentary.

Oh,yes. Frequent public service announcements that nearby Rattlesnake Mountain was aptly named, and that people hiking up there should keep their eyes open.

A news director is answerable to the station manager and Roger was essentially apolitical.

There should be no doubt by now in any intelligent person's mind that GfS is, indeed, a pathelogical liar.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: P.E. stops you being gay?
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 May 13 - 05:28 PM

My idols in the broadcast news business where people such as Eric Sevareid, Daniel Schorr, Walter Cronkite, and the granddaddy of them all, Edward R. Murrow.

During the time I was at KORD, Richard Nixon was president, and I had plenty of opinions about him. But my job was such that I didn't have an opportunity to voice them. But it was unnecessary, because other newsmen and commentators such as Eric Sevaried and others had plenty to say.

GfS apparently does not know the distinction between NEWS and EDITORIAL COMMENT. News deals with facts and answers the question, "what happened?" Commentary tries to ennunciate someone's opinion of why it happened, who's doing what to whom, and why are they doing it?

The six o'clock news on any of the "Big Three," ABC, CBS, and NBC, report the news. What events took place during the day. There may be a segment in the program for commentary, but that's always specified as "editorial opinion."

Fox News, on the other hand, does not separate news from opinion, and their programming is almost entirely opinion. They are anything but "fair and balanced."

I think Goofy reveals a great deal about himself with his allegations about my activities as a news man. He's not painting anywhere near an accurate picture of what a news man or even a news director's options are. They are required to follow the policies of the station. If you don't like the policy, don't work there. And the station where I worked as news director did not HAVE a political policy. Not that we didn't have opinions, but we had to keep them to ourselves.

If Goofball went to work as a newsman, assuming he could speak good English in general, speak standard American English (pronunciation), had a good, listenable voice, could write cohesive, grammatically correct sentences, had a fierce dedication to presenting the facts, and kept his opinions to himself unless assigned to do an opinion piece (which would be vetted first by the station manager or others in authority), then he might be allowed in the building.

But with what HE seems to think a newsman can get away with, he'd get his ass kicked out the door on the first day!

I think that in these threads, with his wild, imaginative, and denigrating fictions about various people about whom he knows nothing, he has more that graphically demonstrated his "fierce dedication to presenting the facts."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: P.E. stops you being gay?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 May 13 - 07:43 PM

TIA: "There is no pain. There are no open wounds. That is all made up in your twisted mind."

You brought it up, in the other thread.
...and yes, the time of pregnancy DOES affect the fetus, as even Don brought up(unwittingly) in one of hiss links.
Sorry, if I cared enough to answer you.

Don, are you talking to your 'audience' or anyone in particular?...or just yapping?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: P.E. stops you being gay?
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 May 13 - 08:30 PM

I am setting the record straight regarding my job as a news director, about which YOU hatched up a tissue of lies. This was for anyone out there who might blunder in and think you know anything about anything.

And what I said was that, according to knowledgeable people in the field, the sexual orientation of a fetus may be determined by the realease if hormones in utero after the genitals of the fetus are determined, and if mistimed, can affect the sexual orientation of the child. I did NOT say that the time of the pregnancy affects the fetus (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean).

You DO have trouble understanding plain English, apparently.

And I don't do anything "unwittingly." That's YOUR schtick.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: P.E. stops you being gay?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 May 13 - 12:46 AM

..and this never happens......and it's the liberals favorite news source!

Now let's have some fun!

From: Don Firth
Date: 02 May 13 - 02:56 PM
"I will not be responding any more to your nasty and childish attempts to bait me, Goofball. You are a pathological liar through and through, with overtones of sadism. I will no longer respond to your problem."

Remember I said that YOU were the pathological liar, and even said 'how' and 'why'.....and by golly, you proved me right again!!

Firth: "...Only your desire to attack my credibility. Because I have the unfortunate habit of telling the truth and backing it up ..."


From: Jeri
Date: 03 May 13 - 10:37 AM

""So you thought homosexuality was "the nucleus for all family structures which all societies are based on"?
I thinking got fucked up somewhere.""

No, Jeri, I said, (and look at it carefully, then answer the question, in the privacy of yourself...you might get it, then)....


"Don T: "Only you and Gone from Sanity are claiming that it is a "lifestyle".
Well, actually we thought it was the nucleus for all family structures which all societies are based on....what did YOU think it was???""
(Hint: think facetiously.....then answer the question based on that)


...and then there is this gem:

Don Firth: "I am setting the record straight regarding my job as a news director, about which YOU hatched up a tissue of lies. This was for anyone out there who might blunder in and think you know anything about anything.
And what I said was that, according to knowledgeable people in the field, the sexual orientation of a fetus may be determined by the realease if hormones in utero after the genitals of the fetus are determined, and if mistimed, can affect the sexual orientation of the child. I did NOT say that the time of the pregnancy affects the fetus (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean)."


NOW PAY ATTENTION!:"the sexual orientation of a fetus may be determined by the realease if hormones in utero after the genitals of the fetus are determined, and if mistimed, can affect the sexual orientation of the child....."

In other words....IT'S NOT 'GENETIC'?????????....and the hormones directly affect receptors!!!...and vice verse.

When you get over being irately pissed off, re-read it again!!!!!!!


What was it you were saying?...ummmm oh yeah, "Don Firth: "I am setting the record straight regarding my job as a news director, about which YOU hatched up a tissue of lies."

Methinks you've spun yourself dizzy, AGAIN!


...and to dear TIA.....
TIA: "You are a raving dickhead."
THEN....(in the same post)
TIA: "GfS - may I repeat, you are a hopeless A-hole."

Well, you DID express a certain confusion that runs in your family....

BTW....that's MISTER A-hole, to you!


Having a great time watching you people profoundly manifest your utter confusion about life, and sanity....!

GfS

P.S......well shit...I did offer to help them.....but....

Subject: RE: BS: P.E. stops you being gay?
From: GUEST,Tia
Date: 04 May 13 - 01:26 AM

Post the link or you lose.
It is really simple.
So far you are losing.
Can you post the link?

Subject: RE: BS: P.E. stops you being gay?
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 May 13 - 01:34 AM

"NOW PAY ATTENTION!:'the sexual orientation of a fetus may be determined by the release if hormones in utero after the genitals of the fetus are determined, and if mistimed, can affect the sexual orientation of the child.....'

"In other words....IT'S NOT 'GENETIC'?????????...."

It IS most certainly genetic. A combination of genes, possibly recessive, which sometimes express themselves, but not every time. The genetic combination is believed to be carried in the female line of the family, but generally does not affect them directly

There is general agreement among geneticists that sexual orientation IS genetic, but the genes do not always express themselves, which is the nature of recessive genes.

Basic Mendel.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: P.E. stops you being gay?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 May 13 - 01:35 AM

First of all...what link?...
Next, Sister, I'm FAR from losing! You guys with the 'genetic' rap, are getting the shit knocked out of you!

(She loves me`~~~)

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: P.E. stops you being gay?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 May 13 - 11:38 AM

Firth(who said he was going to stop this...but won't..or can't): "There is general agreement among geneticists that sexual orientation IS genetic, but the genes do not always express themselves, which is the nature of recessive genes."

But receptors DO manifest their activity and their influence over behavior, but they CAN be 're-trained'....and that is MORE than a 'general agreement' with psychologists, geneticists, rehab centers, religious folks, and politicians.....how do you think they get you to leave common sense, and make emotional issues out of thin air...then exploit their 'followers'???
It seems now that TWO of your influential 'studies' and your learned friends have stated as much....but then look the other way, and gloss over it, just to push that it is all 'genetic'...when it is clearly not.
Is a cup, a cup of tea, till you put tea in it???
Hardwired genetics can determine a male or female, right or left handedness, blond or brunette, two arms and two legs...but what you do with all those things is dependent on behavior. The notion that 'There's a woman trapped in this (male) body', is complete and utter nonsense...HOWEVER, how one INTERPRETS certain sensitivities, then attributes those 'feelings', is just a matter of INTERPRETATION and PERCEPTION of how and what someone THINKS is feminine(or masculine). Receptors influence what and how you CHOOSE to satisfy the urges of the receptors needs. Genetics will give one a REPRODUCTIVE SYSTEM..FOR REPRODUCTION or the species..any species...one's fantasies of how to manifest sexual(reproductive) urges, again is NOT necessarily attributed to genes....however, the 'equipment' to reproduce is.
To understand the role of receptors, and how the 'create needs' emotional or otherwise, is on a video link that I already provided on here. Maybe you should re-visit it....and BTW, before anyone begins to criticize the video, take a hard look at the people behind it's production and writing....monsters in their fields!...and carry more weight than the 'studies' you put up!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: P.E. stops you being gay?
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 04 May 13 - 12:16 PM

You say I brought it up in the other thread. Post the link. If you cannot, it is proof that you fabricate things in your sick mind.

Subject: RE: BS: P.E. stops you being gay?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 May 13 - 12:17 PM

Don, when you argue with an idiot like GfS on his terms, he wins. There is only one question: why shouldn't gay people be treated like everyone else in our laws? It makes no difference if it's a choice, it it's genetic, if it's caused by early childhood nurture, or anything. None of that matters. What matters is that it exists, people actualy are gay, and we're supposed to treat everyone equally, both ethically and legally. That's the only debate.

Subject: RE: BS: P.E. stops you being gay?
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 May 13 - 01:01 PM

Anonymous Guest, you are absolutely right.

Proverbs 26:4 -- Do not answer a fool according to his folly, lest you be like him.

Translation: Don't waste your time arguing with an idiot, or you lower yourself to his level.

Goodbye, Goofball. Rave all you want, I'm right, you're an idiot, and that's all there is to it.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: P.E. stops you being gay?
From: GUEST,Musket sans respectability
Date: 04 May 13 - 01:09 PM

Bloody Hell Goofus. Even the Bible seems to have you weighed up!

Subject: RE: BS: P.E. stops you being gay?
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 04 May 13 - 01:16 PM

I'm done too. Impossible to deal with a person who posts as multiple people and completely fabricates.

Subject: RE: BS: P.E. stops you being gay?
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 May 13 - 01:59 PM

"I wanna argue! Where IS everybody!??"

Goofballupagus.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: P.E. stops you being gay?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 May 13 - 03:49 PM

""The notion that 'There's a woman trapped in this (male) body', is complete and utter nonsense..""

As you have just proved that you don't even know the difference between homosexuals and transexuals, you obviously fit beautifully into the mould of opinionated fuckwit.

Get an education! Better yet, get a life!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: P.E. stops you being gay?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 May 13 - 05:43 PM

I sent this a few hours ago...but it didn't post.
I have not read any of your posts, yet, (sorry to say....maybe..), so I'm re entering this.


Firth(who said he was going to stop this...but won't..or can't): "There is general agreement among geneticists that sexual orientation IS genetic, but the genes do not always express themselves, which is the nature of recessive genes."

But receptors DO manifest their activity and their influence over behavior, but they CAN be 're-trained'....and that is MORE than a 'general agreement' with psychologists, geneticists, rehab centers, religious folks, and politicians.....how do you think they get you to leave common sense, and make emotional issues out of thin air...then exploit their 'followers'???
It seems now that TWO of your influential 'studies' and your learned friends have stated as much....but then look the other way, and gloss over it, just to push that it is all 'genetic'...when it is clearly not.
Is a cup, a cup of tea, till you put tea in it???
Hardwired genetics can determine a male or female, right or left handedness, blond or brunette, two arms and two legs...but what you do with all those things is dependent on behavior. The notion that 'There's a woman trapped in this (male) body', is complete and utter nonsense...HOWEVER, how one INTERPRETS certain sensitivities, then attributes those 'feelings', is just a matter of INTERPRETATION and PERCEPTION of how and what someone THINKS is feminine(or masculine). Receptors influence what and how you CHOOSE to satisfy the urges of the receptors needs. Genetics will give one a REPRODUCTIVE SYSTEM..FOR REPRODUCTION or the species..any species...one's fantasies of how to manifest sexual(reproductive) urges, again is NOT necessarily attributed to genes....however, the 'equipment' to reproduce is.
To understand the role of receptors, and how the 'create needs' emotional or otherwise, is on a video link that I already provided on here. Maybe you should re-visit it....and BTW, before anyone begins to criticize the video, take a hard look at the people behind it's production and writing....monsters in their fields!...and carry more weight than the 'studies' you put up!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: P.E. stops you being gay?
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 May 13 - 07:30 PM

Final word.

From the Can-West Global News Service:

A Chicago genome researcher says he has found a group of genes that strongly influence whether a man is homosexual--not a single "gay gene," but a group of genes acting together. This provides at least part of the explanation for what makes men gay, a question that gene scientists have sought to solve for more than a decade.

The University of Illinois at Chicago and U.S. National Institutes of Health searched through the genes of 456 men from 146 families—each of which has at least two gay brothers, and have essentially determined that there are three genes, two genes from the X chromosome and one from the Y chromosome, acting in combination.

There is concern among some geneticists as to how some expectant parents will respond to this information. The fear is that some parents, if, prenatal DNA testing shows the fetus carries this combination of genes, may opt to terminated the pregnancy. An abortion of an otherwise perfectly normal human being—who is destined to be homosexual.

And to some parents, this may pose a real dilemma. Those who are opposed to both homosexuality—AND to abortion, who oftentimes are religious, holding a rigid set of beliefs on both subjects.

The research is reported in the Journal of Human Genetics.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: P.E. stops you being gay?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 May 13 - 07:45 PM

Don Firth: "A Chicago genome researcher says he has found a group of genes that strongly influence whether a man is homosexual--not a single "gay gene," but a group of genes acting together. This provides at least part of the explanation for what makes men gay, a question that gene scientists have sought to solve for more than a decade."

"......This provides AT LEAST PART of the explanation for what makes men gay,....."


....any interest in the other PART?.....maybe abigger part??

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: P.E. stops you being gay?
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 04 May 13 - 11:21 PM

No link.
Absolute proof of fabrication.
Why should anyone listen to any further arguments?

Don Firth -
I really appreciate your efforts, but this is a total waste of your time. Please move on. I intend to (even though it is difficult not to respond to made-up crap).
TIA

Subject: RE: BS: P.E. stops you being gay?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 May 13 - 11:48 AM

Crap????
Isn't that what you find when you put your head in the sand??...or is it what you find when you put your head in that 'other place'??
You've bought into the political definition, and response to the political definition, who have also put financial and agenda driven pressure on these 'studies'...but then you willfully ignore some of the 'findings', that poke holes in their 'studies'!.....and some of their 'findings' come right out of their 'studies'.....and they happen to coincide with what I'm saying, known psychological facts....and they contradict what they were 'hoping' to find, to bolster the agenda, that originally funded them!!
I'm ready to post a good link into the nature of receptors....but you don't seem too receptive....in other words BLOCKED!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: P.E. stops you being gay?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 May 13 - 09:46 PM

(.....as everyone is exchanging e-mails, and messages discouraging each other NOT to learn anything new....besides, you know those 'know-it-alls'...they know EVERYTHING, so there is nothing they want to learn....because the know it all....but overlooked that 'ALL' is where they draw the line...that way they can stay deluded, and not have their bubble burst.....it's called 'unteachable'.....shhhh....which happens to be a symptom of a psychotic.)

Oh...just let me know.....shit, I might just post it anyway!
Hi Ake!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: P.E. stops you being gay?
From: frogprince
Date: 05 May 13 - 10:14 PM

(whistling ducks in the wilds of existentialism, totally refusing, the flags of the lack of the normal instinct to reproduce, denying the overwhelming success of conversion therapy, symptomatic of total obliviousness to the divine inspiration of heterosexual music...idiots, idiots, idiots)

Hello, Salvidor Dali

Subject: RE: BS: P.E. stops you being gay?
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 05 May 13 - 10:58 PM

fucking brilliant fp!
hahahahahahahaha

Subject: RE: BS: P.E. stops you being gay?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 May 13 - 11:00 AM

And your post makes better sense than Ex Sane's ravings FP.

I think..........!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: P.E. stops you being gay?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 May 13 - 12:27 PM

Here is a link that goes into these areas: (if you are REALLY interested).
Genetic Studies
Hormonal Studies
Neuroanatomic Studies
References

Have fun!...it covers the results of all the main thoughts on the subject

An excerpt:..The increasing claims of being "born that way" parallels the rising political activism of homosexual organisations, who politicise the issue of homosexual origins . In the 1970s, approximately ten percent of homosexuals claimed to be "born homosexual" according to a large scale survey.[3]
However, in a survey in the 1980s, with the homosexual rights movement increasingly becoming active, thirty-five percent claimed to be born that way.[4]"

Another except:.. "There are some homosexuals who would like to and probably could change their sexual orientation. Because some homosexual groups maintain contrary to the bulk of scientific evidence that preferential or exclusive homosexuality can never be changed, these people may be discouraged from seeking adequate psychiatric consultation. What is more deplorable is that this myth may also be accepted by some physicians...The physician who is not alert to the orientation of the homosexual patient may not challenge the belief in sexual irreversibility and arrange for appropriate referral[12]." It is possible that the Council on Scientific Affairs of the American Medical Association may review its policies due to lobbying by pro-homosexual organisations."

Another excerpt: "(c) Another factor which makes genetic theories implausible are cultural considerations relating to attitudes towards homosexual behaviour. The prevalence of such behaviour increases in cultures indifferent to such behaviour, and a casual attitude towards sex in general...


Dr. Baron, from the Department of Psychiatry, Columbia University, New York, commented in the British Medical Journal recently that " it would be difficult to envisage a change in the prevalence of a genetic trait merely in response to changing cultural norms[8] ."

....................................................................
The link that I have for the explaining how receptors work, and they do a great job, can be found at: (this link only explains how they work, it does NOT address the homosexual question....just how receptors work.
Here's the whole movie.....the part on receptors comes out post mid point Be patient, there is a lot of great stuff in here!...and NOTE the references!!!

Check it out if you wish to NOT remain unlearned in the subject other than the 'political' view, which is rather limited and skewed!!

GfS

P.S. I posted about their results more than three years ago, not from these sources..but watching it unfold as political agendas were affecting known scientific facts, and causing psychologists to adopt their views...even before their bogus, incomplete studies. That is also covered in the other link I gave you.

We'll see how many are really interested in the FACTS rather than the notion!

Subject: RE: BS: P.E. stops you being gay?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 May 13 - 12:48 PM

...and here's a list of featured speakers from different fields on the video link:

Jeffrey Satinover. Psychiatrist for over 20 years. Completed a Master's Degree as a member of the Theoretical Condensed Matter Physics group. Until recently, a teaching fellow and doctoral student in the Dept. of Physics at Yale University, where he studied supersymmetric many-body "theory" as applied to quantum computation. Author of several books that speculate on Quantum Mechanics as he applies it to conscious thought.

    David Albert. Physicist, Philosopher of Physics and Professor, Columbia University. Initially interviewed for this movie under the guise of giving a discussion on Quantum Mechanics.

    Stuart Hameroff. Professor in the Department of Anesthesiology and Psychology. Director of the Center for Consciousness Studies at the University of Arizona in Tucson, Arizona. 150 "peer reviewed" papers including three co-authored with Roger Penrose. Believes all his academic achievements give him the authority to violate the philosophy of science (the Scientific Method is not in a position to comment on the supernatural).

    Lynne McTaggart. Author of the book "The Field" and "What Doctors Don't Tell You". Founder and Editor of the publishing house of newsletters and books of "Alternative" health and spirituality, including the newsletter titled "What Doctors Don't Tell You". Speaks on consciousness, what she calls "new physics", and alternative medicine.

    Candace Pert. Doctorate and Post-Doctorate of Pharmacology. Educated at Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine. Published over 250 scientific articles on peptides and their receptors and their role in the immune system.

    Joseph Dispenza. Studied Biochemistry at Rutgers University in New Brunswick, N.J. Has a "Doctor of Chiropractic degree" from Life University. Member of the International Chiropractic Honor Society and follower of Ramtha's School of Enlightenment (popularly seen as a cult). Has released a DD series, Your Immortal Brain, which "looks at the ways in which the human brain can be used to create reality through the mastery of thought." He does not hold any qualifications relevant to the field of Quantum Mechanics.

    Andrew B. Newberg. Assistant professor of Radiology at University of Pennsylvania Hospital. Physician in Nuclear Medicine. Co-author of the book "Why God won't go away: Brain Science and Biology of Belief". Has argued that the integration of science and religion is critical for a better understanding of how human beings think and behave in a global context. Trained in medical sciences as opposed to physical sciences, Dr. Newberg is not in a position to make predictions and speculation on how Quantum Mechanics works in the Macroscopic world.

    Dean Radin. Senior Scientist at the "Institute of Noetic Sciences". Serves as adjunct faculty at Sonoma State University and on the Distinguished Consulting Faculty at Saybrook Graduate School in San Fransisco. BSEE (hons) in electrical engineering from the University of Massachusetts, MS electric engineering and PhD Psychology from University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign. Has an extensive list of "qualifications" in Parapsychology and "Psi" research. He is not formally qualified in Quantum Mechanics, despite his impressive resume in Electric and Electronic engineering fields.

    John Hagelin. Lecturer and "Professor of Physics" at Maharishi University of Management (which was founded by the late Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and has been described as the practice of Transcendental Meditation as a cult as opposed to culture, and as a grandiose narcissistic dream, a form of intellectual bondage, that they call Enlightenment). "Minister of Science and Technology" of the "Global Country of World Peace". Is cited in the movie's website as holding an A.B., and M.A., and a PhD although strangely the site does not list what those degrees are in. Is specified as a "World reknowned Quantum Physicist" on the site. In actuality, his scientific credits and work continued in 1984 at the Maharishi University of Management. Began "research" in 1987, published two papers in '87 and '89, published in the "Journal of Modern Science and Vedic Science" on the "relationship between physics and consciousness".

Subject: RE: BS: P.E. stops you being gay?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 13 - 01:19 PM

Every one of the "References" is between 20 and 53 years old.
Not very up-to-date science.
But it sure does support a 1950's viewpoint.

Subject: RE: BS: P.E. stops you being gay?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 May 13 - 01:33 PM

...and how long ago did they discover that the earth revolved around the sun??....would a later opinion change that fact?

Here's something from 2010"

"Recent Article from ScienceDaily

February 2010: Potential Evolutionary Role for Same-Sex Attraction

Male homosexuality doesn't make complete sense from an evolutionary point of view. It appears that the trait is heritable, but because homosexual men are much less likely to produce offspring than heterosexual men, shouldn't the genes for this trait have been extinguished long ago? What value could this sexual orientation have, that it has persisted for eons even without any discernible reproductive advantage?

One possible explanation is what evolutionary psychologists call the "kin selection hypothesis." What that means is that homosexuality may convey an indirect benefit by enhancing the survival prospects of close relatives. Specifically, the theory holds that homosexual men might enhance their own genetic prospects by being "helpers in the nest." By acting altruistically toward nieces and nephews, homosexual men would perpetuate the family genes, including some of their own.

Two evolutionary psychologists, Paul Vasey and Doug VanderLaan of the University of Lethbridge, Canada tested this idea for the past several years on the Pacific island of Samoa. They chose Samoa because males who prefer men as sexual partners are widely recognized and accepted there as a distinct gender category -- called fa'afafine -- neither man nor woman. The fa'afafine tend to be effeminate, and exclusively attracted to adult men as sexual partners. This clear demarcation makes it easier to identify a sample for study.

Past research has shown that the fa'afafine are much more altruistically inclined toward their nieces and nephews than either Samoan women or heterosexual men. They are willing to babysit a lot, tutor their nieces and nephews in art and music, and help out financially -- paying for medical care and education and so forth. In a new study, the scientists set out to unravel the psychology of the fa'afafine, to see if their altruism is targeted specifically at kin rather than kids in general.

They recruited a large sample of fa'afafine, and comparable samples of women and heterosexual men. They gave them all a series of questionnaires, measuring their willingness to help their nieces and nephews in various ways -- caretaking, gifts, teaching -- and also their willingness to do these things for other, unrelated kids. The findings, reported on-line this week in the journal Psychological Science, lend strong support to the kin selection idea. Compared to Samoan women and heterosexual men, the fa'afafine showed a much weaker link between their avuncular -- or uncle like -- behavior and their altruism toward kids generally. This cognitive dissociation, the scientists argue, allows the fa'afafine to allocate their resources more efficiently and precisely to their kin -- and thus enhance their own evolutionary prospects.

To compensate for being childless, each fa'afafine would have to somehow support the survival of two additional nieces or nephews who would otherwise not have existed. "If kin selection is the sole mechanism by which genes for male same-sex sexual attraction are maintained over time," the fa'afafine must be "super uncles" to earn their evolutionary keep, explains Vasey. Consequently, Vasey suggests "that the fa'afafine's avuncularity probably contributes to the evolutionary survival of genes for male same-sex sexual attraction, but is unlikely to entirely offset the costs of not reproducing."

Do these findings have any meaning outside of Samoa? Yes and no. Samoan culture is very different from most Western cultures. Samoan culture is very localized, and centered on tight-knit extended families, whereas Western societies tend to be highly individualistic and homophobic. Families are also much more geographically dispersed in Western cultures, diminishing the role that bachelor uncles can play in the extended family, even if they choose to. But in this sense, the researchers say, Samoa's communitarian culture may be more -- not less -- representative of the environment in which male same-sex sexuality evolved eons ago. In that sense, it's not the bachelor uncle who is poorly adapted to the world, but rather the modern Western world that has evolved into an unwelcoming place."

Subject: RE: BS: P.E. stops you being gay?
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 May 13 - 04:02 PM

The above article is very good. The thing that puzzles me is why GfS chose to post it. Perhaps it's because of the final paragraph, in which the author seems to be trying to negate what the previous part of the article is saying—and which, up until that point, which makes a great deal of sense from an evolutionary standpoint.

Note:   In Indonesia a few years back, the government tried to encourage homosexuality in an effort to slow Indonesia's burgeoning population problem.   Despite persuasion and offering certain encouragements to those who would "opt" to become homosexual, the attempt was a complete failure.

Despite the government offered incentives, no one "chose" to change their sexual orientation.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: P.E. stops you being gay?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 May 13 - 05:02 PM

Firth: "Note:   In Indonesia a few years back, the government tried to encourage homosexuality in an effort to slow Indonesia's burgeoning population problem."

Yes, and when I said the same thing, as proposed by Rockefeller's agenda for America, to model it after China's model, you objected to that position!....so make up your fucking mind!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: P.E. stops you being gay?
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 May 13 - 05:13 PM

GfS, I was the one who posted that item on a previous thread a couple of years ago.

I case you missed the point, it indicates pretty clearly that one does not simply choose to change one's sexual orientation, even when it might be advantageous to do so.

Are you all right? What you've been posting recently is very erratic and self-contradictory.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: P.E. stops you being gay?
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 May 13 - 06:53 PM

Anybody who is still with this thread, Google "Rockefeller's agenda for America homosexual" and look at the sort of web sites it takes you to.

That's the kind of place where Goofballupagus gets his information.

'Nuff said.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: P.E. stops you being gay?
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 06 May 13 - 11:48 PM

Sanity person has not been able to post a link that shows that they did not entirely fabricate the discourse to which they were referring (and BTW they will not be able to - but you knew that).

This individual is truly incapable of discriminating fact from fantasy.

Thus Don (and others), I really discourage any further engagement.

In some ways, it feels cruel to participate.

Subject: RE: BS: P.E. stops you being gay?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 May 13 - 01:50 PM

Sounds like you two get a little nervous when people who you think you are influencing get closer to the truth!.....Oh, wait a minute...umm...let me see.....t-r-u-t-h.....you what??...never heard of it????
Let me help.................

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: P.E. stops you being gay?
From: frogprince
Date: 07 May 13 - 07:19 PM

".....t-r-u-t-h....."

Guess what; a website making a tremendous effort to appear intellectual and literate, beginning with absolutely fundamentalist presuppostions, including the certainty that all the "logic" presented will prove the initial presuppositions. The real underlying "proof" of it all? The certainty that every word of the Bible was determined by the finger of God jamming into the brain of each writer who contributed to the Bible, pouring in content which then poured out through the writer's pen unto the page.

Subject: RE: BS: P.E. stops you being gay?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 13 - 11:04 PM

"There is no truth in numbers"

Says it all.....

Subject: RE: BS: P.E. stops you being gay?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 May 13 - 12:52 AM

Nonetheless, its in the receptors, and influence of them both physiologically, and in the neurological system that is the major influence. Studies show that this influence of receptors, in a stressed mother, is the reason the hypothalamus enlarges....plus, as I've said before in different threads, and different circumstances, "The energy you put into a system, tends to change that system!"
Certain genes with certain markers tend to be more affected than others..thus the highly biased 'studies' are heralded for 'finding the magic gene'.....nope!..they found the ones more affected by stressed hormones, cause by the receptors!
Even Don's links say as much, but he didn't know what they glossed over.....besides, he WANTED to believe in was genetic, so he blinded himself to taking in ALL the information, objectively.
...and that may go for some of you 'casual observers'. What is needed, is the 'impartial observer'......then it ain't so bad...the chips fall where they fall, and don't have to answer or promote a predetermined outcome.
Sounds like science.....
Doesn't sound like political agendas!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: P.E. stops you being gay?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 May 13 - 05:42 AM

So why then are all your links sourced from Psychiatrists, Psychologists, Physicists, Chemists and even an expert in "Transcendental Meditation".

What's the matter?.....Couldn't find an ALCHEMIST?

One thing these people all share, none of them knows diddly squat about genetics.

In fact, Geneticists are the one group of experts whose input you have carefully and oh so persistently excluded, not too surprisingly since they are the only ones qualified to destroy your pet idee fixe.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: P.E. stops you being gay?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 May 13 - 02:11 PM

Don T, You must be short on comprehension. I said that the video link is NOT about homosexuality, one way or the other, but there was a segment on 'receptors' and what they do, and how they function. The fact that the video, was dealing with different subjects, related to the different speakers, on their various subjects, really has NO bearing on what they were talking about that was not related.
I do commend you, however, for at least watching the video. I think you may agree, that the segment on receptors was very illuminating....may even shed some light on the subject at hand...and that is 'receptors'.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: P.E. stops you being gay?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 May 13 - 02:27 PM

""I do commend you, however, for at least watching the video. I think you may agree, that the segment on receptors was very illuminating....may even shed some light on the subject at hand...and that is 'receptors'.""

At last an admission of thread drift, not germane to the issue and a subject for a separate thread.

So why, given that admission, have you been regularly banging on about receptors in every gay thread?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: P.E. stops you being gay?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 May 13 - 02:59 PM

Sorry, hit the wrong button.

Because 'receptors' have a function of setting up the neurological system in the fetus. Being as the fetus, is attached directly to the mother's biological system for nourishment, and the formation of all the various functions, that a child is born with....circulatory, digestion, neurological, reproductive etc etc....OK?...now when the mother is stressed, or bitter, or resentful...or even happy and calm, those emotions she is going through, and the neurological signals, are being directly sent to the fetus. The receptors, being formed, in essence, are being programmed, in the womb, to be predisposed, as to the signals they are going to respond to, once born. for instance, if something strikes you as 'funny', you laugh. Something strikes you as 'sad', you may have a 'less than happy' response....If a child is born, with a predisposition to 'resent', or resent the 'father figure', then he will be readily 'triggered', to have those 'receptors' respond and be activated, as they were in the womb..much like a child can be born with a chemical addiction, 'receptors' are predisposed to respond, but not to a physical/chemical addiction, but to an emotional 'addiction'(if you will). Upon satisfying their need, to transmit neurological signals, they then are 'gratified' by the brain releasing dopamine. This is pretty well explained in the video.

I will pick this up a little later, but A have an appointment to get ready for. Just think about what I laid out for you. It is a non biased anatomical FACT. How it ties in, I'll get into when I get back.
Ignore, at this point, any half-witted blusterer trying to dispute this as a political point of view...it is strictly medical, and accurate.

I'll be back.....

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: P.E. stops you being gay?
From: frogprince
Date: 08 May 13 - 03:35 PM

Gfs, just a thought or two:
In seventy years of life, I have encountered a very few people who might equal you in your tendency to spew out totally unwarrented vile things about others. Fewer still tended to besmirch the family members, of whom they they knew nothing, of those they slandered.
I have known and spent extensive time with so many hundreds of conservative-to-very-strictly-fundamentalist Christians that I don't know where to start on on actual estimate. I may disagree with a lot of their beliefs now, but very, very few of them have been habitually foul-mouthed at all. I'm aware of Fred Phelps, and Ann Coulter, but I've been largely fortunate enough to know their ilk only from the media.
In all these years, I cannot think of any single person I've encountered before who with one breath expressed a commitment to Christianity or Christian morality, and with the next breath pumped out anything like the slime that you've tried to inflict on people on a regular basis.
You may now proceed to say why you consider these observations to be idiotic.

Subject: RE: BS: P.E. stops you being gay?
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 May 13 - 05:36 PM

Goofball's little dissertation on "receptors" and the mother's moods and attitudes and such being transmitted to the fetus is something I have heard before.

In 1950, science fiction writer L. Ron Hubbard branched out into his own brand of psychology when he published "Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health."

Hubbard maintained that things that affected the moods and attitudes of an expectant mother were perceived by the fetus and stored in the subconscious "reactive mind" as what Hubbard called "engrams." Engrams, of course, cause all kinds of psychological problems—the whole catalog—and trained "auditors" could "clear" a person (patient) of their engrams and restore them to perfect mental health.

A whole batch of people jumped on the bandwagon, took the very short course in "auditing," and set themselves up in business.

During the Fifties, I was stomping around the University of Washington campus using a pair of forearm crutches. I had several people approach me and say that if I'd sign up for several "auditing sessions," I could throw the crutches away and walk normally.

Odd! I always thought poliomyelitis was caused by a virus. I didn't know that I got it because my mother was feeling cranky when she was pregnant with me!

It wasn't long before the appropriate Medical and Psychiatric organizations declared Dianetics a "pseudoscience."

And shortly after that, Hubbard, fearing bad publicity for he and his followers, and such things as charges of malpractice, declared Dianetics to be a "religion," and called it "The Church of Scientology," thus claiming the protections of Freedom of Religion.

The rest is history.

What Goofball is saying about the mother's mood affecting the fetus through "receptors" sounds exactly like what L. Ron Hubbard was peddling in "Dianetics."

He claims he's a "family counselor." Dianetics auditor, perhaps? Or a priest in the Church of Scientology?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: P.E. stops you being gay?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 May 13 - 08:57 PM

frogprince, Your comments are understandable, and I can see your point. I'll comment on them as soon as I have more time...

As to Don Firth: ..(I just posted this in my last post): "Ignore, at this point, any half-witted blusterer trying to dispute this as a political point of view...it is strictly medical, and accurate.
I'll be back....."

Dianetics have NOTHING to do with what I'm talking about...it's just another one of your 'tactical distractions'.

I'll get back shortly.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: P.E. stops you being gay?
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 May 13 - 09:07 PM

Quack! Quack! Quack! Quack. . . .

Donald Duck

Subject: RE: BS: P.E. stops you being gay?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 May 13 - 11:39 PM

Well, at least your intelligence is rising!

gfS

Subject: RE: BS: P.E. stops you being gay?
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 May 13 - 01:20 AM

Goofball, that was a cartoon character expressing everybody's opinion of your competence as a family counselor, which you have claimed to be.

Or are you a screen writer as you have also claimed to be?

Or write film scores as you have also claimed to do?

And on the seventh day, do you rest?

Don Firth

P. S. I don't know what all else you have claimed to be because, frankly, I generally don't bother to read all of your posts after I get the gist of what you are groping around and attempting to say.

Subject: RE: BS: P.E. stops you being gay?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 09 May 13 - 05:41 AM

Guest-from Sanity, are you saying that the mother's moods, experiences, hormone swings, traumas or pleasures have a direct influence on the developing brain of the foetus, and therefore will produce character traits and even determine sexuality? If so, have any studies been done on identical twins, (who presumably are subject to identical influences in utero) and do they have identical personality traits after birth and in later life? Furthermore, are there examples of identical twin gay siblings? (This is all starting to sound horribly like a Mengele theory of eugenics. He apparently was most interested in twins, for equally sinister reasons.) In my experience of twins among my pupils, each pair of identical twins showed an amazing difference in their personalities. One was more timid, more withdrawn and more compliant etc while the other was invariably bolder, more confident and sometimes more naughty. I have to repeat that even if a child is 'born gay', it doesn't matter, and they can BE gay and marry etc as they wish. Whyever not? Perhaps the homophobics here are travelling down the road of 'identifying' gay foetuses in the womb and aborting (ie murdering) them to prevent the birth of (gasp!) yet another gay abomination. I DO hope NOT!