5yr old shoots 2yr old

Subject: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: s&r
Date: 01 May 13 - 09:58 AM

In Kentucky I read that a boy has accidentally killed his sister with the rifle he was given for his birthday. I find it hard to comprehend; even more so
this page

Stu

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 01 May 13 - 10:58 AM

So what's he getting for his next birthday?

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: number 6
Date: 01 May 13 - 11:00 AM

Almost impossible to comprehend ... a 5 year old getting a lethal weapon for his 5th birthday ... another 'gun' tragedy.

biLL

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 01 May 13 - 11:18 AM

they want their heads read!

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 May 13 - 11:47 AM

Almost impossible to comprehend ... a 5 year old getting a lethal weapon....

HEY! Its his Constertooshunal Right to have one. Second Ammendment don't say nuthin' 'bout age.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 01 May 13 - 12:05 PM

Something about an incident of this kind should have appeared in my usual sources, and I don't recall seeing anything I can relate to the incident as described.

"I read somewhere" isn't exactly verifiable.

There have always been incidents demonstrating that stupidity doesn't disqualify anyone from being a parent. A few of them from time to time have involved guns.

There have been, for as long as I've been watching, kids clever enough to evade, avert, corrupt, violate, and subvert the best intentioned efforts of parents to provide safe and effective restrictions assuring that the kids don't act inappropriately while they learn the rules of being good members of society.

While the advertisement linked has no relationaship to any report of an adverse event or evidence of anything obviously wrong with what it shows, I can agree that it is in questionable taste to flaunt children of the apparent ages shown with guns, or in advertising for much of anything else.

There is no indication that the pictures in the advertisement were not taken while the kid's handling of guns was under the immediate supervision of parents or other qualified supervision, or that they took to guns home where they had access to them other than in the presence of qualified suprervision. If anyone agrees that the kids are too young to be shown, they should take a look at "toddler beauty pageants" or "sports news" about kiddie teams.

I've found lots of reports of kids at similar ages "driven to achieve" beyond their limits in little league as offensive as the advertisment linked, and have know a half dozen kids permanently injured by nothing but "parental ambition" there too.

SPAM?. FLAMING?. Somebody with nothing to say so they passed on another urban myth?

Another thread that's (IMO) not worth keeping open, but I suppose it's not worth my concern since anyone who responds is unlikely to say much of anything worth thinking about.

John

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 May 13 - 12:49 PM

C'mon, JiK--you know there's a difference between beauty pageants and lethal weapons. Or by some chance can't you in fact tell the difference?

So maybe it wasn't a 5 year old killing a 2 year old.    There's at least one factual incident of a 10 year old killing his 7 year old brother.    That's so much better, right?


More to the point is the observation that handling rifles has been a rite of passage for US kids outside big cities for quite a while.    I would hope kids of the ages shown are still with toy guns, but outrage on this score will only help the NRA and its supporters--especially in "flyover territory" .   

There's no point to butting our heads against the wall of rifle tradition.   What we need to stop is the plague of automatic weapons, semis, and handguns.

Let's keep focused.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: s&r
Date: 01 May 13 - 01:27 PM

A five-year-old has accidentally shot dead his two-year-old sister as he played with his own rifle.

The tragedy happened on Tuesday afternoon at a home in southern Kentucky.

Cumberland County coroner Gary White told the Lexington Herald-Leader it was "just one of those crazy accidents."

Sky News John, and other reports

"The boy had picked up the .22-calibre Crickett gun, which he was given as a birthday present last year, when it went off.

Police said the family did not realise it was loaded. The children's mother was at home at the time but had just stepped away.

"She was actually cleaning her house, and she had went out on the porch," the coroner told WKYT-TV.

"She said no more than three minutes had went by and she actually heard the rifle go off. She ran back in and found the little girl."

The child was pronounced dead at Cumberland County Hospital. Doctors worked on reviving her for about an hour without success.

The coroner said the shooting would be ruled as accidental."

The page from the gun magazine was a feature in the catalogue of Crickett.

Stu

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 May 13 - 01:37 PM

Here.

1. Why wasn't the rifle put safely away?
2. Why was it left loaded?
3. Why wasn't there a trigger lock in use?
4. Why was a kid given a rifle on his fourth birthday anyway?
5. Why didn't the parents parent?

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 01 May 13 - 01:38 PM

Not an urban myth.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/01/us/kentucky-accidential-shooting/index.html

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 01 May 13 - 01:52 PM

"The family didn't know it was loaded?"   Why, who loaded it?

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 01 May 13 - 02:07 PM

'The Crickett rifle is not three feet long...' So how long was it? And is its length relevant? And why should it be quite acceptable for a tiny child to own a gun of any size? Obviously the parents had loaded it, and omitted to take out the cartridge. Well, I suppose they thought a child 'has the right to bear arms', they chose to arm him, and now sadly they must face the consequences. I feel terribly sorry for the lad himself. All his life he will know he shot his little sister. What effect will that have on him? Totally mad over there, glad in UK we aren't quite so daft.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: gnu
Date: 01 May 13 - 02:38 PM

Eliza... "Obviously the parents had loaded it, and omitted to take out the cartridge." I don't think that the statement "The gun was kept in a corner, and the family did not realize a shell had been left in it, he said." is admissable as evidence anywhere other than in Internut Court.

But, such speculation is irrelevant. A FACT is that a shell was fired by a small boy unsupervised. That, in and of itself, is proof of negligence. It CERTAINLY does not prove that the parents loaded that shell but THAT DOESN'T MATTER.

As for why a small boy was given a gun... I recall reading years that a deer hunting licence in Texas had an age requirement of 5. I was trained on small arms at 5 by an RCAF small arms expert but I had no unsupervised access to weapons or ammo until I was much older... at least double that age. By that time, I had enough reasoning power to know that if I messed up I would get messed up.

It's all about common sense. Legislate that? ban stupidity? or get good gun laws to attempt stop tragedies?

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 May 13 - 03:15 PM

We -- my two brothers and my sister -- NEVER had unlimited access to firearms until we were about 15. At 12 we were eachsent to firearms training, and required by my mother to prove we could hit a target 50 feet away. Each of us, my sister includedl

Giving a four year old a rifle as a present is stupid. Leaving it "laying around" is stupid. I'll be that his parents wouldn't have left a power saw laying around where the kid could get it.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,Futwick
Date: 01 May 13 - 05:06 PM

Chances are that these parents are the types that hate the panty-waisted liberals trying to take their guns away and simply refused to practice any gun safety because they are stupid enough to believe the NRA bullshit that guns are harmless.

I wonder if they're ready to concede that the panty-waisted liberals may have had a point.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 May 13 - 05:38 PM

I shot my Grandfather's .22.at an early age but I never had a clue as to where it was kept. Frankly, I feared the opinion of my mother more than anything in life and lying to her or losing her respect was far worse than any short term fun I might have doing something I knew I shouldn't. It killed me to be out of her favor....and she milked that all the time.

Before we had kids, I told Karen I wished I could talk to my parents first for advice.....I still think they were great and both better than me.

JOHN....This article is quite real and the thing that gets me the most is the flippant statement of the Coroner....

"It's a Crickett," the coroner explained. "It's a little rifle for a kid… The little boy's used to shooting the little gun."
"Just one of those crazy accidents," he added."

And I want to shoot the fuckwit Coroner in the balls with a .357 Colt Python. I used to have one and it was a big revolver for a big boy and I was used to shooting the big gun. That would be just another of those crazy accidents too.


Spaw

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 May 13 - 05:52 PM

Here it is.

Now we'll have the NRA saying that if the two year old had a gun she'd be alive today.

Don T.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 May 13 - 06:45 PM

There are NO "accidents" with firearms -- there is only carelessness.* The parents are culpable: they were careless and now they have lost a 2 year old son. Their anguish has to be overwhelming, but it was because of their carelessness and they must realize it.

Not withstanding the above, it was their carelessness that led to a homicide just a surely as if they had left the 5 year old in the family car and he took it out of gear and it rolled over the 2 year old. They are responsible for the death of another human being.



*National Rifle Association, Small Arms Instruction (1942).

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 01 May 13 - 07:46 PM

If the boy was "used to" the gun, maybe it was not an accident. What might he shoot next? By accident?

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: gnu
Date: 01 May 13 - 08:44 PM

I'll check back in another thousand posts to see if another gun thread got beyond it's own ass.

And, before ya shit on me, read ALL of the previous posts. Some make sense. Others... not so much.

gnightgnu

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 01 May 13 - 08:51 PM

If it's the official opinion of Cumberland County authorities that the incident was "just one of those crazy accidents," then Cumberland County should have its charter suspended and its affairs administered by the Commonwealth of Kentucky until such time as its citizens see fit to elect officials whose heads aren't quite so far up their asses. Should people who can't see that the parents are to blame here be allowed to do anything that requires having a grip on reality like collecting taxes, educating children, or organizing a July 4th picnic?

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 May 13 - 08:58 PM

... did not realise it was loaded.

Yup, they never do.

Look on the bright side - this is natural selection in operation. Perhaps it will improve the species.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: frogprince
Date: 01 May 13 - 09:28 PM

I spent some time trying to think of a response to Greg F's post. I decided that any reply would be pointless. Better to just let people read it for themselves and know what it tells them.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 01 May 13 - 10:30 PM

Greg, your statement that "this is natural selection in operation," even if it were a serious argument instead of just cruel snarkiness, overlooks the fact that the kid whose genes should have been eliminated from the gene pool is the one who pulled the trigger, not the one who died. Had the kid shot himself, your "argument" might have a sliver of validity. As it is, it has none at all.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 May 13 - 11:12 PM

I lived in Pulaski County on Lake Cumberland and went to college up at Berea. In general, I love Kentucky. Cumberland is a couple counties over from Pulaski. Not to be too stereotypical or profiling but if anyone wants to bother checking, I'd bet it is almost completely white with about 25 or 30 percent below poverty levels and they are 100% GOP. I might be wrong but all the adjacent counties both in KY and Tennessee will probably match that as well. Whitley, even just a few years back still had signs that warned African-Americans they weren't welcome.


Spaw

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 May 13 - 11:16 PM

Greg F that is no bright side. Never.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 02 May 13 - 02:52 AM

No Greg, sorry but there's no 'bright side' to the death of a baby in such a terrible way. I'm wondering if the parents have seen the light and have chucked all their guns away? My guess is no, they haven't.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST
Date: 02 May 13 - 03:12 AM

If I try very, very hard, then on the gun question I can understand that the culture in certain parts of the USA is different from here in the UK. I still don't get the obsession with guns but try to avoid commenting.

However, in this case, I think some people are MAD!

Eddie

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 May 13 - 04:05 AM

This case well illustrates that guns DO kill people - would this 5 year old have killed this 2 year old without a gun?

And if the rifle had been locked in a secure gun cabinet (as UK law would have required) there would have been no death.

So I wonder how long it will be before Ding-dong decides it was REALLY done by an Obama death squad to facilitate Obama passing restrictive gun laws?

In a sane country this news would (a) be seen as proof that the NRA are all sociopaths and (b) kick-start gun control legislation again. I wish.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 May 13 - 05:41 AM

I guess I was eleven or twelve when I first shot a rifle in a Boy Scout marksmanship class, and I worked at a camp where kids as young as eight did archery and riflery. In neither case was there any thought of learning to use weapons against people - the kids were shooting targets and clay pigeons, and they were being taught very strict safety procedures. In a land where such weapons are part of the culture, maybe it's better that they receive safety training when they're too young to go out and teach themselves to shoot without knowledge of the safety procedures.
I'm in favor of strict regulation of firearms - but I think it's not a bad idea to teach rifle safety early. This shooting was a terrible thing, but it's highly unusual for something like this to happen.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 May 13 - 06:42 AM

You've got to admit, Joe, that such incidents would be even more unusual if parents were not stupid enough to buy a lethal weapon for a fourth birthday, and compound that stupidity by leaving it available in a corner of the living room, loaded or not! If the kid was as used to it as they claim, what would have stopped him from keeping a round or two in his pocket, and loading the bloody thing himself?

Not the parents apparently!

Don T.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 02 May 13 - 07:51 AM

This story, with it's pictures of cute child-sized candy-coloured guns, reminds me that it's probably a good idea for parents to stop filling fizzy-pop bottles with industrial strength bleach, and leaving it in the fridge where their little children might possibly have one of those "crazy accidents" referred to above.
Or are "crazy accidents" the UNpredictable kind?

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 May 13 - 08:46 AM

the kid whose genes should have been eliminated from the gene pool is the one who pulled the trigger

Not at all - we're talking about transmission of the parents' genetic makeup.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Bobert
Date: 02 May 13 - 09:39 AM

The 5 year old felt threatened and was just standing his ground...

B~

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Bettynh
Date: 02 May 13 - 11:46 AM

It's so easy to be glib about this. Blame the parents, blame the kid, blame guns. But for me it's a bigger issue of parenting and these times. I must say I've never lived with a gun in the house. It's just not a part of my life, but I understand that some people do.

I do, however, live with lethal tools and raised a pair of very active boys. When they were about 3, while I was cooking supper, they took a pair of very sharp scissors from a (not high enough) shelf, climbed over the couch into the bay window, and used the scissors to prune the brand new 10-foot-tall lace curtains up about 3 feet. After my tears, I had a decision to make, and I think it was the right one. Tools can be dangerous and they can be useful. My children needed to understand that, and in the long run I wanted them to use tools. I found them non-pointed but sharp enough scissors to use. They started cutting up potatoes with knives (just butter knives, but that will do for a cooked potato) for salad. We built things of wood with real hammers and nails. By the time they were 7 or 8, they were allowed to buy jackknives. My dad always carried one in his pocket. They by then knew what knives were, and there were rules (mostly for the neighborhood kids - they had to stand back at least arm's length to watch my guys whittle). There were accidents, but none were serious and certainly none were malicious. When they arrived at school, my kids had to deal with "childrens' scissors" that were so dull and loose that they didn't work and a total ban on even carrying a folded knife anywhere on school property.

They also knew that dead was dead. Whenever a pet or wild animal died near our home, we'd have a viewing for a day or two. (We had the privilege of having a road-killed owl for one day). We'd draw kids from blocks around, just to see. Then we'd all bury the animal in the back yard. IF we'd had guns, the very first thing I would have done is kill something with it. Perhaps eat that something as well, if hunting was the point.   But even if target shooting was the point, killing one bird or squirrel and having a good look at the result would be the very first lesson about what guns are.

So I'm making an effort here to turn this thread from name-calling, easy finger-pointing and various other blame games. Let's have some stories about kids and tools or lethal weapons!

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 02 May 13 - 12:46 PM

I think it's appalling to market killing instruments to kids as fun toys in candy-colours. I also think that killing an animal for the sake of ensuring that a child doesn't get the wrong idea about a pretty candy-coloured killing instrument masquerading as a toy, actually being a toy, is missing the point. No four or five year old should be out in the countryside being encouraged to kill things, not unless you actually WANT a culture of killing to prevail. Four and five year olds should be out in the countryside cooing over baby bunnies, not using them for shooting practise.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Bettynh
Date: 02 May 13 - 02:30 PM

OK, kill a teddy bear. And leave those baby bunnies alone! Mama bunnies will bite. Looking at a dead thing, really looking, isn't likely to foster a "culture of killing." Hiding the wounds and blank gaze of a dead body will do far more, I think, to foster just that. And I agree that potentially dangerous things shouldn't come in candy colors. Have you ever looked at the attractive colors of Black & Decker tools?

IF you choose to give a gun to a child (I didn't then and wouldn't now), that child should be made aware immediately of the damage that TOOL can do. Teaching "rules" just isn't enough.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 02 May 13 - 03:09 PM

4 other accidental shootings by toddlers in one week this past month... for the person above who said this was rare.

And what you say makes lots of sense to me, Bettynh.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 May 13 - 03:45 PM

Don T sez: You've got to admit, Joe, that such incidents would be even more unusual if parents were not stupid enough to buy a lethal weapon for a fourth birthday, and compound that stupidity by leaving it available in a corner of the living room, loaded or not!

Well, yeah, lots of stupid things wouldn't happen if stupid people weren't stupid. Still, in a gun culture, like the county where I live, I think that it's better to expose kids to responsible gun use before they start on their own without proper instruction.

Please be mindful that I have never owned a gun and would never allow a gun in my house - but where I live, people love their guns and can't be without them. That being the case, I want their children to be trained in gun safety before they start shooting at me when I'm hiking local trails.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 May 13 - 05:17 PM

can't be without them.

Why?

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 May 13 - 07:17 PM

Far better to take teh guns off the people.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: gnu
Date: 02 May 13 - 07:59 PM

Haven't read this thread since I left but I got a PM... I think it's an important question. I asked permission from that PMr to post this and it was granted.

That being "Personally, the idea of a real gun at 5 or less does make my hair stand up more than a little. One thought is, it's great to nudge kids toward creating things, but do you try to teach a 4 or 5 year old to use a circular saw or power plane? Or do you try to insure that a little child simply cannot touch some things, period, apart from immediate hands-on adult supervision."

My answer...

Nope. You teach a child that the porcelin figures of monks in a tea set are not a toy. You let them hold them and examine them and teach them how fragile they are and that they are "art" to be displayed for admiration as a decoration, like a picture hanging on the wall. A child understands the concept that a picture or painting is not a toy and that it is a "tool" for the mind. They then understand that porcelin figures are not toys as are some dolls. A child can also be taught that a gun is a tool and not a toy. Of course... when a gun and ammo are in any way accessible to a child, SOMEONE IS a TOOL and that never seems to get across to some people. However, to call for a complete ban on guns (which is what is gonna happen despite what ANYone says... read the countless threads) is stunned as me arse (read my countless posts).

Thanks for the PM. Any time ya wanna discuss any of it, I am here. But I refuse to be part of another gun thread with a bunch of uneducated people who can't be arsed to listen to reason and common sense. If you ever read any of my posts about my buddy who had his head chopped off and his wife sliced apart, I assume you understand my position on self defense with a firearm on one's own property.
*********************************************************************

That is (almost) all. I shall be back in in due time as per my last post unless someone does have anything new to talk about. If so, PM me if you give a shit for my opinion. Hahahaha! Otherwise, I can't be arsed with those who don't have the time to read past threads or otherwise educate themselves regarding the REAL problems with gun violence or gun laws which are bad gun laws. Once again... go ahead, shoot yourselves in your collective foots. The gun nuts are counting on it and you antigun nuts haven't let them down yet. Feed the fire that burns you.

gnightgnu

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 May 13 - 01:24 AM

Greg F, if you have the guts to go to my neighbors and take their guns away from them, you're a better man than I am. California may have a Democratic supermajority in the legislature, but this is also the home of the John Birch Society. And I'm in one of the most conservative counties in the country. Ain't nobody gonna take their guns from them. They'll have a pickup truck rebellion.

I've learned that I am an outsider here, and always will be. The people here are nice, as long as I'm careful what I say. I said something nice about Obamacare in the barber shop once, and I coulda swore I heard pistols cock amidst the silence that followed....

-Joe-

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 03 May 13 - 03:43 AM

'People love their guns and can't be without them...' Shouldn't this be 'People love their CHILDREN and can't be without them'? Are guns more loveable and indispensable than one's own offspring? One can't safely have both in the house. If one chooses the guns, one risks accidents, injury or, as we see, even death to a little one. As a choice, surely what is nowadays termed a 'no brainer'.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Bettynh
Date: 03 May 13 - 09:31 AM

:::big hug for Eliza:::

Neither Joe nor I own guns, but we do live in a society where other people regard them as necessary tools. Think carefully here - everything you just said can also apply to a hammer (or a pair of sharp pointed sewing scissors).

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 May 13 - 10:10 AM

The people here are nice, as long as I'm careful what I say.

Kinda like the way southerners treated (treat?) Blacks, you mean Joe? You afraid of getting lynched? Nice, law-abiding community you must live in. I sympathize.

But you didn't address the "why" they "can't be without'em".

Gurss they'd rather have their guns than their children.

Of course, when your talking about the Birch John Society types, you're talking about real lunatics.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Elmore
Date: 03 May 13 - 11:15 AM

I Don't like or own guns. I feel sorry for the people involved even if they are stupid.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,Futwick
Date: 03 May 13 - 12:10 PM

Who cares if they ban guns? Over 8 million new guns are put on the streets of America EVERY YEAR (yes, I looked it up). Ban them all you want, you'll never get rid of them. It will NEVER happen. There are already enough guns on the streets to arm every single person in this country. There is no way to get rid of that many.

In states like Michigan 700,000 deer have to be culled each year so that they don't overpopulate and even with that much annual culling, the deer population of Michigan is HUGE. Most Michigan cities have pockets of deer living WITHIN city limits (these are considered domesticated and strict laws are enforced against those who hunt them). Basically, wherever there are woods in Michigan, there are deer in them. I don't know if you've seen what happens when deer overpopulate but they will eat everything in sight. During the rutting season, deer are a hazard on the highways of Michigan--they are everywhere--live and dead! People have been killed smashing into deer at 50 mph. If deer come into your yard, kiss your garden goodbye. One leapt onto a guy's new car and crushed the hood. And if you think you can shoo them away--try it. A big buck with a large rack of antlers on his head is not scared of your puny ass. If you shoot him, you're in trouble.

There MUST be a deer-hunting season--MUST BE!!. The state's ecology and economy depend on it. I imagine many states are in similar situations. You can't ban guns. It will NOT happen.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 03 May 13 - 01:08 PM

Alright then, Futwick, DON'T ban them But take the consequences of deaths, deaths and more deaths. It's your choice over there.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,Futwick
Date: 03 May 13 - 01:29 PM

Neither Obama nor any gun control advocate (which includes me) want to ban them. That is a delusion of the sick gun nut NRA meme-infested mind. I simply believe that rather than give everybody a gun unless they prove they shouldn't have one, we should not give anyone a gun until they prove they can handle one responsibly.

Do I think a 4-yo should be given a gun? No, absolutely not. So why should I shrug this girl's death off as a consequence of my beliefs in the matter? And, just so it's known, I do not own a gun.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 03 May 13 - 06:30 PM

Why such a fuss, in a country where people shooting each other is a normal part of life and death?

Take this response: "And I want to shoot the fuckwit Coroner in the balls with a .357 Colt Python. I used to have one and it was a big revolver for a big boy and I was used to shooting the big gun. That would be just another of those crazy accidents too."

Admirably macho, Catspaw.

I'm with Greg. The victim had his parents' genes, so better for the species that her genes were taken out of the pool. Shoot away, folks, with my blessing, but try to keep it in the family.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 May 13 - 07:14 PM

Missed the point Fionn......First, I no longer own any guns although in my 20's I did enjoy shooting sports. Second, that was a simple play off the words of the Coroner....."little boy liked to shoot the little gun........crazy accident."

Don't read anything else into it 'cause it ain't there.........


Spaw

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,Futwick
Date: 03 May 13 - 10:54 PM

Right. Let's smirk at the victim--a 2-yo girl--that's what she gets for being born of two idiots.

I think we can see why Mudcat is in the shitter where it fucking belongs. What a fucking shithole of forum.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 May 13 - 10:57 PM

Nobody smirks at the victim, Futwick. That's ridiculous.


I think that in general, you cannot effectively criminalize something that is supported by a sizable minority. To attempt to do so, is to invite chaos. I think that the United States can enact some gun controls that will be supported by the vast majority of citizens, but this must be done carefully because the NRA opposition is powerful and dangerous.

Sure, I'd like a total ban on firearms - but I don't think that this is something that would work in the U.S. The reaction would be the same as the reaction to Prohibition, and maybe far worse than that.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST
Date: 04 May 13 - 11:45 AM

"Nobody smirks at the victim, Futwick. That's ridiculous."

Is that right? I would call the verbatim statements below smirking or pretty damn close to it.

"Look on the bright side - this is natural selection in operation. Perhaps it will improve the species."

"I'm with Greg. The victim had his parents' genes, so better for the species that her genes were taken out of the pool. Shoot away, folks, with my blessing, but try to keep it in the family."

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 13 - 01:24 PM

"Think carefully here - everything you just said can also apply to a hammer (or a pair of sharp pointed sewing scissors."
Utter nonsense - the purpose of a gun is to kill something or someone - nothing else.
For us who have no god-given or whatever right to own a gun it is just further confirmation that the US is one extremely sick and naused-up society.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 04 May 13 - 05:01 PM

Young children up to the age of eight or so have to be protected from any sort of risk/danger around the home. Sensible parents make sure that sharp tools, dangerous chemicals such as bleach etc, even window- blind cords in a loop, garden ponds and pools, plastic bags, open fires are inaccessible and safely locked away or guarded. Most parents assess their home automatically for dangers and keep their children safe. What they don't do ( well, not here in UK anyway) is hand over to a small child a working firearm, explain how to use it and leave it lying around charged with ammunition. It's preposterous and almost incredible that any parent would even consider such a lunatic thing. I'm so sorry the little girl was shot and killed, but really, they were just asking for a terrible tragedy to happen. I only hope they can forgive themselves in time, and come to terms with the loss of a little innocent tot. Very, very sad.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 04 May 13 - 05:46 PM

It's very hard for the irrensponsible to teach responsibility.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,Killer Gene
Date: 04 May 13 - 06:03 PM

Maybe the reason Americans are so intent on murdering each other is that a high percentage of them are either Irish, who, historically, seem prone to kill each other, or English, who, historically, seem prone to kill everyone

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 04 May 13 - 06:35 PM

Well ok, Spaw, but I wasn't alluding to anything that wasn't there. I guess what seems so extraordinary, not only here in the UK but also in various other countries I have travelled around in, is the detailed - almost obsessive - knowledge that perfectly normal people in the US have from a young age about firearms, and love to parade.

There cannot be a civilised country in the world that comes close to the US in this respect. But I take Joe's point: there's no answer.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 May 13 - 07:41 PM

""Maybe the reason Americans are so intent on murdering each other is that a high percentage of them are either Irish, who, historically, seem prone to kill each other, or English, who, historically, seem prone to kill everyone""

Oh very helpful, considering that the whole nineteenth century in the USA was punctuated by the sound of private citizens filling each other with lead.

Come to think of it, maybe the quantity of lead in the air during that time has some bearing on the mental state of those who value guns above their children and their fellow man.

Don T.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 May 13 - 07:52 PM

I think it might be easy for Europeans and others to get the feeling that guns are everywhere in the U.S. They really aren't. I think I may see a civilian with a gun once every couple of years, maybe less often. I do hear gunshots out here in the country every week or two, and I imagine it's a neighbor doing target practice. There is one neighbor whose target range lines up with a trail we hike frequently, and that's a cause for concern. If we hear gunshots when we're there, we yell really loud - that's happened three or four times in the ten years I've been here. But I never saw the people, and never saw the guns - I just heard 'em.

But here in a county that has a very strong pro-gun culture, I rarely see guns.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 May 13 - 09:17 PM

While gun sales are up, fewer new people are entering the gun market and the actual number of gun owners is 34% (legal ages). Where there used to be a gun addict with 8 or 10 guns, they now have sometimes doubled or tripled there number owned.


Spaw

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 05 May 13 - 12:14 AM

With due respect, most of the Irish Immigration to the US took place in the 19th Century, given that, most of the shooting that was done during the 19th century was related to military actions of one sort or another--the Civil War, and a rather nasty British Invasion being two noteworthy examples.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 05 May 13 - 03:08 AM

Well no doubt during the Stone Age we ALL went around bashing people over the head with clubs and transfixing them with spears etc. The point is not what has happened in history but the state of affairs now. And 34 per cent of a population owning a gun is astonishing, not reassuring. If it pertained here, it would mean that one in every three of my neighbours in my village would be a gun owner. Unimaginable!

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 May 13 - 04:06 AM

British invasion my arse. Attempt to reduce an illegal revolution.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 13 - 04:14 AM

" USA was punctuated by the sound of private citizens filling each other with lead."
Not to mention slaughtering the indigenous population
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 May 13 - 09:40 AM

I think I may see a civilian with a gun once every couple of years, maybe less often.

Guess you're not in Texas, Idaho, or Alabama, eh Joe?

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 13 - 10:48 AM

"Attempt to reduce an illegal revolution."
Aren't all revolutions, by their very nature "illegal" Richard?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 05 May 13 - 01:37 PM

Maybe if the parents were charged with manslaughter? Or even criminal neglect?

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 May 13 - 04:29 PM

Dick, its way past time that stupidity was criminalized.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 May 13 - 05:32 PM

""Pistols, Rifles and Shotguns and Miscellaneous Firearms (whatever that means).

6,541,886 manufactured in 2011
3,250,000 bought in from abroad
9,791,886 TOTAL (in addition to those already in existence)

All told, the firearms industry contributes more than $33 billion to the U.S. economy and supports about 220,000 jobs, according to the National Shooting Sports Foundation. That's more than double the North American payrolls of General Motors.""

There are 88.8 guns per 100 people, and they are still making more.

I realise that this doesn't mean that 89 out of every 100 USAians have a gun.

Obviously some have multiple guns and others constitute small pockets of sanity (much too small and many too few).

Don T.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 05 May 13 - 09:39 PM

The War of 1812, Richard.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,Futwick
Date: 05 May 13 - 10:04 PM

In 2010, over 8.5 million new guns were put on the streets. So, in 2010 and 2011 combined, we're talking over 18 million new guns were put on the streets of America.

But somehow, Obama is taking everyone's guns away and trashing the 2nd Amendment in spite of Congress trashing his gun control agenda. What an amazing man!

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 06 May 13 - 03:18 PM

"Now we'll have the NRA saying that if the two year old had a gun she'd be alive today."

I think you nailed it there Don. Wayne LaPierre needs to go. His spiel is doing more harm than good to gun owners and non-gun owners alike.

Guns would have aided in that situation in Boston? Really? I'm sorry Wayne, but that's crazy talk.

I am not a gun owner. They never interested me. Never held one. Just the same, I am inclined to respect both camps. But I would make a bold distinction between responsible and irresponsible gun ownership.

If I were the DA, I would have charged the parents with endangering the welfare of a child. In a jury of their peers, they might be acquitted, just the same, I'd make them as uncomfortable as possible. I would put parents on notice that I expect them to be responsible for what happens with firearms in the hands of their children when they are the ones providing access.

And you're right Jim. Revolutions are, by their very nature "illegal." Revolutionaries are terrorists, insurgents, radicals, criminals and every other damned thing- unless they win.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 06 May 13 - 06:09 PM

I do feel that the Coroner's assessment of the tragedy being 'just one of those crazy accidents' was startlingly dismissive and inappropriate. You'd think the little boy had merely broken a window rather than shot his small sister dead. The parents were undeniably negligent and irresponsible. I imagine their punishment will be to have to live with the memory of the little girl's death for the rest of their lives. But marketing guns especially for children, with attractive designs meant to appeal to the very young, is weird and indefensible. There should immediately be passed a law preventing this. Guns are not a good idea for civilian adults. They are definitely NOT for the hands of children.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 May 13 - 06:41 PM

the Coroner's assessment of the tragedy... was startlingly dismissive and inappropriate

More evidence of the need to criminalize stupidity.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,SPB at work
Date: 07 May 13 - 09:15 AM

Well those are the liberties you hold dear as a nation, so wouldn't a few kids getting their brains blown out be a price worth paying?? it definitely would NOT be here.

"Guns would have aided in that situation in Boston? " - well it might have saved three lives if every student who carries a backpack is taken out - just in case. Why stop there, do you really know what a pensioner has in her shopping trolley?

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Bettynh
Date: 07 May 13 - 11:23 AM

For the record and then I'm done with this thread:

"Why such a fuss, in a country where people shooting each other is a normal part of life and death?" People don't normally shoot each other here. Guns are most often used as tools for hunting or target sports. I believe people who carry guns for "self-protection" or stockpile them for the coming Armageddon are a minority of gun owners (although they may own the majority of guns).

I do not believe "that the whole nineteenth century in the USA was punctuated by the sound of private citizens filling each other with lead."

I do not believe "during the Stone Age we ALL went around bashing people over the head with clubs and transfixing them with spears etc."

"Americans are so intent on murdering each other..." Nope, don't believe that.

"Well those are the liberties you hold dear as a nation, so wouldn't a few kids getting their brains blown out be a price worth paying??" Nobody said that.

And I don't believe, "Young children up to the age of eight or so have to be protected from any sort of risk/danger around the home." If I had waited until they were eight, my boys would have been in real danger. They needed to be engaged in modifying their own behavior waaaay before that.

As for, "Guns would have aided in that situation in Boston?" There were plenty of guns there - they didn't help at all.

I don't believe that I live in "a country where people shooting each other is a normal part of life and death"

It saddens me no end that so many people have such a warped view of American life and are so smug and gleeful in expressing their disdain.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 May 13 - 12:49 PM

1812 - UK attempts to reduce illegal invasions of British territory, and illegal slaughter of indigenous populations by an illegal revolutionary government (now called the USA).

1922 Jim - an illegal revolution by people lawfully ruled by England since the early 1600s.


They ceased to be illegal when England in both cases surrendered - but not until.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 May 13 - 12:55 PM

But to return to the topic - this death is as much due to the unbelievable laxity of the US legal system as to stupidity.

If there had been no gun (as would have been the case in England) there would have been no death. If, as would have been the case in the very rare cases in the UK where rifles are lawfully kept in the home, they would have been in a locked gun cabinet securely fixed to the structure of the dwelling.

Has anyone got real US statistics for the proportion of food that is procured by hunting compared to that which is not (and that which is wasted)? I am in little doubt that there is no rational case to defend hunting for food. Hunting for sport is morally repugnant, like all other deliberate infliction of suffering.

We know where the "right to bear arms" for "self defence" and to "stand one's ground" leads. Trayvon. There is no rational case for the US love of hot lead.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 May 13 - 01:45 PM

Bloody hell! I'm in total agreement with everything Richard said!
Now I'm worried! :-)

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,Futwick
Date: 07 May 13 - 05:02 PM

Whether anyone finds hunting morally repugnant is frankly laughable. So what? There MUST be deer-hunting in Michigan--period. Is deer meat consumed by deer hunters? You bet it is. I get several pounds of venison every year from friends and coworkers who hunt. There are places that process deer meat--take your kill to them and they will turn it into steak, sausage and you name it. And it's good! Bothers you? Tough shit. From a Government of Michigan website:

In the late 1980s, the Department of Natural Resources reaffirmed its goal of 1.3 million deer in the fall herd (which was biologically the same as the 1971 goal of 1 million deer in the spring herd) and continues to work toward that goal. Unfortunately, the large deer herd has begun to have a significant impact on their own habitat and the habitats of other animals. In some areas, they have nearly eliminated certain plants, which may provide food and or shelter for other wildlife.

The build-up of deer in urban and suburban areas has also become a challenge. Other than fencing, nonlethal control methods have usually been unsuccessful or impractical, and lethal controls have eventually been applied. Management of deer in urban and suburban settings will provide many future opportunities for public education and involvement.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 May 13 - 06:34 PM

""I do not believe "that the whole nineteenth century in the USA was punctuated by the sound of private citizens filling each other with lead.""

Which would seem to clash with the stories of range wars, the guerilla activities of Quantrell and "Bloody Bill" Anderson and the need for town tamers such as Hickock, the Earps, Bat Masterson etc. etc, not to mention the "Indian Wars" and the Civil War.

Even allowing that their stories were somewhat exaggerated, the Colt .45 calibre that most of them used was actually named "Peacemaker", which suggests that Boot Hill may have been the most, and in some cases the only, peaceful place in the nineteenth century USA.

It gives me no pleasure at all to point out to people I would classify as friends that the path they are on leads to more, not less, killing of innocents, and I am very far from feeling smug and gleeful when I do so.

I look at their situation from a place which once had the same problems, but where I can now walk the streets at night in safety and often do, and I feel a deep and abiding sadness that they cannot (apparently) see beyond the outdated and outmoded comments of men who could not have foreseen the changes to come, nor the effect of what they chose to enshrine in a document, upon a totally different society 237 years later.

Genuine heartfelt sadness for the innocent victims and the families condemned to mourn their lost ones till the day they die.

Don T.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 May 13 - 07:00 PM

Futwick - letting a bunch of idiots loose with lethal weapons is not a clever answer to deer overpopulation. An ORGANISED cull might be. On the other hand I suppose a mirror argument could be made about dangerous bipeds.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,Futwick
Date: 07 May 13 - 08:03 PM

Richard, deer-hunting season IS an organized cull. The DNR counts the deer and decide how many can be harvested in a season and a meticulous count is kept. Usually, only bucks of a certain age may be taken although I think there may be an occasional doe season but it's certainly not normally allowed. There's also a bow season during which guns are absolutely prohibited. Bow hunters generally don't take many deer, though. You have to have a gun season to cull the population. Deer hunters are overwhelmingly cooperative in what they take. Killing a doe or fawn or taking deer out of season is strongly prohibited and those who get caught doing it never do it again. Other hunters will turn you in if they see you doing it. Deer hunters are generally not a bunch of idiots as they come from all walks of life--factory-workers, office-workers, lawyers, bankers, craftsmen, even housewives. White-tailed deer is BY FAR the biggest game animal in Michigan and populations are found in ALL counties in Michigan and I mean literally ALL.

If deer-hunting was banned, the DNR would have to kill thousands of deer from helicopters and leave the carcasses to rot. It just isn't practical. Deer-hunting is very well organized and is the ONLY effective measure of holding the deer population to a sustainable level. It is a passion here and it is a necessity.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 08 May 13 - 03:10 AM

Not smugness and glee, but total disgust.

Disgust with a nation that has laws that allow young children to own an object for which the sole purpose of its design is to kill.

Disgust with a nation that in spite of shooting tragedies being a regular occurence still insists in voting for politicians who block any attempt to control access to firearms.

Disgust with a nation that proactively promotes firearm ownership and is not able to make the connection that the easier it is to buy firearms, the easier it is for murderers to buy firearms.

Disgust with a nation that remains collectively defensive every time there is a new tragedy instead of hanging its head in shame.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 May 13 - 04:07 AM

Amen.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 08 May 13 - 04:15 AM

Deer-culling IS practised here in UK, and is more than ever necessary as the deer population has increased enough to be causing problems. But the culling is done by licensed people, who have to register like anyone else an Application to own a firearm, and be approved after a Police check. There are restrictions on when and how they cull, and they take specifically-chosen animals. We don't just allow the general public to whizz off into the countryside bristling with massive automatic weapons and let fly at anything that moves, hitching the carcasses to their bumpers. Private shoots ( for game of many sorts) are organised on a person's land, again under strict control. There are also gun clubs and firing ranges for sport, all tightly controlled. So we aren't paranoid about guns, we're just sensible and careful, with the Police involved in approval, verifying and inspecting arms and their storage. There really is NO need for the whole population to be armed to the teeth with every sort of weapon, at any age, brandishing lethal purchases from any old gunshop and killing anything which moves including people. Total madness.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 May 13 - 05:11 AM

Oh shit. Now I agree with Eliza.   This is getting very worrying - I have agreed with (or been agreed with by) Don Thompson, Mither, Primitive Tribesman, the other one who changed his name, and now her.   Who AM I turning into?   Mind you I agree with Steve Shaw a lot too.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 May 13 - 05:51 AM

""This is getting very worrying - I have agreed with (or been agreed with by) Don Thompson, Mither, Primitive Tribesman, the other one who changed his name, and now her.   Who AM I turning into?   Mind you I agree with Steve Shaw a lot too.""

Just goes to show that once we get you off the subject of UK Politics, you are quite a sensible fellow.

Don T.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 May 13 - 07:37 AM

Pot, kettle?

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 May 13 - 05:53 AM

INDUBITABLY!

Don T.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 May 13 - 06:08 AM

See you on the 18th, then, and you can bring your ouija board and see which of us Jacqui agrees with...

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 May 13 - 01:21 PM

You know she rarely agreed with you in public.

Don T.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 17 May 13 - 10:18 AM

Guns don't kill kids. Kids kill kids. (nod to Garry Trudeau).

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,Futwick
Date: 17 May 13 - 10:43 AM

"There really is NO need for the whole population to be armed to the teeth with every sort of weapon, at any age, brandishing lethal purchases from any old gunshop and killing anything which moves including people. Total madness."

Thanks for that info. I wasn't aware that I was advocating that.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,Futwick
Date: 17 May 13 - 11:29 AM

The crazy thing is, there was recently another case of an 8yo shooting his 5yo brother in the head with a .22 rifle and then the VERY NEXT DAY I read about a 4yo shooting a 6yo neighbor in the head with a .22 rifle. And all this came on the heels of a 3yo shooting a deputy's wife to death because the idiots left a handgun where a kid could pick it up and obviously weren't watching.

You would think after the boy shot his sister that people would think twice about leaving weapons unattended around children and they obviously don't. What does it take? These people think that these other people were stupid and that won't happen with his kid because his kid is smart and knows gun safety. How can you get through to people that damned dense? That's why we can't get any meaningful gun control laws passed, these are the kinds of fucking idiots we're dealing with--the face of the NRA

Then all these cases, the only time charges were filed against anyone was the case of the 4yo shooting the 6yo--his father is being charged. Why aren't they being charged across the board?? Because they've suffered enough?? I don't give a shit! It shows how lax we are as a nation about stupid behavior and firearms. And it's obvious this will keep happening because we are determined not to learn from the stupidity of others.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 May 13 - 12:47 PM

Any problem of there being too many deer only arises where the natural predators have been wiped out. Wolves do the job better, and might well be less likely to kill people than unregulated hunters with overpowered weapons.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,Futwick
Date: 17 May 13 - 01:23 PM

It doesn't matter. If there are too many deer then there are too many deer.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 17 May 13 - 01:53 PM

I'm not sure if deer in UK have any natural predators. We have no wolves (only the football variety) and the only other way they are killed is on the roads. I expect the very hard winters we've had recently have reduced their numbers a tiny bit, but here in Norfolk for example there are blooming deer of all kinds everywhere! (I like them, but they do destroy woodland habitats and munch your garden vegetables, especially the little muntjacs.)

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: gnu
Date: 17 May 13 - 04:02 PM

I saw yet another gun tread was at over 100 posts so I decided to check back in and the last few posts only.

McGrath... "Any problem of there being too many deer only arises where the natural predators have been wiped out. Wolves do the job better, and might well be less likely to kill people than unregulated hunters with overpowered weapons."

Buddy, ya gotta read more. And, on toppa that, man IS a natural predator. He's got canine teeth and guns that do a far more humane job than any other predator when he kills. 99.999999% of deer killed by humans have no idea they are dead meat until they are. Being chased by wolves and brought down savagely and eaten while still alive? I think if the deer had to "like" a predator on Facebook, they would like me and my dirty thirty over a wolf any day.

Only a hundred posts so far? Where is your spirit? Gee whiz and golly gosh, given that there are thousands and thousands of posts on previous gun threads, you lot are sorely slack on commenting on shit you know nothing about. That ain't the Mudcat I know and love.

See you in another hundred posts or so.

Oh yeah... for those that don't know my stance on gun control... I am all for good gun laws and vehemently opposed to bad gun laws. If you really do wanna know my stance and WHY you can read MANY MANY MANY of my posts over YEARS herein. If ye can't be arsed to do so or to read up and educate yourselves... the NRA wins. Your call.

gnightgnu

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 May 13 - 02:46 AM

"Only a hundred posts so far? Where is your spirit? Gee whiz and golly gosh, given that there are thousands and thousands of posts on previous gun threads, you lot are sorely slack on commenting on shit you know nothing about. That ain't the Mudcat I know and love."

Maybe we're sick and tired of talking to bone-heads. You can't educate pork.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 May 13 - 03:20 AM

@Don Thompson - and even less frequently with you!

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 May 13 - 03:42 AM

WTF??

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: s&r
Date: 18 May 13 - 07:45 AM

When I started this thread it was with sorrow, horror and bewilderment at a situation that can allow such dreadful occurrences. In my book not just another gun thread, and not much to do with culling deer.

Stu

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,Futwick
Date: 18 May 13 - 09:07 AM

It all ties together. As soon as you open a dialogue on guns, you get two kinds of extremists: those who want to give anyone any type of arms they want in any quantity and those who want to ban all guns and neither side cares about the consequences of their stances. Moreover neither side will give an inch on their stances and admit that going to such extremes is a not very good idea and will offer up the lamest of reasons why their stance is correct.

The point is, guns are here to stay--like it or not. So we need a dialogue based on at least understanding that much--they are here to stay and that they DO have good uses such as the culling of animals that would otherwise overpopulate and cause a starvation crisis. And it certainly is not just the US that has over-the-top mass murderers with firearms. Even in other countries where firearms are nearly non-existent in comparison have their problems of an idiot with a gun or have we already forgotten about Dunblaine? No amount of banning can prevent that.

However, such massacres are certainly far less around the world than what goes on in the US and so the US could benefit from either more gun control laws or more stringent application of current gun laws--probably a bit of both.

But the problem, as I see it, is not so much the availability of guns so much as it is what can be summed up in three letters: NRA. The NRA is THE major impediment to a safer society. Banning assault rifles would do nothing to prevent little kids from shooting each other with .22 rifles. It's the mindset that kids should have guns at all that is the problem here. It's the mindset of believing your kid doesn't need adult supervision and that people who think they do are just liberal faggots who need both barrels of a shotgun shoved up their arses. That is the mindset fostered and defended by the NRA whose ONLY purpose to make money for the gun industry regardless of how many innocent people have to die to keep those profits rolling in. Until that mindset changes, this type of tragedy simply can't be stopped with any amount of legislation.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 18 May 13 - 10:33 AM

Eliza:
I'm not sure if deer in UK have any natural predators. We have no wolves (only the football variety) and the only other way they are killed is on the roads.

There are no natural predators other than man, but to say the only way they're killed is on the roads is just not true....deer are culled in the UK in significant numbers, from stalking in Scotland to less publicised culling in England and Wales. They're not culled in sufficient numbers though, hence the population explosion in the last 15-20 years.

I've recently been the beneficiary of venison donations from near Forres and from Devon, both of which had been shot. Closer to home I've regularly enjoyed venison in Kent which had been shot by a farming friend.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 May 13 - 11:13 AM

I haven't posted on the Cat for weeks. Fed up with all the confrontation. But when humane, intelligent people like Joe Offer write glibly and complacently about living 'in a gun culture, like the county where I live', as if that was some sort of law of nature about which nothing can be done, rather than the sign of a nation which has just plain got it wrong for nearly 300 years, then I jump in yet again:~~

to say that it isn't a law of nature; constitutional amendments can be repealed [like Prohibition, for instance], when they are shown to be anti-social and counterproductive. If you wanted to do something about your dysfunctional gun laws then you could do it in next to no time, with adequate legal research and the will to achieve it, just as you could find a cure for a disease which was regularly killing off a small but perennial proportion of your population. But you're just all running too pathetically scared of your loathsome NRA to the point of acute nationwide mental paralysis from which practically none of you seems immune. ("We live in a gun culture" -- aaaarrrrrgggghhhhhh!).

So stop being so feeble, for heaven's sake, with your "gun cultures" and your "2nd amendments" and all the rest of your pathetic special pleading in the face of persistent abuse which makes you a perpetual hissing and byword to other civilised nations.

As if... Go back to sleep Michael!

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,Futwick
Date: 18 May 13 - 12:15 PM

Nobody's scared of the NRA. But they have a lot of political power. They own politicians. They don't have to pass anything, they just need enough votes to block any gun control legislation from passing and that's what they did. In this case, it was a wasted effort because that particular legislation would not have prevented kids accidentally killing other kids.

The ONLY thing that will stop that is changing the mindset of parents who think their kids are too smart and safety-conscious to ever do anything stupid with a gun. And it's obvious from how often these tragedies occur that these people don't care. And warning them is pointless because they get indignant with their "Don't you tell me how to raise my kid, you Obama-loving faggot! You're the one destroying this country!" And then they practice even less gun safety than they otherwise would because they're going to show you and your tree-hugging liberal fag ass how REAL Americans handle guns, goddamn you!!

I submit that this attitude cannot be changed. It infects probably half of all Americans and definitely affects the vast majority of gun-owners. The NRA does what it can to foster this mentality in gun-owners because it sells more guns and more ammo. Any attempt to restrict sales of a certain type of firearm CAUSES a run on the sales of that weapon putting more of them on the street than ever before. Gun sellers, in fact, use this as a sales tactic in gun magazines and websites: "Get this little baby while it's still legal because it may not be after August 12th!!!" And they do--they buy themselves that little baby. I know a guy who bought an AR-15 recently. When I asked him what he needed it for, his answer was: "I don't have any need for it, I just want one." That mentality, I humbly submit to you, canNOT be changed.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 May 13 - 02:45 AM

Yes it can. I'll spell it out again. When there is some physical illness that kedps carrying off a regular proportion of the population, then we divert the best available medical brains to finding a cure. They haven't managed it for cancer yet, but they will. Most other former killers have now succumbed to the power of medical science. Not too many die of TB [the old dreaded 'consumption'] these days.

Well, you over there have such an illness rife among you, killing a small but regular proportion of your demographic. It's called 'gun crime'. The cause is well known to ewvery one of you. It is your fatuous and useless gun laws [that bloody second amendment as misinterpreted practically universally over there].

So -- do you call together all the best available legal, sociological, and psychiatric minds to tackle the disease? Do you hell! ~~ Instead, you go on incessantly beating your breasts crying "Eheu eheu, we shall have to live with it for ever. The people, god bless 'em, would never tolerate any cure."

Pathetic!.

~M~

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 May 13 - 05:16 AM

""So we need a dialogue based on at least understanding that much--they are here to stay and that they DO have good uses such as the culling of animals that would otherwise overpopulate and cause a starvation crisis.""

That is a compelling argument for the carefully controlled keeping and use of hunting firearms by rural people who can distinuish between a cow, a deer and the next door neighbour.

Tell me though Futwick, how many deer do you suppose are shot in city centres using automatic pistols or revolvers?

I think you'll find that humans shot (of all ages) far outnumber game or vermin.

Don T.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 May 13 - 05:21 AM

""Even in other countries where firearms are nearly non-existent in comparison have their problems of an idiot with a gun or have we already forgotten about Dunblaine? No amount of banning can prevent that.""

Wrong example! His guns were licenced, so a ban would have prevented the Dunblane killings.

As to why they were licenced, that's another mystery.

Don T.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 May 13 - 08:23 AM

Nobody's scared of the NRA.

Christ, they SHOULD be - them and the "militia" and "patriot" nut case anti-government hate groups they support & vice versa.

Better re-check the story of Tim McVeigh, et. al.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Donuel
Date: 19 May 13 - 09:03 AM

OK Everybody, get a load of this...

I was thinking about divide and control ideas and thought about how the Insurance industry is much bigger than the NRA.

ergo we need only pass a law for liability insurance, similar to car manufacturers and drivers AND apply it to guns. Good for owners and victims but bad for the NRA and the tpes of creeps who make and sell guns like the Criket 22 to 5 year olds.

Insurance companies would welcome a whole new profit industry written by themselves and for themselves. In the battle of the Titans of Insurance vs. Gun Manufacturers, my money is on the Insurance giants.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Megan L
Date: 19 May 13 - 09:14 AM

The see saw

When I was a little boy
The see saw was my favourite toy
But every time I tried to play
One of my brothers would always say

You can't play around here kid
We sit on either side
You can't sit in the middle lad
So run away and hide

I grew a bit and went to school
I worked so hard was no mans fool
When we ran to the sports field to play
The other kids would always say

You can't play around here kid
We play on either side
You can't sit in the middle lad
So run away and hide

And now I am a man full-grown
Far from family with a home of my own
Yet on the Internet I try to play
There's always people there who say

You can't play around here kid
We sit on either side
You can't sit in the middle lad
So run away and hide

mhtbl

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,Futwick
Date: 19 May 13 - 10:07 AM

"Yes it can. I'll spell it out again. When there is some physical illness that kedps carrying off a regular proportion of the population, then we divert the best available medical brains to finding a cure. They haven't managed it for cancer yet, but they will. Most other former killers have now succumbed to the power of medical science. Not too many die of TB [the old dreaded 'consumption'] these days."

Well, when they develop a vaccine against stupidity and feelings of entitlement please be sure to let me know.

"That is a compelling argument for the carefully controlled keeping and use of hunting firearms by rural people who can distinuish between a cow, a deer and the next door neighbour. Tell me though Futwick, how many deer do you suppose are shot in city centres using automatic pistols or revolvers?"

When did I say that everybody should be armed against everybody else?

"Wrong example! His guns were licenced, so a ban would have prevented the Dunblane killings."

Wrong thing to say! I was pointing out that guns are here to stay, there can be no fully banning them and so massacres will happen and that they aren't confined to the US. By your logic, if we ban all cars there wouldn't be anymore drunken driving accidents. That would be true if we could ban all cars. If I'm wrong then why weren't guns banned in Scotland? Someone will ALWAYS have them.

"Christ, they SHOULD be - them and the "militia" and "patriot" nut case anti-government hate groups they support & vice versa. Better re-check the story of Tim McVeigh, et. al."

Fine, you go cower in the corner, little boy. Let us men do your fighting for you.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Donuel
Date: 19 May 13 - 10:16 AM

WE have the means to make stem cells out of skin cells.
My wife is directly involved in this research.

but no Fucnit, there is no vaccine against willful ignorance.

There is a vaccine in development that works on the bottom stem of the flu virus and not just the head knob which changes every year making new strains that bypass last years immunity.

It is sort of a universal flu vaccine that could be stockpiled.
but don't hold your breath for your universal innoculation.
Sesquestraion and politics is sure to eventually screw this discovery up

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 May 13 - 12:02 PM

"Well, when they develop a vaccine against stupidity and feelings of entitlement please be sure to let me know."
.,,.
Certainly. Good that you acknowledge yourself so much in need of it.
===============
"Fine, you go cower in the corner, little boy. Let us men do your fighting for you."
.,,.
Ah, yes ~~ armed to the teeth with automatic weapons. What could be more manly indeed!

~M~

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,Futwick
Date: 19 May 13 - 01:26 PM

I am a gun control advocate who has wasted too much time arguing with knee-jerk PC liberals like you who think we could or should ban ALL guns which won't and can't happen. That doesn't mean I like guns. It means I am trying to present myself to gun owners as someone who is trying to be reasonable rather than as some rabid jerk who wants to take all their guns away. Until both sides find common ground there is no solution. I DO NOT OWN A GUN. I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT MOST PEOPLE SHOULD OWN GUNS. I've stated this already but you apparently have a comprehension problem which you replace unsuccessfully with the snarky, smart-ass idiocy that passes for brains on mudcat.

The fact that there is a place for guns in our culture and that do they do serve legitimate beneficial purposes sticks in your craw and I'm sorry you feel that way but otherwise I don't care. The facts are the facts whether you can accept them or not.

I am not afraid of the NRA, they are bozos and Wayne LaPierre is the head clown. They're the people who talk about shooting blacks who try to move into their neighborhoods but as soon as it happens, they are the first tacking up the "For Sale" signs on the lawn ready to flee from the oh-so-uncivilized colored hordes. They have a powerful lobby, however, and have forced their agenda by buying congresspeople to kill off gun control efforts. The public then loses interest and we have to wait for the next massacre to get it started again. So the problem is really the apathetic public who give up to the gun lobby to easily. They can be reached because most of them want better gun control measures but will not listen to loonies who want to take all guns away. With hardline extremists like you, who needs the NRA to destroy gun control dialogue in this country?

And when you develop your vaccine that will make all gun owners see everything from your point of view, be sure to pass a law requiring them to line up for their shots or get thrown in jail. You'll build your master race yet, by god.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Bill D
Date: 19 May 13 - 03:18 PM

Sadly, there are layers to the embedded gun culture that are more complex than the tendency of 'folk' to 'folk process' old songs.

1)Guns are fascinating! Even people who would never dream of using one in anger, but were raised with guns around, love to collect and compare notes on them. The USA was created with guns..(even more sadly in many respects).

2)We have this ambiguous phrase in the 2nd amendment that 'sorta' says we can have them. To change an amendment requires a tortuous path of getting some brave legislators to introduce the idea, then getting other legislators who see their very election dependent on money from NRA lobbyists and other conservative factions...then IF 2/3 ofboth houses of Congress were to *gasp* pass such legislation, the new amendment must be ratified by ¾ of all the states withing a certain amount of time.

3)There are already so many firearms ...legal AND illegal.. out there, that any ban or limit would have almost no chance of making a dent in the total numbers. This is compounded by the fact that many of the militia-oriented 2nd amendment fanatics would take a ban or limitation as PROOF that their paranoid fears were true and that they needed to 'resist' and enter armed rebellion against their fascist government!

4)Since the latest 'incidents', sales of ammunition have gone thru the roof! Makers can barely keep up.


I can't think of a similar issue that you would recognize in the UK....maybe trying to ban fish & chips?

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 19 May 13 - 04:14 PM

Or trying to enforce a ban on drugs?

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 May 13 - 05:37 PM

Fine, you go cower in the corner, little boy.

Fut you too, FuckWick!

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 May 13 - 05:04 AM

"Fine, you go cower in the corner, little boy. Let us men do your fighting for you."

Well Fuckwit, you were doing fine, sounding fairly convincing, until you dropped out that little gem.

That's the kind of testosterone-overloaded horse-shit we're sick and tired of hearing from small-dick gun-nuts on here and elsewhere. It's nothing more than loud-mouth bluster, and it gains neither the gun-nut clowns nor you any respect or credit.

With attitudes like the one you showed us above, the only thing you're demonstrating is that your country is fucked.

You blew it.

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: GUEST,Futwick
Date: 20 May 13 - 12:00 PM

LOL! Look out, everyone! The country's fucked because I blew it!

Subject: RE: 5yr old shoots 2yr old
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 May 13 - 12:22 PM

I was about to apologise for mis-spelling your handle. Then I realised I got it right.