BS: bridge collapse in Washington usa

Subject: RE: BS: bridge collapse in Washington usa
From: Deckman
Date: 20 Jun 13 - 01:27 PM

If you really think about it, collapsing bridges are really GOOD for the economy. bob

Subject: RE: BS: bridge collapse in Washington usa
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Jun 13 - 12:15 PM

There may also be some rubbernecking as people drive across the bridge - they want that at slower speeds so there are no more accidents on it.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: bridge collapse in Washington usa
From: Deckman
Date: 20 Jun 13 - 08:22 AM

"Monetary" as well as structural consideration!

Subject: RE: BS: bridge collapse in Washington usa
From: gnu
Date: 20 Jun 13 - 06:31 AM

"severly enforcing the 40 MPH speed limits"... Likely a design consideration.

Subject: RE: BS: bridge collapse in Washington usa
From: Deckman
Date: 19 Jun 13 - 11:02 PM

I drove over the bridge twice today. A pretty slick repair, except, the State Patrol are severly enforcing the 40 MPH speed limits. They are passing out $140 tickets like candy. I'm also impressed that they opened the bridge at 5 AM with no fanfare, they just wanted to get traffic moving again. bob(deckman)nelson

Subject: RE: BS: bridge collapse in Washington usa
From: gnu
Date: 19 Jun 13 - 11:55 AM

Today is the day.

Subject: RE: BS: bridge collapse in Washington usa
From: gnu
Date: 27 May 13 - 05:04 PM

Oh dear! Apparently, posting the morning after is just as bad as posting the night before. The frame with the picup truck CLEARLY shows an expansion joint ONE bay behind the truck. There are four full bays and one end bay. Hmmm... now I am startin ta wonder about that $15M again. But I ain't gonna start talkin outta my ass again... right away. Maybe later tonight while I am watchin the Red Wings advance in the playoffs (that's trash talk - completely different).

BUT... I will ask/say... how long ARE the bays? That truck is 19' long. Distortion of image on the 360 camera? Not that it matters in any case. Fact is, I was dead wrong from the get go. First of all, I was thinkin two lanes which, in itself is stunnedasmearse.

Subject: RE: BS: bridge collapse in Washington usa
From: gnu
Date: 27 May 13 - 04:35 PM

160' span? That would be 5 bays at... WTF> I gotta fly all the way back there? My arms are gettin tired! BRB... I'll crank the afterburners.

Subject: RE: BS: bridge collapse in Washington usa
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 May 13 - 03:45 PM

Temporary spans for I-5 bridge expected by mid-June.
The replacement permanent span is expected by Autumn. The Federal government is expected to cover 100% of the costs of the temporary spans and 90% of the cost of the replacement span.

The temporary spans can carry card and trucks with "normal" loads. The speed limit would be reduced (was 60mph).

Bridges that can collapse are called "fracture critical," if a "single, vital component is compromised." Apparently these designs are widespread.

The semi's cargo was headed to Alaska via Vancouver, WA, where it was to be loaded on a barge.

The Bellingham Herald, May 26. "Temporary fix set for crumpled I-5 bridge in Wash."

Subject: RE: BS: bridge collapse in Washington usa
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 May 13 - 03:22 PM

Riverside Drive river crossing is listed at the primary detour route by WSDOT.

Subject: RE: BS: bridge collapse in Washington usa
From: Bill D
Date: 27 May 13 - 03:03 PM

I see there is another 4-lane river crossing just to the East of the broken bridge.(Riverside Drive, going North) It has no overhead superstructure. I also see no load limit restrictions on it. I wonder what its official status is in this situation? Looks like it could carry a lot of traffic.

Subject: RE: BS: bridge collapse in Washington usa
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 May 13 - 12:54 PM

A misplaced phrase- 160-foot collapsed section.

The sentence should be-- The article says that if replacement of the bridge is decided upon ..... it is unclear whether Atkinson would automatically get the contract or a new contract bid would be sought by WSDOT.

The collapsed section is 160 feet long, and its removal and replacement is part of the emergency contract awarded by WSDOT

Subject: RE: BS: bridge collapse in Washington usa
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 May 13 - 12:44 PM

Repairs and cleanup to cost approx. $15 million, acc. to Governor.

The Washington State Department of Transportation has awarded an emergency contract to remove the fallen section and remove vehicles, and start repairs on the I-5 bridge.
Atkinson Construction, part of the large Clark group, has sent in cranes to effect the removal of the debris.
Some suggest the $15 million estimate for removal and repair is too low. Atkinson has not made a public estimate of the cost.

Replacement of the bridge would be "significantly more".

The article says that if replacement of the 160-foot collapsed section is decided upon (depending on "recommendation by investigators"), it is unclear whether Atkinson would automatically get the contract or a new contract bid would be sought by WSDOT.

A bailey-bridge has been recommended as a temporary solution, but even that would take "months".

Puget Sound Business Journal, May 26, 2013. "WSDOT awards emergency Skagit Bridge contract to Atkinson Construction."

For some reason, two of my posts have been removed, including the one leading to the post by Gnu about the $15 million cost to replace a section.

[No posts have been removed. Perhaps one never got through.]

Subject: RE: BS: bridge collapse in Washington usa
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 May 13 - 12:05 PM

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: bridge collapse in Washington usa
From: gnu
Date: 27 May 13 - 08:46 AM

There is another observation I made whilst driving over the bridge and it is an odd coincidence. If you look in the rear view mirror, there is an oversize load following you... white semi driving in the centre of the lanes.

Subject: RE: BS: bridge collapse in Washington usa
From: gnu
Date: 27 May 13 - 08:19 AM

I just flew to the bridge, entered street level, drove to the frame with the white pickup truck, walked outside and measured my truck, returned to the white pickup (nice truck, 2011 I think), estimated the bay length at 25', drove to the semi and counted 10 bays in the damaged, estimated the deck width at 50', saw the custom box beams and arch beams, googled pictures showing the deck support and noted the transverse deck beams and stringers, did a cost guestimate based on my empirical investigation and drew the only logical conclusions: $15M sounds pretty good; I was talkin outta my ass again.

Subject: RE: BS: bridge collapse in Washington usa
From: gnu
Date: 27 May 13 - 06:54 AM

2 hours ago, 680 Radio...

SEATTLE – Gov. Jay Inslee announced plans to install temporary spans across the Skagit River within weeks after the collapse of a Washington state bridge that was struck by a semi-truck.

Sunday's announcement came a day after the chairwoman of the National Transportation Safety Board called last week's Interstate 5 bridge collapse a wake-up call to the state of safety of the nation's infrastructure and the Saturday destruction of a highway overpass in Missouri that was struck by a cargo train.

The Washington state collapse, caused by a semi-truck carrying an oversize load striking the bridge, fractured one of the major trade and travel corridors on the West Coast. The interstate connects Washington state with Canada, which is about an hour north of Mount Vernon, where the bridge buckled.

After the collapse, semi-trucks, travel buses and cars clogged local bridges as traffic was diverted through the small cities around the bridge. But overall, traffic was flowing as well as expected during the holiday weekend.

"We're going to get this project done as fast as humanly possible," Inslee, a Democrat, said Sunday. "There are no more important issue right now to the economy of the state of Washington than getting this bridge up and running."

Inslee said he hopes the temporary spans, each with two lanes for northbound and southbound traffic, will be finished in about three weeks' time or about mid-June. The spans will be pre-built and trucked to Mount Vernon.

The state plan also calls for a permanent span to be built and competed by autumn, officials said.

Officials say there are remaining inspections to the spans left standing to make sure they are safe to use.

The federal government is expected to cover 100 per cent of the costs of the temporary bridge and 90 per cent the replacement, said state Transportation Secretary Lynn Peterson.


http://www.680news.com/2013/05/27/2-temporary-spans-planned-for-collapsed-washington-i-5-bridge/

Subject: RE: BS: bridge collapse in Washington usa
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 26 May 13 - 11:33 PM

The most recent report I've seen suggests a plan that would put a temporary "prefab" replacement span in place of the span that failed, with a permanent replacement later. The temporary span would require reduced load and speed for a while, and the permanent fix would just put the bridge back to whatever capacity was being allowed before the breakup.

As to the cost, recent simple highway projects, with concrete just laid on the dirt, have run close to $1,000,000 PER MILE when there are no "complications" to contend with. A recent estimate for a new Texas road ran quite a bit higher because the soil was considered so unstable they'd have to "glue some of it together" before it would hold a slab of concrete so it wouldn't slide out across the prairie when somethin' rolled over it. (And some opinions were they they weren't planning for enough glue.)

As to the truss bridges, later designs in some cases used "multiple redundancy" designs, with a requirement that no single failure would cause anything to fall down. The more sophisticated designs added "only a little" to the cost of the original construction, but less techie methods might easily double the cost. Some afficionados claim to be able to spot the differences "on sight" but it can be difficult even for good bridge engineers to tell without the blueprints and analyses, especially for the more sophisticated "redundant" designs.

Recent reports are that the "official" surveys find something like 66,000 "structurally inadequate" bridges in current use in the US. The news reporters don't seem to think that they need to note where they get their "facts," but the numbers agree with previous reports well enough to be considered "good for talkin' purposes."

SOME OF THESE structurally inadequate bridges have been posted to reduce loads, traffic, and speeds, but others just sit there waiting for someone to fall in the creek. It should be noted that not all of these are "big bridges" and lots of little "local traffic" structures are included in the count. "Classified lists" that show traffic affected by number of "defectives" have been rare.

Counts of "functionally deficient" bridges, as the one in the news was reportedly classified, have not been frequently seen, and none that appear to be as complete as the reports on structurally deficient ones have appeared in any of my sources for some time. The most recent reports have claimed that this bridge has had a number of "incidents" very similar to the recent one, with no visible change in functionality.

Construction of new projects is usually pretty clear cut and the politicians can guess whether to pander to the "fors" or to the "agins." MAINTENANCE is a lot more "iffy," so decisions (and funding) get deferred.

I don't know whether there's a significant difference between the US and elsewhere, but major new projects here quite often include program provisions for funding continued maintenance, but as the maintenance funds accumulate (before the major repairs are needed?) they're seen as a "honeypot" for politicians and frequently get "diverted to something more important." Then when someone disappears into the bottom of a pothole there's "no funds" for the roadway.

John

Subject: RE: BS: bridge collapse in Washington usa
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 May 13 - 11:28 PM

I've always had a pretty good impression of the Army Corps of Engineers. They seems to be concerned about doing things right. For the most part, they are citizens of the communities where they work, and they really seem to care about the work they're doing.

This bridge is very important to the economy of the community. I'm sure they won't delay repairs any longer than they have to.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: bridge collapse in Washington usa
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 May 13 - 10:35 PM

It is peanuts - but they'll also probably put warnings in place on both sides if anyone is overheight. The technology involved, the ability to pull off and avoid the bridge - all of that could be factored into this "repair."

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: bridge collapse in Washington usa
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 May 13 - 06:58 PM

$15 million is peanuts these days.

Subject: RE: BS: bridge collapse in Washington usa
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 May 13 - 06:35 PM

Gnu, I've been across that bridge some eleventy-fourteen times, and it's a bit more than a "simple span." I think some folks are underestimating extent and nature of the problems here.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: bridge collapse in Washington usa
From: gnu
Date: 26 May 13 - 06:24 PM

Q... "Washington's governor says cost to fix will be $15 million. Repair probably will be the outcome."

I am gobsmacked! No way it could actually cost that much to "fix" it. It's just a simple span and the design drawings are done... all the truss caculations are done. I got a buddy across town that could have a JUNIOR engineer detail that sucker with steel avaialble today IN STOCK in less than 48 hours.

Anyone know how I can bid on the job? Gimmie $2M and I am goin ta Disneyland... wait... no... Bobert's pool party and yer all invited on my dime.

$15M? to replace a tiny span? WTF? I see wolves closing in on the flock.

Subject: RE: BS: bridge collapse in Washington usa
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 May 13 - 06:18 PM

Yeah, the Fremont bridge is only a couple of blocks south and west of the Aurora bridge, but the troll is essentially in the Fremont District, right under the Aurora bridge. Quite a tourist attraction, as is Waiting for the Interurban.

The Fremont district in general is a pretty interesting area, complete with the annual nude bicycle race. Dusty Strings is right in the middle of it (the district, not the bike race!), and a block or two to the west is the shop of one of the best luthiers I've ever encountered, at Sound Guitar Repair. She does beautiful repair work!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: bridge collapse in Washington usa
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 May 13 - 05:54 PM

I Googled him and the site said Fremont - I used that because I thought I had mis-remembered it - I should have looked further. I've been under there, but it has been a long time. My Dad took a whole bunch of photos of it shortly after it was finished. Thanks, Don! He also took photos of the Fremont statues.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: bridge collapse in Washington usa
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 May 13 - 05:39 PM

Actually, the troll is under the north end of the Aurora Avenue (George Washington Memorial) Bridge. CLICKY.

Here he is, being a gracious host at a little gathering, CLICKY.

At the north end of the Fremont drawbridge and immediately around the corner, standing at the bus stop, is a group of statues called "Waiting for the Interurban." Rather whimsically, people are given to decorating them from time to time, often around holidays. CLICKY. Someone has placed a scarf around the shoulders of one of the statues. The young woman at the far end is real.

Lotsa bridges around here.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: bridge collapse in Washington usa
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 May 13 - 03:57 PM

Thanks, Q.

Joe, have you seen this aspect of the Fremont Ave bridge>?

Some of them are simply beautiful (the Montlake cut, from Lake Washington to Lake Union)

We spent a lot of time waiting for this one from West Seattle into the Harbor Island area when I was a kid.

Maybe the locals will know about the drawbridge west of the Hiram M. Chittenden Locks that I believe has been in the up position for decades. Was it ever fixed or torn down?

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: bridge collapse in Washington usa
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 May 13 - 12:35 PM

SRS, you are correct and I was wrong.
The Skagit is still classed as a navigable stream. The Corps of Engineers has a role because waterworks are involved, also the Coast Guard.

Funds will probably come from DOT, if the fix is declared an emergency.

The U.S. Corps of Engineers produced a flood reduction and ecosystem restoration feasibility study in 2009.
They can ask for restriction of flow from the dams.

Skagit County has 108 bridges, 42 are 50 years old or older. (Skagit County Public Works Dept.)

The U.S. Dept. of Transportation (DOT) says it has funds to rebuild. $1,000,000 in emergency funds authorized.
"Scenarios" for repair or rebuild are being considered.
DOT has sent their chief engineer to inspect the span.

Washington's governor says cost to fix will be $15 million. Repair probably will be the outcome.

A good summary- Seattle Post Intelligencer:
http://blog.seattlepi.com/seattlepolitics/2013/05/24/federal-available-to-repair-skagit-sec/lahood/

Subject: RE: BS: bridge collapse in Washington usa
From: gnu
Date: 26 May 13 - 07:09 AM

Indeed, Joe... but fixing the existing bridge ASAP (like I said, two weeks if the Army Corps is called in) would be paramount to me at the present time.

And, yes, I know I haven't stood on the bridge and assessed the damage but I really can't give a "no-can-fix" much of a chance. If such actually is the case, I surely wish I could see it. I'll have to wait for the report. That is one thing I really like about you Yanks... the dissemination of information by your highway authorities, especially the umbrella USDOT, is nothing short of superb. When I was in Boston and Washington, the various authorities and universities bent over backwards to accomodate our group. We even brought home well over $5000 of technical lit free of charge although Customs gave us a real hard time.

BTW, four of us ordered a large pizza at a pub in Boston one eve. Large in Boston means something different here. Here, we call it "Holy Crap! No way we're gonna eat all that!" Second best pizza I ever tasted. Jose Feliciano playing... what an evening!

Subject: RE: BS: bridge collapse in Washington usa
From: Deckman
Date: 26 May 13 - 04:25 AM

The main north/south highway, even in Oregon,is I-5. The bi-pass in Portland that you mention only avoids I-5 for a short distance. In the area where the bridge collapsed, Skagit County, I-5 is sandwiched between Puget Sound and the Cascade mountains. There really is no place for a bi-pass. bob(deckman)nelson

Subject: RE: BS: bridge collapse in Washington usa
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 May 13 - 04:01 AM

When bridges go out here in California, the California Department of Transportation (CalTrans) often calls on C.C. Myers, Inc.. The firm has built itself a reputation for rebuilding broken freeways within budget, and well ahead of deadline. It's an interesting concept - to build a reputation for always getting the job well and on time, no matter what it takes. I wish more companies would follow the example of this firm.

Gnu has a point that the broken section of the bridge could probably be fixed quickly, but a broken bridge section is a good tool for getting politicians to replace the entire bridge, which is what should be done. The State of Washington is nearly as susceptible to earthquakes as California, so rigid truss bridges need to be replaced with something more flexible.

I really love steel truss bridges, and I'm especially partial to the truss portion of the San Francisco Bay Bridge that's being replaced. Thanks to Spaw for the link to the excellent Rachel Maddow program on this bridge. She gave a great explanation of truss bridges and their fatal flaw (and threw in a wonderful explanation of the St. Lawrence Seaway). We recently lost a beautiful cantilevered truss bridge at Carquinez Straits, which was replaced by a suspension bridge.

You in the UK who wonder about bridges in the U.S., don't forget the Tay Bridge Disaster. And yes, I know it happened a long, long time ago - but it has affected bridgebuilding in the UK to this very day. The State of Washington has had a number of memorable bridge collapses - most interesting to me was the 1990 demise of the Lake Washington Floating Bridge - see this link (click) for the top five Seattle bridge disasters. Seattle is a city of fascinating bridges - no wonder it has bridge disasters every once in a while. Pittsburgh and New York City are two other towns with lots of fascinating bridges, but I don't know of bridge disasters there.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: bridge collapse in Washington usa
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 May 13 - 02:33 AM

How does it happen, I wonder, that Portland has an I 5 bypass in I 205 while Seattle does not?

Subject: RE: BS: bridge collapse in Washington usa
From: Deckman
Date: 26 May 13 - 12:02 AM

BACK TO THE SUBJECT ... In all seriousness, this bridge failure is really a big deal here. I-5, the freeway, is THE one and only major roadway between Mexico and Canada, on the West coast. Thousands of trucks, not to mention cars, travel it always.

So far. the temporary side roads they are trying to set up are adding hours to the travel time between my home in Everett, and Bellingham. Bellingham is where my three children live. Also in Bellingham are: two granddaughters, one dog, one daughter-in-law, one turtle, and one lizard.

The only good I can find in this bridge collapse is that come father's day, no one from up north will have to try to travel to my place for the BBQ ... look at the money I'll save!   bad bad bob

Subject: RE: BS: bridge collapse in Washington usa
From: Deckman
Date: 25 May 13 - 11:55 PM

WHAT ARE YOU FOLKS DRINKING? sheeeuh! Actually, there's always been a run of early Spring Chinook (salmon). Come late September, in come the steelhead. but ... I digress! bob

Subject: RE: BS: bridge collapse in Washington usa
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 May 13 - 10:08 PM

Dynamite? Nah, that's kinda crude.

Well, actually, he uses a school of trained piranha like a pack of hunting dogs. There are few things more pathetic looking than a steelhead cowering in a treetop!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: bridge collapse in Washington usa
From: gnu
Date: 25 May 13 - 09:55 PM

Deckman would only fish IN season with proper bait. Out of season?... with explosives, of course. Time is of the esscence out of season, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: bridge collapse in Washington usa
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 May 13 - 09:41 PM

In fishing season, one hopes! Steelhead? Trout?

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: bridge collapse in Washington usa
From: Deckman
Date: 25 May 13 - 09:37 PM

SRS ... I used to fish alongside the north bridge foundation abutment that collapsed. bob

Subject: RE: BS: bridge collapse in Washington usa
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 May 13 - 09:16 PM

Q - you're talking about entities way upstream. The US Forest Service portion (Mt. Baker-Snoqualmie National Forest, the Baker River District) is in the Cascade Mountains, as is the National Park Service portion (Ross Lake Natl. Recreation Area in North Cascades National Park - where Gorge Dam, Diablo Dam, and Ross Dam were built on the upstream Skagit). Seattle City Light was in there first with the dams so the national recreation area is around the dams and lakes which were built for hydroelectric power. The land surrounding the recreation area has stricter usage rules and is National Park.

To be clear, the bridge that fell is in the flatlands, the delta of the river, near Mt. Vernon. It is navigable, and you need to get a map. I grew up there, I worked for the National Park Service in the Cascades in THAT PARK and I worked for the Forest Service in THAT FOREST and I drove up and down that Interstate highway hundreds of times in my lifetime.

My cousin Norman Ronning was the last captain of the sternwheeler Preston, which was the last working sternwheeler on the west coast until it was retired, and he retired. It was owned by the Corps of Engineers and one of the jobs it was used for in all of those rivers was to pull out "deadheads" - logs that had sunk after being part of booms of lumber (trees logged, trimmed, cut to length, dropped in the water, floated downstream in large booms or rafts). These deadheads were deadly to navigation on the river, so they were flagged when spotted, and the Preston went and pulled them out. This ship would have travled upstream from Mt. Vernon. Not sure if they got as far as or farther than Sedro Woolley, but the Preston was a flat bottomed boat and got into some very shallow water when needed.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: bridge collapse in Washington usa
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 May 13 - 08:48 PM

It strikes me that faulting those who built the bridge in the 1950s is a bit like faulting Douglas for not equipping the piston-driven DC-7 with jet engines.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: bridge collapse in Washington usa
From: gnu
Date: 25 May 13 - 08:04 PM

Q... too bad... the job of restoring traffic flow(again, slowly) would be done or almost done by now.

Subject: RE: BS: bridge collapse in Washington usa
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 May 13 - 07:33 PM

In 1978, The Skagit Wild and Scenic River System was established by Congress. It is managed by the U.S. National Forest Service. The Skagit River Hydroelectric System provides electricity to Seattle. It has three dams, and according to Wiki, is popular for whitewater rafting and fly-fishing. The Nature Conservancy is working with farmers in the delta area.

I doubt that its navigable status is in effect or that the Corps of Engineers would be involved in replacement or repair of the bridge.

Subject: RE: BS: bridge collapse in Washington usa
From: JennieG
Date: 25 May 13 - 06:59 PM

Joe, come to Oz.....you can climb the arch of the Sydney Harbour Bridge! Himself and I have done so.

Subject: RE: BS: bridge collapse in Washington usa
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 May 13 - 06:16 PM

The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers will have to be involved with that bridge. Although it was fixed in place, it wasn't a draw bridge or a rotating bridge, the Skagit is still a navigable waterway that far up. And navigable waterways come under the exclusive jurisdiction of the USACE.

The commercial navigation may be only history now, I don't know how many log booms come down river versus logs being driven to the mills on trucks. But it used to be a working river, like most of the rest of the big ones in Western Washington. Other modern businesses would include commercial fishing, tourism, etc. The Skagit has levees that the Corps maintains. Lots of things people don't think about often that the Corps keeps track of.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: bridge collapse in Washington usa
From: gnu
Date: 25 May 13 - 06:14 PM

BTW... 58 years and a PROCEDURAL error takes it out? Carrying 77k vehicles per day as of late until it was struck down by a mistake in some paperwork? Built on the cheap? Damn good engineering! Taxpayers should thank the engineers that designed that bridge.

All hail The Invisible E!

Subject: RE: BS: bridge collapse in Washington usa
From: gnu
Date: 25 May 13 - 06:05 PM

You ain't listenin... "fix" costs little and can easily be done in two weeks to keep traffic moving while twinning takes longer. Read my post again... and again if required. Surely fixing the existing structure is job one and twinning (fixing the received problem) is job two.

BTW, I don't actually know if wholesale replacement is the correct solution. As an engineer, I would actually have to study the situation to offer an informed analysis... unlike 99% of the reports and comments I read and view herein and elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: bridge collapse in Washington usa
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 May 13 - 05:57 PM

Uh, Gnu- they're talking replacement, not repair. It wouldn't be legal to use the 1950's design today. And they'd just be asking for another collapse next time a vehicle stuck one of the main supporting members.

Send in the Army Corps? The Gang Who Couldn't Shoot Straight? Yer kidding, right?

Subject: RE: BS: bridge collapse in Washington usa
From: gnu
Date: 25 May 13 - 05:51 PM

What kinda bugs me at the moment is $15M to fix it??? $15M for one simple section??? The design is already done FFS! Fabricate it and place it. And, news reports say traffic will be disrupted a long while? Send in the Army Corps of Engineers and traffic moves, albeit slowly, in 48 hours. In two weeks, 4 tops, the bridge could be servicable. Granted, it should be twinned and then used for another purpose but this shit ain't rocket science. Where is the will to get it done? Or are all the Army Corps of Engineers Afghanistan while the politicians make hay with sound bites?

Subject: RE: BS: bridge collapse in Washington usa
From: Bill D
Date: 25 May 13 - 05:26 PM

"Meadow's cowpie explanation.."

It's **Maddow**, and there's nothing at all strange about HER voice. I have a list of female 'news' folk who sound like gossiping high school girls... Rachael is an A-

Picky, me? naawwww...

Subject: RE: BS: bridge collapse in Washington usa
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 25 May 13 - 04:56 PM

Speaking of collapsing infrastructure: Missouri overpass