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BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found From: Greg F. Date: 04 Apr 14 - 11:09 AM absolute proof that Canada had a defined policy of genocide You really are an ass, Bruce- tho its uncertain whether you or PeeDee is the larger one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found From: pdq Date: 04 Apr 14 - 10:46 AM "In the sailing ships of the middle 19th century, the crossing to America or Canada took up to 12 weeks. By the end of the century the journey to Ellis Island was just 7 to 10 days. By 1911 the shortest passage, made in summer, was down to 5 days; the longest was 9 days. With conditions having improved (although they were by no means extremely comfortable for those in steerage), the transatlantic crossing was no longer seen as a one-time ordeal - See more at: http://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com/journey-to-Ellis-Island.html#sthash.lTvaV5bl.dpuf" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found From: pdq Date: 04 Apr 14 - 10:36 AM The incubation period for epidemic typhus is 5-15 days. If you need me to explain, I will. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found From: pdq Date: 04 Apr 14 - 10:30 AM King Henry V and Sir Francis Drake both died of dysentery. Are we to assume that an evil English government starved them too? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 Apr 14 - 10:18 AM To put paid to your attempts to smear those of us who blame Britain - this is my note on the song, John Mitchel, for the CD, 'From Puck to Appleby - written about nine years ago. It makes quite clear my views on Mitchel's hypocrisy. "Mitchel, an Irish revolutionary, was a strong advocate of a peasant led rebellion to establish independence for Ireland. In 1848, he was found guilty of treason by a "loaded" jury, and sentenced to fourteen years transportation to Australia. Five years later he escaped from Tasmania and managed to make his way to America. Ironically, while there he became a leading supporter of slavery and the southern cause. He returned to Ireland in 1875, where he became Member of Parliament for Co. Tipperary. We also recorded this from Wexford Traveller 'Pop's 'Johnny Connors who says he first heard it as "The Convict's Chain" played on the pipes by his grand-uncle Johnny Doran, the legendary travelling piper" Very interesting posting pdq, though I'm not sure of its relevance. I trust you are not attempting to show the brutal inhumanity of shipping out weak and ill famine victims to a place unable to cope with them Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found From: beardedbruce Date: 04 Apr 14 - 10:17 AM Careful, pdq. You have now provided Jim C with absolute proof that Canada had a defined policy of genocide and the destruction of all the Irish. "Dr. George Douglas, Grosse Isle's chief medical officer, recorded that by midsummer of 1847 the quarantine regulations in force were 'physically impossible' to carry out, making it necessary for the emigrants to stay on board their ships for many days. Douglas believed that washing and airing out the ships would be enough to stop the contagion spreading between infected passengers. With the arrival of thousands of emigrants, the island was quickly overwhelmed. Tents were set up to house the influx of people, but many new arrivals were left lying on the ground without shelter. Robert Whyte records seeing 'hundreds… literally flung on the beach, left amid the mud and stones to crawl on the dry land as they could'. The Anglican Bishop of Montreal, Bishop Mountain, recalled seeing people lying opposite the church screaming for water, while others lay inside the tents without bedding. One child he saw was covered in vermin; another who had 'been walking with some others, sat down for a moment, and died'. Many children were orphaned."" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found From: pdq Date: 04 Apr 14 - 10:05 AM Once again, the bad years for Ireland, 1845-1851, were marked by several disease epidemics at one time. The term "fever" refers to typhus, and the other great killer was cholera. Dysentary has some of the same symptoms as cholera, but we can assume that dysentary also took a toll. Deaths froms disease greatly exceeded deaths from starvation, and people who are immaciated from the ravages of cholera and disentery will look like they suffering from starvation. Here as an account of the disease ships that headed to Canada: "Grosse Isle, Quebec is an island in the Gulf of St. Lawrence, home to a quarantine station set up in 1832 to contain a cholera epidemic, and home to thousands of Irish emigrants from 1832 to 1848. On 17 May 1847, the first vessel, the Syria, arrived with 430 fever cases. This was followed by eight more ships a few days later. Dr Douglas wrote that he had 'not a bed to lay [the invalids] on… I never contemplated the possibility of every vessel arriving with fever as they do now'. One week later seventeen more vessels had appeared at Grosse Isle. By this time, 695 people were already in hospital. Only two days afterwards the number of vessels reached thirty, with 10,000 immigrants now waiting to be processed. By 29 May, a total of 36 vessels had arrived. The end of May saw forty ships forming a line two miles (3 km) long down the St. Lawrence River. According to Dr Douglas, each one was affected by fever and dysentery. 1100 invalids were accommodated in sheds and tents, or laid out in rows in the church. Dr. George Douglas, Grosse Isle's chief medical officer, recorded that by midsummer of 1847 the quarantine regulations in force were 'physically impossible' to carry out, making it necessary for the emigrants to stay on board their ships for many days. Douglas believed that washing and airing out the ships would be enough to stop the contagion spreading between infected passengers. With the arrival of thousands of emigrants, the island was quickly overwhelmed. Tents were set up to house the influx of people, but many new arrivals were left lying on the ground without shelter. Robert Whyte records seeing 'hundreds… literally flung on the beach, left amid the mud and stones to crawl on the dry land as they could'. The Anglican Bishop of Montreal, Bishop Mountain, recalled seeing people lying opposite the church screaming for water, while others lay inside the tents without bedding. One child he saw was covered in vermin; another who had 'been walking with some others, sat down for a moment, and died'. Many children were orphaned." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 Apr 14 - 09:58 AM What? What as Mitchel's book to do with anything here - another straw man to avoid the real questions. You make outrageous claims, such as your latest attempts to blame land agents for the evictions, then do a runner when they are challenged with facts. You now are attempting to create a diversion with a book nobody has cited and has nothing to do with the arguments here I extend the same invitation I have to Keith - answer the points. Mitchel's book (whichever that is) is certainly not the basis of criticism of British culpability - actual British policy is. You have avoided every item of that that has been put up, and no doubt will continue to do so. Please give us the benefit of your wisdom and stop waffling Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found From: Teribus Date: 04 Apr 14 - 09:41 AM Mitchel's book is the cornerstone of belief and the "research" basis of all books taking the line that Britain was responsible for deliberate "genocide" in Ireland. Pity the book itself was written as a hysterical, politically motivated rant, by a self-confessed supremacist racist, and an abominably poorly researched rant at that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 Apr 14 - 07:22 AM "So you challenge these facts Jim!" I certainly do challenge your deformed version of the facts Keith, on every subject you have manipulated them on Historians dispute whether British policy was a deliberate attempt to cull the Irish population Not a single historian disputes the description I have given of British policy - all hold British policy to be the cause of the outcome of the Irish Famine. Anyway - historians opinions aside - what, from your deep knowledge and understanding - is your opinion on British policy - nobody else's - yours. You have made yourself a figure of fun by time and time again hiding behind experts and historians you have admitted you have never read, on subjects you have admitted you don't understand You have become a caricature jingoist. Time to redeem yourself What is your opinion, and if you are still intending to hide behind opinions that are a total mystery to you - what is their opinion on this? 03 Apr 14 - 04:13 AM and 03 Apr 14 - 03:56 PM You have three alternatives 1. Show where any of of these are incorrect 2. Show where any of these did not make British policy culpable for the outcome of the Famine. And should you feel incapable of doing this: 3. Produce quotes and links to your "majority of historians" who have contradicted the former two It really isn't any more complicated than that, especially as your claimed absolvers of British policy in the majority, as you claim There you go - your starter for ten Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 04 Apr 14 - 06:36 AM So you challenge these facts Jim! "Historians dispute that Britain can be blamed. Historians dispute the question of blame Greg. In the context of the famine, nationalist historians blame the government, and revisionists do not. Blame is disputed" Only a fool challenges a fact. And this fact! "For the record many historians find that Britain can not be blamed. Or these!! Put very simply for you to understand, they blame Britain. The Revisionists do not. For the record many historians find that Britain can not be blamed. I just said that blame is disputed by some historians, which is true. Musket, the Revisionists on this do NOT blame Britain. Why does challenging obvious truths not make you a fool Jim? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 Apr 14 - 06:10 AM Can we assume that the Chocolate Soldier's claim of our resident flag-wagger's neutrality has now ridden off into the sunset. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 Apr 14 - 05:58 AM "is to be viewed as an authoritative " Who on earth claimed that - certainly not me? My view of Mitchel is as stated - a flawed patriot - no more. Stop insulting my intelligence with red-herrings. I don't give my undivided support to any source unless I have read and understood it in full - I haven't hid by opinions (distorted or otherwise) of any historian - you are looking in the wrong direction. I can't believe anybody could be so desperate and so stupid as to blame land agents for the half century of evictions. The evictions took place with military and practical assistance provided by the authorities in the shape of soldiers and demolition workmen They were not only allowed to take place, but they were carried out in obeyance of the British Governments direct instruction that all rent arrears must be acted on. Those humane landlords (and there were a few) who overlooked rent arrears because of the prevailing conditions, did so in defiance of Government policy. "Which of my statements do you challenge Jim?" All of them Keith - which of the reasons I have given for the causes of the fatalities and evictions, do you object to - you haven't said yet? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found From: Teribus Date: 04 Apr 14 - 05:56 AM "celiberate British policy" - WTF??? "The land agent was an employee of the landowner" Ehmmmm NO Christmas he wasn't, not by any stretch of the imagination. The land agent leased all of the landowners land for a fixed rent £x. That was a simple business arrangement. The land agent then subdivided the land into y number of plots and put tenants on it to work. The land agent then charged y number of tenants £x/y + z/y rent where: x = fixed rent agreed with the land owner y = Number of subdivided plots z = anticipated/desired profit Under this system - The landowner is happy he gets his income without having to do a stroke of work for it, and he doesn't even need to see the place. The land agent is happy because he gets his income without having to do a stroke of work for it, apart from collecting the rent. The tenant farmer works his arse off and hopefully makes enough to: a) Pay his rent b) Feed himself and his family c) Make some profit by selling any excess at market |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found From: Teribus Date: 04 Apr 14 - 05:38 AM Ah so John Mitchel's book written in 1861 in America where he could not possibly have any access to relevant records and after an absence from the country(Ireland) of 13 years is to be viewed as an authoritative account purely because it supports and reinforces your bigoted and biased belief in a supposed genocide perpetrated by Britain. A book written in Ireland by a Canon of the Roman Catholic Church, Canon John O'Rourke, in 1874 however is to be dismissed and discounted on the basis that - "things have moved on" - How utterly ridiculous and pathetic of you. Canon O'Rourke in researching his book wrote query sheets and sent them to all who were in possession of information of the Famine. He investigated Public Journals, Parliamentary Blue Books, Parliamentary Debates, pamphlets, periodicals and the reports from the various Societies and Associations responsible for dispensing aid and alms. Canon John O'Rourke in researching the material for his book also visited those parts of the country most affected where he talked to those who had lived through it. Of the two books, the highly charged political rant penned with scant research by John Mitchel, or the thoroughly researched work by Canon John O'Rourke, I think if I wanted information on the Famine I would rely and put a great deal more credence on the factual authenticity and accuracy of the latter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 04 Apr 14 - 05:14 AM Which of my statements do you challenge Jim? Each one is factually correct and not an opinion of mine. I have no opinion about blame for the famine. Perhaps you would like to counterbalance it with instances of his admitting that Britain was in any way to blame for the outcome of the Famine? I originally posted to counterbalance the completely biased, one sided view that was being presented, mainly by you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 Apr 14 - 05:06 AM None of which alters the facts of celiberate British policy The land agent was an employee of the landowner Kicking the milkman's horse again - just like with Trevelyan Bt the Way From O'Rourkes book - on line The Government depôts already in existence, as well as those to be established, were only to be in aid of the regular corn and meal trade; and no supplies were to be sold from them, until it was proved to the satisfaction of the Assistant Commissary-General of the district that the necessity for so doing was urgent, and that no other means of obtaining food existed. This rule was, in some instances, kept so stringently, that people died of starvation within easy distance of those depôts, with money in their hands to buy the food that would not be sold to them. The Treasury, rather than Commissary-General Routh or his subordinates, was to blame for this; their strong determination, many times expressed, being, that food accumulated by Government should be husbanded for the spring and summer months of 1847, when they expected the greatest pressure would exist. This was prudence, but prudence founded on ignorance of the real state of things in the closing months of 1846. The dearth of food which they were looking forward to in the coming spring and summer arose fully FIVE MONTHS before the time fixed by the Government; but they were so slow, or so reluctant to realize its truth, that great numbers of people were starved to death before Christmas, because the Government locked up the meal in their depôts, in order to keep the same people alive with it in May and June! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found From: Teribus Date: 04 Apr 14 - 05:05 AM "that British policy played no part in the Famine" Keith's whole thrust on this, on the WW1, on weapons sales, even on a old thread on British Fascism - has been a flag-waving nationalist claim that Britain has done no wrong Stop wriggling Christmas and your rather pathetic attempt and trying to divert will not succeed - here we are talking the Famine Now provide the quotation from any of Keith's post where he states "that British policy played no part in the Famine" If you cannot then you should admit that you were in error, retract your statement putting words into his mouth and apologise to the man. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found From: Teribus Date: 04 Apr 14 - 04:58 AM ""Other, perhaps less reliable and likely underestimates are that the event led to the deaths of approximately 1 million people through starvation and disease; a further million are thought to have emigrated as a result of the famine.[5] Some scholars estimate that the population of Ireland was reduced by 20–25%.[130] Ehmmmm Not exactly true Christmas - you have deliberately sought to misrepresent the situation once more. In the bit about the £6 million being remitted, this is mentioned earlier in the article in the section on "Landlords and tenants" in the Wiki piece you linked to and applies not to any point between 1845 and 1851 but to a specific year 1842 - now why didn't you draw our attention to that? "The [Devon] Commission stated that the principal cause was the bad relations between the landlord and tenant. There was no hereditary loyalty, feudal tie or paternalism as existed in England. Ireland was a conquered country, with the Earl of Clare speaking of the landlords saying "confiscation is their common title." According to the historian Cecil Woodham-Smith, the landlords regarded the land as a source of income from which to extract as much money as possible. With the Irish "brooding over their discontent in sullen indignation" according to the Earl of Clare, Ireland was seen as a hostile place in which to live, and as a consequence absentee landlords were common, with some visiting their property once or twice in a lifetime, or never. The rents from Ireland were then spent in England, it being estimated[who?] that in 1842 £6,000,000 was remitted out of Ireland.[citation needed] According to Woodham-Smith, the ability of the middlemen was measured by the amount of money they could contrive to extract.[19] Described by the Commission as "the most oppressive species of tyrant that ever lent assistance to the destruction of a country," they were invariably described as "land sharks" and "bloodsuckers."[20] The middlemen leased large tracts of land from the landlords on long leases with fixed rents, which they then sublet as they saw fit. They split the holding into smaller and smaller parcels to increase the amounts of rents they could then obtain, a system called conacre. Tenants could be evicted for reasons such as non-payment of rents (which were very high), or if the landlord decided to raise sheep instead of grain crops. The cottier paid his rent by working for the landlord.[21] Any improvements made on the holdings by the tenants became the property of the landlords when the lease expired or was terminated, which acted as a disincentive to improvements. The tenants had no security of tenure on the land; being tenants "at will" they could be turned out whenever the landlord chose. This class of tenant made up the majority of tenant farmers in Ireland, the exception being in Ulster where there existed a practice known as "tenant right", under which tenants were compensated for any improvements made to their holdings. The commission according to Woodham-Smith stated that "the superior prosperity and tranquility of Ulster, compared with the rest of Ireland, were due to tenant right."[20] So then Christmas taking all of that into account: Who was it that subdivided the land? The land owner or the land agent? - Answer - The Land Agent Who was it leased that subdivided land to the Cottier or tenant? The land owner or the land agent? - Answer - The Land Agent. Who was it that evicted the tenant at will? The land owner or the land agent? - Answer - The Land Agent The following shows the short-sightedness and short-termism of the tenants: "Any improvements made on the holdings by the tenants became the property of the landlords when the lease expired or was terminated, which acted as a disincentive to improvements." Now would these improvements increase the yield of the land? If so then the tenant and land agent would benefit, so a win-win situation that would improve the lot of both and go a long way in securing succession of the tenancy (Only a feckin' eedjit would throw out a good improving tenant to replace him with a slothful bad one - True?). "The British government reported [Devon Commission], shortly before the famine, that poverty was so widespread that one-third of all Irish small holdings could not support their families, after paying their rent, except by earnings of seasonal migrant labour in England and Scotland." Now that would suggest to me Christmas that the agrarian system being operating and run in Ireland, by the Irish, was unsustainable and that it would have been inevitable famine or no famine that people would have had to have moved off the land sooner rather than later. The population of Ireland in 2013 was 4.95 million and the percentage of the total workforce unemployed was almost 14%. If Ireland cannot find work for a workforce of some 2.2 million people how the hell do you think it would do for a population of over 9 million? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 Apr 14 - 04:31 AM "that British policy played no part in the Famine" Keith's whole thrust on this, on the WW1, on weapons sales, even on a old thread on British Fascism - has been a flag-waving nationalist claim that Britain has done no wrong His present mantra is an insistence that Britain is in no way to blame for what happened in Ireland. He has demanded to the point of hysteria, that we admit that those who blame Britain are in the minority. Keith's extreme nationalism goes through most of his postings - it is his idenifying feature This is a small sample from Keith's postings "For the record many historians find that Britain can not be blamed. those who blame Britain are the minority Not surprising when generations of school children have been brainwashed to believe Britain should be blamed, keeping hate alive. When they have done that, most of them find that Britain can not be blamed. Put very simply for you to understand, they blame Britain. The Revisionists do not. For the record many historians find that Britain can not be blamed. I just said that blame is disputed by some historians, which is true. Musket, the Revisionists on this do NOT blame Britain. Historians dispute that Britain can be blamed. Historians dispute the question of blame Greg. In the context of the famine, nationalist historians blame the government, and revisionists do not. Blame is disputed." Perhaps you would like to counterbalance it with instances of his admitting that Britain was in any way to blame for the outcome of the Famine? You have been given a list of exactly what part British policy played in the outcome of the Famine - you continue to refuse to respond with anything other than unqualified denial of documented evidence. Your continuing belligerently bulldozing tone is an indication that you Keith's mind-numb views. If my description of British policy is wrong - show where it is and stop trying to shout and bluster it down - this is a debating forum, not one of your thuggish "I wanna be a soldier" brawls. By the way - Canon John O'Rourke was writing in 1874, when the whole of Ireland was blaming Britain for the outcome of the famine. Things have very much moved on since then. Respond to the facts - you boorish lout Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 04 Apr 14 - 04:20 AM The only thing in dispute is whether Britain's culpability was deliberate or just malicious, hate-inspired predatory neglect How can you deny that culpability IS disputed Jim? Do you deny that revisionist historians exist, or that they "deny culpability" and "rehabilitate the British Government" (Kinealy)? Their view is actually the "dominant" view among historians. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found From: Teribus Date: 04 Apr 14 - 03:50 AM From this thread or any other for that matter Christmas please provide the quote from any of Keith's posts where he at any time has claimed or stated: that British policy played no part in the Famine Don't worry Christmas, I will not hold my breath waiting for you to back up that accusation. I know you do not like and cannot cope with direct challenges relating to fact. I also know that you tend to lie to support any point that you attempt to make. I also know that like John Mitchel and his fellow Young Ireland supporters you are totally clueless as to what measures you think could have been put in place, or how it could have been dealt with. "Many key facts are clear: the Irish Famine was real, not artificial, food was extremely scarce; it could not have been solved by closing the ports; CHARGES OF GENOCIDE CANNOT BE SUSTAINED." - Canon John O'Rourke "" The crucial question in whether or not it is genocide comes down to intent. Did the English government intend to destroy the Irish people? The answer is no. They were heartlessly negligent, but neglect is not the same as murder. There was never any plan to wipe out the Irish NOR ANY ACTIONS THAT COULD BE VIEWED AS SUCH. The government didn't directly kill anyone nor did they deliberatively destroy any food. In fact the relief aid, pathetic as it was, does damage the genocide argument. After all, why would the government set up soup kitchens** if it wanted the Irish to die?" ** - Those soup kitchens at the height of the Famine fed and kept alive damn near 43% of the population. So far every single point you have put forward has been addressed. So far every single counter-point put to you, every single question put to you has been evaded and ignored by you. So when did the British Government force this agrarian policy on Ireland in the early part of the 19th century? For that matter when did the British Government force any agricultural policy on anybody anywhere during either the 18th or 19th centuries? Our members from across the pond might be able to tell us of any agricultural policies that were forced on any of the 13 Colonies by the British Government. Also rather keen to discover how the British Empire actually managed to survive the number of years that it did being so reliant on Irish produce. I do presume that Irish farmers were paid for their crops and livestock and that if this was so essential to the well being of the British Empire and the system that produced this bounty was set up in the early part of the 19th century, how come the British Empire didn't starve when it all collapsed in 1845? Want to hear the truth Christmas? The British Government never, ever imposed any agricultural policy, anywhere. The agrarian set up in Ireland that prevailed in the mid-1800s was a shambles overseen by Irish landlords, Irish land agents, Irish tenant farmers, Cottiers (On whom the landowners and farmers depended for labour) and itinerant labourers. Agriculture in Ireland was poorly organised and grossly inefficient and nobody, repeat NOBODY, concerned with it had shown the least interest in improving it for at least two hundred years. Commission after Commission had advocated that the system in place required sweeping reform - but due to inertia and indolence no-one involved with it in Ireland could be arsed to do anything about it, too laid back, anything for the easy life - Attitudes that prevailed and permeated from top to bottom - and in 1845 when the blight struck it bit them and bit them hard. All that the British Government of the day could do was REACT to the realities of the situation as it unfolded and evolved. There wasn't a single Government anywhere on earth that could have coped with the effects of the blight that struck in 1845. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 Apr 14 - 03:43 AM "That means that one of us is lying." Why - because you say so, presumably. "These figures are in dispute" They are indeed. You appear to have missed a bit from your unlinked cut-'n-paste; careless of you! "Other, perhaps less reliable and likely underestimates are that the event led to the deaths of approximately 1 million people through starvation and disease; a further million are thought to have emigrated as a result of the famine.[5] Some scholars estimate that the population of Ireland was reduced by 20–25%.[130] All of this occurred while taxes, rents, and food exports were being collected and sent to British landlords, in an amount surpassing £6 million.[131]" The Great Famine (Ireland) The actual death and emigration figures may be in dispute, the causes for those figures being as high as they were are not- they are cited over and over again in everything that has been written on the Great famine. The only thing in dispute is whether Britain's culpability was deliberate or just malicious, hate-inspired predatory neglect Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found From: Greg F. Date: 03 Apr 14 - 04:59 PM ...all their diseases, most of which were caused by overcrowding, overpopulation and poor sanitation...Almost all of the Irish who died between 1845 and 1855 died from disease, not hunger. Dogshit, fuckwit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found From: pdq Date: 03 Apr 14 - 04:25 PM These figures are in dispute, but they are the best anybody can produce at his late date. Note ratio of disease to starvation is quite high and that ratio is not in as much dispute as the total number of deaths. If you like one million total deaths, fine. "In 1851, the census commissioners collected information on the number who died in each family since 1841, the cause, season and year of death. Its disputed findings were as follows: 21,770 total deaths from starvation in the previous decade, and 400,720 deaths from disease. Listed diseases were fever, dysentery, cholera, smallpox and influenza; the first two being the main killers (222,021 and 93,232). The commissioners acknowledged that their figures were incomplete and that the true number of deaths was probably higher: "The greater the amount of destitution of mortality...the less will be the amount of recorded deaths derived through any household form; – for not only were whole families swept away by disease...but whole villages were effaced from off the land." A later historian has this to say: "In 1851, the Census Commissioners attempted to produce a table of mortality for each year since 1841... The statistics provided were flawed and probably under-estimated the level of mortality..." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found From: GUEST,mg Date: 03 Apr 14 - 04:02 PM so who says most famine victims died of disease? I had never heard of that before this thread. Certainly very many, particularly on ships and in workhouses. But most? Why has this never been brought up in my presence before? And dogs and rats did of course spread disease. But if you have no food it seems to me you will have an awful lot of people dying on roadsides, in cabins, in fields, of plain and simple starvation. Have epidemiologists put this forth? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 03 Apr 14 - 03:57 PM Plenty Keith - all saved for when its needed I think not Jim. I never said anything like that in any thread. That means that one of us is lying. Who could it be?? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 Apr 14 - 03:56 PM Long term policy Brucie - get the land out of the Irish hands and into English absentee landowners control Enough food was available in Ireland throughout the Famine to feed the population several times over - established fact. Food continued to be exported out of Ireland throughout the Famine - established fact. Locked warehouses containing food were guarded by armed troops to prevent it from falling into the hands of starving Irish - established fact. On Trevelyan's instructions, Famine relief was sold to the starving poor at market prices so as not to interfere with the laissez-faire policy - established fact. Profiteering from shipments of Famine relief food was widespread during the famine; some shipments crossed the Irish sea between Britain and Ireland up to four times before being unloaded in order to force up prices; Trevelyan and the British authorities were fully aware of this but did nothing to prevent it - established fact. The British authorities not only allowed mass evictions of families unable to pay rent, but they insisted on all rents being paid within a certain period; if not, the tenants should be evicted - established fact. When the evictions took place, under armed assistance from the military and the police, the vacated homes were systematically destroyed so the starving Irish could not use them for shelter; many thousands died of hunger and disease at the roadside and buried in unmarked mass graves - established fact. Britain's aim was to cull the Irish nation in order to make it an efficient part of the British Empire - stated policy and established fact. Really shouldn't have to repeat all this - it's all here - maybe you should get the same feller who reads these long bits to Terrytoon and Numbskull, to read them to you too. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found From: pdq Date: 03 Apr 14 - 03:29 PM If we give dates to the Irish Disaster as 1845-51, the following statement show that the basics of disease pathogens was just begining to be understood. "John Snow was a skeptic of the then-dominant miasma theory. The germ theory of disease pioneered by Girolamo Fracastoro had not yet achieved full development or widespread currency, so Snow did not understand the mechanism by which the disease was transmitted. He first published his theory in an 1849 essay On the Mode of Communication of Cholera. Despite continuing reports, he was awarded 30,000 French francs for this work by the Institut de France. In 1855 he published a second edition of his article, documenting his more elaborate investigation of the effect of the water supply in the Soho, London epidemic of 1854. By talking to local residents, he identified the source of the outbreak as the public water pump on Broad Street (now Broadwick Street). Although Snow's chemical and microscope examination of a water sample from the Broad Street pump did not conclusively prove its danger, his studies of the pattern of the disease were convincing enough to persuade the local council to disable the well pump by removing its handle. This action has been commonly credited as ending the outbreak, but Snow observed that the epidemic may have already been in rapid decline. Snow later used a dot map to illustrate the cluster of cholera cases around the pump. He also used statistics to illustrate the connection between the quality of the water source and cholera cases. He showed that the Southwark and Vauxhall Waterworks Company was taking water from sewage-polluted sections of the Thames and delivering the water to homes, leading to an increased incidence of cholera. Snow's study was a major event in the history of public health and geography. It is regarded as one of the founding events of the science of epidemiology." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found From: beardedbruce Date: 03 Apr 14 - 03:24 PM Facts as presented: 1844 Peel's Government - Exported 424 - Imported 30 - Non-famine year Corn Laws in place 1845 Peel's Government - Exported 513 - Imported 28 - Famine struck late in year, Corn Laws in place 1846 50% Peel/ 50% Russell - Exported 284 - Imported 197 - First full year of the famine Corn Laws repealed 1847 Russell's Government - Exported 146 - Imported 889 - Black '47 Out of a population of some 7 million people Russell's Government is feeding 3 million. 1848 Russell's Government - Exported 314 - Imported 439 Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found From: Jim Carroll - PM Date: 03 Apr 14 - 02:22 PM ... especially as part of Britain's wealth came from food being shipped out of starvig Ireland throughout the Famine Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 Apr 14 - 03:21 PM Will someone put that child to bed - way past his bed-time Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 03 Apr 14 - 03:15 PM Jim, do you deny that revisionist historians exist, or that they "deny culpability" and "rehabilitate" the British Government (Kinealy)? Why will you not answer Jim? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 Apr 14 - 02:22 PM Been there - done that P The British Empire was the most powerful and richest entity on the Planet gaining wealth from all over the world That Britain couldn't afford to keep the Irish alive and living in Ireland doesn't wash - ask any of Keith's historians - especially as part of Britain's wealth came from food being shipped out of starvig Ireland throughout the Famine Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found From: GUEST Date: 03 Apr 14 - 02:12 PM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found From: pdq Date: 03 Apr 14 - 12:44 PM From what I can tell, the population of Ireland after the 1841 census was 8.2 million. The population of England was then 13.6 million. So, for each Irish person there was 1.7 English who were expected to feed the Irish and treat all their diseases, most of which were caused by overcrowding, overpopulation and poor sanitation. The English are not at fault here. Almost all of the Irish who died between 1845 and 1855 died from disease, not hunger. Official Irish census reports show 17 died of starvation in 1840 and about 6000 from starvation in 1847, the worst such year of that period. Repeat: what were the English supposed to do? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 Apr 14 - 12:17 PM "How is it going? Nothing so far?" Plenty Keith - all saved for when its needed You're out of this game now - I've not intention of inviting you back so you can diversify on yet another front Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 Apr 14 - 11:46 AM "WHAT SHOULD THEY HAVE DONE that was possible AT THE TIME?" For crying out loud Bruce - read the thread I've not the slightest intention of spending another lifetime ploutering over this subject again You came in to defend Keith's "majority of historians" claim - do so. You have a summing up of my arguments on the British actions regarding the effects of the Famine but, as you appear not to have looked at it, here it is again (03 Apr 14 - 04:13 AM) You obviously haven't bothered your arse familiarising yourself with the arguments, otherwise you wouldn't have put up Mokyr - who is not a historian, but a historical economist whom Keith has requested we forget. If you notice anything we have overlooked - feel free to point it out. "Lie. I never made any such claim" Now look what you've done - you've gone and woke the Dalek - we'll never get him back to sleep now. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 03 Apr 14 - 11:38 AM Jim, By the way - just been revisiting the old thread you kindly linked us to and am checking out and making a list of your statements there tpoo compare them with your claim of what you have "only been interested in - which is not defending Britain" How is it going? Nothing so far? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 03 Apr 14 - 11:21 AM Keith has slithered his way from claiming that British policy played no part in the Famine Lie. I never made any such claim or stated any opinion about the History of the famine. I never even claimed any knowledge of it. to his present position of saying there is a dispute among historians as to whether it did. That has always been my only claim, AND IT IS TRUE! You attacked, ridiculed and derided me for saying it, but I was right and you and Greg were wrong. Again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found From: beardedbruce Date: 03 Apr 14 - 11:15 AM So, again, WHAT SHOULD THEY HAVE DONE that was possible AT THE TIME? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 Apr 14 - 11:10 AM "The obvious British failing was in not turning Ireland into mills and industrial hellholes." No - the British failing was in creating an agrarian system to suit the British Empire and leaving the Irish people in the vunerable position of being reliant on one crop Been there- done that - read the thread Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found From: beardedbruce Date: 03 Apr 14 - 11:04 AM "he agrarian policy fostered by Britain from the beginning of the 19th century was partly to blame for the effects of the Famine in the first place." True. The obvious British failing was in not turning Ireland into mills and industrial hellholes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found From: beardedbruce Date: 03 Apr 14 - 10:44 AM "Britain from the beginning of the 19th century was partly to blame for the effects of the Famine in the first place." I can agree with this- as have most of those you have been arguing with. Can YOU agree that they did what they could at that time to provide relief? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 Apr 14 - 10:30 AM None of whom deny British culpability for the outcome of the Famine due to their policy - follow the link. They may disagree whether Britain carried out a deliberate policy of genocide - none of them, and no other historian in to my knowledge, has ever denied that it was British policy in Ireland that caused one million deaths and a half century of emigration. Keith wants us to admit that the majority of historians have, when those you mentioned have said the opposite - Mokyr takes it further by blaming the agrarian policy fostered by Britain from the beginning of the 19th century was partly to blame for the effects of the Famine in the first place. The rest of those names have all singled out British policy as blame for the aftermath. Stop flinging names about - they've been argued over ad-nausem. You want to show us where any of them have denied any of the points I have made - give us your quotes. You want to show us how those points were not directly responsible for so many deaths and so many forced emigrations - feel free. Keith has slithered his way from claiming that British policy played no part in the Famine to his present position of saying there is a dispute among historians as to whether it did. He has done this having stated openly that he has never read a book on the subject and feels he doesn't need to - pretty good trick, don'cha think. In the process he has defended a major player in spreading a racist picture of the Irish as "not being racist". He has told us that Irish and Irish American education has turned out generations of hate-filled zombies who wrongly blame Britain for the Famine - two entire national/cultural groups in one posting - now there's economy for you. Anyway - what the **** am I wasting my time debating how I should respond to someone whose behavior has now gone viral; it really is none of your business - particularly as you are one of our stars in demanding answers and refusing to respond to questions. Put your case or mind your own business - simple as that Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 Apr 14 - 10:30 AM None of whom deny British culpability for the outcome of the Famine due to their policy - follow the link. They may disagree whether Britain carried out a deliberate policy of genocide - none of them, and no other historian in to my knowledge, has ever denied that it was British policy in Ireland that caused one million deaths and a half century of emigration. Keith wants us to admit that the majority of historians have, when those you mentioned have said the opposite - Mokyr takes it further by blaming the agrarian policy fostered by Britain from the beginning of the 19th century was partly to blame for the effects of the Famine in the first place. The rest of those names have all singled out British policy as blame for the aftermath. Stop flinging names about - they've been argued over ad-nausem. You want to show us where any of them have denied any of the points I have made - give us your quotes. You want to show us how those points were not directly responsible for so many deaths and so many forced emigrations - feel free. Keith has slithered his way from claiming that British policy played no part in the Famine to his present position of saying there is a dispute among historians as to whether it did. He has done this having stated openly that he has never read a book on the subject and feels he doesn't need to - pretty good trick, don'cha think. In the process he has defended a major player in spreading a racist picture of the Irish as "not being racist". He has told us that Irish and Irish American education has turned out generations of hate-filled zombies who wrongly blame Britain for the Famine - two entire national/cultural groups in one posting - now there's economy for you. Anyway - what the **** am I wasting my time debating how I should respond to someone whose behavior has now gone viral; it really is none of your business - particularly as you are one of our stars in demanding answers and refusing to respond to questions. Put your case or mind your own business - simple as that Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found From: beardedbruce Date: 03 Apr 14 - 10:06 AM Jim, "" the Great Famine today is viewed by a number of historical academics as a form of either direct or indirect genocide." No evidence whatsoever to support that contention, according to Mokyr, Nielsen, O'Rourke, Kennedy, Foster, Ó Gráda and a host of others." So, either refute this statement, or acknowledge that HISTORIANS do not agree with your opinion. 6 SPECIFIC names- show that they DO see evidence of your claim, and then you can win the argument for now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 03 Apr 14 - 10:04 AM Keith has adopted the 'fainites' policy of bombarding with the same statement until we agree with him That is because you ridiculed and derided me for saying it, but I knew it to be true. Now you can no longer deny that it is true and you look really silly. Again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found From: Teribus Date: 03 Apr 14 - 09:54 AM "Although the potato crop failed, the country was still producing and exporting more than enough grain crops to feed the population." SEZ WHO? Too many conflicting stories, but the bulk of the evidence illustrates that more food was imported into Ireland than was ever exported from it during this period. "Records show during the period Ireland was exporting approximately thirty to fifty shiploads per day of food produce" WHAT RECORDS? Those that do exist can best be described as inadequate and inconclusive "land acquisition" WHAT LAND ACQUISITION? Who was it purchased by? Who was it purchased from? Where did the money come from? There was little to no money in Ireland as the landowners were already up to their ears in debt and everything they possessed was mortgaged to the hilt - That was why it was so important for them to be able to sell their crops, to get money so that taxes could be paid in order to fund relief work. " the Great Famine today is viewed by a number of historical academics as a form of either direct or indirect genocide." No evidence whatsoever to support that contention, according to Mokyr, Nielsen, O'Rourke, Kennedy, Foster, Ó Gráda and a host of others. Most of those who claim genocide all base their arguments on one book by John Mitchel written while he was in America in 1861. As he had left Ireland in 1848 and remained a prisoner in either Bermuda and Tasmania until 1853, then stayed in America until he wrote the book how exactly would it have been possible for him to study any records? Impossible if you ask me. Christine Kinealy is very selective when it comes to digging for information. Most sensible statement that I have unearthed so far has been: "It is no doubt premature to proclaim the end of the "revisionist/anti-revisionist" conflict on the Famine, though it remains doubtful whether it can serve any useful future purpose." - Canon John O'Rourke The most sensible comment still remains that of mg stated in her post earlier on in the thread. What little Irish blood I have in me came from Ireland during the Famine and settled in Glasgow where they prospered and thrived. The Famine stories coming from my Mother's side of the family comes from two different Famines the one in Ireland and the one that affected Scotland. Do I really care about either? No of course I don't, they are simply events that happened a long time ago, and neither have affected me in the slightest. Should I don sackcloth and ashes and run round apologising on behalf of anyone for those events or how they were handled? Nope, all water under the bridge, "all debts paid with the first turn of the screw" - Old sailors saying, and by the way Christmas, if it is sympathy that you are looking for you will find it located somewhere between Shit and Syphilis in the Dictionary. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 Apr 14 - 09:50 AM "There has been a case that that Great Britain made every effort that was possible AT THE TIME to deal with the famine as best as they could. " None of which makes the slightest difference to the way the British Government actually behaved - which no historian has ever denied and which Keith and his thuggish mate will not even refer to. Try this for size (03 Apr 14 - 04:13 AM) Keith has adopted the 'fainites' policy of bombarding with the same statement until we agree with him - twisting our arms up our back until we call 'fainites' You want to be part of this - you respond to the points - Keith won't You want to produce a historian who has denied any of those points, do so As far as I am concerned Keith has one his 'Old Man of the Sea' act for long enough - he can find someone else to carry him across the water. Now - join in or mind your own business. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 Apr 14 - 09:50 AM "There has been a case that that Great Britain made every effort that was possible AT THE TIME to deal with the famine as best as they could. " None of which makes the slightest difference to the way the British Government actually behaved - which no historian has ever denied and which Keith and his thuggish mate will not even refer to. Try this for size (03 Apr 14 - 04:13 AM) Keith has adopted the 'fainites' policy of bombarding with the same statement until we agree with him - twisting our arms up our back until we call 'fainites' You want to be part of this - you respond to the points - Keith won't You want to produce a historian who has denied any of those points, do so As far as I am concerned Keith has one his 'Old Man of the Sea' act for long enough - he can find someone else to carry him across the water. Now - join in or mind your own business. Jim Carroll |
