BS: PC Spanish Class- No 'black'!

Subject: RE: BS: PC Spanish Class- No 'black'!
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 09 Jun 13 - 06:36 PM

Oh, my lovely Auntie Lil used to dance the Black Bottom and the Charleston in the twenties. She was a real 'flapper', and when I was small she'd show me the steps. I've never before considered that it might refer to black people. What are its origins Bonzo3legs? And is it non PC nowadays?

Subject: RE: BS: PC Spanish Class- No 'black'!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Jun 13 - 05:14 PM

Does anybody here dance the "Black Bottom"?

The Black Bottom - from 3:01!

Subject: RE: BS: PC Spanish Class- No 'black'!
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 09 Jun 13 - 04:20 PM

McGrath: "it appears clear enough that at least someone is not tellng the truth. We aren't in a position to make a responsible judgement on that, so it's as well we don't have the responsibility to try to do so."

Nor were we asked to make any judgement on that; the OP cut and pasted a news item without offering any comment, which is perfectly fine of course.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Spanish Class- No 'black'!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jun 13 - 01:58 PM

On the basis of the very limited information we have it appears clear enough that at least someone is not tellng the truth. We aren't in a position to make a responsible judgement on that, so it's as well we don't have the responsibility to try to do so.

As you put it, Ron "?.. the case depends on whether the facts are as rendered by the teacher. And of course we don't.

That's why I suggest that it's more sensible to consider the principles involved.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Spanish Class- No 'black'!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 Jun 13 - 12:17 PM

The pendulum has swung too far towards "student rights"--- and away from education.

That's the last thing I will have to say on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Spanish Class- No 'black'!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 Jun 13 - 11:07 AM

"no point in talking about the actual case"

Sorry, that's drivel.

I made it plain that the case depends on whether the facts are as rendered by the teacher.    If so, the case is open and shut.    And very few people were willing to admit this, far preferring to range far afield and imagine how many racists could be fit onto a pin.

As to speculating on the "color" of the teacher, that shows poor reading skills on the part of the speculators.    The OP states that she herself had been called "nigger" (and other choice epithets) by students in the class, so obviously some in the class felt she could be described as black.


The worst thing about pious pussyfooting around the issue is that, as I said, teaching is hard enough---especially in rough schools like that cited--without putting more mines in the minefield that is PC.

It is reasonable to ask for a direct answer rather than simply assuming the answer is "implied" indignation.    And thanks to Don for giving one.


And of course those unwilling to back the teacher (if the facts are as she relates) will tell us what a shame it is that the quality of education is going down.   Duh.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Spanish Class- No 'black'!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jun 13 - 08:40 PM

And, to repeat, no point in talking about the actual case, rather than the points at issue.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Spanish Class- No 'black'!
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Jun 13 - 07:52 PM

To repeat- the news item is based is based on allegations in the teacher's lawsuit.
"2011 investigation..." From text of the filing of the lawsuit? I can find no published report of an "investigation."

Subject: RE: BS: PC Spanish Class- No 'black'!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jun 13 - 07:01 PM

There are two points at issue - and I'm not talking about the specific case, because I don't know enough about it, and nobody else here does either.

On the one hand, is using negro as a Spanish word to be seen as offensive. And I doubt if anyone would say that it is.

On the other, is using it as an English word something that should be seen as offensive and grossly so. My view is that could only be so if there were other strong evidence that the teacher was behaving in a racist fashion, and the use of the word in itself should not be penalised.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Spanish Class- No 'black'!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Jun 13 - 05:45 PM

""A 2011 investigation substantiated the student's undated claims based on accounts from four seventh-grade witnesses, even though the student's own parents said he'd lied about the event.""

Given that the normal parental reaction would be to support one's child, the above casts a very considerable doubt on the veracity of both the student and the supporting seventh graders, wouldn't you say?

Sufficient to render dismissal unsafe. Yet she was dismissed and the parents' evidence was ignored.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Spanish Class- No 'black'!
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Jun 13 - 03:47 PM

McGrath, quite correct. Some posting at mudcat go beyond that, however.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Spanish Class- No 'black'!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jun 13 - 03:04 PM

"Judgement must be withheld until the administration responds. We may not know the full story until the matter comes up in trial."

We aren't in the business of."judging", just speculating. That's as far as this actual case goes. And so it is quite right that people move on from that to talking about the underlying principles, which is an area where we can have relevant information, and can make judgements.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Spanish Class- No 'black'!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 08 Jun 13 - 01:28 PM

"If her allegations are true.... "    No problem there.

It just seemed that some people were determined to avoid taking a stand--preferably by going off on their own tangents which had tenuous connection with the actual incident.

Not that this ever happens on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Spanish Class- No 'black'!
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Jun 13 - 01:11 PM

But no answer is verifiable yet.

If her allegations are true, then the firing was wrong.

So far, however, all we have are her allegations in a suit she has filed, and remarks made by her attorney at the time of filing.
Are other issues involved?

Judgement must be withheld until the administration responds. We may not know the full story until the matter comes up in trial.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Spanish Class- No 'black'!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Jun 13 - 11:13 PM

Don, it's not clear that everybody agrees with you and Bruce--and me.   Q and Kevin also made their stance clear early--that she should have not been fired based on that use of "negro". But some others were too busy beating their own drums to answer the question.

Good to know that some of us are willing to give a simple direct answer.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Spanish Class- No 'black'!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jun 13 - 06:09 PM

Obviously it's a matter of "if". We aren't a jury making reaching a verdict, we are people speculating on the basis of partial imformation. Just as is always the case.

Any opinion we express is by definition contingent. That especially includes the opinions we reach about other people being wrong in their opinions. Its a good idea to keep that in mind.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Spanish Class- No 'black'!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jun 13 - 06:09 PM

Obviously it's a matter of "if". We aren't a jury making reaching a verdict, we are people speculating on the basis of partial imformation. Just as is always the case.

Any opinion we express is by definition contingent. That especially includes the opinions we reach about other people being wrong in their opinions. Its a good idea to keep that in mind.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Spanish Class- No 'black'!
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Jun 13 - 12:12 PM

No. Depending on the amount of mixing, the genetic result is that some natives of the West Indies are very light-coloured (e. g., Martine Dennis, mentioned above).

The alleged epithets are the mouthings of ill-mannered children, mentioned(?) in the lawsuit filed by the teacher alleging that she was dismissed because she called a student Negro.

All press stories that I have seen are based on allegations in the lawsuit filed by the teacher, and her remarks to the press.

I have not yet seen any legal response from the school administration- until this is filed, we have the one-sided allegations in the teacher's lawsuit.

We cannot be sure that her allegations are true- she may have been dismissed for other reasons that those that she alleges.

We will not know the facts of the case until it comes up for trial (or is dismissed by a judge for reason).

Until more information is available, if the legal action goes forward, judgement should be withheld. I need say no more.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Spanish Class- No 'black'!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Jun 13 - 07:25 AM

[sigh]

First, she is a native of the West Indies!

Second, the following, from the article:

""Smith detailed the abuse she claims she often suffered at the hands of her students, who, according to her claims filed in court, called her "f***ing monkey," "cockroach" and "n****r." Smith said she had always risen above their insults.""

Clearer now?

Subject: RE: BS: PC Spanish Class- No 'black'!
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 08:58 PM

Socially and culturally Black, or skin black?

Subject: RE: BS: PC Spanish Class- No 'black'!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 07:59 PM

""The non-tenured junior high instructor, Petrona Smith, 65, was booted from the bilingual PS 211 in March 2012 after a seventh-grader reported the alleged insult.

Smith, who is black and a native of the West Indies, has been unemployed since her ouster.

"They haven't even accounted for how absurd it is for someone who's black to be using a racial slur to a student," said Shaun Reid, Smith's attorney. "Talk about context! There's a lot of things wrong here."""

One might assume that her lawyer would be capable and qualified to classify her colour.

Any questions?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Spanish Class- No 'black'!
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 05:39 PM

Don, ya gotta realize that there is no truth in this world unless it's The Omniscient Simple Seeker After Truth's version of reality.

Resistance is futile; you will be assimilated.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Spanish Class- No 'black'!
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 04:27 PM

Ron, why are you still beating on this? I think people have answered the question in a resounding "NO, she should NOT have been fired," over and over again.

The answer, once again, is NO, SHE SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN FIRED!

Clear?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: PC Spanish Class- No 'black'!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 03:38 PM

Also, how about the idea of making teaching actually attractive (now there's a concept)--not more of a minefield than it already is?

This will not make it more attractive, to put it mildly.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Spanish Class- No 'black'!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 03:31 PM

She was teaching colors.   The Spanish for black is "negro".   Sorry, that's the way it is. Too bad if it offends you.

She also taught that the Spanish word for black person (male) is moreno.

Neither of these sound like hanging (or firing ) offenses.

So it's back to the old question:    if she was in fact fired for using the word "negro" in teaching colors, is this justified?    Yes or no, no tome necessary.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Spanish Class- No 'black'!
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 01:36 PM

It is indeed silly. It reminds me of when I used to put my cats in Cat Shows. (Under the General Council of the Cat Fancy, GCCF) Each entry had to conform to the breed type, and there were designated limits to variation, eg 'Chartreuse green' for the eyes of a chinchilla long-haired cat (not just any old green!) and 'sapphire blue' for seal-point Siamese eyes, but 'forget-me-not blue' for blue-point Siamese eyes. It's quite sinister to view people in this way, as if their colour/race is all they are, like cats in a cat show. One of 'my' prisoners I visited made me laugh. He was always having to be described on Police ID forms. When they asked what colour his eyes were, he'd say, "Dunno, mate, I can't see them!"

Subject: RE: BS: PC Spanish Class- No 'black'!
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 01:10 PM

The teacher is described as Afro-Latino in one story (Black Enterprise, suggesting she is mixed-race. Her color may not be black. (Cf. Martine Dennis, BBCAmerica newscaster, Caribbean mixed race. Would she be described as black? Mixed Caucasoid-Negroid> Is senior BBC broadcasted Zeinab Bedawi Caucasoid or Negroid? She is northern Sudan-Egyptian in her immediate ancestry, so probably Caucasoid.
Some of this typing (British Police, esp.) is not only questionable but silly. Why nor just state color- black, brown, tan, white, with or without beard- watch out, if you are white or tanned with chin whiskers, you could be detained as possible Al Qaeda!

The stories in the press are based on the teacher's lawsuit against the City. We have not seen their defense. There may be more to the story than is carried in the press so far.

Many Afro-Americans are mixed race. Should all of them be described as Black? Nearly all the slaves in North America were from west Africa, of the Negroid group, but many of their descendants are so mixed with Caucasoid that they are no longer black.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Spanish Class- No 'black'!
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 10:55 AM


Except, Eliza, that until very recently, 'black', descriptively accurate as it may be, was seen as the offensive and racist term, while 'coloured' was the acceptable one.
Of course we have had a post stating that "negro" is now considered offensive in the US. This isn't the case in the UK and presumably not in the West Indies either.

We could interpret the whole thing as a racist sacking of a West Indian by Americans.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Spanish Class- No 'black'!
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 09:58 AM

That's why I facetiously write 'a rather sallow shade of pink' on the medical form. In Senegal, many of the Wolofs are literally jet black and so, so beautiful. In Cameroon and Cote d'Ivoire, they're a bit paler, more dark brown. It's all completely daft, trying to categorise. Actually, my husband has got paler and paler over the years living here. But of course, he's still negroid by race, calls himself black and is very proud of it. I tell him to sit in the sun a bit more to turn himself blacker. I suppose we could all be issued with shade cards like Dulux paint and choose the nearest match!

Subject: RE: BS: PC Spanish Class- No 'black'!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 07:18 AM

"Black" isn't actually "descriptively accurate for the vast majority of people so called, just as "white"isn't "descriptively accurate" for just avout anybody. If we were going for descriptive accuracy I suppose the most appropriate one would be to use the words "dark" and "fair", as with hair.   But if course it isn't about desription much of the time, it's about slotting people into categories.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Spanish Class- No 'black'!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 05:42 AM

You sound a very sensible lady, Eliza. Trouble is that common sense seems to be rather uncommon now and, as long as people think they can get away with it, they will continue to abuse the system. If they get found out they will simply play the race/colour/creed card and until someone stands up and says there are the good, the bad and the simply stupid in ALL cultures we will continue to have to endure it :-(

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: PC Spanish Class- No 'black'!
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 05:26 AM

I do feel we must continue to uphold the new mores where offensive, racist, homophobic or abusive remarks and words are no longer acceptable or tolerated. I approve for example the efforts to come down hard on racist jeering on the football pitch. But having witch hunts and jumping on innocent people is going too far and actually damages the cause. People now say 'PC gone mad". I once had a big red-haired lad of twelve come crying to me because people were calling him 'Ginger'. I asked him what colour his hair was, and he replied, "Ginger, Miss." What could one say? I'm afraid I told him to cheer up and laugh it off. I added that I was called 'SkinnyLegs' and 'The Galloping Hairpin' by my classmates, and as I was indeed skeletally thin, I just had to grin and bear it. He laughed and all was well. As I said, Common Sense.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Spanish Class- No 'black'!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 05:15 AM

Except, Eliza, that until very recently, 'black', descriptively accurate as it may be, was seen as the offensive and racist term, while 'coloured' was the acceptable one. The precise contrary is now the case [except that 'colored' survives in the name of the association for the advancement of black Americans ... aaarrrggghhh!]. There are just no explanations for some of these conventions or their mutations!

Cheers

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: PC Spanish Class- No 'black'!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 05:09 AM

Damn! Every time I think I've got the hang of this bloody HTML.........

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Spanish Class- No 'black'!
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 05:06 AM

Good point, Don. I agree that perhaps the pupil wasn't as offended as claimed, but merely looking for a way to 'get at' the teacher. After all, if the teacher herself is black, how could one object to her 'racism'? As a retired teacher, I've noticed cases in the paper and on TV where a pupil has claimed a member of staff 'hit' them or 'pushed' them. The poor teacher has been suspended and their entire career cast in jeopardy while investigations are made. It has often emerged that the teacher has an unblemished record of many decades, and the pupil had been a disruptive and even violent child, merely restrained from attacking other children in the school. I have quite a few times had to get between fighting lads in the playground, and seized collars/clothing to separate them. I could have been accused of 'touching' or 'pushing' in those cases. I also had a child who accused the school secretary of saying the 'f' word. In fact, ahe said to her assistant, "We can't discuss that now, there are flapping ears in the room." The child misheard and a whole day was taken up with a report and witness statement. Honestly, to stand in front of a class you need to have nerves of steel and monitor every word you speak. Heads of schools should be totally supportive (mine was, he stood by his staff 100%) Using the word 'black' to describe a black person cannot possibly be seen as racist. People should take large doses of Common Sense!

Subject: RE: BS: PC Spanish Class- No 'black'!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 05:05 AM

""It's clear that this woman- who herself is black--- should not have been fired if the main reason for the firing was using the word "negro" in a Spanish class.""

Didn't I just say that everybody agreed with that in the first instance Ron?

Having agreed, would page after page of repeats serve any purpose?......NO!

Other than making BB feel good, that is!

Would three, or five, or fifty repeats change his opinion of "liberals", or help the poor woman get her job back?......NO!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Spanish Class- No 'black'!
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 03:17 AM

The OP was simply a cut & paste news story posted without further comment, there was no Yes/No poll attached.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Spanish Class- No 'black'!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jun 13 - 03:05 AM

A no from me too - But, again, this goes without saying.

But may I point you in the direction of the opening post, Ron. Just a report of what happened. No questions at all. The implication being an invitation to discuss all aspects of what happened. There only seems to be you marching to a different drum on this.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: PC Spanish Class- No 'black'!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 08:38 PM

So a succession of posts just saying "no"...

Not much of a thread, if that's the only thing to say. It's a starting point, and a starting point shared by just about everyone who's posted - but there's more to say than that.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Spanish Class- No 'black'!
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 08:33 PM

Just to set the record straight, Ron, NO the teacher should NOT have been fired. The student who complained should have had a few straight facts explained to him/her, then given a swift kick in the keister and kept in after school for an intense course in remedial thinking.

I have the strong suspicion that the student had it in for the teacher for some reason and was just looking for an excuse. ANY excuse.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: PC Spanish Class- No 'black'!
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 07:56 PM

Oh, Simple Seeker After Truth: your questions have been answered, at length, in the first part of this discussion.

Do learn to read and comprehend English.

And you and Beardy are strange bedfellows, indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Spanish Class- No 'black'!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 06:53 PM

Bruce is right on this one.   It's not "attack a liberal week", just time for evenhanded treatment.


It's clear that this woman- who herself is black--- should not have been fired if the main reason for the firing was using the word "negro" in a Spanish class.

Now, do you agree with this or not?   Should the woman have been fired?   Yes or no?   No tome--or red herring, blind alley or other distraction needed.

If you do not answer, or do not answer with a direct yes or no, Bruce will have proven his point---which is the double standard often seen on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Spanish Class- No 'black'!
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 05:54 PM

What more did you want?

Beardy mostly just wants attention. Similar to a two-year-old.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Spanish Class- No 'black'!
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 05:33 PM

With beardedbruce, (and a couple of other people around here) every week is "find some reason to attack a Liberal" week.

It's called "brainfreeze."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: PC Spanish Class- No 'black'!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 05:38 AM

""I would have expected a notoriously liberal group to have at least some concern over this woman losing her job, and still being unemployed ("blacklisted"?) over this incident, but...""

I believe the first responses from all of us were concerned about the stupidity of dismissing her for no good reason.

What more did you want? Twenty seven pages of repeated rants on the subject?

That's more your style than the style of the "liberals" you attack.

Want us to start a revolution?

OK! You lead the way and we're right behind you. In my case at least 3000 miles behind, in the UK.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Spanish Class- No 'black'!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Jun 13 - 01:40 AM

Spot-on, Kevin.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Spanish Class- No 'black'!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 08:40 PM

Fulminating against an apparent injustice over and over again doesn't help anybody. There appears to be no news about how this case is working out. I'm sure most of us would hope that the sacked teacher gets justice, assuming that the facts as stated are correct, and also that those responsible will get appropriate penalties imposed upon them (which of course tends to be less likely.)

But the issues raised by this case are important, and discussing them here does make sense. One way and another most of us to navigate our way through this confused territory as the communities within which we live become ever more variegated, and new opportunities for getting things wrong present themselves. It's not just about abstract theory, it's also about how we behave and talk.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Spanish Class- No 'black'!
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 08:12 PM

BB, maybe we are numbed by the event, since there have been similar incidents for years in the States. Of course we are indignant and sympathetic, but students have been suspended as well as teachers for similar reasons.
Any mention or suggestion of race seems to be enough to get a person in trouble. It is a problem across the U.S.

Subject: RE: BS: PC Spanish Class- No 'black'!
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 04:05 PM

I think many of us were struck by the ridiculous nature of the complaint made against her, beardedbruce. Implied in that is indignation at her dismissal. I was a teacher myself for decades, so of course I feel for the lady, losing her livelihood for such a stupid reason. The discussions here have been concerned with how we view comments on race and appearance, and whether such observations are blameworthy or perfectly innocent and natural. Threads do drift, and that's part of the charm of this site surely?

Subject: RE: BS: PC Spanish Class- No 'black'!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 03:57 PM

I would have expected a notoriously liberal group to have at least some concern over this woman losing her job, and still being unemployed ("blacklisted"?) over this incident, but...

Whatever.

"Drift happens."