Origins: 'The Bloody Great Wheel'

Subject: RE: Origins: 'The Bloody Great Wheel'
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Jun 13 - 04:07 PM

GUEST was a cookieless me.

Sorry, Nigel, don't follow your logic. As it says, I was referring only to the most extreme ones like TBGW. If lots of wits were trying to come up with the vilest stuff why would only one survive?

Subject: RE: Origins: 'The Bloody Great Wheel'
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 17 Jun 13 - 02:00 PM

THinking about it a bit, isn't this another case of looking at a Victorian era song through modern sensibilities?

Subject: RE: Origins: 'The Bloody Great Wheel'
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 17 Jun 13 - 11:18 AM

While the creation of a machine that can't be stopped (I had a Chevy like that, once) may be criminal negligence,I see no indication that the woman was "controlling", nor any that she was "punished" for duch a propensity. Her only comment, prior to the violent and disgusting end, was "Enough, enough, I'm satisfied!"

Abby-
I think the "Crabfish" is considerably more sadistic, though perhspd a better song.

Subject: RE: Origins: 'The Bloody Great Wheel'
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Jun 13 - 11:13 AM

Surely the point of these most degrading rugby songs was to see who could come up with the worse form of excess, who could exaggerate the most, stretch their imaginations the furthest in vileness.
If that was the point then surely only one song would survive from the whole genre.
The fact that that isn't the case suggests your assumption is wrong.

Subject: RE: Origins: 'The Bloody Great Wheel'
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jun 13 - 10:40 AM

Surely the point of these most degrading rugby songs was to see who could come up with the worse form of excess, who could exaggerate the most, stretch their imaginations the furthest in vileness. It may only have its place in a few very limited situations, but it does have its place! Or did!

I think a good shrink would be able to tell us why young men in certain situations need to stretch the boundaries, so to speak.

I am not ashamed to admit that once I laughed at and revelled in such vile filth!

Subject: RE: Origins: 'The Bloody Great Wheel'
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Jun 13 - 02:58 PM

And if she was blameless, then why "the biter bit"?
"The biter bit" may be a typo for "the bitter bit", although I've always sung it (and heard it sung) as "Now we come to the tragic bit"

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: Origins: 'The Bloody Great Wheel'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jun 13 - 01:28 PM

But his 'helpful, technologically advanced' gadget was not fit for purpose ~~ there was no way of stopping it. And if she was blameless, then why "the biter bit"? So she died a peculiarly disgusting death, brought on by a combination of her insatiability and his neglectful inefficiency. That not a punishment then, Dick?

Accident? Manslaughter at least, in law, I should reckon. I can't imagine that volenti non fit injuria would have applied in this instance. (Is Richard about?)

Listen to the words, right back to you; and oblige me, if you would be so good, by not adopting that patronising tone.

~M~

Subject: RE: Origins: 'The Bloody Great Wheel'
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 16 Jun 13 - 12:20 PM

"it's more about dominance, and the fact that men can't bear a controlling woman, so any such has to be punished with a disgusting death."

Hardly. It's about a woman who couldn't be satisfied by normal means, and a helpful man who tries to help her with advanced technology. Her death was clearly an accident, following her "enough, enough, I'm satisfied!"

Listen to the words.

Subject: RE: Origins: 'The Bloody Great Wheel'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jun 13 - 12:11 PM

Have heard both versions of the name, G Silver. Dick Deadeye is a character in G&S {HMS Pinafore}, and I suspect he might have floated into E Nell by association of some sort; though either name will do, as both scan perfectly well, and it is of course a chimerical search for any definitive version of such a widespread work.

~M~

Subject: RE: Origins: 'The Bloody Great Wheel'
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 16 Jun 13 - 12:08 PM

Also just remembered "The Lobster"

Subject: RE: Origins: 'The Bloody Great Wheel'
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 16 Jun 13 - 12:06 PM

Just realised that "The Wild West Show" didn't get a mention yet... well it has now....
Chorus:-
Ok We're off to see the Wild West Show.
The elephant and the kangarooooooooo
Never mind the weather, as long as we're together,
We're off to see the Wild West Show....

And in this cage ladies and gentlemen we have the.......... Red Pepper bird!.... (crowd shouts) The Red Pepper bird What the ........ hells that? (narrator replies) The Red Pepper bird eats red pepper, drinks red pepper and flies backwards to keep his a..e cool! Back to the chorus and rthen onto another outrageous animal... any memories for anyone?

Subject: RE: Origins: 'The Bloody Great Wheel'
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 16 Jun 13 - 12:00 PM

Mthe GM.. on our rugby coach we used to use Deadeyed Dick.... and Mexican Pete.

Subject: RE: Origins: 'The Bloody Great Wheel'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jun 13 - 11:46 AM

'concluded it wasn't about sex at all.'
.,,.

No, indeed: a most cogent conclusion ~~ it's more about dominance, and the fact that men can't bear a controlling woman, so any such has to be punished with a disgusting death.

It has affinities in theme to Eskimo Nell, hasn't it? But that IMO has much wit. I remember many years ago (1969) having a Legman book to review: "The Rationale of the Dirty Joke", and corresponding with him a bit. I have dug out this correspondence and find inter alia having written to him about his view of Eskimo Nell ~~

"I disagree about its lacking 'the saving grace of humour' -- no room for detailed analysis, but take eg

...Deadwood Dick was breathing quick with lecherous snorts and grunts
As 40 arses were bared to view, to say nothing of 40 cunts.

Now 40 arses and 40 cunts, you'll find if you use your wits,
Or if you're slick at arithmetic, add up to 80 tits;
And 80 tits are a goodly sight to a man with a mighty stand.
It may be rare in Berkeley Square, but it's not on the Rio Grande.

The deflation, or bathos, at the end of the stanza after the great build up, by the incongruous introduction of the concept of upper class mores which are in their turn deflated by such an introduction into a situation in which their morality cannot apply, is surely humorous [& witty] in the extreme?"

I think I would stand by that judgement, BGW has its humour indeed; but I think many of the same points are better made by E Nell; who, far from being destroyed like the GBW's unfortunate wife, gets the better at every turn of Deadwood Dick, & of Mexican Pete, who at one point, in supposed revenge for her having got the better of his companion by deflating him almost immediately on penetration, inserts his pistol into her ~~

He shoved it up to the trigger-guard and fired it three times three,
And to his surprise she rolled her eyes and squealed in ecstasy

Must say I prefer Nell to Wheel, all in all, both morally & æsthetically.

~M~

Subject: RE: Origins: 'The Bloody Great Wheel'
From: Abby Sale
Date: 16 Jun 13 - 11:10 AM

I'm with you strongly on the book. I'd go so far as to call it one of the most important pieces on folksong we have. The revelation on the meanings of songs dramatically changing from the origin to today are startling. Jon's research is superb and patently proves the remarkable points.

As to BGW, even Legman hesitates on this one. He names it frankly - sadistic and misogynistic. The only note I've ever personally seen in Legman that suggests any pause whatsoever on bawdy or sadistic lines in folk song.

I think the difference these days may be similar to the moral or tolerance changes we have since BGW was first produced. The perceived humor of a blind person stumbling around or of kicking out a person's crutch or shooting him in the foot or punching out the sassy child seems to have changed. I admit I have no issue singing or hearing bawdy folk song and few taboo words bother me. (I sang a stronger version of The Old Sea Crab the other night and it went over well.)

But that's just sex. I don't sing BGW. I also don't sing "hateful" songs recommending or finding humorous the reviling any group - for me that includes sexual orientation, race or even preferred musical instrument. I don't permit ethnic jokes in my house or hearing.

I was struck when I discovered I objected to BGW. At least to my _own_ singing of it. Surprised me, that did. It didn't bother me much as a child but I finally concluded it wasn't about sex at all.

Subject: RE: Origins: 'The Bloody Great Wheel'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jun 13 - 10:40 AM

Let me add that I got a copy of Jon's book mentioned above from Dick, & found it most fascinating.

~M~

Subject: RE: Origins: 'The Bloody Great Wheel'
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 16 Jun 13 - 10:31 AM

A tangential comment to Jon's study of "Johnny, I Hardly Knew Ye" AKA "THe BEst Anti-War Song Ever Written":

It provides a brilliant demonstration of how sensibilities and reactions to songs change drastically over a relatively brief period of time.

Subject: RE: Origins: 'The Bloody Great Wheel'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jun 13 - 10:25 AM

Yes, indeed. Auchendoon, Harlaw, &c were the exceptions I mentioned.

These came to mind without much prompting. I am sure there were more I have forgotten for the moment ~~~

Many cumulative songs like Cosher Bailey [Did you ever see?] or QM's stores have disobliging variants to verses

BGW
Queen of all the fairies [aka Leave it alone, play with your own][tune Blaze away]
Mary in the mountain glen [They called the bastard Stephen]
3 old ladies locked in the lavatory
Chastity belt
Sexual life of the camel [tune Eton Btg Song]
Eskimo Nell [to tune Annie Laurie]
Good Ship Venus
My god how the money rolls in [tune Bonny over ocean]
Little Angeline
Roll me over
Caviare
Sweet violets
One-eyed Riley
Christopher Robin variants
In the south of France [aks When your balls hang low]
Hitler has only got one ball [tune Col Bogey]
Where was the engine-driver?[ ditto]
Boolox & the asame to you [ditto]
Inky-pinky parleyvoo [aka Mlle from Armentieres]

~M~

Subject: RE: Origins: 'The Bloody Great Wheel'
From: Lighter
Date: 16 Jun 13 - 09:38 AM

Thanks, M. Bear in mind that "Child ballads" run the gamut from the irreducibly stark "Lord Randall" and "Edward" to the later elaborations of Peter Buchan (or some say his informants).


"TBGW" has little or no significant moralizing filler. On the positive side, and more important, I think, are its narrative concision and the fact that it really does tell a story in rhymed stanzas.

The first-person element you refer to is inconsequential. Recall the "I" in, e.g., "The Battle of Harlaw" and "The Burning of Auchindoun." As in "TBGW," these "narrators of convenience" play no role in the story itself.

M, if you have plenty of time on your hands, I'd love to know the specifics of your repertoire at Aldershot. (For an alarmingly growing number of people, 1951 is rather like the Great War or earlier for the likes of us....) PM me if you like!

(And make that "two Egg McMuffin Meals." Still cheap!)

Subject: RE: Origins: 'The Bloody Great Wheel'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jun 13 - 09:11 AM

Not quite sure about the Child ballad bit; most ballads are not first person narrations ["An engineer told me before he died"]; and lack moralistic interjections by the narrator ["But woe alas, the biter bit"]. Tho there are admittedly one or two exceptions. But an interesting piece of Industrial Balladry, without a doubt. Pity Bert is no longer around to ask about it (though I suspect he might be a bit 'creative' about its provenance!)

I think it an accomplished piece of versification, to be sure; and have often sung it to the appreciation of the right audience [coach on way to football (soccer: I was a goalkeeper, not a rugger-bugger), eg, or army barrack room ~~ I was noted in 2 Trg Bn, RASC, Oudenarde Barracks, Aldershot, 1951, as the one with the biggest repertoire of barrack-room songs!]. I think it sufficiently witty to pass muster as a worthwhile piece of creative writing, to put it no higher.

Good luck with the project.

~M~

Subject: Origins: 'The Bloody Great Wheel'
From: Lighter
Date: 16 Jun 13 - 07:40 AM

This rugby and military favorite is among the most unpleasant and reviled, yet frequently sung, narrative songs in English. Think about *that* for a moment. Then understand that "The BGW" meets every qualification of the "Child ballad," except that a decent Victorian professor like Child would have been outraged even to know it existed.
(Though the inspiration clearly goes back to the 1830s.)


I am revising a detailed discussion of this song and would like to have some input from 'Catters, some of whom have presumably sung "The GBW" (or a least heard it sung) more than most other people.

Common reactions range from "I wish I didn't know this song!" and "It encourages violence against women" to "funniest bleeping thing I've ever heard" and "ROFLMFAO!!" As a researcher, I'm not really allowed an opinion.

A noticeable absence in folksong research is in the realm of singers; own opinions about the songs they sing, what they mean, and why and when they bothered to learn them and what they think of them years later.

So does anyone have any special recollections, associations, or strong feelings connected with "The Bloody Great Wheel"? Or is it just another pointless thingie to fill up your brain?

(Shameless self-promo: my published study of "Johnny I Hardly Knew Ye" is still available from Dick Greenhaus at CAMSCO for about the price of two Egg McMuffins. Cheap! The nourishing conclusions may surprise you. "The Bloody Great Wheel" should follow.)