BS: Egypt?

Subject: BS: Egypt?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Jul 13 - 06:49 AM

What do the protesters really want?

Liberty from religious dogma (if any) from the "Muslim Brotherhood"?

Or just to be wealthier (a difficult demand in current world conditions)?

Or what?

What are the world-level risks from the current Egyptian unrest?

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 13 - 07:43 AM

After the euphoria of toppling the old regime, a year of Morsi has been a let down.
The Brotherhood got more votes than other groups, but still a small minority.
Most people do not want Islamism.

The worst case is that the army will take control again.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Jul 13 - 08:24 AM

But how Islamist has Morsi been?

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: bobad
Date: 02 Jul 13 - 08:41 AM

From The Daily Beast:

"Since winning the first parliamentary election, and then the presidency, the Brotherhood has broken every promise it has made to friend and foe alike. It has not only alienated, it has infuriated, almost everyone outside of its core constituency or its direct partners. The degree of overreaching and political miscalculation has shocked even those of us who took the Muslim Brothers to be political cretins.

They rammed through a ridiculous, counter-revolutionary Constitution by terrifying the country with a red herring "constitutional declaration" that granted virtually monarchical powers to the President, far exceeding those of any of Egypt's modern dictators. They've attempted to purge the judiciary. They are clearly trying to take over the Armed Forces by stacking its junior cadres with their own members. They've gone on a veritable bender applying blasphemy and libel laws at the drop of a hat against a breathtaking array of minority groups and political opponents, and even satirists."

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Jul 13 - 11:31 AM

The myth of "democracy" exposed.....next?....the myth of "equality"

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Jul 13 - 12:27 PM

So that of which people disapprove was not conduct that was Islamist, nor even Islamic, but the seizure of the forms of power?

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: bobad
Date: 02 Jul 13 - 01:02 PM

Guess you missed this part:

"They've gone on a veritable bender applying blasphemy and libel laws at the drop of a hat against a breathtaking array of minority groups and political opponents, and even satirists."

Take a look at how the Christian Copts are faring under Islamic rule.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Jul 13 - 02:07 PM

Have the Morsi regime changed such laws?

What has been done to the Christian Copts?

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Jul 13 - 02:13 PM

Where is the evidence of newly imposed theocratic governance - as for example claimed here -

http://www.catholic.org/clife/advent/story.php?id=51561


Bear in mind - I was concerned at the election victory of the Muslim Brotherhood - I want to know what it has actually done that is attributable to Islam or Islamism, or what other vectors have brought about the massive dissent.

I wouldn't mind contrasting it with the inexplicable absence of a popular uprising in the UK, mind.



Oh - and please, Wannabee Pharaoh - don't just tell us that the sky is falling. Clarify what sort of sky you'd prefer. Thanks in advance.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Jul 13 - 02:18 PM

A claim that "it's the economy, stupid" http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/352555/copts-under-gun-religious-freedom-egypt-kathryn-jean-lopez


Little here seems to finger the Morsi regime in discrimination against Copts http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copts#Persecution_and_discrimination_in_Egypt

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Jul 13 - 02:29 PM

The BBC suggests a drive towards Islamisation - but gives no relevant examples - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23151452

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Jul 13 - 02:34 PM

A superficial profile of the Tamarod movement - which still leaves almost nothing answered -

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23131953


Given the importance that so many attached to "the Arab Spring" the lack of information on this unwinding of the spring seems remarkable.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: bobad
Date: 02 Jul 13 - 03:42 PM

From the presentation of Mamdouh Nakhla a Christian Copt and chairman of the al-Kalema, "Word", Organization for Human Rights to the fifth session of the UN Forum on Minority Isuues in Geneva:

"Those Copts suffer being marginalized, under discriminatory acts on many of their rights through many decades but it got harder after January 25th 2010, when the Islamists reached power of the state.   

1- Many of the Copts are exposed to daily assaults by some fundamentalists and extremists without any legal justification.

Their churches are burnt, their prosperities are damaged, their economical activities are sabotaged, and they were forced to leave their lands and houses in addition to the forceful migration.

In many of these cases the criminals were not arrested or if arrested they were released or escaped penalty, in so many occasions the Copts were forced on reconciliation with those criminals without a fair trial.

http://www.minorityvoices.org/news.php/fr/1323/egypt-copts-exposed-to-daily-assaults-says-chairman-of-rights-group

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Jul 13 - 04:02 PM

Thank you. But how is that linked to the Morsi regime?

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: bobad
Date: 02 Jul 13 - 04:13 PM

WTF? Do you ever read anything?

"...it got harder after January 25th 2010, when the Islamists reached power of the state."

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Jul 13 - 05:53 PM

That expresses temporal synchronicity, not causation. Don't you ever THINK about anything?

AND it sets out no causative mechanism.

Sometimes I think it would be nice if stupidity was a terminal condition. Darwin and all that. Sheesh!

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: bobad
Date: 02 Jul 13 - 06:33 PM

Well, now you're just being an asshole - but you're a lawyer.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 03:59 AM

Reuters April 2013.

In his first interview since emerging from seclusion after eight people were killed in sectarian violence between Muslims and Christians this month, the pope called official accounts of clashes at Cairo's Coptic cathedral on April 7 "a pack of lies".

He also voiced dismay at attempts by President Mohamed Mursi's Islamist allies to purge thousands of judges appointed under ousted President Hosni Mubarak, saying the judiciary was a pillar of Egyptian society and should not be touched.

"There is a sense of marginalization and rejection, which we can call social isolation," the pope told Reuters on Thursday of the feelings of Christians, who he said make up at least 15 percent of Egypt's 84 million people. Most Egyptians are Sunni Muslims.

Attacks on churches and sectarian tensions increased significantly after the rise of Islamists to power following the 2011 uprising that overthrew Mubarak, even though Christians had demonstrated alongside Muslims for his removal.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 04:09 AM

Richard...When the sky falls, as it is doing all over the developed world, even my extensive store of scaffolding will not be enough to effect repairs.
Reconstruction will involve several generations and a complete change in how we view our allotted time on the planet.

In my view some sort of spirituality will be involved, but not an "organised religion", as well as re-education on the protection,not exploitation of nature.

I think at the end of the day,the colour of my sky will be not far removed from the colour you would wish for.

It won't be easy...and there will be no Health and Safety inspectors.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 05:10 AM

Now that is more like information. Not a lot more, but a little. Of course Mubarak's judges could have been bent and so far do we have evidence that Morsi judges are bent?

Have there been a raft of new laws, tilted the Sharia way?

I am aware that there is talk of, effectively, a licence to grope women who are not dressed "modestly" - but does it come from the regime or other religious diehards and nutters?

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: bobad
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 08:22 AM

A fairly good, although from a conservative perspective, synopsis of the reasons for the uprising in Egypt - it's not that simple:

"Much of the commentary we're seeing conflates two importantly different things: opposition to the Brotherhood and opposition to Islamic rule. The prospect of being governed by sharia has always been more attractive to Egyptians than the prospect of a sharia state administered by the Brotherhood, whose well-deserved reputation for dishonesty makes it unpopular with both secularists and the groups referred to as "Salafists" — Islamic supremacist organizations, other than the Brotherhood, that are even more zealous for rapid Islamization than the Brothers.

The commentary seems to assume that everyone on the streets is a pro-democratic secularist. Not true. What unifies the protesters — who include former regime elements, hard Leftists, and persecuted religious minorities, in addition to pro-Western democrats and transnational progressives — is that they detest Morsi and the Brothers. It is not "democracy." Many of the protesters would prefer to have a military government (when Morsi was elected president, the candidate he edged out in the run-off was a Mubarak relic, not a democrat). Many say they want "democracy" but are not in harmony about what that actually means."

Will the Egyptian Military Scrap the Sharia Constitution?

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 12:13 PM

I just hope our governments keep well clear of doing anything about it, which would certainly make things worse. As with Syria.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 01:18 PM

It seems to me that they've forgotten that they ELECTED this one, and that they are supposed to VOTE him out of office.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 04:21 PM

Oops - just heard he's out. US embassy evacuating (as is Morsi, I'm sure).

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 04:53 PM

Thank you bobad - that makes a LOT more sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 05:19 PM

When are we going to start supplying the opponents of the coup with weapons....or set up a no fly zone?

Are there different kinds of "democracy"?

Is it all nunsense?

Is someone taking the piss?

How many knots can a "liberal" tie himself in?

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 07:20 PM

I'm glad I visited Egypt in May of 2012, not this year. I was there just before the elections, and things were hopeful and relatively calm. I get the impression that this has been a very tough year for Egypt. When we cruised the Nile last year, 40 of 400 cruise boats were operating, and ours had 40 passengers on a ship that held 140. There seemed to be good numbers of peoples at the temples and other historic sites, but it wasn't crowded anywhere. I imagine many of these places are like ghost towns now.
The streets of Cairo and Alexandria were jammed with traffic last year, and it'm my understanding that vehicle traffic has never slacked off.
I noticed a lot of harassment of women, including some physical violence. I understand that in the last year, vigilante groups have tried to control some of this harassment, since the police have done nothing.
There is no easy answer to the situation in Egypt. The Islamists see many things as detrimental to their living a religious life, and the non-religious people see the Islamists as a thread to the tourism that the only source of income for so many.
I have a friend who's a tour guide in Luxor. He is always careful to be very diplomatic in what he says, because it's just not safe to be frank - so I don't really know what he thinks.
-Joe-

---

USA Today: Army Ousts Morsi, orders new elections in Egypt

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 08:33 PM

I suppose one way of looking at it might be as a kind of improvised "power of recall".

Typically people get elected making various promises and pledges which they throw over once they are elected, doing things they prmised not to do, and not doing things they promised to do.

I'm not sure how far that's been true of Morsi, but I suspect that a lot of the people who've been demonstrating against him would see it that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 08:35 PM

Here's the problem: fascism...

One side get's the power and vamps on the other side and then...

...the other side get's power and vamps on the other side...

Until folks figure out how to share power Egypt will do this every year or two until they have their own civil war (which it won't be) and kill everyone off...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Songwronger
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 11:34 PM

Pictures from Egypt

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 11:57 PM

Obama was trying to walk the narrow line and officially 'support' the guy that got 51% of the vote...knowing full well that 49% did NOT want Morsi.

What else can the US do besides say that "we hope the Egyptian people will find a path to stability that promotes freedom and fairness to all."?

It's a no-win situation trying to straddle that fence.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Songwronger
Date: 04 Jul 13 - 12:03 AM

Obama gave Mubarak an ultimatum, to step down "or else." Then Obama helped install the party from hell. Mission accomplished, he moved on to Libya, where he collected all the al queada riff raff he could to fight the popular Assad government. He's going to send them Stinger missiles now. Obama IS a terrorist. The Egyptians have figured it out.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: bobad
Date: 04 Jul 13 - 08:33 AM

The US props up Egypt's military to the tune of 1.5 billion dollars per annum.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Amos
Date: 04 Jul 13 - 10:34 AM

Their issues are too many people, too much sand, not enough water; the huge bulk of the population is crammed into poverty and Cairo. The military doesn't want to lose its position of privilege it had under Mubarak and his predecessors. The government is saddled with debt. The nation that was the breadbasket of Rome now imports half its wheat, a major dietary staple. There are huge regions of land which cannot be used because they are desert.

To me the critical junction-point is water, and desalination.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 13 - 11:47 AM

Yes, there are all those problems. There is also the problem that the USA/Great Britain/Israel axis have considered Egypt to be part of their Greater Middle East Prosperity Sphere for a long time now, but they're having a hard time keeping it under control lately, because the aspirations of the Egyptian public are causing the edifice to crumble. Mubarak did what he was supposed to do for the Anglo-American Alliance for a long time, but his people grew restless for democracy and modernization. Finally his position became completely untenable. So, Obama reluctantly decided that Mubarak had to go...they would symbolically chop off the head of the "bad guy" to make it look like things were changing...a standard propaganda technique...but nothing really changes except the "face" at the top of the power pyramid.

Next, get a new stooge elected, preferably a fundamentalist Muslim stooge, because that's who Anglo-American likes to work with...what they absolutely detest is an independent secular government in a Muslim country...which is what the Russians usually favor (although not necessarily an independent one always...thinking of Afghanistan's Najibullah there...but certainly a secular one).

Saddam's was an independent secular government, and they (Anglo-American Alliance) got rid of him. Gaddafi's was an independent secular government, and they got rid of him. Assad's is an independent secular government, and they've been trying to get rid of him for some time.

This latest attempt to prop up a Muslim fundamentalist government in Egypt has evidently failed, due to majority of the Egyptian people realizing "they was had". What happens next? We'll see.

The reason the Anglo-American Empire does what it does is simple: Divide and Conquer. How do you control a subject region when you're building an empire? You exacerbate the existing divisions among its different tribes, cultural, and religious groups. In Vietnam, they used the Vietnamese Catholic minority and the Montagnards against the Buddhist majority. In North America they used the various Indian tribes against each other. In the Middle East they use Sunnis against Shiites, Kurds against Sunnis and Shiites and Turks, Alawites and Shiites against Sunnis in Syria, Jews against Muslims against Christians, moderate Muslims and modernists against fundamentalists and Jihadists. While all these people are provoked to violence and set up to kill each other off, the West's politicians wring their hands publicly over the humanitarian crisis and cry crocodile tears...and the western corporations secure what they're after. Oil, Lithium, control of local governments and other strategic resources. And Israel expands its land holdings.

The Egyptians are in a bad spot, and it will probably get worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jul 13 - 11:57 AM

Woe, woe, and thrice woe...

So if Egypt was the breadbasket of Rome (and I think I remember that from Roman history at school) and still has one of the biggest rivers in the world flowing through it - why is it not more agriculturally productive?

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Jul 13 - 01:09 PM

Because they dammed the river and stopped the annual flooding.

If the people ask the military to take over, though, IS it a coup?

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: selby
Date: 04 Jul 13 - 02:02 PM

Was in Egypt in June the people where struggling, huge queues for petrol/diesel, there was graffiti on the Coptic churches and I was told it was anti Coptic, I was also told that all Egyptians have lived together well enough, but now there was brother against brother. The number of boats working the Nile had dropped to 30 in Luxor and consequently the tourist trade was in meltdown causing more problems for Egyptians. Nobody would specifically say what the root of the problem was but enough suggestions led us to believe the goverment was not performing and had its own agenda and not an agenda for the people

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 13 - 02:12 PM

Whether a "coup" is a coup or not is strictly a matter of opinion, depending on one's favored line of propaganda.

"the goverment was not performing and had its own agenda and not an agenda for the people" Gee, that sounds familiar! ;-) I think that's what we have here too...

The Egyptian people were right to want an end to Mursi's rule. What worries me is what will be foisted on them next.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jul 13 - 05:11 PM

Mrzzy, please expand and explain why it is irreversible.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 13 - 02:11 PM

Consider - 1 million Egyptians on the streets, which means I believe almost 70 million not on the streets. Are the one million representative of the other 70 million? I doubt it.

What Egypt does have in its favour is that there is more or less just one tribe and one religion, so the problems of many other Middle Eastern states where they don't know what they want but they want it now does not exist there.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Jul 13 - 04:26 PM

Don't tell the Copts that Egypt is "just one tribe and one religion." The Copts were in Egypt before Islam came to be, and they still make up ten percent of the population.

My sister lived in Alexandria for a year until June, 2012 - and I visited her there for most of the month of May, 2012. I found it to be a fascinating place, and I met some wonderful people there. I couldn't find out how important government and politics are to most Egyptians. I think they're more concerned about day-to-day living, and feel that politics is beyond their control.

My sister found an interesting analysis of the happenings of the last few days. Take a look: http://english.ahram.org.eg/News/75808.aspx

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jul 13 - 03:42 AM

Coptic priest murdered.
Christian homes torched.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Jul 13 - 01:38 PM

When and by whom Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jul 13 - 02:07 PM

The houses near Luxor a couple of days ago.

Egypt Independent


Al-Masry Al-Youm

Reuters




A Coptic priest was shot dead Saturday (yesterday) on al-Sentral Street in the North Sinai neighbourhood of al-Masaeed.

Gunmen shot dead a Coptic Christian priest in Egypt's lawless region in the third recorded instance of sectarian violence against Christians since President Mohamed Morsy was ousted.

The shooting in the coastal city of Arish was one of several attacks believed to be by Islamist insurgents that included firing at four military checkpoints in the region, the sources said.

A security source said Saturday that gunmen riding a motorcycle shot dead the priest, named as 39-year-old Mena Aboud Sharoben, who lived in Arish.

The source added the motivations behind the murder were not known.



Maspero Youth Union meanwhile denounced what they identified as Muslim Brotherhood attacks on churches, claiming sectarian attacks aimed at hurting the revolution and undermining people's demands for freedom.



"The president's supporters attacked [the] churches in Luxor, Qena, Minya, Towa, Sharm el-Sheikh and Marsa Matrouh," the statement said.



"We say to them, tear down all the churches, it is not going to stop us from building Egypt...We will use the stones of our churches to build our homeland."

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Jul 13 - 04:40 PM

So the first one is unexplained and the second on the face of it looks remarkably like a political conjuration - not to mention one not in fact linked to the regime (or should I say deposed regime?) and plainly impossible to be connected to the regime's own activities while it was the regime.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jul 13 - 02:57 AM

So you prefer not to know?
Persecution of minorities is an important issue in the Egyptian struggle.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Jul 13 - 04:48 AM

No, Keith, I want to know the truth. I do know from experience that I cannot rely on you to present truths that might cast Islam in a favourable light, whereas I can rely on you to present possible facts and innuendo that cast it in an unfavourable light.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jul 13 - 04:58 AM

Did I present any fact that was only a "possible fact" or any "innuendo"?
I resent your criticism which is undeserved.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Jul 13 - 09:03 AM

100    /2

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: bobad
Date: 09 Jul 13 - 07:39 AM

This 12 year old Egyptian boy succinctly dissects the political situation in Egypt: The future president of Egypt

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jul 13 - 11:46 AM

That is one impressive boy. The thing is, he isn't just parrotting politcal jargon. He understands it and is thinking it through.
........................

It's a nightmare situation, and it seems impossibble to identify one side to support and the other to revile. As in Syria for that matter.

The bottom line has to be to recognise that a simple in/out model of politics doesn't work in many divided societies, and some kind of powersharing has to be involved. The alternative is majority tyranny, perhaps alternating with minority tyranny.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jul 13 - 12:18 PM

Mubarak outlawed FGM, and the Moslem Brotherhood wanted to bring it back. That's as good a reason as I can think of, for ousting them.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Jul 13 - 12:58 PM

Fair point if true. Is it and do they?

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: bobad
Date: 09 Jul 13 - 01:29 PM

"The Brotherhood and its offspring, the presidency, never considered violence against women to be an important issue, even when they said otherwise. Their support of female genital mutilation (FGM) is just one example. Attempts were made in the short-lived Islamist-dominated parliament to decriminalise it and if it hadn't been for the vocal opposition of women, the legislation might have passed. When Morsi was once asked about his views on the subject, instead of clearly and unambiguously condemning the practice, he said that it was a decision that should be left to the family concerned. Thus the brutal cutting up of a piece of a girl's flesh was treated by him with the same kind of callous indifference as the decision to go for a family picnic."

Amira Nowaira        
guardian.co.uk, Monday 18 March 2013 12.59 GMT

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jul 13 - 01:32 PM

BBC 19th June 2013
When they tell the girl it is a religious practice she believes Islam is against her," she says. "So her perception of religion is changed."

Dr Adly fears there is currently no political will in Egypt to enforce the laws that ban female genital mutilation.

'Common sense'
On the contrary, there have been statements from the ruling Muslim Brotherhood defending the practice.
While, in the past, some clerics in Egypt have stated that female genital mutilation has no religious basis, other clerics continue to openly advocate it.

"'Circumcision' is ordered by Allah, Sharia [Islamic religious law] from Allah. Orders from Allah must be realised," says Sheikh Yussef al-Badri, a cleric who has repeatedly petitioned the country's courts to make female genital mutilation legal again.


Sheikh Yussef al-Badri: "[Circumcision] makes a girl control her common sense about sex"
Sheikh Badri claimed Muslim countries in which the practice did not take place were imitating the West and were not pious, and insisted it was necessary for a harmonious society.

"This makes the girl control her common sense about sex because women quickly feel sex, before men."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-22975400

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Jul 13 - 07:51 PM

Bobad - I find your evidence interesting.

Keith - the usual Islamaphobic rants with [rant on] NOTHING TO LINK IT TO THE MORSI GIVERNMENT. Badri is an idiot with no insight into reflexology. Wiki on him http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yusuf_al-Qaradawi.

Connection to the Morsi regime - Oh, hello Keith "he's another brown Muslim and they are all the same aren't they????????

I also find a man who suspects that "women quickly feel sex, before men" has a medical problem!

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jul 13 - 08:58 PM

That vid of the articulate young Egyptian boy bodad posted comes from a site called freearabs.com, which has a lot of other stuff worth looking at, including some interesting songs, and some genuinely funny material.

"A group of free-minded bloggers, journalists, activists and creators, we are dispersed throughout the Middle East, North Africa and the rest of the world. Keen on perpetuating the spirit of the Arab Spring, we confront both oppressive autocrats and religious zealots with audacious reporting, candid whistle-blowing… and ferocious derision!"

http://freearabs.com

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 01:07 AM

The BBC does not do "Islamophobic rants" Richard.
Did you miss,
"Dr Adly fears there is currently no political will in Egypt to enforce the laws that ban female genital mutilation.
'Common sense'
On the contrary, there have been statements from the ruling Muslim Brotherhood defending the practice."?

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 01:43 AM

We in UK should not be smug about FGM.
It is illegal here but therehas not been a single conviction.
Over a hundred in France.
Police and Social Services are reluctant to intervene for fear of being called "Islamophobic" by people like Richard.
They share some of the responsibility.

"In England, you are very respectful of your immigrants," she says.

"It is very different in France. They have to integrate and they have to obey our laws."
She walks me over to the Eurostar platform to tell me the story of two little girls who were about to board the train headed for St. Pancras to be mutilated in the UK.
"It was a Friday. We heard just in time. They had tickets for the Saturday.

"A family member tipped us off. We told the police and they were stopped from making the journey."

The parents were cautioned. Had they gone ahead with the mutilations and been found out, they would have been imprisoned for up to 13 years.

"We simply will not tolerate this practice," Isabelle explains.

Does she think many French children have been cut in the UK?

"Yes, because you do not care," she says.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-18900803

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: selby
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 03:23 AM

When we where in Egypt earlier this year we saw at first hand the poverty that has gripped this country. In its basic form all human beings only want enough food to feed their family at the moment that is not happening in Egypt. Huge queues for fuel, so how does a Taxi driver/Wagon driver make a living if he is queuing half off the day he looses revenue and eventually he cant afford fuel,goods are not delivered, a downward spiral. Talking to Egyptians the big thing, to me, in their lives was tolerance and respect for everyone coupled with a huge expectation of better times now they had a democracy. It was never going to be easy for anyone to put all the problems right in 12 months unfortunately the elected parliament appears to have lost sight of he main issues and concentrated on some of its own issues. Whatever the rights or wrongs of the politics of what has just happened, the people suffering is the populace trying to make a living. in conversations, I believe a lot of them knew that the first democracy was failing and had to get out of the situation, although we can have no effect it is time for every political party in Egypt to get off their own agendas and bring this country and people into a robust and sensible democracy I for one wish the Egyptians success in sorting out their problems, although sadly at the moment I cannot see this happening
Keith

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 09:12 AM

" I for one wish the Egyptians success in sorting out their problems"
I couldn't agree more.
When we were in Egypt years ago the poverty there was blindingly obvious wherever you looked.
Things were even worse when we visited Morocco, where the citizens of Agidir were still living without electricity or water, in makeshift huts built on the rubble of an earthquake that had taken place decades before, .
These countries are desperately poor and this attempt to challenge the failings of the results of the Arab Spring which brought about the first teetering steps towards democracy, have nothing whatever to do with 'being fed up with Islamism'; they present the greatest hope for genuine reforms.   
I have little doubt that if The Bush Baptists offered some sort of genuine solution to poverty, they would get a hearing from the Egyptian people as things stand at present.
It is not "complacency" or indifferent to suggest and hope that changes to the excesses of the religious oppression such as female genital mutilation - or even disestablishment from the church, might follow democratic change, it is simply an understanding of the most pressing issues.
These arguments would ring a little truer if they were directed (by our various arms-supplying Western governments hopefully) towards some of our oil-supplying partners with their beheadings and stonings.
These threads once again appear to have become the stamping-ground of those intent on using them for their favourite preoccupation of Muslim-bashing - the usual suspects again - whose protestations might carry a little more conviction if they hadn't relatively recently suggested that the Morsi Government's word should be taken as sacrosanct over that of the opposition who were (via their "obscure journals") pointing out the real reason that Morsi had closed the smuggling tunnels - any port in a storm - eh what!
Give it a break eh!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 10:43 AM

So using a BBC quote is "Muslim bashing", right Jim?

As I told Richard, the BBC is not known for "Islamophobic rants."
It is known for its objective reporting of the facts.

There are some truths that you people prefer not to see, right Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 11:45 AM

""Muslim bashing", right Jim?"
No - but homing in on something that is entirely irrelevant to the subject in hand most certainly is and is a common practice with you on thread after thread after thread.......
What on earth has female genital mutilation got to do with what is happening in Egypt at present?
Not forgetting of course that the West has no claim to the high ground as far as the treatment of women are concerned and has its own equivalents to FGM.
There certainly are some truths that some people will run miles from to avoid.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 12:59 PM

I can't see how it's any business of non-Egyptians to line up on either side in this situation, or speculate which side we'd be on if we were Egyptians.

If we were in a situation where there was an orchestrated attempt to get public opinion on the site of the (post-coup) opposition, with a view to helping them achieve power, as has been happening in the case of Syria, then it might indeed be relevant to draw people's attention to some of its more unpleasant aspects, such as attitudes towards FGM. But at this point that isn't happening.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 01:24 PM

Jim, this is how FGM came into this thread, so your criticism should be aimed at Richard and certainly not me!

From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jul 13 - 12:18 PM

Mubarak outlawed FGM, and the Moslem Brotherhood wanted to bring it back. That's as good a reason as I can think of, for ousting them.

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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Richard Bridge - PM
Date: 09 Jul 13 - 12:58 PM

Fair point if true. Is it and do they?

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 01:27 PM

the West has no claim to the high ground as far as the treatment of women are concerned and has its own equivalents to FGM.
There certainly are some truths that some people will run miles from to avoid.
But certainly not me Jim.
I just highlighted the appalling record of UK in FGM.
We turn a blind eye.
Like the Brotherhood, we allow families to choose.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 02:12 PM

This is enlightening about what the US has been up to in Egypt recently.

covert American funding of Morsi's opponents

Blatantly illegal under both US and Egyptian law, not that that would ever be a consideration for a recent US president.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 03:16 PM

"We turn a blind eye."
Nobody turns a blind eye - the scabloid press is always bringing it up, as are the BNP and people like yourself.
You have accused people who have not responded tyo your call to arms as "complacent" - they aren't; it has no place in this discussion other than as yet another opportunity by people like you to present Muslims as sub-human (except those who have managed to resist their "cultural implants - they are merely untrustworthy near children!)
Other than obeying national laws, Muslims are the only ones fitted to deal with religious excesses and influences, interference leads to entrenchment and resentment. I suggest you direct tour attention nearer home when it comes to the treatment of women.
Usually you are the first to squeal "thread drift" when you get out of your depth, until, like here, it suits your single-handed crusade; then you make the Marie Celeste look like the Cutty Sark.
FGM has nothing whatever to do with the Egyptian situation.
Couldn't help but notice you managed to sidestep your previous support for the Morsi mob - what do you reckon - send him some riot control gear as you suggested with Assad?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 05:40 PM

FGM has nothing whatever to do with the Egyptian situation.
Maybe not Jim, but I was responding directly to Richard's query about FGM in Egypt.
Direct your bile at him.

I only quoted the BBC, who are neither the "scabloid press" nor the "BNP."

Why must you always make these things personal?

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 05:58 PM

Usual Islamophobic crap from Keith.

NOTHING he says shows the Morsi government accommodating FGM.

OTOH, I have been involved in collecting evidence of it in the UK and reporting it to the police.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 06:12 PM

Nobody turns a blind eye
Then why no single conviction here, and why are little girls brought here to be mutilated?

Usual Islamophobic crap from Keith.
It is from BBC, not me.
They are known for their objectivity, not for Islamophobic crap.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 06:23 PM

NOTHING he says shows the Morsi government accommodating FGM.
Not true Richard.
The BBC extract had this statement,"On the contrary, there have been statements from the ruling Muslim Brotherhood defending the practice."

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 07:20 PM

When it comes to Female Genital Mutilation the focus, for people in the UK, ought to be on the failure of society to respond to it in an effective way. In the last two years, according to the NSPCC, approximately 1,700 victime have been treated for it. Three days ago the Crown Prosecution Service finally got around to launching the first prosecutions.
Prosecutions as such aren't the be-all and end-all, the important thing for a change to a culture of acceptance of the practice where it exists, with the main ability to achieve that lying with the many people within the relevant communities who are wholly opposed to it. But without prosecutions their power to achieve that is greatly weakened.

So far as Egypt goes this issue is one aspect of a wider question, which is how can democratic principles cope with the situation where a majority support a government with fundamentally repressive policies towards a section of society. Nazi Germany was the classic example, but there have been many more. Ruanda was another extreme case. Stormont for generations was another, and so arguably is Israel.

The fact that Egypt is predominantly Muslem is in a sense peripheral to this question, and should not be the sole focus of attention.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 07:22 PM

Jim, you said relatively recently (Keith)suggested that the Morsi Government's word should be taken as sacrosanct over that of the opposition who were (via their "obscure journals") pointing out the real reason that Morsi had closed the smuggling tunnels - any port in a storm - eh what!

The reason I gave was also given by BBC, 2 days ago.
"In addition, the Egyptian military's growing concerns about security at home - especially in the Sinai - mean that some smuggling tunnels into Gaza have been flooded. The Egyptian army wants to stop the flow of weapons and fighters from the Gaza Strip back into Egypt."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23228297

So, I was right and you were wrong again Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 09:42 PM

Come on Keith - what statements? By whom? When? In what words? And of course - did they come from MEMBERS OF THE GOVERNMENT?

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 02:58 AM

Come on Richard, the meaning is clear.

ruling Muslim Brotherhood
That means the government.

statements from the ruling Muslim Brotherhood defending the practice
That means that they defend the practice of FGM.

That was EXACTLY the information that YOU requested.
It is not my fault that you do not like the answer as supplied by BBC.

You can not dispute it, so you label it instead.
Falsely labelling unpalatable facts as "Islamophobic" does not change the facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 03:57 AM

Maybe not Jim, but I was responding directly to Richard's query about FGM in Egypt.
Direct your bile at him."
It took you to continue to make it an issue, just as you made your hatred of Muslims an issue when the subject was the murder of a soldier - which you turned into a racist/bigoted soapbox.
Anybody is entitled to bring any issue they wish into a thread, no matter how peripheral - you manipulate threads into personal hate soapboxes (when you are not squealing "thread-drift") You are noted on this forum for doing so.
"The reason I gave was also given by BBC, 2 days ago."
No it was not - the Guardian statement refers to the situation pertaining AT THE PRESENT TIME in Egypt and the risk of Palestinian arms getting into the hands of the current combatants - which has nothing to do with the flooding of the tunnels in the past.
Your unequivocal support for the Morsi government and your dismissal of the opposition's reasons was for then - not now - read your own links.
Right my arseum (unless you are referring to your goose-stepping political stance of course!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 04:14 AM

So Jim, it was OK for Richard to request information about FGM in Egypt, but not for me to offer it, because the facts do not fit your prejudice!

Do you not see how stupid that makes you look?

The tunnels have not been RE-flooded.
The BBC was stating why they WERE flooded, and that contradicts what you produced from your obscure magazine, and confirms what I said.
Not surprising because that is the reason the Morsi government itself gave for its own actions.

Once again you have to deny an obvious truth because it does not fit your prejudice.

Once again you show yourself to be a prejudiced, dogma driven dork.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 05:05 AM

Keith - that is about as clever as saying "the ruling conservative party" - which could mean some blue-rinsed lunatic from Cheshire, or could mean Scamermoron himself.

WHO? WHAT WORDS? WHEN?

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 05:17 AM

If the BBC on its global news site spoke of statements from "the ruling Conservative Party" no-one would take that to mean obscure local associations.
The meaning is clear.
You just do not like it.

The article did not go into detail, but it told us all we need to know.
The government supports FGM.
That FACT is confirmed by Bobad's link and quote.

Sorry again that the facts do not fit your prejudice.
Maybe you should open your mind a little.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 05:22 AM

You can't can you - because the BBC report (go back and read it again - the actual writing skills are appalling) appears to say that the BBC says that Dr Adly says that "there have been statements from the ruling Muslim Brotherhood defending the practice".

I can't find any. Now I would happily visit extreme ills upon any person imposing FGM on any woman - but that report does not demonstrate that the Morsi regime was supporting FGM.

On the contrary although some members of the governing assembly are reported to have tried to repeal the legal prohibition of FGM in Egypt, their attempts failed.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 05:58 AM

A BBC journalist, Aleem Maqbool, with all his contacts and the resources that are available to someone in his position, tells us that the government has made supporting statements.

But, because Richard can not find them by Googling, we are expected to reject the local expert!

You are in denial Richard, no pun intended.

In any case you have the confirmation of the Guardian piece provided by Bobad.
You lose.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 06:23 AM

In case anyone was thick enough to believe that the Muslim Brotherhood was the only Muslim political force in Egypt:

the al-Nour Salafists siding with the Egyptian army and the USA

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 08:28 AM

The Army have been the de facto rulers and power brokers in Egypt since 1952. Whoever has their support rules Egypt.

Since Morsi was elected President, the Muslim Brotherhood have been attempting to force through their own party's agenda and whilst concentrating on that the country has basically been left to go to hell in high gear - that is what the current "opposition movement" and the Egyptian people are complaining about.

Events reached the point where the Army drew a line and issued their ultimatum. When that ultimatum was ignored they acted in the only way they saw fit in order to prevent a downward spiral into chaos and civil war, they have imposed an interim Government focused on two facets of governance - the introduction of stability with the promise of elections early next year, by which time political parties hoping to take part will have devised their proposals for governing Egypt whilst avoiding the mistakes made by Morsi & Co.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 12:45 PM

While it is clear that there is support for decriminalising GM within the Muslim Brotherhood, it also appears that so far it has not been official policy. Moreover it is wrong to present this as the decisive dividing line between the Muslim Brotherhood and other parties, or between Muslims and others.

Female Genital Mutilation has for a very long time been the expected and required practice in Egypt - according to some reports as high as 97%. This predates the coming of Islam, and is prevalent among Christian Egyptians as well. And it does not appear to be the practice or religious or social expectations in that most exclusively Muslim nation, Saudi Arabia.

None of that means it isn't a barbaric practice, even more so than male infant circumcision, but it means that the issue shouldn't dominate discussions as to whether the overthrow of the Morsi government was on balance a good or bad thing. If that has anything much to do with us.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 01:15 PM

Agreed.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 02:38 AM

I agree with everything in McG's last post.
FGM is a serious issue, but not in the current crisis.
It was a throwaway remark by an anon. Guest, and I am sure Richard regrets taking it up.

Jim likely regrets dredging up the Gaza tunnels even more!
Chumps.

Today is an ominous day for Egypt.
Rival demonstrations in the Square.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 03:16 AM

For once I do not much disagree with Teribus. As usual I largely agree with McGrath of Harlow.

Keith, you cannot ride two horses in opposite directions at the same time.

Opposition to FGM would be a good reason to oppose the Morsi regime, but we have only one remark by one reporter whose source is a known opponent (hooray) of FGM to link the Morsi regime (and that by a sidewind in that the report refers to the Muslim Brotherhood, not the regime itself) to FGM.

Remember I started this thread to try to find out what was driving the people's opposition to the Morsi regime - and the answer appears still to be more than somewhat unspecific, although there are credible-ish suggestions that it's about the economy stupid - which is ironic in that in the present global financial crisis a failing ecnomy might not be wholly Morsi's fault.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 03:29 AM

Bobad's Guardian piece linked Morsi himself to FGM support.

Apart from the economy the rebels are objecting to the Islamisation for which there was little mandate, especially the new constitution.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: selby
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 03:33 AM

Quote This started thread to try to find out what was driving the people's opposition to the Morsi regime.

There have been some posts on this thread to try to say what is happening but the thread became a battle ground for FGM it was never the original issue.

At this present moment in time the Egyptian people are looking at a stark future, no matter what party they back. Tourism is a BIG employer those who work within the industry and those who work on the peripherals are all going to suffer. Stability for the country needs to return by October to get tourists back, although Sharm remains calm the Muslim Brotherhood was keen to shut some of the operation down particularly the casinos.
No matter who leads nothing is going to put right what has happened and only strong fair leadership will prevail
Keith

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 07:24 AM

Keith - Bobad's quote gave SOME indication of who said what - even if not when. Yours didn't.

Selby - there is no disagreement about FGM. We all agree it is disgusting and oppressive. We all agree that if Morsi gives any comfort to it he is disgusting. What there is little evidence of is that the Morsi regime supports it.

I have yet to see any evidence that the street protests were about Islamisation. I would like to see it if it exists. I would however hope that posters might correctly distinguish between Islamic and Islamist.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 08:04 AM

There do seem to be a lot of indications that a major ground for popular opposition to Morsi centred round the Islamisation agenda being prioritised by him. For example, in many of the banners waved in those demos - though admittedly I can only read the ones in English.

Again, in that clip from freearabs.com of that incredibly articulate 12 year old bodad linked to, he describes the Morsi government as a "fascist theocracy".

Of course none of that means that the people against Morsi were opposed to Islam, as evidenced by the involvement of some specifically Muslim religious groups which oppose the Muslim Brotherhood.

And it is also clear that as well as massive popular opposition to the deposed regime their is also massive support for it, quite possibly more massive. The dilemma of how a society can cope with the presence of an oppressive majority is one that is not easily solved.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 08:12 AM

The new rulers of Egypt are punishing the Palestinians for their support of Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood:

"Egypt is allowed to strangle the entire Gaza Strip and deny its people food and fuel, especially on the eve of the holy fasting month of Ramadan, but one hardly hears about these anti-Palestinian measures: they are being carried out by an Arab country, not by Israel."

Egypt Punishes the Palestinians

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: selby
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 09:37 AM

Faith in the future is a big issue for Egyptians, a lot of them believe that the world is cyclitic and that old empires and nations are progressing to the top of the cycle again. The "Arab Spring" for them was the opportunity/beginning for Egypt to start that rise themselves they have seen both India and China rising. The optimism was dashed by the new governments failure to move forward (it is arguable if any new government could/would have). Religion became an issue due to the elected governments mandate to Islamise Egypt,bearing in mind that coupled with this other parties refused to work with the muslim brotherhood. When the new elections are held and a new government is elected as it stands at the moment there will still be parties refusing to work with each other unless someone can get them ALL sat down together this disaster will rumble on and I feel Egypt will be infiltrated by the people even the egyptians do not want
Keith

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 11:44 AM

Richard.
We all agree that if Morsi gives any comfort to it he is disgusting. What there is little evidence of is that the Morsi regime supports it.
Give it up Richard.
You were wrong.
"there have been statements from the ruling Muslim Brotherhood defending the practice."
"Attempts were made in the short-lived Islamist-dominated parliament to decriminalise"
Clear enough?
"When Morsi was once asked about his views on the subject, instead of clearly and unambiguously condemning the practice, he said that it was a decision that should be left to the family concerned."
Not "little evidence" Richard.
Conclusive proof.
You were wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 02:12 PM

FGM is a serious issue, but not in the current crisis.

I'am sure Keith agrees with what he wrote there.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 02:59 PM

I meant it is not an issue in this political crisis, however appalling it is in human terms.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 11:04 AM

Precisely. Let's talk about what this political crisis can teach us.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: bobad
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 11:44 AM

This analyst suggests that what we are seeing in Egypt may be signalling a backlash against the Islamist power grabs of the Arab Spring.

Nahlah Ayed: Can Egypt put the Islamist genie back in the bottle?

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 03:01 PM

Richard.
Remember I started this thread to try to find out what was driving the people's opposition to the Morsi regime - and the answer appears still to be more than somewhat unspecific,

The piece Bobad just linked to is quite specific.
Most Egyptians do not want Islamism, as I said in the second post on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 03:03 PM

Sorry.

Richard said,
"Remember I started this thread to try to find out what was driving the people's opposition to the Morsi regime - and the answer appears still to be more than somewhat unspecific,"

The piece Bobad just linked to is quite specific.
Most Egyptians do not want Islamism, as I said in the second post on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 03:25 PM

"Most Egyptians don't want Islamism."

That's not totally clear. What is clear is that a great number of Egyptians, especially in cities, don' want Islamism. It's also clear that when it came to an election, the party associated with Islamism won.

It'd be nice if the wrong people didn't win elections, but only too often that happens. Sometimes very much the wrong people, who set about making quite sure there's no chance of their getting vot out in future elections. (I'm not saying that's necessarily what happened this time, but it can and does happen.)

So the problem arises, how should people cope with that?

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 04:11 PM

The election was close and the secular vote was split.
Morsi did not have a mandate for the Islamisation of the country.
People felt that their democracy was being subverted.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 12:02 PM

The notion of 'mandate' is very suspect. Governments do what they can get away woth. They fail to do things they promised to do, they do things they promised not to do, they stick policies in the small print, and then say people voted fr those policies and it. Gives them 'a mandate'.

In the case of Egypt it's not at all clear what majority opinion is.   Clealy there are enormous numbers of peoe who opposed Morsi, and enormous numbers who oppose the generals. It appears that these include many who backed Morsi but also many who see the coup as an attack on democracy, even if they didn't like Morsi.

What seems evident to me is that without some kind of provision for popular 'recall' in between elections when a government is grossly out of tune with the mass of ordinary people, a system of representative democracy is very much at risk. Of course while this might help in cases where a repressive government as actually unpopular - it does nothing to meet the situation where there is majority support for tyranny.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 03:33 PM

As usual Keith you rely on rumour and hearsay. Whether this is due to ignorance or malice I do not know, although I suspect the latter.

McGrath's post of 0804 mudcat time on the 12th July is cogent (as usual) but thereafter the waters are muddied by a failure clearly to distinguish between Islam and Islamism. I am opposed to theocracies, but if people want to believe in imaginary friends that is a different matter so long as they do not thereby oppress others who are not equally fantasists.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 04:01 PM

There isn't always a clear distinction between Islam and certain kinds of Islamism. Islam, like Christianity (and unlike Judaism) are proselytising religions. In principle they are committed to bring outsiders into the fold, and ideally would wish a world in which everyone was inside.

To some extent most Christian traditions tend to draw a line between secular authority and religion, in line with the injunction "render unto Caesar those things which are Caesars". And there aren't too many firm rules about the trivia of life laid down n the New Testament. The Islamic traditions are a lot more prescriptive about The Law, in a direct echo of its Abrahamic parent, Judaism, but unlike Judaism, having in principle a universal application rather than a limited ethnic one.

In practice most Muslims, like most Christians have accomdated, at least in many countries, to a world in which they liive alongside other religious traditions. But there is a tension, and those we call Islamists are not a separate tradition, but stand at one end of a spectrum.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 05:19 PM

Richard, just identify any mere rumour or hearsay in a post of mine, and I will withdraw it at once.
In your own time Richard.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 03:20 AM

No "malice" Richard.
I do not believe I have posted out of "ignorance" either.
Please give an example.

The Guardian, Patrick Kingsley. 1st July.
"The scene at the headquarters was a microcosm of the extreme polarisation affecting Egyptian society, which is divided between those who may be religious, but do not seek an Islamic state – and Islamists like the Brotherhood, which seeks to use the concepts of Islamic law to govern Egypt."

So, the opposition do not want Islamism, or is Kingsley also an ignorant, malicious, purveyor of "rumour and hearsay" ?

They may or may not be an absolute majority, otherwise my reply to your OP was accurate.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 03:48 AM

Richard Bridge, please be aware that the "imaginary friend" shit, no matter how you cloak it, is offensive; and might cause some people consider you to be a bigot.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 05:12 AM

I oppose all theocracies Joe.

Keith, "Islamist" where you there cite is sloppy writing. If you want to know more about Kingsley's views try a fuller article here -

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/apr/02/who-are-the-muslim-brotherhood

It clearly sets out that there is a difference between the Islamic Brotherhood on the one hand and the FJP on the other (think IRA and Sinn Fein if you will) and also that there are fundamentalists and gradualists in the Brotherhood.

It seems to suggest to me that there were considerable doubts that Morsi was aiming to make Egypt the new Iran.

You see, that's part of the point - you write as if to you all Muslims are Islamists.

You might also benefit from looking up what "hearsay" was.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 05:30 AM

I never said "a new Iran."

He gave himself sweeping new powers.
He instituted a new very religious constitution.
He tried to impose (according to Kingsley 1st july) a 10pm closedown in Cairo so the people were ready for morning prayer.

No malice.
No ignorance.
No rumour.
No hearsay.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 05:38 AM

Sorry. That was Guardian 5th July.
"The toppling of Mohamed Morsi had a hundred causes, many of them wholly peculiar to Egypt. A choice example: Morsi wanted to close all shops at 10pm, so that Egyptians would be fully rested in time for morning prayers. That didn't go down well in famously nocturnal Cairo where, as the New Yorker put it, "there are still traffic jams at 2am and where internet usage peaks at 12.45am"."

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 05:52 AM

The term "Islamic Brotherhood" is a bit confusing there in a context where Richard is arguing that it is misleading to refer to the Brotherhood as "Islamist". Looking through that piece by Kingsley it appears that he studiously avoids making any conclusions about the extent to which the Brotherhood is "Islamist", but rather presents quotes from a range of sources arguing the point.

The distinction between "Islamic" and "Islamist" is useful, but both terms cover a spectrum of positions, which overlap.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 05:52 AM

The term "Islamic Brotherhood" is a bit confusing there in a context where Richard is arguing that it is misleading to refer to the Brotherhood as "Islamist". Looking through that piece by Kingsley it appears that he studiously avoids making any conclusions about the extent to which the Brotherhood is "Islamist", but rather presents quotes from a range of sources arguing the point.

The distinction between "Islamic" and "Islamist" is useful, but both terms cover a spectrum of positions, which overlap.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 07:57 AM

This report tels how even Ismaliya, where the MB has its roots, has turned from them.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23312478

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 08:31 AM

BBC today.
Ousted Egyptian President Mohammed Morsi is being held over allegations of links with Palestinian militants Hamas and plotting attacks on jails in the 2011 uprising, it has been announced.

Meanwhile, EU adds Hezbollah to list of terrorist organisations.