BS: Egypt?

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 08:31 AM

BBC today.
Ousted Egyptian President Mohammed Morsi is being held over allegations of links with Palestinian militants Hamas and plotting attacks on jails in the 2011 uprising, it has been announced.

Meanwhile, EU adds Hezbollah to list of terrorist organisations.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 07:57 AM

This report tels how even Ismaliya, where the MB has its roots, has turned from them.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23312478

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 05:52 AM

The term "Islamic Brotherhood" is a bit confusing there in a context where Richard is arguing that it is misleading to refer to the Brotherhood as "Islamist". Looking through that piece by Kingsley it appears that he studiously avoids making any conclusions about the extent to which the Brotherhood is "Islamist", but rather presents quotes from a range of sources arguing the point.

The distinction between "Islamic" and "Islamist" is useful, but both terms cover a spectrum of positions, which overlap.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 05:52 AM

The term "Islamic Brotherhood" is a bit confusing there in a context where Richard is arguing that it is misleading to refer to the Brotherhood as "Islamist". Looking through that piece by Kingsley it appears that he studiously avoids making any conclusions about the extent to which the Brotherhood is "Islamist", but rather presents quotes from a range of sources arguing the point.

The distinction between "Islamic" and "Islamist" is useful, but both terms cover a spectrum of positions, which overlap.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 05:38 AM

Sorry. That was Guardian 5th July.
"The toppling of Mohamed Morsi had a hundred causes, many of them wholly peculiar to Egypt. A choice example: Morsi wanted to close all shops at 10pm, so that Egyptians would be fully rested in time for morning prayers. That didn't go down well in famously nocturnal Cairo where, as the New Yorker put it, "there are still traffic jams at 2am and where internet usage peaks at 12.45am"."

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 05:30 AM

I never said "a new Iran."

He gave himself sweeping new powers.
He instituted a new very religious constitution.
He tried to impose (according to Kingsley 1st july) a 10pm closedown in Cairo so the people were ready for morning prayer.

No malice.
No ignorance.
No rumour.
No hearsay.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 05:12 AM

I oppose all theocracies Joe.

Keith, "Islamist" where you there cite is sloppy writing. If you want to know more about Kingsley's views try a fuller article here -

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/apr/02/who-are-the-muslim-brotherhood

It clearly sets out that there is a difference between the Islamic Brotherhood on the one hand and the FJP on the other (think IRA and Sinn Fein if you will) and also that there are fundamentalists and gradualists in the Brotherhood.

It seems to suggest to me that there were considerable doubts that Morsi was aiming to make Egypt the new Iran.

You see, that's part of the point - you write as if to you all Muslims are Islamists.

You might also benefit from looking up what "hearsay" was.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 03:48 AM

Richard Bridge, please be aware that the "imaginary friend" shit, no matter how you cloak it, is offensive; and might cause some people consider you to be a bigot.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 03:20 AM

No "malice" Richard.
I do not believe I have posted out of "ignorance" either.
Please give an example.

The Guardian, Patrick Kingsley. 1st July.
"The scene at the headquarters was a microcosm of the extreme polarisation affecting Egyptian society, which is divided between those who may be religious, but do not seek an Islamic state – and Islamists like the Brotherhood, which seeks to use the concepts of Islamic law to govern Egypt."

So, the opposition do not want Islamism, or is Kingsley also an ignorant, malicious, purveyor of "rumour and hearsay" ?

They may or may not be an absolute majority, otherwise my reply to your OP was accurate.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 05:19 PM

Richard, just identify any mere rumour or hearsay in a post of mine, and I will withdraw it at once.
In your own time Richard.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 04:01 PM

There isn't always a clear distinction between Islam and certain kinds of Islamism. Islam, like Christianity (and unlike Judaism) are proselytising religions. In principle they are committed to bring outsiders into the fold, and ideally would wish a world in which everyone was inside.

To some extent most Christian traditions tend to draw a line between secular authority and religion, in line with the injunction "render unto Caesar those things which are Caesars". And there aren't too many firm rules about the trivia of life laid down n the New Testament. The Islamic traditions are a lot more prescriptive about The Law, in a direct echo of its Abrahamic parent, Judaism, but unlike Judaism, having in principle a universal application rather than a limited ethnic one.

In practice most Muslims, like most Christians have accomdated, at least in many countries, to a world in which they liive alongside other religious traditions. But there is a tension, and those we call Islamists are not a separate tradition, but stand at one end of a spectrum.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 03:33 PM

As usual Keith you rely on rumour and hearsay. Whether this is due to ignorance or malice I do not know, although I suspect the latter.

McGrath's post of 0804 mudcat time on the 12th July is cogent (as usual) but thereafter the waters are muddied by a failure clearly to distinguish between Islam and Islamism. I am opposed to theocracies, but if people want to believe in imaginary friends that is a different matter so long as they do not thereby oppress others who are not equally fantasists.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 12:02 PM

The notion of 'mandate' is very suspect. Governments do what they can get away woth. They fail to do things they promised to do, they do things they promised not to do, they stick policies in the small print, and then say people voted fr those policies and it. Gives them 'a mandate'.

In the case of Egypt it's not at all clear what majority opinion is.   Clealy there are enormous numbers of peoe who opposed Morsi, and enormous numbers who oppose the generals. It appears that these include many who backed Morsi but also many who see the coup as an attack on democracy, even if they didn't like Morsi.

What seems evident to me is that without some kind of provision for popular 'recall' in between elections when a government is grossly out of tune with the mass of ordinary people, a system of representative democracy is very much at risk. Of course while this might help in cases where a repressive government as actually unpopular - it does nothing to meet the situation where there is majority support for tyranny.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 04:11 PM

The election was close and the secular vote was split.
Morsi did not have a mandate for the Islamisation of the country.
People felt that their democracy was being subverted.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 03:25 PM

"Most Egyptians don't want Islamism."

That's not totally clear. What is clear is that a great number of Egyptians, especially in cities, don' want Islamism. It's also clear that when it came to an election, the party associated with Islamism won.

It'd be nice if the wrong people didn't win elections, but only too often that happens. Sometimes very much the wrong people, who set about making quite sure there's no chance of their getting vot out in future elections. (I'm not saying that's necessarily what happened this time, but it can and does happen.)

So the problem arises, how should people cope with that?

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 03:03 PM

Sorry.

Richard said,
"Remember I started this thread to try to find out what was driving the people's opposition to the Morsi regime - and the answer appears still to be more than somewhat unspecific,"

The piece Bobad just linked to is quite specific.
Most Egyptians do not want Islamism, as I said in the second post on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 03:01 PM

Richard.
Remember I started this thread to try to find out what was driving the people's opposition to the Morsi regime - and the answer appears still to be more than somewhat unspecific,

The piece Bobad just linked to is quite specific.
Most Egyptians do not want Islamism, as I said in the second post on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: bobad
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 11:44 AM

This analyst suggests that what we are seeing in Egypt may be signalling a backlash against the Islamist power grabs of the Arab Spring.

Nahlah Ayed: Can Egypt put the Islamist genie back in the bottle?

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 11:04 AM

Precisely. Let's talk about what this political crisis can teach us.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 02:59 PM

I meant it is not an issue in this political crisis, however appalling it is in human terms.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 02:12 PM

FGM is a serious issue, but not in the current crisis.

I'am sure Keith agrees with what he wrote there.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 11:44 AM

Richard.
We all agree that if Morsi gives any comfort to it he is disgusting. What there is little evidence of is that the Morsi regime supports it.
Give it up Richard.
You were wrong.
"there have been statements from the ruling Muslim Brotherhood defending the practice."
"Attempts were made in the short-lived Islamist-dominated parliament to decriminalise"
Clear enough?
"When Morsi was once asked about his views on the subject, instead of clearly and unambiguously condemning the practice, he said that it was a decision that should be left to the family concerned."
Not "little evidence" Richard.
Conclusive proof.
You were wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: selby
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 09:37 AM

Faith in the future is a big issue for Egyptians, a lot of them believe that the world is cyclitic and that old empires and nations are progressing to the top of the cycle again. The "Arab Spring" for them was the opportunity/beginning for Egypt to start that rise themselves they have seen both India and China rising. The optimism was dashed by the new governments failure to move forward (it is arguable if any new government could/would have). Religion became an issue due to the elected governments mandate to Islamise Egypt,bearing in mind that coupled with this other parties refused to work with the muslim brotherhood. When the new elections are held and a new government is elected as it stands at the moment there will still be parties refusing to work with each other unless someone can get them ALL sat down together this disaster will rumble on and I feel Egypt will be infiltrated by the people even the egyptians do not want
Keith

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 08:12 AM

The new rulers of Egypt are punishing the Palestinians for their support of Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood:

"Egypt is allowed to strangle the entire Gaza Strip and deny its people food and fuel, especially on the eve of the holy fasting month of Ramadan, but one hardly hears about these anti-Palestinian measures: they are being carried out by an Arab country, not by Israel."

Egypt Punishes the Palestinians

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 08:04 AM

There do seem to be a lot of indications that a major ground for popular opposition to Morsi centred round the Islamisation agenda being prioritised by him. For example, in many of the banners waved in those demos - though admittedly I can only read the ones in English.

Again, in that clip from freearabs.com of that incredibly articulate 12 year old bodad linked to, he describes the Morsi government as a "fascist theocracy".

Of course none of that means that the people against Morsi were opposed to Islam, as evidenced by the involvement of some specifically Muslim religious groups which oppose the Muslim Brotherhood.

And it is also clear that as well as massive popular opposition to the deposed regime their is also massive support for it, quite possibly more massive. The dilemma of how a society can cope with the presence of an oppressive majority is one that is not easily solved.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 07:24 AM

Keith - Bobad's quote gave SOME indication of who said what - even if not when. Yours didn't.

Selby - there is no disagreement about FGM. We all agree it is disgusting and oppressive. We all agree that if Morsi gives any comfort to it he is disgusting. What there is little evidence of is that the Morsi regime supports it.

I have yet to see any evidence that the street protests were about Islamisation. I would like to see it if it exists. I would however hope that posters might correctly distinguish between Islamic and Islamist.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: selby
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 03:33 AM

Quote This started thread to try to find out what was driving the people's opposition to the Morsi regime.

There have been some posts on this thread to try to say what is happening but the thread became a battle ground for FGM it was never the original issue.

At this present moment in time the Egyptian people are looking at a stark future, no matter what party they back. Tourism is a BIG employer those who work within the industry and those who work on the peripherals are all going to suffer. Stability for the country needs to return by October to get tourists back, although Sharm remains calm the Muslim Brotherhood was keen to shut some of the operation down particularly the casinos.
No matter who leads nothing is going to put right what has happened and only strong fair leadership will prevail
Keith

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 03:29 AM

Bobad's Guardian piece linked Morsi himself to FGM support.

Apart from the economy the rebels are objecting to the Islamisation for which there was little mandate, especially the new constitution.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 03:16 AM

For once I do not much disagree with Teribus. As usual I largely agree with McGrath of Harlow.

Keith, you cannot ride two horses in opposite directions at the same time.

Opposition to FGM would be a good reason to oppose the Morsi regime, but we have only one remark by one reporter whose source is a known opponent (hooray) of FGM to link the Morsi regime (and that by a sidewind in that the report refers to the Muslim Brotherhood, not the regime itself) to FGM.

Remember I started this thread to try to find out what was driving the people's opposition to the Morsi regime - and the answer appears still to be more than somewhat unspecific, although there are credible-ish suggestions that it's about the economy stupid - which is ironic in that in the present global financial crisis a failing ecnomy might not be wholly Morsi's fault.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 02:38 AM

I agree with everything in McG's last post.
FGM is a serious issue, but not in the current crisis.
It was a throwaway remark by an anon. Guest, and I am sure Richard regrets taking it up.

Jim likely regrets dredging up the Gaza tunnels even more!
Chumps.

Today is an ominous day for Egypt.
Rival demonstrations in the Square.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 01:15 PM

Agreed.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 12:45 PM

While it is clear that there is support for decriminalising GM within the Muslim Brotherhood, it also appears that so far it has not been official policy. Moreover it is wrong to present this as the decisive dividing line between the Muslim Brotherhood and other parties, or between Muslims and others.

Female Genital Mutilation has for a very long time been the expected and required practice in Egypt - according to some reports as high as 97%. This predates the coming of Islam, and is prevalent among Christian Egyptians as well. And it does not appear to be the practice or religious or social expectations in that most exclusively Muslim nation, Saudi Arabia.

None of that means it isn't a barbaric practice, even more so than male infant circumcision, but it means that the issue shouldn't dominate discussions as to whether the overthrow of the Morsi government was on balance a good or bad thing. If that has anything much to do with us.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 08:28 AM

The Army have been the de facto rulers and power brokers in Egypt since 1952. Whoever has their support rules Egypt.

Since Morsi was elected President, the Muslim Brotherhood have been attempting to force through their own party's agenda and whilst concentrating on that the country has basically been left to go to hell in high gear - that is what the current "opposition movement" and the Egyptian people are complaining about.

Events reached the point where the Army drew a line and issued their ultimatum. When that ultimatum was ignored they acted in the only way they saw fit in order to prevent a downward spiral into chaos and civil war, they have imposed an interim Government focused on two facets of governance - the introduction of stability with the promise of elections early next year, by which time political parties hoping to take part will have devised their proposals for governing Egypt whilst avoiding the mistakes made by Morsi & Co.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 06:23 AM

In case anyone was thick enough to believe that the Muslim Brotherhood was the only Muslim political force in Egypt:

the al-Nour Salafists siding with the Egyptian army and the USA

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 05:58 AM

A BBC journalist, Aleem Maqbool, with all his contacts and the resources that are available to someone in his position, tells us that the government has made supporting statements.

But, because Richard can not find them by Googling, we are expected to reject the local expert!

You are in denial Richard, no pun intended.

In any case you have the confirmation of the Guardian piece provided by Bobad.
You lose.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 05:22 AM

You can't can you - because the BBC report (go back and read it again - the actual writing skills are appalling) appears to say that the BBC says that Dr Adly says that "there have been statements from the ruling Muslim Brotherhood defending the practice".

I can't find any. Now I would happily visit extreme ills upon any person imposing FGM on any woman - but that report does not demonstrate that the Morsi regime was supporting FGM.

On the contrary although some members of the governing assembly are reported to have tried to repeal the legal prohibition of FGM in Egypt, their attempts failed.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 05:17 AM

If the BBC on its global news site spoke of statements from "the ruling Conservative Party" no-one would take that to mean obscure local associations.
The meaning is clear.
You just do not like it.

The article did not go into detail, but it told us all we need to know.
The government supports FGM.
That FACT is confirmed by Bobad's link and quote.

Sorry again that the facts do not fit your prejudice.
Maybe you should open your mind a little.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 05:05 AM

Keith - that is about as clever as saying "the ruling conservative party" - which could mean some blue-rinsed lunatic from Cheshire, or could mean Scamermoron himself.

WHO? WHAT WORDS? WHEN?

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 04:14 AM

So Jim, it was OK for Richard to request information about FGM in Egypt, but not for me to offer it, because the facts do not fit your prejudice!

Do you not see how stupid that makes you look?

The tunnels have not been RE-flooded.
The BBC was stating why they WERE flooded, and that contradicts what you produced from your obscure magazine, and confirms what I said.
Not surprising because that is the reason the Morsi government itself gave for its own actions.

Once again you have to deny an obvious truth because it does not fit your prejudice.

Once again you show yourself to be a prejudiced, dogma driven dork.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 03:57 AM

Maybe not Jim, but I was responding directly to Richard's query about FGM in Egypt.
Direct your bile at him."
It took you to continue to make it an issue, just as you made your hatred of Muslims an issue when the subject was the murder of a soldier - which you turned into a racist/bigoted soapbox.
Anybody is entitled to bring any issue they wish into a thread, no matter how peripheral - you manipulate threads into personal hate soapboxes (when you are not squealing "thread-drift") You are noted on this forum for doing so.
"The reason I gave was also given by BBC, 2 days ago."
No it was not - the Guardian statement refers to the situation pertaining AT THE PRESENT TIME in Egypt and the risk of Palestinian arms getting into the hands of the current combatants - which has nothing to do with the flooding of the tunnels in the past.
Your unequivocal support for the Morsi government and your dismissal of the opposition's reasons was for then - not now - read your own links.
Right my arseum (unless you are referring to your goose-stepping political stance of course!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 02:58 AM

Come on Richard, the meaning is clear.

ruling Muslim Brotherhood
That means the government.

statements from the ruling Muslim Brotherhood defending the practice
That means that they defend the practice of FGM.

That was EXACTLY the information that YOU requested.
It is not my fault that you do not like the answer as supplied by BBC.

You can not dispute it, so you label it instead.
Falsely labelling unpalatable facts as "Islamophobic" does not change the facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 09:42 PM

Come on Keith - what statements? By whom? When? In what words? And of course - did they come from MEMBERS OF THE GOVERNMENT?

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 07:22 PM

Jim, you said relatively recently (Keith)suggested that the Morsi Government's word should be taken as sacrosanct over that of the opposition who were (via their "obscure journals") pointing out the real reason that Morsi had closed the smuggling tunnels - any port in a storm - eh what!

The reason I gave was also given by BBC, 2 days ago.
"In addition, the Egyptian military's growing concerns about security at home - especially in the Sinai - mean that some smuggling tunnels into Gaza have been flooded. The Egyptian army wants to stop the flow of weapons and fighters from the Gaza Strip back into Egypt."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23228297

So, I was right and you were wrong again Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 07:20 PM

When it comes to Female Genital Mutilation the focus, for people in the UK, ought to be on the failure of society to respond to it in an effective way. In the last two years, according to the NSPCC, approximately 1,700 victime have been treated for it. Three days ago the Crown Prosecution Service finally got around to launching the first prosecutions.
Prosecutions as such aren't the be-all and end-all, the important thing for a change to a culture of acceptance of the practice where it exists, with the main ability to achieve that lying with the many people within the relevant communities who are wholly opposed to it. But without prosecutions their power to achieve that is greatly weakened.

So far as Egypt goes this issue is one aspect of a wider question, which is how can democratic principles cope with the situation where a majority support a government with fundamentally repressive policies towards a section of society. Nazi Germany was the classic example, but there have been many more. Ruanda was another extreme case. Stormont for generations was another, and so arguably is Israel.

The fact that Egypt is predominantly Muslem is in a sense peripheral to this question, and should not be the sole focus of attention.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 06:23 PM

NOTHING he says shows the Morsi government accommodating FGM.
Not true Richard.
The BBC extract had this statement,"On the contrary, there have been statements from the ruling Muslim Brotherhood defending the practice."

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 06:12 PM

Nobody turns a blind eye
Then why no single conviction here, and why are little girls brought here to be mutilated?

Usual Islamophobic crap from Keith.
It is from BBC, not me.
They are known for their objectivity, not for Islamophobic crap.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 05:58 PM

Usual Islamophobic crap from Keith.

NOTHING he says shows the Morsi government accommodating FGM.

OTOH, I have been involved in collecting evidence of it in the UK and reporting it to the police.

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 05:40 PM

FGM has nothing whatever to do with the Egyptian situation.
Maybe not Jim, but I was responding directly to Richard's query about FGM in Egypt.
Direct your bile at him.

I only quoted the BBC, who are neither the "scabloid press" nor the "BNP."

Why must you always make these things personal?

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 03:16 PM

"We turn a blind eye."
Nobody turns a blind eye - the scabloid press is always bringing it up, as are the BNP and people like yourself.
You have accused people who have not responded tyo your call to arms as "complacent" - they aren't; it has no place in this discussion other than as yet another opportunity by people like you to present Muslims as sub-human (except those who have managed to resist their "cultural implants - they are merely untrustworthy near children!)
Other than obeying national laws, Muslims are the only ones fitted to deal with religious excesses and influences, interference leads to entrenchment and resentment. I suggest you direct tour attention nearer home when it comes to the treatment of women.
Usually you are the first to squeal "thread drift" when you get out of your depth, until, like here, it suits your single-handed crusade; then you make the Marie Celeste look like the Cutty Sark.
FGM has nothing whatever to do with the Egyptian situation.
Couldn't help but notice you managed to sidestep your previous support for the Morsi mob - what do you reckon - send him some riot control gear as you suggested with Assad?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Egypt?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 02:12 PM

This is enlightening about what the US has been up to in Egypt recently.

covert American funding of Morsi's opponents

Blatantly illegal under both US and Egyptian law, not that that would ever be a consideration for a recent US president.