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BS: The world's worst metaphor?
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Subject: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 04 Jul 13 - 04:42 PM The cat is dead AND alive! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Jul 13 - 05:23 PM Marvelous! She's a smart one, and great fun to listen to. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 04 Jul 13 - 05:35 PM And the best part is that as an 8 minute video it is knowledge that you have which is unattainable to several of our more output orientated members. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: Rapparee Date: 04 Jul 13 - 05:42 PM Quite well done! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: gnu Date: 04 Jul 13 - 08:18 PM I am in love! Totally smitten in my heart and in my mind! Now... that's a babe! Ahhhh... sorry. Ummm. Indeed, the lass speaks volumes and her treatise is laudible and... ohhhh... yeah... all that and she just melts my mind and heart. That's the lass I wanted to meet 30 years ago. Men go crazy for a smart dreesed mind. Apologies to ZZ Top. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: Little Hawk Date: 05 Jul 13 - 12:09 AM I agree 100%. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 05 Jul 13 - 11:21 AM :=) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: GUEST,Musket sans Heisenberg Date: 05 Jul 13 - 04:42 PM Lots of burlesque activity from "output orientated" members. Usually helps prevent absurd notions from growing legs. Waveforms usually collapse when metaphysical input rears its head. The video? fascinating to see her explore the human necessity of the metaphor. Einstein referred to this in his letters to Nils Bohr on the subject. Make interesting reading. If anyone likes her approach, you may be interested in the book, How to teach quantum physics to your dog. I forget who wrote it without looking, but bought it on Kindle last year. My youngest lad revommendef6it. He is influenced by the easy going style of explaining complicated notions. His PhD thesis is around quantum tunnelling and he does try to keep his old man up to date, but as it isn't beer or pickled eggs, he has problems engaging me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: GUEST Date: 05 Jul 13 - 07:03 PM So let me get this straight, Ian does not exist here, only Musket. Musket is not Ian, So exactly who is teaching Quantum Physics to whose dog? Does the dog have a quantum existence whereby when Ian observes it, it is real but when Musket teaches it Physics, it is imaginary? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: Little Hawk Date: 06 Jul 13 - 12:51 AM You never know. The dog may be of the opinion that Ian is imaginary, but we'd have to interview the dog to find out. I've been watching this woman's other videos. She is delightful. Very witty. I bet she's a wonderful teacher. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: GUEST,Musket sans Heisenberg Date: 06 Jul 13 - 03:43 AM The dog can be either side of the Atlantic. This is known as wave duality. Note the lack of cause and effect though, that is the bedrock and you reach the point of taking it on board without really accepting it. This can be explained by the fact that this particular dog shits out more than he eats. But if either I don't go up the garden with a poop scoop or I don't ask the dog walker how he got on during the day, how can I know that? He defies physics and doesn't defy physics. Instantaneously. Perhaps Musket has a clockwise spin and Ian anticlockwise? Perhaps mixing metaphysical with physical ain't such a good idea after all. ..... By the way. The cat isn't a bad metaphor, it was down right sarcasm at the time. Burlesque is just politeness. .... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 06 Jul 13 - 03:47 AM In my untiring search for a better "metaphor" linking quantum mechanics to the life status of animals, I was inspired by the current season in Europe:
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: GUEST,Musket sans utube Date: 06 Jul 13 - 03:52 AM You may not be quite so photogenic as the young lady either. Some of the old codgers above seem rather taken by her. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: Georgiansilver Date: 06 Jul 13 - 04:43 AM A nice play on words in the video! The cat is "Dead AND alive" she says!!! But actually the cat is 'Dead OR alive' we know it cannot be both at the same time!........ just saying!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 06 Jul 13 - 04:54 AM Musket, I'm not sure whether I would like to be "taken" by the above gentlemen. I think I'd prefer being a PhD. Also, if the lady happened to appear in real life in the life of any of us, I wonder how long our love would last. What wonderful things are videos at home: you can switch them on and off whenever you like! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: gnu Date: 06 Jul 13 - 05:35 AM You guys crack me up. What a great thread! I want a tshirt with "WANTED... DEAD and ALIVE. Musket... if the walker didn't observe perhaps the dog wouldn't shit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: Musket Date: 06 Jul 13 - 08:44 AM Georgiansilver. Dead AND alive. Just saying... You know, Gnu.. The dog does prefer humans to observe. If he does it in the rough, on the dead dredgings of the dyke we walk alongside, he gets a gravy bone. He wouldn't get one if I didn't observe him. Hence he seeks to influence the outcome and the wave collapses. Grishka, you can turn the video on or off, but you can't alter its spin..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: Little Hawk Date: 06 Jul 13 - 09:48 AM Hmm. We had a dog who was embarrassed to be seen when he'd shit. He'd try to conceal himself in the bushes. I realize that's unusual, but dogs do have their quirks. Also had a guineau pig who peed vastly more water than he ever drank! I eventually realized he was creating water as a byproduct of all the (dry) food he was eating...through combustion. You take hydrocarbons...the food...oxidize it (burn it) through the digestive process...and the byproducts of same are shit (carbon and various other byproducts from the food), energy (to power the pig), and H2O! Eureka! Now...dead AND alive... Hell, that's easy! I've seen any number of people who were dead AND alive at the same time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: GUEST,Musket being a smartarse Date: 06 Jul 13 - 01:40 PM If you saw people who were dead and alive, you didn't. The wave collapses as observation is interference. Proving becomes a self fulfilling prophesy. Mind you, medieval quill pushers knew that to their advantage well before Heisenberg or Bose. Good job Copenhagen is also famous for beer and lovely ladies.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 06 Jul 13 - 03:04 PM If you saw people who were dead and alive, you didn't.Musket, you strive to prevent absurd notions from growing legs. Let me remind you, as amply stated in many texts for decades, that if being alive were an elementary quantum property, there would be beings that are dead at a given time, beings that are alive at that time, and beings of indeterminable life status, all three perfectly observable per se, but the latter neither dead nor alive, at any time! Trying to apply a device for measuring the life status of "such" a being amounts to it not being of that type at all, but either dead or alive. "Collapsing the wave function" is just a sloven way of speaking for the "wave function" never having existed independently of the measuring device. I read about that the double slit experiment. If I understood correctly, the theory can describes it and predict the results exactly, it just has no "explanation" conforming to the everyday intuition of humans including physicists. Correct me if your son tells you I'm wrong. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: GUEST,Musket sans Heisenberg Date: 06 Jul 13 - 03:26 PM I don't strive to prevent absurd notions, I am a season ticket holder at Sheffield Wednesday so can exhibit group delusion at will. I can describe how we will win, I can predict the result AND I can explain why we lost anyway Quantum mechanics? Bring it on! Mind you, collapsing wave functions is for me a convenient way of describing the indescribable. Saying what happens at the quantum level is as counterintuitive as religion yet many accept it. The difference being the ability to reform theories based on better tighter information. My son would require beer I'm afraid. .... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: GUEST,CS Date: 06 Jul 13 - 03:59 PM Sillysparrow should be on telly, she was fun! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: michaelr Date: 06 Jul 13 - 05:21 PM I liked the episode where the smart Astrid introduces us to her various personae. I guess she forgot to mention the exhibitionist... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 06 Jul 13 - 06:02 PM Georgian Silver, you are absolutely right. In reality the Cat is Dead or Alive. The "Dead and Alive" premise is exactly the premise that the "thought experiment" of the cat and the poison is mocking Schrodinger saying that the Cat is BOTH dean and alive until observed, when that is clearly impossible and ansurd is the "burlesque" of the idea. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: gnu Date: 06 Jul 13 - 10:12 PM "I don't strive to prevent absurd notions, I am a season ticket holder at Sheffield Wednesday so can exhibit group delusion at will. I can describe how we will win, I can predict the result AND I can explain why we lost anyway" HAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAAAHHAHAHAHHAHAAAHEHEHHEHEHEHHEEEEEEE... and so forth! I need a tissue! AHHHAHAHAHAAAAAA................ |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Jul 13 - 12:38 AM Heh! Well, I was implying that those various people I saw were... physically alive, but... mentally, emotionally and/or spiritually dead. Maybe that is what accounts for the popularity of zombie films lately. *** Sillysparrow is doing a wonderful job at using her English, which is a second language for her. She's a German. I gather she teaches English in school. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: GUEST,Musket sans Heisenberg Date: 07 Jul 13 - 03:03 AM Indeterminate state cannot be either / or. Both states are feasible hence the word "and." This point is described in Hawkins brief history of time. It clarifies why the cat analogy won over the original one that Schroedinger and Einstein cooked up together. Einstein back pedalled after reading a paper from Bose who was a young student in India who sent him a paper. Mind you, pedantic discussion over indeterminate state in itself requires acceptance of Heisenberg and his uncertainty principle. All hypothesis and nobody gets killed for believing it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: gnu Date: 07 Jul 13 - 05:25 AM Might as well go for a soda then? Might as well go for a soda Nobody hurts and nobody cries Might as well go for a soda Nobody drowns and nobody dies Kim Mitchell |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: Musket Date: 07 Jul 13 - 05:31 AM If the soda goes flat, is it still soda? If you put it in a box......... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 07 Jul 13 - 05:40 AM Musket, I appreciate some smalltalk about "memes" or "metaphors" of science, and of course Sheffield Wednesday and the power of faith. Best do not confuse it with real science and real misunderstandings of it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly Date: 07 Jul 13 - 09:38 AM Best not get confused with subtext. No imaginary friends assisting when I wrote my thesis, trust me on that even if all else is bollocks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Jul 13 - 10:51 AM "Bollocks!" Another wonderful expression, courtesy of the people in the UK. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 08 Jul 13 - 01:29 AM "Indeterminate state cannot be either / or. Both states are feasible hence the word "and." Nonsense. The cat is either alive or dead. The outside observer not knowing so does not change that. That was Schrodinger's point. Astrid explained that well enough as have many others, Don't you have the sense to understand a joke once it is explained to you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: GUEST,Musket sans Heisenberg Date: 08 Jul 13 - 06:09 AM Nobody ever explained you to me. Dead and alive describes the indeterminate state prior to observation in terms of Copenhagen and Heisenberg. Without that semantic distinction, the two slit experiment would fail. When I let my dog out, I don't observe what goes on in the garden but the status of any local cats daft enough to hang around can only be guessed. Observation leads to knowing what you shouldn't wish to know and someone well and truly in the dog house. Schroedinger made his point but only in trying to dismiss what later was recognised as a key plank (Planck?) of quantum mechanics. He later regretted it, sd did Einstein for egging him on. All there in myriad history of science books should you need to go beyond the default position of trying, unsuccessfully, to take umbrage at anything I type. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: MGM·Lion Date: 08 Jul 13 - 06:18 AM I have lost a copy of Leeds University Poetry 1954 [not sure of the year, but about then] which I have treasured since buying it in the streets of Cambridge where I was selling another poetry magazine, from a charming Leeds student who had come all the way to Cambridge just to sell it on the street. I think they had enterprisingly sent reps to the main university towns to sell copies. We fraternally/sororically bought one another's magazines, I remember; & then I bought her a coffee at the KP Cafe in King's Parade. The point of this is that a poem in there called "Pastoral" has stayed in my mind ever since, of which the first verse went She a First-Year Physicist I an Engineer Spring and summer too we kissed Nipple nape and ear. Heisenberg's Uncertainty Never ventured near. Another verse ended Planck had no such Constancy In 1952 Wish I could find it; recall the rest; and the author's name. Don't suppose anyone out there knows anything about it? Anyhow: this thread seemed the place to recall what I could of what I still regard as an exquisite little poem. ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: MGM·Lion Date: 08 Jul 13 - 06:21 AM That was BTW the first time I had heard of that so marvellously metaphorically harnessable concept, Heisenberg's Uncertainty. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 08 Jul 13 - 12:24 PM "Dead and alive describes the indeterminate state prior to observation in terms of Copenhagen and Heisenberg. Without that semantic distinction, the two slit experiment would fail. " The silliness which was exactly what Herr Schrodinger was mocking in his joke. "knowledge that you have which is unattainable to several of our more output orientated members. " Obviously the thought experiment of Musket's attention span, has been validated because Astrid spoke in the video of how the Copenhagen theory had been displaced. Yes, Herr Genius, We all know that in your world regretting having made a joke means it never happened. Out here in the real world, the cat is either dead or alive never both at once and sane people know that no matter what happens outside the box, the cat at least, knows that it is alive. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: gnu Date: 08 Jul 13 - 01:34 PM Well, I say buddy never owed a cat on accounta ya'd have to be blind and deaf not to know the cat was dead or alive without looking in the box. Go ahead. Put a live cat in a box and observe what happens... after, of course, you clean and bandage, if required, your wounds. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: Little Hawk Date: 08 Jul 13 - 01:37 PM Excellent point, gnu. ;-) We should try putting some of the more ill-tempered people here into a box and see what happens. Are they dead or alive? Or are they dead AND alive? Inquiring minds want to know. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 08 Jul 13 - 04:11 PM Let's start with Chongo. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: Little Hawk Date: 08 Jul 13 - 04:15 PM It's not that easy to put Chongo inside a box. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: GUEST,Musket educating pork Date: 08 Jul 13 - 04:24 PM "Here in the real world the cat can be dead or alive, as opposed to dead and alive". I take it that is Hello Sailor's point. 1. The description is of the quantum level, dead and alive. Cats don't exist at that level anyway you berk. 2. The Copenhagen principles have not been replaced, but refined. This is reality, not superstition. 3. You speak of the real world but elsewhere defend the concept of an imaginary friend. Make your mind up. For Clapton's sake, that fool could start an argument in an empty room. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: gnu Date: 08 Jul 13 - 04:41 PM My girlfriend could start an arguement with anyone in an empty room even if she was down the hall. I swear! Ask a simple question and ya never know where it's gonna go. Here... "Do you know where the newspaper is?" Now, any logical human being would answer "No." or, say, "In the dining room, dearest honeybunch." But, what I get is a question in a judgemental 'put down' tone of voice : "WHY don't you JUST use my iPad?" D'ya know what swatting a fly with an iPad makes her say? WOMENZ! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: Little Hawk Date: 08 Jul 13 - 04:44 PM "berk"? Could this be another cool UK expression I've missed up till now? Most people's primary imaginary friend is the false ego they've built up over a lifetime trying to impress, control or at least appease other people. It is akin to a mask, and it hides the original person till they themselves can't even remember or recognize their own true nature. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: GUEST,Musket again, sorry Date: 08 Jul 13 - 05:03 PM Yeah but this imaginary friend is my insulting term of reference for someone who reckons he is in the real world, not me, and sane people share his opinions. So... Do I insult him or thank him for his wit and wisdom? Insults are the de facto position I'm afraid. He is even willing to talk jibberish if the result is to somehow ridicule physics, if said physics is stated by yours truly. As ever, I bow to your ability to defuse matters. On threads such as these, I am not so good at suffering fools gladly. Berk. Stands for Berkley Hunt, rhyming slang, I'm afraid. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 08 Jul 13 - 06:38 PM " The description is of the quantum level, dead and alive. Cats don't exist at that level anyway you berk." EXACTLY!!!!, you disprove your own argument, reinforce Schrodinger's point, well and good BUT THEN YOU KEEP ON ARGUING. WHY??? As and excuse for childish name calling?? "2. The Copenhagen principles have not been replaced, but refined. This is reality, not superstition." Big news Einstein, quantum physics still exists. Astrid was talking about that one small interpretation, which has been discredited. But apparently the person who said this, believes the who Copenhagen interpretation to be discredited. I wonder which smartarse that might be? I am able to separate "the real world" my religion and from harmless banter. It is clear that you have not developed that ability. Here is some advice. Once your imaginary Physicist son uses that book to teach quantum mechanics to your imaginary dog. Get your dog to post on this thread. The dog would make more sense. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: Little Hawk Date: 08 Jul 13 - 11:06 PM Hmm. I found it: Berkeley Hunt Odd...but okay. I now have another weird UK expression to add to the list. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: GUEST,Musket sans Heisenberg Date: 09 Jul 13 - 02:28 AM Glad to see you can separate the real world from your religion, me old spunk bubble on the twat of life. Any chance of setting up classes for some of your mates? Not sure where my lad comes in on this. I did say he is far more up to date than me but just for the record my PhD is in a branch of physics so I am not sure I need a crutch to see you off. Hell, a one day diploma in aromatherapy would suffice. ... Plenty more where that came from littlehawk. Try using a few of your collection, it really is cathartic sometimes. You don't have to mean any of it, it doesn't have to be honest vitriol. Lying to Christians doesn't count. ...... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 09 Jul 13 - 03:37 AM Who has the degree in Physics? Musket? Or Ian Mather who Musket says doesn't post here? My looney and self contradictory old trout? You say many things, with next to zero credibility. But keep trying. One day you may understand Schrodinger's Burlesque joke. If Everett was right, maybe one of you already does. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: Little Hawk Date: 09 Jul 13 - 08:13 AM You've just been around the wrong "Christians", Musket. Several of the brightest, most socially progressive, and best people I've ever known or ever expect to know are Christians. And then too, some of them are Buddhists, Taoists, Hindus, etc...and they aren't exclusive about it, but respect one another's traditions and realize they have a great deal in common. There's far more happening there than you are aware of, but you can't find out about it if you never even bother to look. As in science, actual investigation and practical field work beats hell out of knee-jerk opinions based on nothing but past prejudice. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: GUEST,Musket sans belief Date: 09 Jul 13 - 08:47 AM I am sure 99% of the best brains, best mates and best everything else for that matter have professed a faith, Christianity amongst them. This isn't about faith though, it's about wearing it as a fashion mallet to club others. Jerk. We are happy with ourselves. We post as Musket, you refer to Mather. I am running out of characters on the keyboard, so bear with me here. Musket laughs at you and Mather thinks you are a c |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: GUEST,Tod Cholmondley-Haverning -Brown Date: 09 Jul 13 - 09:33 AM As a past master of Berkley Hunt and similar metaphors Can u let me know wher we can obtain this cat in a box thingy so that we may pursue its contents using my redundant pack of hounds or somethin? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 09 Jul 13 - 01:18 PM And I pity both Mather and Musket for believing they can be to different people at once. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: Little Hawk Date: 10 Jul 13 - 10:05 AM Penelope Rutledge is an inveterate opponent of the Berkeley Hunt, as she is opposed to any form of cruelty to animals. Her husband (soon to be ex-husband?) Winston Wellington-Jones is a strong proponent of fox hunting and other such idle pursuits of upper class twits and inconceivably wealthy bastards in the UK. This has led to much friction between the pair and may presage not the Rapture...but the Rupture...of their marital ties. In fact, they are getting along worse than Jack and Musket these days. Each one pities the other, regards the other's views with utter contempt, and hopes that some convenient "act of God" will occur, such as a very large tree falling on their spouse at an opportune moment. But the real question is...why just be 2 people when you can be 10 or 20 different people? Why limit the possibilities to only 1 version of yourself? Bob Dylan gets this. So does David Bowie. Most people don't. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: GUEST,Musket sans Clapton Date: 10 Jul 13 - 10:20 AM You haven't seen the others of us. Am I sat in the office preparing a board report or propping the bar up in the pub? We can do both whilst walking the good professor, restringing the guitar and having a crap. Never lonely. People who can differentiate between reality and cyber shit are not to be pitied. You yourself claim to appreciate science yet use medieval translations of stories as your moral guide. I am not as clever as you and try to reflect reality at all levels. I can however appreciate Mudcat as being a different place to my office which is a different place to the pub which is a different place to home. "You can be a gambler who never drew a hand You can be a sailor who never left dry land You can be Lord Jesus, all the world will understand Down where the drunkards roll." |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: Little Hawk Date: 10 Jul 13 - 11:09 AM "use medieval translations of stories as your moral guide" Say what??? Are you referring to the Bible? Okay, first of all...sure I appreciate science. It's perfectly straightforward, it's obviously practical, and it's useful...why would I not appreciate it? But I do not necessarily take everything in the Bible as my moral guide. Definitely not! The Bible is a big collection of writings by many different men in ancient times (but no women, unfortunately...I'm sure their views would have been worth hearing). It's been translated, re-translated, and edited with political intent by various people in different factions in the Church. It is not an infallible guide by any means, but it IS a very interesting collection of ancient viewpoints on God, humanity, life, morality, etc. There is much in the Bible that I do not necessarily agree with...specially taken on the literal level. There is much in the Bible that I do agree with, much of it in the form of parable or allegory. It depends on the passage, and on its interpretation (which can vary widely). When reading through it, as when reading through Shakespeare or anything else, I try to take in what good is there, understand it as best I can, and find whatever there is of value in it. This is how I approach life in general, and it's how I approach books, including the Bible. One has to figure out morality for oneself through one's own best judgement and through practical experience. I don't expect the Bible to do that for me, but I do appreciate the rich cultural and philosophical information that can be found in various parts of the Bible...and I feel the same about the Baghavad Gita (Hindu scriptures), Buddhist writings, Taoist writings, and various other books from world religions. They all have something quite useful to say. None of them should be taken as infallible...or as the final and complete word on everything. Christianity, by the way, might better be called "Paulianity", because the New Testament writings are fairly much dominated by the sections written by the apostle Paul...and I find myself often in disagreement with Paul's general attitude on things. He was a pretty odd duck. I have a feeling that if I had been alive at the time, Paul would probably have been in one school of thought about the religion, and I'd have been in another school entirely...one he would have regarded as "heretical". (there were many such divisions in the church throughout its history). The primary thing I like about Christianity is whatever has survived from the actual teachings given by Jesus. I like Jesus' general viewpoint on things, and I like the way he conducted himself. How accurate a record we have of what he did and said is, of course, questionable...because the various people who wrote about him afterward all had their own political axes to grind and they put their own personal slant on their accounts of him. (They really couldn't help but do so, I expect.) They often used him for various political purposes that were important to them at the time, and this couldn't help but distort the record. I think Jesus would be horrified by many of the practices and excesses of the church that was founded in his name...not to mention some of the other churches that have sprung from it. You see, the Bible itself is not my moral guide in any exclusive or all-embracing sense. My moral guide is, first of all, my own common sense...and after that, any kind of useful inspiration I can draw and sift from out of a variety of other sources...among which are the sacred writings of most of the great religions of the world. I look everywhere for inspiration, not just to one single holy book. If there is one single holy book, then the name for it is "life". That's what we are all experiencing, and it's real. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly Date: 10 Jul 13 - 12:24 PM The description was generic, the Bible is by no means the exclusive Scripture used by those following a religion. The Q'ran, torah and sundry other texts are used as moral guides. Hence I didn't say Bible. Here in The UK, the majority of those who profess to read Scripture read Islamic or Hindu texts according to government figures. The Bible was my reference though, ss I was answering Jerk's charge that you cannot be two people yet the other day he quite understandably noted his separation of his use of the Bible as a guide to his thoughts on science. I don't ridicule him for that but can't help using it to point out the absurdity of what he perceives as my schizophrenia, to use the term wrongly. I could of course have waffled less and just pointed out he is a bloody fool. I could of course have not posted and allowed others to come to the same conclusion without my prompting. Life is good. The sun is shining and I am firing up the bbq with a bottle of beer having just got home for the day. Not a relevant comment for this thread but why should he be the only one to orbit different planets? (With apologies to Goofus) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 10 Jul 13 - 02:05 PM Little Hawk, If you seriously consider taking Musky seriously, refer you to his holy text, the Militant Atheist thread, where he said that he only comes to the Mudcat to take the piss. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: Little Hawk Date: 10 Jul 13 - 10:25 PM Well, it's not that I have a big need to take Musket seriously, Jack, in fact I enjoy a certain amount of non-serious banter with him. It's just that I do enjoy voicing my own thoughts when a subject comes up that really interests me...and explaining them...so as to better clarify them for myself as well as for anyone else who might be listening. I like to write. I also like to be understood, if at all possible, so that's why I explain my thoughts in some detail. All of this helps me know myself better, and know better what my life is about. **** I do think that any person can be 2 people...or many people. For instance, I can choose to be a vengeful person...or a person who simply doesn't care...or I can choose to be a forgiving person...and those 3 choices are always in front of me...as well as numerous other possible choices. We remake ourselves in every moment by what and who we decide to be, and profound change is always possible if we simply decide to change and put some serious effort into doing so. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly Date: 11 Jul 13 - 01:16 AM Yeah but being one person would be to lower your guard. In cyberspace, that would never do. The thread Jerk refers to has evolved into the Genesis of a new religion. If stating the aims of a religious organisation is taking the piss, we are starting to get somewhere. I often thought vicars must have their fingers crossed when asking re faithful to dig deep and don't forget gift aid. ... Still, I suppose dismissing me is easier than defending Jerk's rather preposterous stances. Fair play to him. I'd use it to get myself out of a hole too if I spoke bollocks (and wasn't trying to. ) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: Little Hawk Date: 11 Jul 13 - 01:38 AM The world is full of new religions. They pop up like mushrooms. Every time a new political party starts up, for instance, you see the beginning of another religion. And sometimes there are writers like Ayn Rand who manage to create a new one all by themselves. Marx helped create a new religion which was soon called "Marxism", one of whose tenets was that religion is very, very bad ("the opiate of the masses")...;-)...and that it should be eliminated. His more fervent acolytes took him quite seriously, and they managed to kill millions of traditionally religious people while spreading their new faith across Russia, China, and various other parts of the world such as Cambodia, for example. Marx, however, had not seen modern television! Or corporate mass marketing as it now exists. If he had, he'd have realized what a truly effective opiate of the masses really looks like when it's put into action. And he would have been afraid...with good reason. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: GUEST,Musket sans Clapton Date: 11 Jul 13 - 03:22 AM Yes but ours is the true religion. We have bingo, gnomes, mouth organs and an errant greyhound. What's not to like? I often point out that most of what religion offered medieval peasants is covered for the masses today with soap opera and ipads. John Lennon got it right. They keep you doped with religion, sex and tv Till you think you're so clever and classless and free But you're still fucking peasants as far as I can see. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: Little Hawk Date: 11 Jul 13 - 10:14 AM Yeah, Lennon sure nailed it in that verse. Back to what you said... "We have bingo, gnomes, mouth organs and an errant greyhound." Christ! That is pretty enticing, allright. Hard to resist. Where do I join up? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: GUEST,Musket sans blood of the Messiah Date: 11 Jul 13 - 10:46 AM You have to be approached. Be prepared to roll your trouser leg up, bear your breast and swear to have your tongue cut out if you know or learn the true name of God before you become a chapter member. Oh and if you know his name can you inform Dave, Steve or yours truly? Cos we mislaid the piece of paper with it written on. I reckon we used the paper to write to Betty Swollox sacking her. I assume it's a he. We want to be taken seriously as a really genuine religion and the misogyny clause seems to be important. As does seeing men who make good soufflés as second class citizens. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: Little Hawk Date: 11 Jul 13 - 11:03 AM Damn! We were so close, but you lost me on the "assume it's a he" part. I've always preferred the idea of God as a woman. In fact, I introduce one of my songs that way, saying, "This song could be about a woman...or it could be about God...but those are just 2 ways of saying the same thing." At any rate... This means a holy war, you cursed infidel! Prepare to be pillaged, sacked, and generally messed up beyond all recognition and in a most severe manner when we swarm over your shattered battlements and put you and your firstborn to the sword...but in a sacred fashion, you understand. No impropriety here! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly Date: 11 Jul 13 - 11:30 AM My woman is god ish. I refine the term somewhat and refer to her as my responsible adult. If writing soppy songs for her is adoration, then she is worshipped by me in the same way as Sheffield Wednesday, pickled eggs and my Triumph Stag. She may not like the comparison. She may not like being referred to as my woman. Haha she never reads Mudcat. Keyboard sans responsibility. I heartily recommend it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: Little Hawk Date: 11 Jul 13 - 11:37 AM She is wise not to read Mudcat. Think of all the time she saves for more useful activity. ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: GUEST,Musket procrastinating Date: 11 Jul 13 - 11:41 AM Yeah but who wants to be working all ruddy day? Flicking to Mudcat can be fun. Especially when you have no other social media outlet. I don't do Facebook etc. No reason, just can't be arsed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor? From: Little Hawk Date: 11 Jul 13 - 11:46 AM Same here. Can't be bothered with Facebook. Now...I think I had best go and do several things I've been procrastinating on while I was having fun here. |
