BS: The world's worst metaphor?

Subject: BS: The world's worst metaphor?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Jul 13 - 04:42 PM

The cat is dead AND alive!

Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 13 - 05:23 PM

Marvelous! She's a smart one, and great fun to listen to.

Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Jul 13 - 05:35 PM

And the best part is that as an 8 minute video it is knowledge that you have which is unattainable to several of our more output orientated members.

Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor?
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Jul 13 - 05:42 PM

Quite well done!

Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor?
From: gnu
Date: 04 Jul 13 - 08:18 PM

I am in love! Totally smitten in my heart and in my mind! Now... that's a babe!

Ahhhh... sorry. Ummm. Indeed, the lass speaks volumes and her treatise is laudible and... ohhhh... yeah... all that and she just melts my mind and heart. That's the lass I wanted to meet 30 years ago.

Men go crazy for a smart dreesed mind. Apologies to ZZ Top.

Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jul 13 - 12:09 AM

I agree 100%.

Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Jul 13 - 11:21 AM

:=)

Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor?
From: GUEST,Musket sans Heisenberg
Date: 05 Jul 13 - 04:42 PM

Lots of burlesque activity from "output orientated" members. Usually helps prevent absurd notions from growing legs.

Waveforms usually collapse when metaphysical input rears its head.

The video? fascinating to see her explore the human necessity of the metaphor. Einstein referred to this in his letters to Nils Bohr on the subject. Make interesting reading. If anyone likes her approach, you may be interested in the book, How to teach quantum physics to your dog. I forget who wrote it without looking, but bought it on Kindle last year. My youngest lad revommendef6it. He is influenced by the easy going style of explaining complicated notions. His PhD thesis is around quantum tunnelling and he does try to keep his old man up to date, but as it isn't beer or pickled eggs, he has problems engaging me.

Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 13 - 07:03 PM

So let me get this straight,

Ian does not exist here, only Musket.
Musket is not Ian,

So exactly who is teaching Quantum Physics to whose dog?

Does the dog have a quantum existence whereby when Ian observes it, it is real but when Musket teaches it Physics, it is imaginary?

Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jul 13 - 12:51 AM

You never know. The dog may be of the opinion that Ian is imaginary, but we'd have to interview the dog to find out.

I've been watching this woman's other videos. She is delightful. Very witty. I bet she's a wonderful teacher.

Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor?
From: GUEST,Musket sans Heisenberg
Date: 06 Jul 13 - 03:43 AM

The dog can be either side of the Atlantic. This is known as wave duality. Note the lack of cause and effect though, that is the bedrock and you reach the point of taking it on board without really accepting it.

This can be explained by the fact that this particular dog shits out more than he eats. But if either I don't go up the garden with a poop scoop or I don't ask the dog walker how he got on during the day, how can I know that? He defies physics and doesn't defy physics. Instantaneously.

Perhaps Musket has a clockwise spin and Ian anticlockwise?

Perhaps mixing metaphysical with physical ain't such a good idea after all. .....



By the way. The cat isn't a bad metaphor, it was down right sarcasm at the time. Burlesque is just politeness. ....

Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 06 Jul 13 - 03:47 AM

In my untiring search for a better "metaphor" linking quantum mechanics to the life status of animals, I was inspired by the current season in Europe:

• A particle of uncertain position resembles a fly flying around at infinite speed near a window.
• A fly swatter is a location measuring device.
• If you swat a sufficient number of "identical" flies, you can get an idea of their probability distribution.

I consider sending my window to a university, as a PhD thesis in didactics of physics. I would not upload a video on YouTube though, since the effect may be that animal protectors try to ban quantum physics from curricula ...

Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor?
From: GUEST,Musket sans utube
Date: 06 Jul 13 - 03:52 AM

You may not be quite so photogenic as the young lady either.

Some of the old codgers above seem rather taken by her.

Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 06 Jul 13 - 04:43 AM

A nice play on words in the video! The cat is "Dead AND alive" she says!!! But actually the cat is 'Dead OR alive' we know it cannot be both at the same time!........ just saying!!!

Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 06 Jul 13 - 04:54 AM

Musket, I'm not sure whether I would like to be "taken" by the above gentlemen. I think I'd prefer being a PhD. Also, if the lady happened to appear in real life in the life of any of us, I wonder how long our love would last. What wonderful things are videos at home: you can switch them on and off whenever you like!

Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor?
From: gnu
Date: 06 Jul 13 - 05:35 AM

You guys crack me up. What a great thread! I want a tshirt with "WANTED... DEAD and ALIVE.

Musket... if the walker didn't observe perhaps the dog wouldn't shit.

Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor?
From: Musket
Date: 06 Jul 13 - 08:44 AM

Georgiansilver. Dead AND alive. Just saying...

You know, Gnu.. The dog does prefer humans to observe. If he does it in the rough, on the dead dredgings of the dyke we walk alongside, he gets a gravy bone. He wouldn't get one if I didn't observe him. Hence he seeks to influence the outcome and the wave collapses.

Grishka, you can turn the video on or off, but you can't alter its spin.....

Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jul 13 - 09:48 AM

Hmm. We had a dog who was embarrassed to be seen when he'd shit. He'd try to conceal himself in the bushes. I realize that's unusual, but dogs do have their quirks.

Also had a guineau pig who peed vastly more water than he ever drank! I eventually realized he was creating water as a byproduct of all the (dry) food he was eating...through combustion. You take hydrocarbons...the food...oxidize it (burn it) through the digestive process...and the byproducts of same are shit (carbon and various other byproducts from the food), energy (to power the pig), and H2O! Eureka!

Now...dead AND alive... Hell, that's easy! I've seen any number of people who were dead AND alive at the same time.

Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor?
From: GUEST,Musket being a smartarse
Date: 06 Jul 13 - 01:40 PM

If you saw people who were dead and alive, you didn't. The wave collapses as observation is interference. Proving becomes a self fulfilling prophesy. Mind you, medieval quill pushers knew that to their advantage well before Heisenberg or Bose.

Good job Copenhagen is also famous for beer and lovely ladies....

Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 06 Jul 13 - 03:04 PM

If you saw people who were dead and alive, you didn't.

Musket, you strive to prevent absurd notions from growing legs. Let me remind you, as amply stated in many texts for decades, that if being alive were an elementary quantum property, there would be beings that are dead at a given time, beings that are alive at that time, and beings of indeterminable life status, all three perfectly observable per se, but the latter neither dead nor alive, at any time! Trying to apply a device for measuring the life status of "such" a being amounts to it not being of that type at all, but either dead or alive. "Collapsing the wave function" is just a sloven way of speaking for the "wave function" never having existed independently of the measuring device.

I read about that the double slit experiment. If I understood correctly, the theory can describes it and predict the results exactly, it just has no "explanation" conforming to the everyday intuition of humans including physicists.

Correct me if your son tells you I'm wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor?
From: GUEST,Musket sans Heisenberg
Date: 06 Jul 13 - 03:26 PM

I don't strive to prevent absurd notions, I am a season ticket holder at Sheffield Wednesday so can exhibit group delusion at will.

I can describe how we will win, I can predict the result AND I can explain why we lost anyway


Quantum mechanics? Bring it on!

Mind you, collapsing wave functions is for me a convenient way of describing the indescribable.   Saying what happens at the quantum level is as counterintuitive as religion yet many accept it. The difference being the ability to reform theories based on better tighter information.

My son would require beer I'm afraid. ....

Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 06 Jul 13 - 03:59 PM

Sillysparrow should be on telly, she was fun!

Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor?
From: michaelr
Date: 06 Jul 13 - 05:21 PM

I liked the episode where the smart Astrid introduces us to her various personae. I guess she forgot to mention the exhibitionist...

Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Jul 13 - 06:02 PM

Georgian Silver, you are absolutely right. In reality the Cat is Dead or Alive.

The "Dead and Alive" premise is exactly the premise that the "thought experiment" of the cat and the poison is mocking

Schrodinger saying that the Cat is BOTH dean and alive until observed, when that is clearly impossible and ansurd is the "burlesque" of the idea.

Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor?
From: gnu
Date: 06 Jul 13 - 10:12 PM

"I don't strive to prevent absurd notions, I am a season ticket holder at Sheffield Wednesday so can exhibit group delusion at will.

I can describe how we will win, I can predict the result AND I can explain why we lost anyway"

HAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAAAHHAHAHAHHAHAAAHEHEHHEHEHEHHEEEEEEE... and so forth!

I need a tissue!

AHHHAHAHAHAAAAAA................

Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jul 13 - 12:38 AM

Heh! Well, I was implying that those various people I saw were...

physically alive, but...

mentally, emotionally and/or spiritually dead.

Maybe that is what accounts for the popularity of zombie films lately.

***

Sillysparrow is doing a wonderful job at using her English, which is a second language for her. She's a German. I gather she teaches English in school.

Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor?
From: GUEST,Musket sans Heisenberg
Date: 07 Jul 13 - 03:03 AM

Indeterminate state cannot be either / or. Both states are feasible hence the word "and."

This point is described in Hawkins brief history of time. It clarifies why the cat analogy won over the original one that Schroedinger and Einstein cooked up together. Einstein back pedalled after reading a paper from Bose who was a young student in India who sent him a paper.

Mind you, pedantic discussion over indeterminate state in itself requires acceptance of Heisenberg and his uncertainty principle. All hypothesis and nobody gets killed for believing it.

Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor?
From: gnu
Date: 07 Jul 13 - 05:25 AM

Might as well go for a soda then?






Might as well go for a soda
Nobody hurts and nobody cries
Might as well go for a soda
Nobody drowns and nobody dies

    Kim Mitchell

Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor?
From: Musket
Date: 07 Jul 13 - 05:31 AM

If the soda goes flat, is it still soda? If you put it in a box.........

Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 07 Jul 13 - 05:40 AM

Musket, I appreciate some smalltalk about "memes" or "metaphors" of science, and of course Sheffield Wednesday and the power of faith. Best do not confuse it with real science and real misunderstandings of it.

Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor?
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 07 Jul 13 - 09:38 AM

Best not get confused with subtext.   No imaginary friends assisting when I wrote my thesis, trust me on that even if all else is bollocks.

Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jul 13 - 10:51 AM

"Bollocks!" Another wonderful expression, courtesy of the people in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Jul 13 - 01:29 AM

"Indeterminate state cannot be either / or. Both states are feasible hence the word "and."

Nonsense. The cat is either alive or dead. The outside observer not knowing so does not change that. That was Schrodinger's point.

Astrid explained that well enough as have many others,

Don't you have the sense to understand a joke once it is explained to you?

Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor?
From: GUEST,Musket sans Heisenberg
Date: 08 Jul 13 - 06:09 AM

Nobody ever explained you to me.

Dead and alive describes the indeterminate state prior to observation in terms of Copenhagen and Heisenberg. Without that semantic distinction, the two slit experiment would fail.

When I let my dog out, I don't observe what goes on in the garden but the status of any local cats daft enough to hang around can only be guessed. Observation leads to knowing what you shouldn't wish to know and someone well and truly in the dog house.

Schroedinger made his point but only in trying to dismiss what later was recognised as a key plank (Planck?) of quantum mechanics. He later regretted it, sd did Einstein for egging him on. All there in myriad history of science books should you need to go beyond the default position of trying, unsuccessfully, to take umbrage at anything I type.

Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jul 13 - 06:18 AM

I have lost a copy of Leeds University Poetry 1954 [not sure of the year, but about then] which I have treasured since buying it in the streets of Cambridge where I was selling another poetry magazine, from a charming Leeds student who had come all the way to Cambridge just to sell it on the street. I think they had enterprisingly sent reps to the main university towns to sell copies. We fraternally/sororically bought one another's magazines, I remember; & then I bought her a coffee at the KP Cafe in King's Parade. The point of this is that a poem in there called "Pastoral" has stayed in my mind ever since, of which the first verse went

She a First-Year Physicist
I an Engineer
Spring and summer too we kissed
Nipple nape and ear.
Heisenberg's Uncertainty
Never ventured near.

Another verse ended

Planck had no such Constancy
In 1952

Wish I could find it; recall the rest; and the author's name.

Don't suppose anyone out there knows anything about it?

Anyhow: this thread seemed the place to recall what I could of what I still regard as an exquisite little poem.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jul 13 - 06:21 AM

That was BTW the first time I had heard of that so marvellously metaphorically harnessable concept, Heisenberg's Uncertainty.

Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Jul 13 - 12:24 PM

"Dead and alive describes the indeterminate state prior to observation in terms of Copenhagen and Heisenberg. Without that semantic distinction, the two slit experiment would fail. "

The silliness which was exactly what Herr Schrodinger was mocking in his joke.

"knowledge that you have which is unattainable to several of our more output orientated members. " Obviously the thought experiment of Musket's attention span, has been validated because Astrid spoke in the video of how the Copenhagen theory had been displaced.


Yes, Herr Genius, We all know that in your world regretting having made a joke means it never happened. Out here in the real world, the cat is either dead or alive never both at once and sane people know that no matter what happens outside the box, the cat at least, knows that it is alive.

Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor?
From: gnu
Date: 08 Jul 13 - 01:34 PM

Well, I say buddy never owed a cat on accounta ya'd have to be blind and deaf not to know the cat was dead or alive without looking in the box. Go ahead. Put a live cat in a box and observe what happens... after, of course, you clean and bandage, if required, your wounds.

Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Jul 13 - 01:37 PM

Excellent point, gnu. ;-) We should try putting some of the more ill-tempered people here into a box and see what happens. Are they dead or alive? Or are they dead AND alive? Inquiring minds want to know.

Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Jul 13 - 04:11 PM

Let's start with Chongo.

Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Jul 13 - 04:15 PM

It's not that easy to put Chongo inside a box.

Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor?
From: GUEST,Musket educating pork
Date: 08 Jul 13 - 04:24 PM

"Here in the real world the cat can be dead or alive, as opposed to dead and alive". I take it that is Hello Sailor's point.

1. The description is of the quantum level, dead and alive. Cats don't exist at that level anyway you berk.

2. The Copenhagen principles have not been replaced, but refined. This is reality, not superstition.

3. You speak of the real world but elsewhere defend the concept of an imaginary friend.

Make your mind up.

For Clapton's sake, that fool could start an argument in an empty room.

Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor?
From: gnu
Date: 08 Jul 13 - 04:41 PM

My girlfriend could start an arguement with anyone in an empty room even if she was down the hall. I swear! Ask a simple question and ya never know where it's gonna go. Here... "Do you know where the newspaper is?" Now, any logical human being would answer "No." or, say, "In the dining room, dearest honeybunch." But, what I get is a question in a judgemental 'put down' tone of voice : "WHY don't you JUST use my iPad?"

D'ya know what swatting a fly with an iPad makes her say?

WOMENZ!

Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Jul 13 - 04:44 PM

"berk"? Could this be another cool UK expression I've missed up till now?

Most people's primary imaginary friend is the false ego they've built up over a lifetime trying to impress, control or at least appease other people. It is akin to a mask, and it hides the original person till they themselves can't even remember or recognize their own true nature.

Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor?
From: GUEST,Musket again, sorry
Date: 08 Jul 13 - 05:03 PM

Yeah but this imaginary friend is my insulting term of reference for someone who reckons he is in the real world, not me, and sane people share his opinions.

So... Do I insult him or thank him for his wit and wisdom?

Insults are the de facto position I'm afraid. He is even willing to talk jibberish if the result is to somehow ridicule physics, if said physics is stated by yours truly.

As ever, I bow to your ability to defuse matters. On threads such as these, I am not so good at suffering fools gladly.






Berk. Stands for Berkley Hunt, rhyming slang, I'm afraid.

Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Jul 13 - 06:38 PM

" The description is of the quantum level, dead and alive. Cats don't exist at that level anyway you berk."

EXACTLY!!!!, you disprove your own argument, reinforce Schrodinger's point, well and good BUT THEN YOU KEEP ON ARGUING. WHY??? As and excuse for childish name calling??

"2. The Copenhagen principles have not been replaced, but refined. This is reality, not superstition."

Big news Einstein, quantum physics still exists. Astrid was talking about that one small interpretation, which has been discredited.

But apparently the person who said this, believes the who Copenhagen interpretation to be discredited. I wonder which smartarse that might be?

I am able to separate "the real world" my religion and from harmless banter. It is clear that you have not developed that ability. Here is some advice. Once your imaginary Physicist son uses that book to teach quantum mechanics to your imaginary dog. Get your dog to post on this thread. The dog would make more sense.

Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Jul 13 - 11:06 PM

Hmm. I found it:    Berkeley Hunt

Odd...but okay. I now have another weird UK expression to add to the list.

Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor?
From: GUEST,Musket sans Heisenberg
Date: 09 Jul 13 - 02:28 AM

Glad to see you can separate the real world from your religion, me old spunk bubble on the twat of life. Any chance of setting up classes for some of your mates?

Not sure where my lad comes in on this. I did say he is far more up to date than me but just for the record my PhD is in a branch of physics so I am not sure I need a crutch to see you off.   Hell, a one day diploma in aromatherapy would suffice. ...





Plenty more where that came from littlehawk. Try using a few of your collection, it really is cathartic sometimes. You don't have to mean any of it, it doesn't have to be honest vitriol. Lying to Christians doesn't count. ......

Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Jul 13 - 03:37 AM

Who has the degree in Physics? Musket? Or Ian Mather who Musket says doesn't post here? My looney and self contradictory old trout?

You say many things, with next to zero credibility. But keep trying. One day you may understand Schrodinger's Burlesque joke.

If Everett was right, maybe one of you already does.

Subject: RE: BS: The world's worst metaphor?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Jul 13 - 08:13 AM

You've just been around the wrong "Christians", Musket. Several of the brightest, most socially progressive, and best people I've ever known or ever expect to know are Christians. And then too, some of them are Buddhists, Taoists, Hindus, etc...and they aren't exclusive about it, but respect one another's traditions and realize they have a great deal in common. There's far more happening there than you are aware of, but you can't find out about it if you never even bother to look.

As in science, actual investigation and practical field work beats hell out of knee-jerk opinions based on nothing but past prejudice.