BS: Caravan Woes

Subject: BS: Caravan Woes
From: banjoman
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 05:17 AM

Has anyone else had experience of a caravan suddenly detaching itself from the towing vehicle.
Happened to us last week despite certainty that it was properly hitched up. This was a brand new caravan and the first time out with it. Fortunate that it happened on a minor road a short distance from where it was stored so we were able to get it back in to the yard.
Some damage to one of the rear panels but mainly concerned about whether or not there is a fault with the hitch itself as this happened a second time when we tried to tow it back in and ended up using the motor mover. The sellers are adamant that there is no way it could detach if it was on ok. I have been towing trailers and caravans for almost 50 years so know how to hitch up.
Anyone who has similar incidents or advice please respond.
Currently processing insurance claim but may have to make a warranty claim as well

Subject: RE: BS: Caravan Woes
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 06:50 AM

1. I have had it happen three times - every single one my fault. Now I not only make sure that the caravan can slightly lift the back of the car before moving, but also I deliberately jerk the car forwards as soon as I am on a tarmac surface so that if it is going to jump off, it will do it there and then before I get up any significant speed.

2. The modern Al-ko stabilisers demand extra clearance round the ball. If your new van is the first time you have had an Al-ko you may need to change the ball.

3. Indeed if your ball is old it is theoretically possible that it may have worn.

Subject: RE: BS: Caravan Woes
From: banjoman
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 07:07 AM

Thanks Richard - sounds good advice and pretty much the same procedure as I have used for a long time.
The tow ball is a detachable fitted by the manufacturers (Vauxhall 2013 Zafira tourer)and was checked as being suitable when we collected the new caravan. Before detaching I had towed the unit through a very tight right hand u turn through the access gate and then over a substantial speed hump. The incident occurred when I applied left lock up a very slight incline to join the main road. The second detachment happened at exactly the same spot which is why I think there may be a fault with the hitch.
Thanks again - the caravan is now to be inspected early next week.(just had a phone call from the sellers)

Subject: RE: BS: Caravan Woes
From: selby
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 07:54 AM

I would agree with you that the problem lies with the hitch, the only other mechanical problem you could have is that the ball is not round, a pair of outside callipers or a vernier gauge would identify that for you.
Keith

Subject: RE: BS: Caravan Woes
From: Mooh
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 08:19 AM

I once had a trailer with a lock that would fool me into thinking it was secure, but I learned to always check it by feel and by lifting the trailer to be sure it was secure. It was a smallish utility trailer so that was possible, maybe not so with a heavier trailer. Ball size is critical. Check the lock, some will prevent proper connection. Tongue weight is necessary.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: BS: Caravan Woes
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 11:02 PM

The kind barrister....aka solicitor dick ... is jerking your chain.

The Al-Ko Haul problem is common throughout all the UK...but especially recognized with caravan haulers at the end of weekends.

Subject: RE: BS: Caravan Woes
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 12:46 AM

Can we have that again, in some clear and rational form?

Subject: RE: BS: Caravan Woes
From: My guru always said
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 02:52 AM

Very worrying if it's the Hitch, hadn't heard of Al-Ko haul problems, so I'd like to hear more about that from our Guest. Preferably without any spiteful words, quite unnecessary.

We too always check to see if the caravan can lift the car when hitched, though we haven't tried checking by a sudden jerk when moving. It gets enough of that on the 30 weekends that we tow the caravan during the year, especially as we nearly always have to use the M25.

Could be an off-kilter worn tow-ball of course, I wonder how well it was checked when you collected the van. Hope the inspection finds the fault, good luck with it!

Subject: RE: BS: Caravan Woes
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 03:31 AM

Here is stuff about a different but possibly related problem: -

http://www.caravantalk.co.uk/community/topic/3269-al-ko-stabiliser-releasing-itself/

Subject: RE: BS: Caravan Woes
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 03:39 AM

This looks quite relevant

http://www.practicalcaravan.com/forum/technical/caravan-detaching-tow-car

Subject: RE: BS: Caravan Woes
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 03:42 AM

Found this too: -

"The coupling has a thick casting and to get the required 25 degree tilt on the ball extra clearance is required on the neck of the ball. The Alko hitch requires 65mm clearance below the centreline of the ball where the standard is 32mm. With a standard ball the Alko hitch will foul the neck of the ball when the trailer tilts sideways or forwards before the required 25 degrees is reached. "

Subject: RE: BS: Caravan Woes
From: Gurney
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 06:07 PM

Engraved in my memory: Dad was towing around a cliff road in Devon when the 'van came off. My young sister was looking back and saw it happen. Dad didn't even look back, just put the loud pedal down. The van followed us for a while until the camber took it into the cliff, tore open at front and back, reared up on one wheel and spun across the road and put the towbar through a drystone wall.
We nailed the ends back on (Dad had built the 'van)and threw the belongings back inside and got out of there. Never saw another vehicle whilst this was going on, and he drove 250 miles with people passing us and shouting that the wheel was coming off. It wasn't, just EXTREMELY buckled.
Wouldn't happen today. Pin-and-Eye couplings are only found on trucks, and when was the last caravan hand-made in a backyard, from hand-sawed-up railway sleepers, salvaged bed angle-iron, and budgeted-for hardboard?

He originally built the van to be towed with a 1100cc BSA motorcycle outfit. It was a three-wheeler then, with a nose-wheel from a Spitfire fighter! It went well until the police stopped him. Too wide, too fast, too heavy.
Another story.

Subject: RE: BS: Caravan Woes
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 06:26 PM

1100 BSA motorcycle? Do tell more.

Subject: RE: BS: Caravan Woes
From: Rumncoke
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 07:02 PM

Yea - I had a 1950s BSA A10, 650cc - I never even knew there was a bigger one - or I'd have wanted one, I expect, so lucky escape there.

I rebuilt it in the dining room of my student flat in Southsea Hampshire in about 1971 and drove it with a Watsonian sidecar.

Subject: RE: BS: Caravan Woes
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 11:08 PM

":3. Indeed if your ball is old it is theoretically possible that it may have worn."

No comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Caravan Woes
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 10:22 AM

My Dad had a Beezer Gold Flash 650 with a Panther double adult sidecar. Took me, Mum, Dad, Brother and Sister to many a caravan holiday in N. Wales. Dad driving, Mum on pillion, 3 kids and luggage in the sidecar. Eeeeeh, them were the days :-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Caravan Woes
From: Bert
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 04:38 PM

Er, that is what the chains are for.

I had an Airstream once jump the ball (that is another story) and was hanging on the chains. Fortunately I had snugged the chains up tight, so there was no damage.

I put it back on the ball and lashed it down with rope to finish the journey.

Subject: RE: BS: Caravan Woes
From: EBarnacle
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 08:46 PM

The Holland Tunnel between New York and New Jersey has not allowed trailers on private or commercial vehicles since 9/11. When I inquired why the ban was still in place, I was told that it was because trailers can detach from their tow vehicles. At the same time, they are allowed through the Lincoln Tunnel a little further North.

Subject: RE: BS: Caravan Woes
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 10:51 PM

Many tunnels, especially in the eastern US, do not permit campers and may limit/prohibit self-propelled units because they restrict any carrying of propane in the tunnels. In some cases you can "seal and certificate" by having the gas shut off, inspected, and seals applied to prevent turning on without breaking the seals, but the procedure is too complex for more than exceptional cases.

"Coming unhooked" is extremely rare with common US equipment as long as the towed unit stays right side up (and simple inspections will show when it's otherwise possible). I don't know of a tunnel where that's the reason cited by "Camper/RV advisors" in route information for a prohibition on towed units, but do believe an "enforcer" might use it as an excuse since it's simpler than a real explanation.

US and UK standards and practices are very different for hitches and other trailering devices, especially for "civilian uses." I've found that it takes significant research to comment "across-borders" without looking like an idiot, so in a few of my better moments I've tried to avoid the more obvious blunders. (I'm aware that success has been "variable," so there's no need to remind me of previous posts.)

John

Subject: RE: BS: Caravan Woes
From: My guru always said
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 03:18 AM

Chains?

In the UK we have a brake cable which apparently puts the caravan brakes on when detached from the tow-ball, but no idea how helpful it is at a decent speed.

Gurney, that's totally crazy, a great memory *grin*

Subject: RE: BS: Caravan Woes
From: banjoman
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 09:47 AM

All now seems well. The caravan has been inspected and needs a new rear bumper panel. The tow hitch tested and no fault found. Conclusion: I must have been at fault in hitching up. The guy who did the inspection said that the new AL-KO hitches have the red/green indicator obscured by the stabiliser bar so its possible to think the van is hitched ok when its not.
Thanks to all those who responded - lots of useful info which others may find useful.
The moral of the tale is: Check and check again before moving off, or buy a campervan.

Subject: RE: BS: Caravan Woes
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 10:28 AM

I hope you are right... Did you personally check the undercut on the ball and the extent to which the Al-Ko hitch can pitch and roll?

You may want to try your test corner again VERY VERY SLOWLY.

Subject: RE: BS: Caravan Woes
From: banjoman
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 06:31 AM

Richard - yes the guy who did the inspection brought all sorts of callipers and vernier type gauges. He also hitched to his own truck & towed the caravan to road test. No problems but I will be extra careful on that bit of road from now on. The estimate for repair is £600 so it will have to go thro' insurance. Thankfully, with the aid of a bit of repair tape (provided) the van is useable. There is currently a 6 -12 week waiting list for the parts and we are away at Whitby in August.
Thanks again
Pete

Subject: RE: BS: Caravan Woes
From: EBarnacle
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 12:09 PM

According to their web site, the Al-Ko hitches are very similar to shat we use here even though we do not generally use the bells and whistles.
Make sure the ball is properly greased and the safety lock is either through bolted or locked and, if the sizing is right, you should have no further problems.

I've been towing boats and other objects for years with nary a problem from the trailer.

The nut behind the wheel is another matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Caravan Woes
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 03:25 PM

NEVER EVER GREASE AN AL-KO BALL. It stops it working!

Subject: RE: BS: Caravan Woes
From: banjoman
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 05:18 AM

Glad you put that one in CAPITALS Richard.
Hitched up this morning & towed over THAT bit of road - No Problems.
Looks like the trip to Whitby is back on
Thanks again

Subject: RE: BS: Caravan Woes
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 04:53 AM

Chains?

In the UK we have a brake cable which apparently puts the caravan brakes on when detached from the tow-ball, but no idea how helpful it is at a decent speed.

As with everything else in the US, of course we have Federal Regulations along with a variety of State regulations. There sometimes is some consistency between the two ... .

For lighter weight trailers, the "ball and socket" hitch connection is almost universally used in the US. The "Ball" is on the towing vehicle, and a "socket" on the tongue of the trailer latches onto the ball.

ALL TRAILERS using the ball and socket hitch are required to have two "safety chains," generally with one bolted (sometimes welded) to each side of the trailer tongue. Normal practice is to "cross" the chains under the ball/socket and hook them to attachment points on either side of the ball on the towing vehicle.

If the socket "comes loose" the theory is that the tongue will fall onto the "cradle" made by the crossed chains, keeping a somewhat "loose connection" that still provides some directional guidance to the trailer. This actually works better than might be expected ... ... ... sometimes.

Lightweight "utility trailers" may not be required to have brakes, but for most camper class (caravans) up to about 2,000 lb (900 kg) an "inertia brake" may be used. The trailer is equipped with hydraulic brakes, drum or disk, and a "master cyclinder" on the trailer tongue has sufficient "slip" that when the trailer pushes against the tow vehicle, as when the tow vehicle slows down, the piston is pushed in to apply hydraulic braking to the trailer.

An overlapping range of trailer sizes from around 1,500 lb up to around 8,000 lb generally will have electrically actuated brakes, with a controller in the tow vehicle that applies the trailer brakes whenever the tow vehicle brakes are applied.

Generally, any towed load with electric brakes is required to have a "breakaway switch." A pin in the switch (on the trailer tongue) is attached to the tow vehicle by a cable, so if the two separate the pin is pulled and the trailer brakes lock up. Most such setups require at least a battery in the trailer to apply the brakes, although sometimes power from the tow vehicle "unapplies" them and a spring applies them if the power goes away (railroad style?).

While theoretically the ball and socket hitch can be used up to around 12,000 lb gross towed load or higher, at about about 6,000 lb and up it's common to go to a "fifth wheel" arrangement that closely mimics the "tilt plate - pin and hole" arrangement used on tractor/trailer (a.k.a. semi/18-wheeler) transport rigs.

From the descriptions of the Al-Ko hitches here, I'd have to say that the common "anti-sway" devices commonly used in the US are signficiantly "more robust" than those, but that's sort of a separate subject. My impression (based on no real evidence) is that campers/caravans in the US tend to be bigger and heavier than in most elsewheres, but there aren't many places where you'd drive 1,850 miles each way to camp for a week at a festival - as we did the first 3 years we had our tiny little 1,800 lb (loaded) Jayco pop-up.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Caravan Woes
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 06:21 AM

The UK government says

"4. Towing an American caravan or trailer
American trailers and caravans don't always meet European safety regulations.

If you want to use an American caravan or trailer in the UK or the EU, you must first check that it's legal.

Download 'Department for Transport factsheet about towing American caravans or trailers' (PDF, 57KB)"

That comes from here: - https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car/towing-an-american-caravan-or-trailer

The PDF factsheet is here - http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/@motor/documents/digitalasset/dg_200827.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Caravan Woes
From: EBarnacle
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 08:53 AM

OK, Richard, why is it a nono to grease an AL-KO hitch?

Subject: RE: BS: Caravan Woes
From: The Barden of England
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 05:23 PM

The AL-KO hitch has four friction pads which, when the lever is pressed down, clamp on the the towing ball. If there is ANY grease it negates the anti-snaking properties and renders it useless.
John Barden

Subject: RE: BS: Caravan Woes
From: My guru always said
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 09:22 AM

Yes, you need to have non-greasy balls for an AL-Ko, definitely!

JinK: That chain system sounds very logical, and if it affords some guidance when the tow-ball is detached from the hitch that's great! I'm sure that trailers in the US are larger than than in the UK. Ours is about 21' and we use it for festivals about 30 weekends a year. Distances are smaller here too, going 250 miles each way would be a long way for us. 1,850 miles *WOW*

Subject: RE: BS: Caravan Woes
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 10:56 AM

Am I not right, Hils, that that is 21 foot shipping length? A mate of mine in Canada has a thing that is I think 30 feet internal length, 9 feet wide (although no wind-outs), and near the 6,000 lb towing limit of the specially reinforced towing hitch on his huge 4-wheel drive. If he used it on the road over here he'd fill several pages of an official police notebook!

For quite a long time in the UK the maximum UK length was 21 feet excluding drawbar and hitch and 7 feet width, and EU legal vans exceeded that by a little bit in both directions. Now the UK is 7 metres and 2.55 metres.   

While I am on here, I'm having fun with my bulldog coming out of the slipper plate. Anyone know anything about packing the slipper plate up or getting an offset toothed wheel to enable an in-between height setting on the towcar?

Subject: RE: BS: Caravan Woes
From: Mr Happy
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 11:08 AM

Try here: http://www.ukcampsite.co.uk/

or here:http://www.practicalcaravan.com/

Subject: RE: BS: Caravan Woes
From: My guru always said
Date: 31 Jul 13 - 10:43 AM

Yes indeed Richard, shipping length it is, ie. with Hitch. Being tempted to an extra couple of feet in order to have a model with a fixed bed, but finding a Bailey with a king-size seating area is proving difficult *sigh*

Subject: RE: BS: Caravan Woes
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Jul 13 - 12:08 PM

I think fixed beds are inefficient.

Subject: RE: BS: Caravan Woes
From: banjoman
Date: 01 Aug 13 - 06:33 AM

Richard - is the Bulldog a stabilizer?
We took the van to Wiltshire last weekend and despite severe thunderstorm on Saturday night had a great time. Highly recommend "Steam" at Swindon for ant GWR or railway enthusiast.

Subject: RE: BS: Caravan Woes
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Aug 13 - 08:06 AM

Yes, the Bulldog is an old-fashioned leaf stabiliser.

http://www.bulldogsecure.com/browse/caravan/stabiliser/23