Folklore/History: Irish Famine

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 03:16 PM

"You know you do Jim."
You are a liar Keith - I have never expressed any self-hatred in any shape or form (born in Liverpool as were my parents and grandparents)
I would ask you to provide proof of my hatred for English people (of which I am one) but I know damn well that there is as much chance of your responding as there is of your providing proof of your brain-dead claims of "distinguished historians" or your lying distortions about Tim Pat Coogan.
Having said that. please feel free to prove me wrong.
"You even called US "a deeply racist country."
No - I said that in my experience Britain was a deeply racist country and provided researched evidence to show that was the case - this was when you were describing "all male Pakistanis as being culturally implanted" which makes them paedophiles, you may remember, so we have no need to go any further than you to see exactly what Britain is able to produce in the form of racists.
I'm sure you noticed my emphasising the "US" there.
You wrote "you are destined to die still loathing us."   
I have pointed out on numerous occasions that I was born in Britain and my family goes back as living in Britain for four or five generations (not sure which).
You have persistently referred me as being a foreigner ("you and us") and have even on some occasions referred to me as being an "outsider".
I trust that every Anglo-Irishman or woman reading this and in a similar position as myself will note that as far as people like you are concerned, no matter how many centuries we have been and will continue to be living and bringing up our families in Britain, to racist scum like you we will always be "you and us" as far as you are concerned.
Guest:
"To state it was a deliberate policy of genocide is simply not supported by the facts."
Then you must explain the contempt shown by the authorities towards the million who starved to death and the many more who were forced to emigrate.
I would suggest you order your copy of Coogan's "'The Famine Plot' if you dounbt this;(The Book Depository has it at a reduced price, post free).
Coogan isn't the first to describe the Famine as "Ireland's Holocaust" or to use the term '"ethnic cleansing"
I haven't got my copy yet but I read a couple of chapters last week in Dublin - horrifyingly well-documented stuff!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 03:16 PM

"You know you do Jim."
You are a liar Keith - I have never expressed any self-hatred in any shape or form (born in Liverpool as were my parents and grandparents)
I would ask you to provide proof of my hatred for English people (of which I am one) but I know damn well that there is as much chance of your responding as there is of your providing proof of your brain-dead claims of "distinguished historians" or your lying distortions about Tim Pat Coogan.
Having said that. please feel free to prove me wrong.
"You even called US "a deeply racist country."
No - I said that in my experience Britain was a deeply racist country and provided researched evidence to show that was the case - this was when you were describing "all male Pakistanis as being culturally implanted" which makes them paedophiles, you may remember, so we have no need to go any further than you to see exactly what Britain is able to produce in the form of racists.
I'm sure you noticed my emphasising the "US" there.
You wrote "you are destined to die still loathing us."   
I have pointed out on numerous occasions that I was born in Britain and my family goes back as living in Britain for four or five generations (not sure which).
You have persistently referred me as being a foreigner ("you and us") and have even on some occasions referred to me as being an "outsider".
I trust that every Anglo-Irishman or woman reading this and in a similar position as myself will note that as far as people like you are concerned, no matter how many centuries we have been and will continue to be living and bringing up our families in Britain, to racist scum like you we will always be "you and us" as far as you are concerned.
Guest:
"To state it was a deliberate policy of genocide is simply not supported by the facts."
Then you must explain the contempt shown by the authorities towards the million who starved to death and the many more who were forced to emigrate.
I would suggest you order your copy of Coogan's "'The Famine Plot' if you dounbt this;(The Book Depository has it at a reduced price, post free).
Coogan isn't the first to describe the Famine as "Ireland's Holocaust" or to use the term '"ethnic cleansing"
I haven't got my copy yet but I read a couple of chapters last week in Dublin - horrifyingly well-documented stuff!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 12:41 PM

A brief study of the cottiers and the conacre system of land rental gives an additional insight in how the failure of a single crop had such catastrophic results in Ireland.
   Very briefly, cottiers rented very small plots from farmers who in turn rented from landowners. Rental to the farmers was usually paid by work, leaving little time for the cottiers to adequately tend their own small plots. Hence the overwhelming dependance on the potato. When the crop failed the entire rural economic system descended into a maelstrom.
Massive evictions took place, cabins torn down, and the landless hungry left initially to fend for themselves. The social conventions of the time held that a person;s station in life was determined by personal application (although it is obvious that inheritance of money and education effectively determined social class and made upward mobility almost impossible )A reluctance to introduce viable measures to alleviate starvation was due to the inabilty of the government of the day to accept responsibility and for fear of creating longterm dependancy. When the scale of the problem was finally realised, the measures adopted for the most part were totally inadequate and too late.
    To state it was a deliberate policy of genocide is simply not supported by the facts. It was a culmination of population growth,the creation of a huge landless class of labourers, rapacious landlords, potato blight,and finally an administration slow to recognise the true scale of the problem and woefully inadaquate in it's response.
The true scale of the catastrophe makes it hardly surprising that views have become polarised especially in the light of Independance the following century.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 12:36 PM

I have no hatred for the British people

You know you do Jim.
You even called us "a deeply racist country."
Remember?
I would hate such a people.
Who wouldn't?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 11:11 AM

a single shred of evidence to back up your dishonest claim of Tim Pat Coogan's "Republican sympathies" or "IRA connections"

"It would be difficult to write authoritatively about the IRA and the blanket protest without good links."

"distinguished historians, which were obviously purely an invention on your part.
I invented none.
I gave brief extracts from three, and your supporters provided others.
Likewise the information that revisionism has been the dominant view of historians for over eighty years.

I have not dominated this thread Jim.
You have posted many times more stuff than I have, and now it is all yours.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 10:46 AM

"It would be difficult to write authoritatively about the IRA and the blanket protest without good links."
Nobody has mentioned the blanket protests - the subject was The Famine and your claim of contradictory evidence of what has been presented to you by "the dominant view of distinguished historians" which you have totally failed to produce - either the "evidence" or the "distinguished historians, which were obviously purely an invention on your part.
Neither have you been able to produce a single shred of evidence to back up your dishonest claim of Tim Pat Coogan's "Republican sympathies" or "IRA connections" both of which are obviously again purely your own inventions.
Why do you insist on dominating these threads if you are incapable of offering honest debate?
One more dishonest and spineless lie - "you are destined to die still loathing us"
I was born a Brit, I spent over half a century living in Britain, my parents and grandparents likewise - I have no hatred for the British people, only for some of their fould politicians and racist scum like yourself
You have never had anything to add or even offer to this discussion or any other one you seem to use as an attention-seeking platform for your own bigotry and hatred.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 09:12 AM

It would be difficult to write authoritatively about the IRA and the blanket protest without good links.

I am not a historian and can add nothing more to this discussion.
We have seen that the dominant view among the real historians is that there is no blame and no cause for hatred.
Just sorrow.

You need excuses and justification for your prejudice, and if eighty years of consensus is not enough for you, you are destined to die still loathing us.
Good luck with it Jim.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 06:19 AM

Controversial means surrounded by or likely to produce controversy - argument between opposing vies - nowhere does it mean not accepted by most.
"Have you ever heard of a professional historian being refused a visa by USA?"
Yes - I most cerainly have, and actors and singers - I have even known American historians, poets, intellectuals.... to be tried and jailed for expressing their views.
Perhaps you might settle this to give us one indication where Coogan has any connection to the IRA or where this has been claimed, unless of course it is ONCE AGAIN TOTALLY OF YOUR OWN INVENTION
And your "professional historians or their proof to the contrary????
Now's your chance to make your point
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 04:51 AM

Jim, "controversial" means not accepted by most.
His nationalist view we know, thanks to your supporters, has been rejected by actual historians for over eighty years now.
Some will just carry on hating regardless.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 03:44 AM

And just in case you attempt to accuse me of your practice of doctoring articles - the rest of Coogan's biography.
Jim Carroll

Biography[edit]

Tim Pat Coogan was born in Monkstown, County Dublin in 1935. He was the first of three children (Brian was born two years later, and Aisling was born four years later) born to Ned Coogan and his wife Beatrice. His father Ned (or Eamonn Ó Cuagain as he sometimes preferred to be known) was active in the Volunteers during the War of Independence and later went on to be the first Deputy Commissioner of the newly-established Garda Síochána, then a Fine Gael TD for the Kilkenny constituency. His mother was a Dublin socialite who was crowned Dublin's Civic Queen of Beauty in 1927. She also wrote for the Evening Herald and took part in various productions in the Abbey Theatre and Radio Éireann. Coogan spent many summer holidays in the town of Castlecomer in County Kilkenny, his father's home town.[1]
He is a former student of the Christian Brothers in Dun Laoghaire, Belvedere College and spent most of his secondary studies in Blackrock College in Dublin. In his memoir, published in 2008, he describes himself as an atheist.
In 2000 Ruth Dudley Edwards was awarded £25,000 damages and a public apology by the High Court in London against Coogan for factual errors in references to her in his book Wherever Green is Worn: the Story of the Irish Diaspora.[2]
When Taoiseach Enda Kenny caused confusion following a speech at Béal na Bláth by crediting Michael Collins with bringing Vladimir Lenin to Ireland, Coogan commented: "Those were the days when bishops were bishops and Lenin was a communist. How would that [Collins bringing Lenin to Ireland] have gone down with the churchyard collections?"[3]
In November 2012, the United States embassy in Dublin refused to grant Coogan a visa to visit the US. As a result a planned book tour for his latest book (The Famine Plot, England's role in Ireland's Greatest Tragedy) was cancelled. The decision was described as a major shock and blot against United States Ambassador to Ireland Dan Rooney. After representations to Hillary Clinton, Senator Schumer, reckoned to be the second most powerful member of the U.S. Senate and the chairman of the Congressional Committee on Homeland Security, Congressman Peter King, he received his visa.[4]

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 03:37 AM

Whoops - nearly fell into your practice of not providing a link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Pat_Coogan

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 03:34 AM

"Closely linked to IRA he fights for them with his books as his father fought with a gun."
A typical distortion of the facts - again.
Coogan is a historian who does not take sides - as critical of one side as of the other. - perhaps you would like to provide evidence of your claim - no? - I thought not.
His books centre of modern Irish politics and his "controversial" views are controversial because he does not take sides.
That his father fought with a gun for Irish independence from British rule is a point in his favour - most Irish politicians and public figures can and often do make the same claim and are regarded as descendents of national heroes (as are those of the French Resistance and supporters of Nelson Mandela).
Part of Coogan's 'controversial' image is that he supported Collins and The Free State signing of the Treaty - which is in total opposition to the Republican stance.
Do you really not have an honest point   to make on the subject of Ireland which is not twisted by your anti-Irish Unionist agenda and Little Englander flag-wagging?
Jim Carroll

"Timothy "Tim" Patrick Coogan (born 22 April 1935) is an Irish historical writer, broadcaster and newspaper columnist. He served as editor of The Irish Press newspaper from 1968 to 1987. Today, he is best known for his popular and sometimes controversial books on aspects of modern Irish history, including The IRA, Ireland Since the Rising, On the Blanket, and biographies of Michael Collins and Éamon de Valera.
His biography of Éamon de Valera proved the most controversial, taking issue with the former Irish president's reputation and achievements, in favour of those of Collins, whom he regards as indispensable to the creation of the new State."

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 03:10 AM

"What are your credentials?"
The same as anybody else's who have posted to this thread - an interest in the subject and an access to the information available on the web and elsewhere.
We have posted information by the volumeful - you have posted nothing, but have hidden yourself behind accusations of "republican reformism", "fascism" and that somehow, while you possess evidence that you are not willing to share, the rest of us are all wrong.
You have totally refused to to respond to the facts and figures presented before you Trevelyan, mass evictions, a British policy of placing economic interests above those of the Irish people who died and were forced to emigrate in their millions, an ethnic cleansing of Ireland, at best, by default, but quite likely informed by a racism that has flourished down the centuries( and in this particular case – from Punch to Bernard Manning) which you have attempted to show didn't and doesn't exist.
If your "dedicated professional historians" have evidence to show that Trevelyan and the British Government didn't say and act the way they did, or that landlords didn't evict 109,000 families, or that profits were not placed above the lives of millions of people - produce it.
WHO ARE THESE "DEDICATED HISTORIANS AND WHAT DID THEY HAVE TO SAY - OR ARE THEY, AS HAVE BEEN YOUR CLAIMS IN THE PAST, FIGMENTS OF YOUR OWN INVENTION
You have claimed that it is "fascistic to suppress the dominant views of the historians - you are the only one here to have attempted to "suppress" anything with your usual 'get-out-of-jail' "thread drift" card.
Unless you respond to what has been put up here with Proof by your (MYTHICAL) "dominant historians" it is you, by your own accusation, who is the fascist (but I think many of us who have debated with you before are fully aware of that fact anyway.)
We've shown you ours - now show us yours - so far you have produced nothing but smoke and mirrors!
Some more information for you to ignore below, from (no doubt "republican revisionist) British historian John Percival's 'The Great Famine' published by BBC Books in 1995 to accompany the (also no doubt republican revisionist) television series of the same name.
Sorry I can't produce a link - it's from a book on our shelves (pps 94-97)
Jim Carroll

"Incidents like this, of course, only confirmed the authorities in the belief that the poor were incorrigible liars and made them stick more firmly to the rules. In one case, in Parsonstown, now Birr, in County Offaly, the local doctor found a woman in her cabin boiling up a hedgerow weed, charlock, to feed her hungry children. The woman's husband was in prison for debt and she had no other food to give them. Parsonstown was not in an area which had been very badly hit and such a degree of deprivation was unusual. Appalled, the doctor took the children to the workhouse and insisted on their being admitted. The matter was brought up at the next meeting of the Board of Guardians and the Chairman castigated the doctor for acting improperly. The children's father was tenant of
nearly two acres, not less than a quarter. The fact that he was in prison for debt and the children were starving was immaterial. They should not have been admitted. Fortunately, the matter was not brought up again and it appears that the case was quietly forgotten, but in the poorer unions of the west it would have gone hard with those children.
The Gregory clause was not the worst aspect of the new legislation. Under the new act, in addition to liability for his own rates, the landlord also became responsible for the rates of all tenants with a holding worth less than four
pounds a year. This gave the landlord an immediate interest in getting rid of his smaller tenants and consolidating his land. 'Efficient' landlords would do so by evicting as many of their tenants as they could, or by arranging for them to emigrate, and paying their fares if necessary. Those who did this would keep their estatcs intact and might even make them profitable. Those who did not might have to pay the rates for hundreds of impoverished tenants and might well end up by losing everything they possessed. Again, the Government s intention was plain enough. It wanted to get shot of sub-divided estates and insolvent land-lords, who were regarded as negligent and inefficient.
In fact, although there were other arrogant bullies like Lord I.ucan, and many more who evaded their responsibilities by skulking abroad, Irish landlords were often in genuine difficulties. The mismanagement of previous owners accumulated from one generation to the next. Under the existing laws, a landlord could not sell his estate as long as parts of it were mortgaged or otherwise 'encumbered' with debt, even if the debt repayments, plus the rates due on the estate, exceeded the income from rent."

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 02:41 AM

Jim, we have seen from the links provided by your supporters that the dominant view of professional historians is not one of blame.
That old discredited nationalist version was buried eighty years ago.

Your man Tim Pat Coogan is the exception that proves the rule.
Closely linked to IRA he fights for them with his books as his father fought with a gun.

He makes a lot of money from book sales, especially to Irish Americans, but no university ever has or ever would employ him.
A writer of books but not a professional historian.
Is he even qualified?
Have you ever heard of a professional historian being refused a visa by USA?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 02:31 AM

Yes mg.
The famine was a pivotal point in the history of Ireland, but more importantly it was a human catastrophe on a scale that defies the imagination.
The human stories should be told and retold, and never lost.

Grubby politicking and hate mongering should be no part of it.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: mg
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 09:47 PM

one thing we need to do is to write down and get onto searchable genealogy sites anything we were told about our own ancestors..where from, where landed, names of anyone, occupations, any stories. that is what people want and need..and often there is no information..but stuff can be pieced together and people often traveled together...like my ancestors from kerry ended up in ne iowa after working on canals..doing their genealogy i found the whole town came from dingle it seems..while next town over came from county monaghan and was very well recorded..i found to research my own ancestors i had to research cahalans, murphys and fitzgeralds, as well as a few sheehans, kavanaughs, kellys...eventually i did brief family trees of most of the irish catholic town..my comaputer died and some might be lost but i will take it b ack to dingle when i go and they can add to their knowledge because what i found was that if you got a child who lived to 1925 the iowa census would give name of mother..so we can go back to ireland with name of father and mother and find out a lot more perhaps...people have emailed me pictures of my great grandmother, information about my ggm who may or may not b4e a bridget quinn...family trees...it is all connected.

anyway, that is what we all need to do. each year the stories that did make it out get fainter and fainter...my family knew nothing at all except incorrcet information about one ggm...had no idea at least two other ggparents were famine immigrants and possibly a fourth...

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 07:43 PM

Quite right Jim.

The fact is you didn't care. And the fact that you didn't care is more your problem than ours. We do. There are many things that we wouldn't wish on our enemies. This one tops the list.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 06:31 PM

it is borne out by all the irrefutable evidence

In your opinion Jim, but what is that worth.
What are your credentials?
The professional historians, who have dedicated their whole lives to the study of all the data and contemporary sources from the period, are quite clear that your old, outmoded nationalist propagandist stories are false.

If you need a peg on which to hang your irrational hatred of us, you will have to find something else.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,Peasant
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 06:19 PM

http://cbladey.com/patat/PotatCom.html

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 03:29 PM

"Thank you Jim."
You're welcome
I bit of recommended reading from Ireland's most respected expert on Irish history to be going on with - a Review of Tim Pat Coogan's 'The Famine Plot.
Jim Carroll

PROVING THE IRISH FAMINE WAS GENOCIDE BY THE BRITISH -- TIM PAT COOGAN MOVES FAMINE HISTORY ON TO A NEW PLANE
Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2012 at 07:11 AM
The most significant section of Tim Pat Coogan's new book on the Irish Famine is not his own writing, but his printing of the United Nations definition of genocide.
"The Famine Plot", published by Palgrave MacMillan, was released in America last week and Coogan should have been here to launch it but in a separate but equally confounding plot he was denied a visa to come here by the American Embassy in Dublin.
The conclusion from his book is unmistakable. Ireland's most prominent historian, who has previously created definitive portraits of both Michael Collins and Eamon De Valera, has now pointed the finger squarely at the British during the Famine and stated it was genocide.
It is a big charge, but Coogan is a big man, physically, intellectually, and in every sense and makes a very effective accusation. Coogan has painted a portrait of devastating neglect, abuse, and mismanagement that certainly fits the genocide concept.
I mean if we go back to that time, Ireland was the equivalent of Puerto Rico or Samoa, massive dependencies on the United States today.
If there were a massive food shortage in either of those two countries, we know the US would step up to the plate, literally.
Back in Famine time, the same potato crop disease occurred most heavily in Scotland, outside Ireland, yet there were relatively few casualties as the landowners and government ensured, for their own sakes as much as anything, that there was no mass death.
That was not the case in Ireland, where a very different mentality prevailed. The damned Irish were going to get what they deserved because of their attachment to Catholicism and Irish ways when they were refusing to toe the British line.
As Coogan painstakingly recounts, every possible effort by local organizations to feed the starving were thwarted and frustrated by a British government intent on teaching the Irish a lesson and forcing market forces on them.
Charles Trevelyan, the key figure in the British government, had foreshadowed the deadly policy in a letter to the "Morning Post", after a trip to Ireland, where he heartily agreed with the sentiment that there were at least a million or two people too many in the benighted land and that the eight million could not possibly survive there.
"Protestant and Catholic will freely fall and the land will be for the survivors."
Shortly after, he was in charge of a policy that brought that situation about.
One Trevelyan story and one quote suffice.
"British Coastguard Inspector-General, Sir James Dombrain, when he saw starving paupers, ordered his subordinates to give free food handouts. For his attempts to feed the starving, Dombrain was publicly rebuked by Trevelyan…"
The Trevelyan quote is
"The real evil with which we have to contend is not the physical evil of the Famine but the moral evil of the selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the people."
Tim Pat Coogan has done an enormous service with this book.
Read it and weep.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 02:26 PM

Thank you Jim.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 01:21 PM

"....is the nationalist narrative where the famine was used as a propaganda weapon"
No, it is borne out by all the irrefutable evidence (at least you have made no attempts to refute it) that has been put before you.
It is borne out by Trevelyan's (the man responsible for distributing famine relief) statement that the famine was God's punishment:

"In the 21st Century there are still people who believe the country to be under some sort of national judgement. This is the stuff of the 1840s. Charles Trevelyan, Assistant Secretary at the British Treasury during the years of the famine wrote:
The judgement of God sent the calamity to teach the Irish a lesson, that calamity must not be too much mitigated. …The real evil with which we have to contend is not the physical evil of the Famine, but the moral evil of the selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the people.
Trevelyan saw the famine as punishment for a failing in the national character. Protestant evangelist Edward Nangle saw the famine as divine punishment for much more specific actions:"
http://forthefainthearted.com/2013/02/12/irelands-punishment/

It is also in line with the fact that the Government stood by and allowed British landowners to evict 109,000 families.

"Eviction
Landlords were responsible for paying the rates of every tenant who paid less than £4 in yearly rent. Landlords whose land was crowded with poorer tenants were now faced with large bills. They began clearing the poor tenants from their small plots, and letting the land in larger plots for over £4 which then reduced their debts. In 1846, there had been some clearances, but the great mass of evictions came in 1847.[79] According to James S. Donnelly Jr, it is impossible to be sure how many people were evicted during the years of the famine and its immediate aftermath. It was only in 1849 that the police began to keep a count, and they recorded a total of almost 250,000 persons as officially evicted between 1849 and 1854.[80]
Donnelly considered this to be an underestimate, and if the figures were to include the number pressured into "voluntary" surrenders during the whole period (1846–1854) the figure would almost certainly exceed half a million persons.[81] While Helen Litton says there were also thousands of "voluntary" surrenders, she notes also that there was "precious little voluntary about them." In some cases, tenants were persuaded to accept a small sum of money to leave their homes, "cheated into believing the workhouse would take them in."[79]
West Clare was one of the worst areas for evictions, where landlords turned thousands of families out and demolished their derisory cabins. Captain Kennedy in April 1848 estimated that 1,000 houses, with an average of six people to each, had been levelled since November.[82] The Mahon family, Strokestown House alone in 1847 evicted 3,000 people, and according to John Gibney were still able to dine on lobster soup.[83]
After Clare, the worst area for evictions was County Mayo, accounting for 10% of all evictions between 1849 and 1854. The Earl of Lucan, who owned over 60,000 acres (240 km2) was among the worst evicting landlords. He was quoted as saying 'he would not breed paupers to pay priests'. Having turned out in the parish of Ballinrobe over 2,000 tenants alone, the cleared land he then used as grazing farms.[84] In 1848, the Marquis of Sligo owed £1,650 to Westport Union; he was also an evicting landlord, though he claimed to be selective, saying he was only getting rid of the idle and dishonest. Altogether, he cleared about 25% of his tenants.[85]
According to Litton, evictions might have taken place earlier but for fear of the secret societies. However they were now greatly weakened by the Famine. Revenge still occasionally took place, with seven landlords being shot, six fatally, during the autumn and winter of 1847. Ten other occupiers of land, though without tenants, were also murdered, she says.[86]
Lord Clarendon, alarmed that this might mean rebellion, asked for special powers. Lord John Russell was not sympathetic to this appeal. Lord Clarendon believed that the landlords themselves were mostly responsible for the tragedy in the first place, saying "It is quite true that landlords in England would not like to be shot like hares and partridges...but neither does any landlord in England turn out fifty persons at once and burn their houses over their heads, giving them no provision for the future." The Crime and Outrage Act was passed in December 1847 as a compromise and additional troops were sent to Ireland.[87]
Under the notorious Gregory clause, described by Donnelly as a "vicious amendment to the Irish poor law, named after William H. Gregory, M.P.[fn 6] and commonly known as the quarter-acre clause, provided that no tenant holding more than a quarter-acre of land would be eligible for public assistance either in or outside the workhouse. This clause had been a successful Tory amendment to the Whig poor-relief bill which became law in early June 1847, where its potential as an estate-clearing device was widely recognised in parliament, though not in advance.[88] At first the poor law commissioners and inspectors viewed the clause as a valuable instrument for a more cost-effective administration of public relief, but the drawbacks soon became apparent, even from an administrative perspective. They would soon view them as little more than murderous from a humanitarian perspective. According to Donnelly it became obvious that the quarter-acre clause was "indirectly a death-dealing instrument."[89]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)

It is also in line with the fact that the British Government placed market interests above the lives of the Irish people, allowing them to starve to death rather than affect the profits from the sale of grain.
You have been given all this information yet you still refuse to respond to it

You have called those who have produced all these facts "revisionists" despite the fact that the claims have been supported by indesputable proof, yet you refuse to respond to any of it - doesn't come any more revisionist than that.
You accuse me of being a fascist yet you continue on this thread to support actions that can only described as deliberate genocide - doesn't come any more fascistic than that.
"You would suppress the dominant views of historians."
This is not the "dominant" view of historians you have confessed to only dredging up two examples, yet you have been given dozens of examples to the contrary - all by British historians or by contemporary statements of people involved in the consequences of the famine.
Your reutation of supporting actions like these continues to grow with your single-handedly (you have no support here) dominating yet another thread in support to mass murderers involved in State terrorism.
I have no doubt whatever that you will continue to respond to these facts as you have in the past - which is both "revisionist" and "fascistic"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 07:46 AM

No Keith.

The amazing success of the Industrial Revolution in Britain was made possible by the harshest, cruelest exploitation of the lower class imaginable. Yet, this man barely acknowledges their contribution when forming his theory of affluence and claims further that once the surplus population of common laborers was reduced, society was much improved because:

"Thrift, prudence, negotiation and hard work were becoming values for communities that previously had been spendthrift, impulsive, violent and leisure loving," Dr. Clark writes.

Clark frames this as "downward mobility," and claims the lower class was ultimately replaced by better stock with the sterling qualities listed above. No sir.

While it's possible that as the upper classes propelled enough peasants to their deaths, there was some "downward mobility," I would suggest that this wouldn't be voluntary but rather the result of a downward push from above. Who would willingly downgrade from a middle class profession (lawyer, doctor, teacher, clergy, clerk, accountant, banker, businessman, public administrator) to common laborer or one of the many occupations in which they would actually have to work hard? Hell, no. And does he do the Brits justice? Hell, no.

It is far more likely that thrift, prudence, negotiation and work ethic were instilled into the working class by the MIDDLE and upper classes in the interests of benefitting themselves. They literally molded the working class. Did that hurt?

Nah. It didn't hurt one bit. The rest of you are crybabies. Live with it.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 05:20 AM

I am not qualified to judge, but from your review I am sure he is excellent in his field.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 02:37 PM

Out of curiosity Keith, what do you think of this historian?

Gregory Clark was born in Scotland, attended Cambridge and Harvard and now teaches at the University of California. He's written a few books. This is a review of one of them:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/07/science/07indu.html?pagewanted=print&_r=0

You might think this is a thread drift but I think of it as the starting point of the saga that led up to the famine.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 12:02 PM

I know you really believe it SJL.
I am sure you are a decent, honest person.
You believe a lie, not according to me, but according to the profession of historians who have dedicated their whole lives to uncovering the truth of this.
You believe a lie pedalled by fanatical nationalists for their own political purposes.
It has been exposed as a lie for more than eighty years, but it is perpetuated and fed to each new generation to sustain the hatred that is the blight that now afflicts the land.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 10:40 AM

Sorry Allan with ll :-)

Keith, I really do believe that it was the position of Britain at the time that the Irish were an inferior people and that it was better to let them starve than to help them. As someone pointed out above, the same bigotry was waiting for them when they arrived in America.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 09:55 AM

In any case, Alan, you gave me 3 things to look up the other day- crivvens, breakie and this guy:

http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/news/home-news/famine-myth-warning-by-top-h

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 05:13 AM

From JTT's "short piece."
The first attack of phytophthera infestans occurred while Sir Robert
Peel was prime minister. Peel had personal experience of dealing
with famine in Ireland, and took forceful measures to prevent excess
mortality in 1845/6. These included public works and the ....

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 05:07 AM

There is only one version of the horror and unspeakable suffering.

Your statement, " the Irish were an inferior race that should be allowed to starve so there'd be fewer of us." is the nationalist narrative where the famine was used as a propaganda weapon, and generations of Irish schoolchildren have been brainwashed with it.

That is the version of history that was exclusively given in this thread, apart from my 3 short extracts, even though historians have recognised for over eighty years now that it is false.

And look at how angry it has made some of you just to have the accepted version of history just briefly referred to.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 04:44 AM

(Unclear - that Fynes Morrison description was one of the earlier famines, in 1617; there had been a series of famines in Ireland since the invasions, caused deliberately as a weapon of war.)

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 04:42 AM

Good coverage there by Allen Conn.

I should clarify - I'm not at all saying that the famine in Scotland was not a terrible one - it's a sensitive subject in Scotland, I know, because the massive clearances of tenants, to be replaced by more profitable and compliant sheep, were done by "our own" rather than by the hated government in Britain.

No, I don't give "the nationalist version" of anything; I give the human version.

There were two groups of real heroes in the Irish Famine: the Quakers and the Choctaw people.

The Quakers, meticulous and wary of groupthink, made studies of the situation and did what they could to rectify it, setting up soup kitchens where people could get food without any requirement to betray their own sect, and buying nets and licences for the starving fishing families of the Claddagh, for instance. They made a study of fishing conditions and revealed that the normally rich fish stocks off the west coast of Ireland had moved due to climatic changes and the seas were virtually empty.

The Choctaw collected a large fund and sent it to buy food for the starving, an action which has led to continued links to this day.

Others internationally helped; in one case an Indian maharajah, whose name escapes me right now, was about to send a good chunk of money when he was quietly taken aside and asked to send less - his donation was much larger than Queen Victoria's, and she would have been embarrassed, though starvation (http://espressostalinist.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/famine.gif) was possibly more embarrassing for those without food... Fynes Morrison's description of three children "all eating and gnawing with their teeth the entrails of their dead mother" is typical of the reports. But maybe this is just the nationalist viewpoint, and it was rather nice really.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 02:44 AM

"aid was rushed in from London to support the hungry Scots."

This idea that London rushed to help the starving Scots is simply not what I've read from Scottish historians and I read a lot of Scottish history. In fact if anything the attitude from the UK central gvt if anything hindered the aid programme in Scotland.

First of all things were easier in Scotland as compared with Ireland far fewer people were in danger from starvation. The famine area was largely restricted to the Northern Isles, the Western Isles and the western seaboard of the Highlands. The emergency simply wasn't as overwhelming.

Devine in his "The Scottish Nation 1700-2000" makes various points. Although there was aid from the central Scottish authorities the bulk of the aid programme was set up and run by three institutions. That is the Free Church of Scotland as well as the Edinburgh and Glasgow Relief Committees. Devine makes the point that Scotland was a booming economy and was better placed to help itself than Ireland was.

Likewise there was not the gap between rulers and ruled that existed in Ireland. Ireland was run by the Protestant Anglo-Irish elite – who differed from the bulk of the population on ethnic (for want of a better word) and religious lines to most of the population. The Scottish churches, ruling elite and landlords etc were for the most part native. Likewise Devine says, contrary to what I'd stated, that many of the estates in the effected areas had been sold to industrialists etc mainly from the Scottish Lowlands but he adds that this turned out not to be detrimental as far as the famine went. These landlords were simply richer and more able to help their starving tenants. I don't know how bad a landlord would need to be before reprimanded by the central authorities for neglect but according to Devine only 14% of Scottish landlords were reprimanded for not doing enough. Reading between the lines it suggests the percentage in Ireland would be far higher.

The main point though is to the idea of aid flooding in from London. There was some initial aid from Scottish bodies from within gvt but this was dwarved by the three institutions already mentioned especially the Free Church's programme. When later in the emergency the UK central gvt became more deeply involved it was detrimental to the aid effort. Not because they wanted Scots to starve but because of their obsession with laissez-faire economics and the idea that receiving from charity would breed indolence. Remember this was the age of the workhouses. Trevelyan who seemed to have the bigoted attitude that the Celt was naturally idle wrote "Next to allowing the people to die of hunger, the greatest evil that could happen would be their being habituated to depend upon public charity" The outcome was the imposition of the 'destitution test' where aid would no longer simply be given out. Instead a whole days work would need to be done prior to receiving aid and it was no longer given out on a daily basis. An elaborate bureaucracy was set up to impose the new approach. The aid organisations in Scotland protested against the new impositions and the Free Church itself called them 'systemised starvation' but they were basically enforced through the later years of 1848 and 1849. Devine describes it as transforming what was initially within Scotland a great philanthropic endeavour into an ideological crusade to reform a population represented as inadequate and in need of improvement.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 01:45 AM

JTT I did believe you were a fake troll.
Sorry.
Insult?
Believing you to be a troll I dismissed what you wrote with excess of contempt.
Sorry.
(I have been called racist, ultra-right arsehole by Jim!)

You gave the Nationalist version of the Irish famine in your post, but you have just linked to a piece that puts almost no blame on Britain.
It is revisionist.
I did not comment on that but disputed your claim, "Scottish farms were struck by blight during some of the years when the Great Hunger was ravaging Ireland (1845-50 roughly), but the policy was quite different; aid was rushed in from London to support the hungry Scots."

Do you stand by that and will you support that statement?

I am not at all "impassioned" as you say.
I just saw the thread dominated by the discredited and outmoded nationalist version of history and gave three very brief extracts that reflect the revisionist view that has been the dominant view of historians these last eighty years.

Do you think I was wrong to do that?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 07:07 PM

Here's a short piece on the famine of the 1840s/50s; if you'd like to go a little deeper into the subject, here's a contemporary book by a tourist.
Yes, that was the real me posting about the famine in Scotland. I wasn't there at the time; that's what historians say - maybe they're wrong, who knows. I wouldn't be as impassioned about it as Keith. It's a long time ago; my great-grandmother was orphaned by it at the age of two when her father, a rector, died of one of the various forms of Famine Fever, and the results redounded through our family, but not enough for me to insult anyone over it.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 11:39 AM

SJL sorry the guest was me. No the post was an addition to and a correction to some of the points i made and was in reply to a post further up suggesting that London helped the Scots during the famine. So it was on topic. The famine did take place this side of the Irish Sea too and of course comparisons between the two famine areas are relevant. It was a long post which I completed and submitted and for some reason it failed to show on the thread. Will cut and paste to a word document in future when doing lost posts as it was annoying. Been kind of busy all day since but will get back to it at some point :-)

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 06:22 AM

GUEST, are you sure you didn't cut your big post out of this thread and paste it elsewhere after noticing that it wasn't really about the Irish Famine at all but rather about the fate of the British peasants during the Industrial Revolution?

Just checking :-)

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 05:18 AM

Only one is given as being from Punch and therefor English, and it is not racist.
Here is the link again for anyone to check.
http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2008/10/06/negative-stereotypes-of-the-irish/

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 05:10 AM

Punch, from where at least four of those cartoons were taken, was an English magazine. There are plenty more like that where they came from.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 04:30 AM

Crivvens I did a big post to amend and correct some of my post above after doing a bit of reading Devine over breakie and for some reason it ain't showing! should have cut and pasted to save it:-)

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 04:11 AM

"the british empire and it's laissez faire philosophy was one of the great evils of the history of mankind and spawned the greater evil of the present " free enterprise capitalist" empire of america. they want freedom to pillage the world and ignore the cost to others."

Thank you Ollaimh. I don't think I've ever heard it put so eloquently. I did I know that bit of Canadian history, however, it doesn't surprise me.

Now, was it all laissez faire -or did the British have a special contempt for the Irish?

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 04:03 AM

Anybody who attempts to excuse the wiping out of a million people and the driving out of 109,000 families to starve to death or die of cholera because they were unable to pay their rent is as right-wing as it comes.

I agree.
What has that to do with me?

"All I have done is provide 3 short extracts from 3 revisionist historians."
That is your total input to this discussion - nothing else.

That is true Jim, and you say I should not have, because you do not like it.
You would suppress the dominant views of historians.
That is as fascist as it comes.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 03:46 AM

You've been given a link to this and have chosen to ignore it - let's see if you do any better this time
Jim Carroll

POLITICAL INERTIA
A child digs for potatoes with her bare hands ©Before examining this issue of ideology in the 1840s and 1850s, however, we should review what the British government might have done to mitigate the natural catastrophe arising from repeated ravages of potato blight..
First, the government might have prohibited the export of grain from Ireland, especially during the winter of 1846-47 and early in the following spring, when there was little food in the country and before large supplies of foreign grain began to arrive. Once there was sufficient food in the country (imported Indian corn or maize), from perhaps the beginning of 1848, the government could have taken steps to ensure that this imported food was distributed to those in greatest need. Second, the government could have continued its so-called soup-kitchen scheme for a much longer time. It was in effect for only about six months, from March to September 1847. As many as three million people were fed daily at the peak of this scheme in July 1847. The scheme was remarkably inexpensive and effective. It should not have been dismantled after only six months and in spite of the enormous harvest deficiency of 1847.
Third, the wages that the government paid on its vast but short-lived public works in the winter of 1846-47 needed to be much higher if those toiling on the public works were going to be able to afford the greatly inflated price of food. Fourth, the poor-law system of providing relief, either within workhouses or outside them, a system that served as virtually the only form of public assistance from the autumn of 1847 onwards, needed to be much less restrictive. All sorts of obstacles were placed in the way, or allowed to stand in the way, of generous relief to those in need of food. This was done in a horribly misguided effort to keep expenses down and to promote greater self-reliance and self-exertion among the Irish poor.
Fifth, the government might have done something to restrain the ruthless mass eviction of families from their homes, as landlords sought to rid their estates of pauperized farmers and labourers. Altogether, perhaps as many as 500,000 people were evicted in the years from 1846 to 1854. The government might also have provided free passages and other assistance in support of emigration to North America - for those whose personal means made this kind of escape impossible.
Last, and above all, the British government should have been willing to treat the famine crisis in Ireland as an imperial responsibility and to bear the costs of relief after the summer of 1847. Instead, in an atmosphere of rising 'famine fatigue' in Britain, Ireland at that point and for the remainder of the famine was thrown back essentially on its own woefully inadequate resources.
DOCTRINES OF INACTION
Ruined cottage on the site of a famine eviction, Connemara, Galway ©What, then, were the ideologies that held the British political élite and the middle classes in their grip, and largely determined the decisions not to adopt the possible relief measures outlined above? There were three in particular-the economic doctrines of laissez-faire, the Protestant evangelical belief in divine Providence, and the deep-dyed ethnic prejudice against the Catholic Irish to which historians have recently given the name of 'moralism'.
THE IDEA OF FEEDING ...A LARGE PROPORTION OF THE IRISH POPULATION VIOLATED ...THE WHIG'S CHERISHED NOTIONS.
Laissez-faire, the reigning economic orthodoxy of the day, held that there should be as little government interference with the economy as possible. Under this doctrine, stopping the export of Irish grain was an unacceptable policy alternative, and it was therefore firmly rejected in London, though there were some British relief officials in Ireland who gave contrary advice.
The influence of the doctrine of laissez-faire may also be seen in two other decisions. The first was the decision to terminate the soup-kitchen scheme in September 1847 after only six months of operation. The idea of feeding directly a large proportion of the Irish population violated all of the Whigs' cherished notions of how government and society should function. The other decision was the refusal of the government to undertake any large scheme of assisted emigration. The Irish viceroy actually proposed in this fashion to sweep the western province of Connacht clean of as many as 400,000 pauper smallholders too poor to emigrate on their own. But the majority of Whig cabinet ministers saw little need to spend public money accelerating a process that was already going on 'privately' at a great rate.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/victorians/famine_01.shtml

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 03:38 AM

"Ultra-right"
Anybody who attempts to excuse the wiping out of a million people and the driving out of 109,000 families to starve to death or die of cholera because they were unable to pay their rent is as right-wing as it comes.
Don't forget we have been here before with your defence of the perpetrators of a cold blooded massacre of unarmed refugees.
You have now firmly established what you are Keith - live with it.
The arguments regarding the role of the British Government have been shown here over and over again, not by "revisionist" or any other kind of historical analysis, but by contemporary documents, official records and by the actual words of the perpetrators WHICH YOU CONTINUE TO REFUSE TO RESPOND TO
You accuse people of accepting "revisionist history"
Revisionism is when you distort or ignore the facts in order to present a personal agenda - you and David Irving do it all the time.
You have been given dozens upon dozens of facts here - regarding the documented actions of the British government, establishment and the landed gentry, about the persistent racist attitude of the British towards the Irish, about business interests being placed above the death of millions.
YOU HAVE NEVER ONCE REFERRED TO THE EVICTIONS BY ENGLISH LANDLORDS, THOUGH I HAVEN'T THE SLIGHTEST DOUBT THAT, HAD YOU DONE SO, YOU WOULD HAVE DEFENDED THEM - THAT'S WHAT YOU ULTRA-RIGHT FLAG-WAGGERS DO
Answer the facts that you have been given and stop hiding behind accusations of "revisionist history"
Address the facts and figures.
"All I have done is provide 3 short extracts from 3 revisionist historians."
That is your total input to this discussion - nothing else.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 03:34 AM

Thank you.
That is also my understanding.
That is why I said,
All shite.
No evidence.
No truth.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 03:22 AM

As per the conditions in Scotland I admit to being no expert but I do read a fair bit of Scottish history and the idea that the severity was dimisnhed because the help flooded in from London just isn't what I've read. The UK was far less centralised in the 19thC than it came to be in the 20th so Scots were basically in charge over home affairs. The same laissez-faire attitude existed at the start of the crisis in Scotland with road building etc going on and the idea of giving food freely was frowned upon. Though bad enough the consequences weren't as drastic as in Ireland for, according to the historians, various reasons. Firstly the sheer scale of the problem was less being largely confined to parts of the Highlands; the Scottish churches and charities moved reasonably quickly; and for the most part the Highland landlords (even if they were anglicised and probably at least semi-absent) were from the native stock and not as disassociated from the people suffering than was the case in the Ireland where the landlords were largely from the Anglo-Irish Protestant ascendency. The Scottish ruling class, the landlords in question and the Church of Scotland were basically homegrown and native whereas the equivilents in Ireland largely were not. So Scots themselves were in a better position to help their own!!

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 01:12 AM

Jim
you are dominating a thread with yourultra-right propaganda.

I am not right wing and if you can find any such here I will quit at once.

opposition to your disgustingly racist views

I do not have racist views, and if you can find any such I will quit at once.

"The person called Keith A. "
Peace bro' - you need to remember that the A stands for Arsehole
Jim Carroll

Your bro' gave us a link.
That link gave us "The arguments regarding the role of the British government are not sustainable." and told us that " Revisionism has dominated Irish historiography since the 1930s, and more intensely since the 1960s."

All I have done is provide 3 short extracts from 3 revisionist historians.
Since that is the dominant view of historians and has been for over 80 years, that seemed a reasonable thing to do.

Please explain clearly why the dominant views of historians should not be even considered, and why you want them suppressed.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 12:48 AM

McG.
Most of the cartons on the page were in fact from England,

Of the ten cartoons, only one is English and it is not racist.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: mg
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 09:42 PM

they said you could walk across the skeletons on the bottom of the Atlantic...

whoever else is Irish..did you not grow up with the idea that it would come again and know who was Irish and who wasn't? I always felt that..that it was a living thing that would return. and it is said to have come in on a terrible smelly fog...I have an idea that that is why so many Irish want shamrocks on their business signs etc..something to ward it off..of course then it would just announce that you were irish but the famine knew it anyway. some sort of passover symbol.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 07:36 PM

"hat is an example of racist contempt for the Irish in USA."
You've selected one link and totally ignored the others
You have still not commented on the on the "God's vengeance" statement from the man who was responsible for distributing the Famine relief.
You have totally ignored the fact that anti-Irish racism thrived in Britain right up the the passing of legislation made it illegal - and even then our 'popular entertainment' still had morons like Bernard Manning and Jim Davison.
Whenever you make one of your mindless statements you move on to the next one and refuse to acknowledge that you have painted yourself into a corner.   
"So, Grumpy and Jim, Revisionism is the "dominant" view among historians, and has been for decades."
You have been presented with contemporary statements over and over again - these are not "revisionist" (do you know what the word means?) they are the views that governed the actions of the British establishment that committed genocide in Ireland.
Don't you dare claim that the opposition to your disgustingly racist views are from two of us - once again you are alone in defending human rights atrocities.
Address the facts that have been presented to you.
One more try
Did Trevelyan not claim that the famine came as punishment by god?
Weren't 190,000 abandoned to die on the roadside by English landlords?
Didn't the English nobility use British taxes to move evicted tenants off to Canada?
Were economic interests put above the Irish people
Keep it up Keith - you have once again crapped in your own nest
"In the summer of 1847, in the wake of the almost total second failure of the potato crop, the British government established soup kitchens throughout Ireland. At the peak of this scheme, over three million people, that is, forty per cent of the population, were receiving free rations of food"
Jim Carroll

Glorious 1847!!
" The depots in the West were opened, but the food was at market prices. In England a new charitable organisation named The British Association was founded, and it collected over half a million pounds for the relief of famine in Ireland. The Association bought food and clothing and distributed them through the local relief committees. In January 1847 the British Government decided to set up soup kitchens, and the scheme of relief by employment was to be abandoned. The Irish Poor Law was to be changed, so that distressed persons were to be classed as paupers. Therefore persons not inmates of a workhouse would get no food, but a scheme for outdoor relief would be introduced later in the summer.
Black '47
As we enter Black '47, as the year 1847 was called the paradox of Ireland continued. The people were dying of starvation, whilst shiploads of food were leaving the country under military escort, and merchants were making a small fortune with massive prices. The Soup Kitchen Act was preliminary to the transfer of the distressed to the Poor Law, and it was to be carried out mainly through the Irish Poor Law organisation. Though subscriptions were to be collected whenever possible, and increased by Government donations, the money spent on the soup kitchens was to come out of the rates. To collect rates in Ireland was not merely difficult - in a large number of cases it was practically impossible.
Famine Workhouse Clifden, Galway The workhouses themselves were not in a condition to become centres of relief. In the parts of Ireland which were now most distressed the workhouses, from the day they opened, had been insolvent, dirty and disorganised, and at this moment when the transfer of the destitute to the Poor Law was proposed, several were on the point of closing their doors. Scarriff, in Clare, was about to shut, and at Clifden in Galway the workhouse had actually been closed and the destitute expelled.
The soup kitchens were very welcome, and each person received a bowl of soup and some bread. Trevelyan thought that famine was the will of God, and he hoped that the Catholic priests would explain this to the people. They had no strength left and they believed that is was the will of God that they should die. The soup kitchens were slow to expand, and were not able to cater for the millions of starving people. Private enterprise was functioning at last, and the ample supples promised by Government were actually arriving, but they were useless to the people. Destitution and disorganisation had gone too far: Ireland was ruined, and high prices and lack of money placed the long expected food out of reach of the starving. Meanwhile, at the end of the first week in March the total number employed on the public works stood at 734,000, but the Government began to close them down. This decision produced terror, hundreds of desperate appeals poured in, but all were ignored"
A new terror afflicted the Irish people. After the famine typhus fever or some other disease began to ravage Ireland. The main epidemic in 1847 was of typhus and relapsing fever, but at the same time other diseases afflicted starving Ireland. Dysentery, famine dropsy, diarrhoea and scurvy were horrible diseases which affected many people, resulting in agonising death. The courage of those who came to the help of the people is beyond praise. Doctors, Catholic priests, medical staff officials and many others all contacted fever and died. The work houses, fever hospitals and dispensaries did valuable work. Conditions in workhouses were very bad. Language would fail to give an adequate idea of their state. Fever patients were lying naked on straw, the living and the dead together. There was no medicine, no drink, no medical staff. In workhouses and fever hospitals, the epidemic seems to have reached its height in April, when during a single week thousands of inmates of workhouses were officially reported to have died.
About September 1847 the epidemic began to subside, when the number of people infected began to decrease. In many districts however the epidemic continued even into the following year. The total of those who died during the fever epidemic and of famine diseases will never be known, but probably ten times more died of disease than of starvation. The corpses were buried in fields, hill sides and ditches unknown to anyone.
In lonely districts fever-stricken persons died in their cabins without anyone coming near them, and their bodies were left to rot. In Clifden corpses were burned and in other districts they were buried under the cabin floor. Too many had died for a funeral service to be held
http://indigo.ie/~wildgees/famine.htm